Modern violins better than Strad- The Independent report

[Rsachi]

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-enter ... 44976.html

[Nick H]

Read here at National Geographic. You can also find links to experiences of some of the participants. As you surf, you'll also find the wild screaming that is much the same as I find among "audiophiles" when something threatens their established world view.

One of the things that gets screamed at is the misunderstanding that this test showed that all modern violins are better than all old violins, or that old violins are actually not really good at all. Neither is true. It is true that it showed that whatever qualities may be in an old violin are there in a good modern one too. It also showed that some musicians, who were entirely confident of their ability to tell the difference, blind, were amazed to find that they could not. It's nice to see something like that being freely admitted.

[uday_shankar]

Indeed Nick. The following quote from Claudia Fritz, in the link you posted above sums it all up (boldface mine):

“Strads are amazing instruments. They have survived 300 years and are beautifully made,” says Fritz. “I don’t want to destroy the Strads but I want to show that their amazing properties aren’t unique. You can find them in new violins as well. The new makers are doing a great job and are making amazing violins. They should be able to sell them with pride and recognition.”

Unfortunately, the world is full of purveyors of "mystique" value where none usually exists.

[SrinathK]

The question now is whether the modern violins will still play as beautifully 300 years from now.

I do agree that the best moderns are as good as the best of the old. Although I don't have a study to back me up here, but from my experience I can say that the more and more great music is played on a new instrument, the better it's sound becomes over the years. Some instruments really do suit some players better than others (which is why some prefer Guarneri or Modern over a Strad). Above all when a violin (even if a Strad or a Guarneri) being played for the 1st time will not give as good a result as it does after months of practice and adapting. Some violinists have been compelled to reinvent their whole playing technique because their new instrument was so much more capable they needed to reinvent their playing to use it to it's full potential.

Lastly, NEVER discount the combination of the bow, the strings, the bridge and the soundpost and the skill of the player.

And not all strads or modern instruments are equal. Some are superior to all others. Before coming to conclusions though, look at this : http://www.violinist.com/blog/laurie/20121/13039/

[Nick H]

Will the strads still sound as good 300 years from now? By then, they will have gone through 600 years of repairs, modifications, etc. The "modern" violins will, then, have 300 years youthful advantage over the strads ...and there is no guarantee that either will still be in piece!

but from my experience I can say that the more and more great music is played on a new instrument, the better it's sound becomes over the years.

Perhaps. This study would suggest that that might be, if not mythical, then exaggerated!

It is difficult for a layman to discuss with a violinist: all the advantages are on your side . But we can say that this experiment was about the preferences, in so far as they could be established in the circumstances (which is important: one violinist said, yes, he could have chosen a violin for a tour, but not to buy), of expert violinists.

Being a bit of an audiophile-in-denial, I am used to these conversations, and it is really funny how people scream when their preconceptions and their egos are challenged. For people who say they trust their ears, audiophiles are extremely bad at listening! Here, we see the same sort of screaming going on. It was a test run on scientific principles, but it was a test of people's preferences: not one meter or oscilloscope was involved at any time --- and yet you won't have to look far to find people crying about how music cannot be measured by science.

[vasanthakokilam]

Srinath: I happened to catch a conversation on this topic on NPR and the violinist pretty much said the same things that you did.

May be they should have 10 or so different players who have played various strads for a long time participate in such a study so these kinds of issues can be accommodated in the experiment.

But one thing that she said resonated with me. She said strads are not easy to play compared to the modern violins. She in fact said it is a monster that needs to be tamed and different artists adopt various ways of taming them. Such things do not exist much with modern violins where they give you excellent sounds without trying too hard. I can intuitively understand that such things can influence greatly the differences in the quality of sound.

Also, it is possible that one may only notice the difference after living with both 'sounds" for a while. Such a thing exists in the visual perception we can not assume it does not exist in aural perception! ( two different white screens will look perfectly the same to 95% of the people but the 5% who have lived with whites for a living can see much finer shades of white )

So, the interesting twist here is that the listener also has to be an experienced listener of both strads and modern violins and the players should be experienced players in both to tame all these variables. It is not clear to me if they accounted for all this in their subject selection.

