"Harmonium cured HM of gamakas". !?!?!?

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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Rsachi
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"Harmonium cured HM of gamakas". !?!?!?

Post by Rsachi »

I attended with my friend an evening at Bangalore International Centre on Classical roots of film songs. We were treated to some full throated and happy CM by Chitra Srikrishna to violin and mridangam accompaniment by two youngsters described in the program as "maestros".

There were generous dollops of NRI references and US buzzwords (NYT, Wharton...) while introducing Sobha Narayan (they called her Sutradhaar!) and Chitra. The programme featured a smattering of film songs old and new with Rajni, Jaya Bhaduri, Mohan Lal and others singing and dancing in YouYube clips and Chitra force-fitting those songs to Carnatic idiom with famous krithis sung in tow.

I felt it was going a bit too far when they said a Malayalam film song in Jog of HM was resembling Mahaganapatim in Nattai!!!!

The Keynote/PowerPoint efforts of Sobha were of High School standard, with many howlers. One such was this (I am paraphrasing her notes):

HM and CM were quite similar until they incorporated the harmonium into Hindustani music. Due to its limitations, the harmonium could not reproduce gamakas, and its direct consequence was that HM ragas lost gamakas and HM became one with flat notes. Carnatic music saw this danger and prevented the harmonium from entering the scene, that's how CM is full of gamakas (=oscillations) still.

Wherever Sobha may have picked up this line, I am not convinced. I invite erudite comments...what about instrumental HM like sitar, sarod, sarangi, flute etc.? How come I hear a lot of gamakas when I hear Ravi Shankar, Vilayat Khan, Shahid Pervez? Listen to the Veena Sahasrabudhe clip I shared elsewhere, don't you see glides and slides and even oscillations?
The two genres are quite different, and harmomium has limitations, but is Sobha's final conclusion about HM valid!?

You can see I am trying to get some paisa vasool from my time invested in that programme. At the same time, Sutradhaar and such labels on presenters is fine, but it shouldn't become an exercise in spinning a yarn! :D

harimau
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Re: "Harmonium cured HM of gamakas". !?!?!?

Post by harimau »

The late Sri Rangaramanuja Iyengar has said the same thing in several of his books, that it was the introduction of the harmonium that doomed Hindusthani Music.

To that I guess one could add the influence of Persian musicians who adorned the courts of Mughal sultans.

Thank God that the Vindhya range kept the Muslim musicians confined to the North. We were able to retain the original Music of India in the South.

Sorry for the interruption. We now return you to our regularly scheduled program on why HM has sruthi suddham and CM lacks it.
Last edited by harimau on 18 Mar 2014, 13:27, edited 2 times in total.

Rsachi
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Re: "Harmonium cured HM of gamakas". !?!?!?

Post by Rsachi »

Interesting, Harimau! The poor North of Vidhya folks seem blissfully ignorant of Sri Rangaramanuja Iyengar's damning verdict. Just google and see how much they think they also have gamaka etc. I quote below from a PhD thesis:
Image

venkatakailasam
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Re: "Harmonium cured HM of gamakas". !?!?!?

Post by venkatakailasam »

Between tradition and evolution

Please read the article by Shri. T. M. KRISHNA..

http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday ... e67245.ece

espras
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Re: "Harmonium cured HM of gamakas". !?!?!?

Post by espras »

Rsachi,

As you mention, and as the revered Sri Rangaramanuja Iyengar has said too (harimau), it is agreed that harmonium has limitations.

But some efforts seem to be being made to address these limitations (or, at least, some of them).

In some other connection, I came across the work of Jitendra Gore, a Hindustani musician from Mumbai, who seems to be working on making harmonium a little more acceptable and versatile than what it is.

He has made improvements to “Samvadini”, a harmonium with strings which, he says, is an invention of his guru, Pt Manohar Chimote.

More here: http://www.jitendragore.com/general_training.html

Rsachi
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Re: "Harmonium cured HM of gamakas". !?!?!?

Post by Rsachi »

I guess I was not stressing the core issue I have. Can we claim that HM has no gamakas? To what extent, if it is true, is this lack of gamaka due to the harmonium?

Rsachi
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Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: "Harmonium cured HM of gamakas". !?!?!?

Post by Rsachi »

So guys, quiz question: what does this Mohanlal/KJY song remind you of?

http://youtu.be/6HVtAQuvY6k



Answer: they said it sounds like Mahaganapatim!

arasi
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Re: "Harmonium cured HM of gamakas". !?!?!?

Post by arasi »

rAma rAma rAma sItA rAma ennirO in tilang?

vasanthakokilam
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Re: "Harmonium cured HM of gamakas". !?!?!?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Sachi: Yes, it is silly for them to say HM does not have gamakas (as in ornamentation). As a first level of approximation, HM is meend heavy where as CM is oscillation heavy. Of course, this does not mean HM does not have oscillations and CM does not have meend. It is basically what is pradAn. Akellaji has written quite a few times about the differences in gamakas between the two systems.