But I guess people are in general ticked off by the snootiness of the various strad mystique makers, this story got a lot of play in both online and offline media. I am also in that ticked off camp, but the conclusions of the study was bitter-sweet. I really wished there is a difference with strads but happy the snobbery got dented a bit.

[Nick H]

the interesting twist here is that the listener also has to be an experienced listener

You wouldn't happen to be an audiophile, would you?

Here are the two ultimate arguments: i.) You don't have a "sufficiently resolving" system to hear this difference; ii.) You don't have enough experience to hear this difference.

But I guess people are in general ticked off by the snootiness of the various strad mystique makers...

I think that most of us have always assumed that what we have heard on this is right, and, far from pissed off about, we either go along with it, or don't care. Surely the only people it really affects are budding soloists who are expected to sport instruments that they can't afford?

So, to me, either way, this is an "Ah... OK," another illusion gone, but it was never an important illusion.

The way people talk about this sort of stuff is actually more interesting than the stuff itself.

(No offence to audiophiles. Twice this week I have driven across Chennai to listen to home-built speakers.)

[vasanthakokilam]

Here are the two ultimate arguments: i.) You don't have a "sufficiently resolving" system to hear this difference; ii.) You don't have enough experience to hear this difference.

True. The problem with that kind of an argument is that it is usually the end of the discussion

But I was stretching myself a bit to see what the other side is seeing. Because, that may actually be true in some cases. I have personally experienced the "visual resolution problem" while choosing paint colors. '2142-60 or 2142-70? I don't care, they looks exactly the same to me!'

[vallknowme]

6 violins, 10 subjects and descriptive statistics No underlying distribution (to infer about the population), no confidence intervals And the study funded by D’Addario and Company . Descriptive statistics should only be an enhancer in terms of presenting the data where the conclusions are already drawn from inferential statistics. I can do the same study with 2 violins with 2 people and can give you a different result This is ridiculous. 6 violins, 10 people - something like a katta panchayaathu.

[vallknowme]

A very crafty use of the word "hypothetical" in "hypothetical concert". This has nothing to do with statistical hypothesis.

Abstract from the paper :

"Many researchers have sought explanations for the purported
tonal superiority of Old Italian violins by investigating varnish and
wood properties, plate tuning systems, and the spectral balance of
the radiated sound. Nevertheless, the fundamental premise of
tonal superiority has been investigated scientifically only once
very recently, and results showed a general preference for new
violins and that players were unable to reliably distinguish new
violins from old. The study was, however, relatively small in terms
of the number of violins tested (six), the time allotted to each
player (an hour), and the size of the test space (a hotel room). In
this study, 10 renowned soloists each blind-tested six Old Italian
violins (including five by Stradivari) and six new during two 75-min
sessions—the first in a rehearsal room, the second in a 300-seat
concert hall. When asked to choose a violin to replace their own
for a hypothetical concert tour, 6 of the 10 soloists chose a new
instrument. A single new violin was easily the most-preferred of
the 12. On average, soloists rated their favorite new violins more
highly than their favorite old for playability, articulation, and pro-
jection, and at least equal to old in terms of timbre. Soloists failed
to distinguish new from old at better than chance levels. These
results confirm and extend those of the earlier study and present
a striking challenge to near-canonical beliefs about Old Italian violins."

"On average" is a very colloquial use of what should be a central tendency of a probability distribution function. This is important because, descriptive statistics is used a lot nowadays by business people and politicians. It is OK to use this for business and politics, but not for science.

[SrinathK]

Strads and Guarneris are very aggressive instruments and don't generally produce a very sweet sound up close (although powerful). So the sound heard in a hotel room or by a member with a stage ticket will be dramatically different from what is heard farther away (one particular incident with a famous violinist had 2 friends, one of whom sat in the balcony of a very good hall and heard a divine incredible sound whereas the poor chap with the stage ticket right next to the soloist heard scratches, bangs and scrapes!). Mic-less concert btw.

I have also heard about how many Strads and some Guarneris are "wild animals" and very unforgiving of the slightest flaw (though most Guarneris are said to be easier).

Strads and Guarnerius have all been heavily modified over the years. The bridge totally redesigned (old bridges don't resemble anything that goes on violins now), the sound post thickened, new bass bar, metal wound gut strings, steel E string (and now all the modern brands), the necks totally replaced and reset to a steeper angle, a longer and thicker fingerboard and the development of the modern bow -- all for more and more power and projection.

Older violins like Amati or Maggini produced a really sweet sound up close and were meant for chamber concerts. Violins have really evolved over 400 years. But one thing hasn't changed - you don't find a violinist struggling not to be too loud - unless it's an electric.

[varsha]

Hold on !!!
I read a book recently that argued that climate was not so bad after all . And certainly not something new in the overall context . ( I read such books to comfort myself ) .I forget the title of the book , but remembered an example quoted in it , which may be relevant to the discussion here . Read on - with thanks to google -


http://www.academia.edu/2372375/Stradiv ... hypothesis

SummaryInstruments produced by the master violinmakers of the late 17thand early 18thcenturies are reputed tohave superior tonal qualities relative to more contemporary instruments. Many hypotheses have beenproffered to explain this difference in sound quality, but all hypotheses were found wanting. We pro-pose an alternative hypothesis based on the unique climate situation that existed between AD 1645±1715 known as the Maunder Minimum. This period of reduced solar activity was noted also for itslowered temperatures, which therefore caused reductions in tree growth rates. We hypothesize thatthe longer winters and cooler summers produced wood that had slower, more even growth, desirableproperties for producing higher-quality sounding boards. During Stradivari's latter decades, he usedspruce wood that had grown mostly during the Maunder Minimum. These lowered temperatures, com-bined with the environmental setting (i.e., topography, elevation, and soil conditions) of the foreststands from where the spruce wood was obtained, produced unique wood properties and superiorsound quality. This combination of climate and environmental properties has not occurred since Stradi-vari's ``Golden Period.º

[Rsachi]

Varsha,
Prize catch.
I am reminded of a parallel. The Sistine Chapel ceiling frescoes by Michaelangelo have always been documented to have that elusive, poignant tone making everything look so otherworldly at least old worldly. Then they commissioned a Japanese expert to remove the coats of grime etc. to restore them to their lost glory. He worked at it for years, laboriously peeling away microns of candle smoke deposits and weather and visitor impact. And finally what emerged was something anticlimactic even horrendous. They found that Michaelangelo had actually used garish and by current standards kitschy colours! Ageing, candle smoke, weather etc. had elevated the colours to a misty, otherworldly dullness!



The reason I shared the violin story at first was to emphasise something I have believed all along- science and technology help in continuous evolution and instruments can actually get better as a result.

We have a wonderful home example. I think Ravikiran has substantially improved the gottuvadyam. If I may be permitted a comment despite being an ignoramus, the instrument now deserves the name "chitraveena".

[Nick H]

But I was stretching myself a bit to see what the other side is seeing. Because, that may actually be true in some cases...

Absolutely right. This is just a study, not a final answer. One day, perhaps, somebody might do the study, Who made the best violin ever? Except that such a study would probably not be practically possible. So that question remains wide open

But still, amongst some of those who argue against it, I find the same language and techniques that I see in conversations about audio, religion, spirituality, wine, etc. Probably in many, many other subjects on which people take sides, have preconceptions, and make entirely subjective pronouncements elevated to absolute truths. God ...or audio cables: you could almost transplant the conversations, and they would still fit! Fascinating stuff!

[vasanthakokilam]

There is a fairly well known psychological principle that is involved in some of these cases. This is about the fact that we feel a belonging to a group and interpret the real world data from that perspective and try very hard to accommodate that data to the group's view point. We see this in politics, religion and also in smaller belief systems like 'which is better'. We see that in many discussions in our forum "I am of this camp, so I believe in these sets of things and I will look at the data that comes my way from that group-think point of view". This is deeply human and so not uncommon, no value judgement need to be necessarily passed as good or bad in general. Because it is so inherently human and defines us as a species, it is not subject to change easily even if one wants to. It exists with everyone, it is only a matter of degree. I will look for a link to that when i have some time.

[mahavishnu]

This is about the fact that we feel a belonging to a group and interpret the real world data from that light and try very hard to accommodate that data to the group's view point. We see this in politics, religion and also in smaller belief systems like 'which is better'.