For that reason, CM folks hear HM as lighter when compared to CM and HM folks consider some wide oscillations (like the much loved Thodi G2) not to their liking. So be it, on both counts.

Rsachi
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Re: "Harmonium cured HM of gamakas". !?!?!?

Post by Rsachi »

You said it, VKM!

rajeshnat
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Re: "Harmonium cured HM of gamakas". !?!?!?

Post by rajeshnat »

Rsachi/VK/Harimau,
Apart from oscillation-meend mix of hm and cm ragas , IN CM we search and standardize on continuity especially on accompaniments . For eg CM has taken violin , whereas HM takes harmonium , that also means CM also discarded to an extent veena as an accompaniment .

Also mrudangam continuity and naadam is zillion times better than tabla as aurally i hear consonance with only mrudangam

IF CM takes tabla and also non continous instruments as accompaniments CM will surely die and I will surely not take it .

The packaging of violin-mrudangam(continuity-consonance) has made it far far interesting to our ears . May be a crazy idea why cant there be a HM concert with violin and a touch of mrudangam .

What i am in general fed up is boxing CM as south indian music. We have to start educating(even selling) cm as a music even for the north of vindhyas, afterall we can have a dikshidar akandam in varnasi , they will understand dikshitar krithis far more than chennai/bangalore/cochin/hyderabad

SrinathK
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Re: "Harmonium cured HM of gamakas". !?!?!?

Post by SrinathK »

Between a round of heavy akharas in HM and a round of brighas in CM, which has more oscillation?

harimau
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Re: "Harmonium cured HM of gamakas". !?!?!?

Post by harimau »

SrinathK wrote:Between a round of heavy akharas in HM and a round of brighas in CM, which has more oscillation?
You hit the nail on the head. :)

HM claims their Kan is the equivalent of our kampitha. Yet how often and for what duration do you hear kan in HM?

CM claims to have 16 gamakas, later reduced to 10 gamakas. How many are in use in CM today? How many in HM?

Let some musicologist answer. Or, talk to one and get his/her answer and post it here.

Please, can we now get back to worshipping the sruthi suddham of HM musicians? :))

Rsachi
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Re: "Harmonium cured HM of gamakas". !?!?!?

Post by Rsachi »

Harimau, do you know MF Hussain saw everyday, a few hundred shows, the movie Hum Apke Hain Kaun just to connect with Madhuri?
I am as much touched by that example as by your focus on "Sruti Suddham of HM". :)

Rajesh
Dhrupad uses Sarangi and Pakhavaj, for reasons you outlined. In fact I heard one of the Gundecha concerts with a flute and violin also.

The Sayeeduddin Dagar videos Bhupali and Jogiya on YT are pristine examples of continuity in HM...

vidya raja
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Re: "Harmonium cured HM of gamakas". !?!?!?

Post by vidya raja »

There is a 22 sruthi harmonium , researched by Dr . Vidyadhar Oke

http://www.22shruti.com/22_shruti_harmonium.asp

SrinathK
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Re: "Harmonium cured HM of gamakas". !?!?!?

Post by SrinathK »

Which, while providing divine swara shuddham, can still only approximate gamakas.

rshankar
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Re: "Harmonium cured HM of gamakas". !?!?!?

Post by rshankar »

One view on the evolution of the various styles of classical dance forms in India believes that when, in what was perhaps the first example of specialization, the naTas and naTis (practitioners of the fifth vEda created by brahmA - the nATya vEda) decided to focus on dancing, singing, or acting to the exclusion of the other two skills, the art forms of Indian classical dance and music were born. The dance form that resulted was pan-Indian (a uniform style of dancing all over India - as evidenced by statues of dancers in aRainmaNDi seen all over India) which then evolved into the various 'classical' dance forms we now know when it underwent metamorphosis under the pressures of local cultures, languages, and music - and took on newer texts for reference in addition to (or instead of) the nATya SAstra....
I am sure there is some similar explanation for how the pan-Indian music form has evolved into two (or more*) distinct forms.
[*: I believe that maestros like the late Sri Raghunath Panigrahi felt that ODissi music should be treated as a form of classical distinct from CM and HM.]

cmlover
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Re: "Harmonium cured HM of gamakas". !?!?!?

Post by cmlover »

Vkailsam
I suspect that Hindu article was written by harimau and TMK mollified it and published it :D
Rsachi
That youtube is of course Jog and some claim it is the equivalent of NaTTai
http://rajamanjari.blogspot.ca/2009/05/ ... ician.html
http://forumhub.com/indcmusic/29456.08.24.22.html
The speaker must have read it and jumped the boat :)

Again someone who does not know CM might hear just the name and claim Parveen Sultana
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUE9ztAbq3Y
and say it sounded like Vatapi Ganapatim :D

Rsachi
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Re: "Harmonium cured HM of gamakas". !?!?!?

Post by Rsachi »

Sir I daresay that TMK is up to some rare feats of bravado and daredevilry but even he won't come back alive if he goes to mollify Harimau.

I understand somebody is building a simulator to train such foolhardy desperadoes in tackling Harimau.
Image
Our only hope is that Harimau gets indigestion from Kalyana Samayal or goes fully vegan.

But I love him as he is today, and his other name is
Trivaktran.

cmlover
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Re: "Harmonium cured HM of gamakas". !?!?!?

Post by cmlover »

हरिमौत्पत्तिक रणं क्रूरं कृष्णं नवनीतप्रियं ।
:d

varsha
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Re: "Harmonium cured HM of gamakas". !?!?!?

Post by varsha »

One view on the evolution of the various styles of classical dance forms in India believe
Another view believes that just because we are at the leading edge , we need not neccessarily be the most evolved :-o :p

On a serious note , it is said that a good traveller knows that the land he visits was made suitable for those who live there.And not for the visitor.
I see a similar problem with carnatics discomfort with harmonium.
CM has painted itself to a corner with an astonishingly refined sets of rules , aesthetics ,grammar and yet ... wants to look desirable to the masses.And finds urchins like harmonium to beat
Harmonium is like the roadside flower seller - so simple and immaculate at 5 in the morning too. With a boringly-same spread on her humble basket.
As compared to upper class bouquet vendor,offering a variety ,to the accompaniment of her rustling silk.
The notes of the keyborad were the first to attract me.When Malebennur Subba Rao took us through all the parvas of Kumara vyasa's work on Mahabharata .
Or when I sat , crunched , between oddly scented brethren , listening to a qawwali . like the one in this video.
I have refrained from putting this up here for long, fearing that the video will attract more criticism of the funny looking actions of one of the singers,
But here it is ..
a sixtyyear plus old video , squeaky at times, of the best kausni kanada in my books.
dont search for the microphones .
Right in the midst of a qawwali ,they decide to educate the masses around with a bit of HOW to sing this raga , taking care to avoid straying into malkauns and Darbari.
https://archive.org/details/KaushiKanadaQawwaliVideo
Enjoy this if you wish to.
To deny the Harmonium its due - however small and humble- is to deny a piece of our musical evolution.
Bangalorites could attend the next harmonium habba- whenever it happens-just to listen to musical outpourings in the form of raga expositions and personal accounts laced with pain .
For a guy like me , who on one such occasion dropped in after attending to something related to disability management , the likeness was intriguing .
For in the morning I was taught that disability in beings=most cases- had to be seen as a normal mind with an uncooperative body. We were tied to chairs for hours to get a sense of this.
In the evening I felt that it was the same with these instrumentalists too.
So I will opt for good harmonium player rather than an incompetent violinist.Any day.
Last edited by varsha on 06 Apr 2014, 10:45, edited 1 time in total.

Rsachi
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Re: "Harmonium cured HM of gamakas". !?!?!?

Post by Rsachi »

Varsha, spoken like a seer.

Harmonium is simple, but rises to great aesthetic heights when played by a true maestro. I remember a Harmonium accompanist called "Walwalkar" of yesteryears. Currently the dusky lady who accompanies Kaushiki Chakraborty is simply superb. Similarly Dr Ravindra Katoti in Jayanthi Kumaresh's ensemble played an incredible Sindhu Bhairavi some months ago.

To sit in judgement and condemn any instrument is impressive talk no doubt but reality transcends our puerile labels.
I would be worried when CM musicians condemn the violin or HM musicians condemn the harmonium. Not till then, sir!

kvchellappa
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Re: "Harmonium cured HM of gamakas". !?!?!?

Post by kvchellappa »

अतिमधुरं वर्षति मनो हर्षयति

HarishankarK
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Re: "Harmonium cured HM of gamakas". !?!?!?

Post by HarishankarK »

I think we should respect T M Krishna's views. Any instrument which is unable to play all the types of compositions in carnatic music must not be accepted as a carnatic music instrument. Padams and Javalis should be kept as the acid test for the instrument to qualify.

Nick H
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Re: "Harmonium cured HM of gamakas". !?!?!?

Post by Nick H »

Is T M Krishna the acid test?

(I'm not disagreeing with you or TMK, just wondering why he should be the example in this instance?)

Rsachi
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Re: "Harmonium cured HM of gamakas". !?!?!?

Post by Rsachi »

Sorry folks, this thread is not about TMK. It is not about the harmonium being unsuitable for CM. It is not even about the limitations of the harmonium. :)

It is about the hilarious claim that CM pundits realised that HM had lost its gamakas because of the invasion of the harmonium and therefore strenuously prevented its entry into CM.
Any serious listener of HM can hear gamakas in their music. With or without harmonium accompaniment. :)

Nick H
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Re: "Harmonium cured HM of gamakas". !?!?!?

Post by Nick H »

Rsachi wrote:Sorry folks, this thread is not about TMK. It is not about the harmonium being unsuitable for CM. It is not even about the limitations of the harmonium. :)
Phew! :))

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