The idea that our beliefs influence our low-level perceptions and values of things is often called essentialism. Here is an excellent lecture by Paul Bloom, a colleague of mine who is at Yale, who studies this phenomenon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPicL1AWrs8 It is about 16 odd minutes, but probably the best 16 minutes that you will spend today, not listening to good violin music

[Nick H]

I shall be influenced by the fact that he is your colleague.

Seriously!

Yes, that is the sort of thing that our brains do. My signature on the hifi forum to which I belong is, "The most important cables are the ones in your brain."

[mahavishnu]

I shall be influenced by the fact that he is your colleague.

Case in point, Mr Nick :-B
It takes an Englishman can come up with that!

[vallknowme]

This is about the fact that we feel a belonging to a group and interpret the real world data from that perspective and try very hard to accommodate that data to the group's view point.

Confirmation bias. Here is Klayman's argument:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmati ... s_critique

While there are many who criticize it, I agree with this statement :

"Klayman and Ha argued that when people think about realistic problems, they are looking for a specific answer with a small initial probability" - A bayesian school of thought. There is always an apriori set of beliefs that contribute to confirmation bias. Tabula Rasa is an abstraction.

[rshankar]

I shall be influenced by the fact that he is your colleague.

Case in point, Mr Nick :-B

Is Nick providing a counterpoint to Miss Eliza Bennett??

[varsha]

We speak only about wood , strings , cables , bridges , speakers !!!!!!!

There is an interesting story about the famed guitarist Segovia.One of his earliest students who had taken to a different profession ( and hence not met the master or played the instrument for a long time) was driving past a town when he realised that it was the place where his (now old) master had setlled down.

He located the house and paid him an unexpected visit . After the casual conversations ended , the pupil asked the master if he could play on his guitar . The old man obliged and he played for a few minutes .

The pupil then looks up at the master expectantly and he responds :
" You dont seem to have trimmed your finger nails today . Show them to me . Ah ! Yes that is the reason ".

And out came a most exquisite box of nail cutters and trimmers .

[vallknowme]

The Baker and the Farmer

A baker in a little country town bought the butter he used from a nearby farmer. One day he suspected that the bricks of butter were not full pounds, and for several days he weighed them.

He was right. They were short weight, and he had the farmer arrested.

At the trial the judge said to the farmer, "I presume you have scales?"

"No, your honor."

"Then how do you manage to weigh the butter you sell?" inquired the judge.

The farmer replied, "That's easily explained, your honor. I have balances and for a weight I use a one-pound loaf I buy from the baker."

[uday_shankar]

Here's a landmark paper on the "Effect of Material on Flute Tone", (always at my bedside for reassurance):

https://ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/Coltman ... n-1.06.pdf

The conclusion bears retyping (boldface mine):

No evidence has been found that experienced listeners or trained players can distinguish between flutes of like mouthpiece material, whose only difference is the nature and thickness of the wall material body, even when the variations in the material and thickness are very marked. Of course, it is possible that individuals exist whose discriminatory senses are keen enough to find a distinction, but if so, they are certainly not common. Moreover, the results suggest that even careful attempts to produce identical sounds on the same instrument produce variations that are more perceptible than any that might be associated with the material.

One player did, correctly, point out that one of the three instruments appeared at first to be slightly flat. This effect is due to the high thermal mass of the heavy copper tube, which causes it to warm up more slowly than the others. This is an example of a reason to prefer certain materials for flute construction, and there are many others. Tone quality or ease of response are not, however, among them.

.

I may add that in my own little woodwind design efforts, I have gravitated towards harmless visual "bamboozlement" (all puns intended) by way of creating faux wood/bamboo appearance of metal, plastic and/or ceramic parts through the use of of sundry methods such as wood finish Con-Tact paper, ZAR wood stain, etc. Anecdotal evidence indicates that this certainly panders to widespread confirmation bias.

[vallknowme]

there used to be a feature on rasikas where you can like posts. Did srkris remove it ?

[Rsachi]

Folks, maybe this report throws a bit more light on the original story I shared:
http://www.thestrad.com/latest/news/bli ... nstruments

[Nick H]

I thought that further test was included in the conversation so far!

[vallknowme]

this discussion overaa?

[vasanthakokilam]

vallknowme, as it often happens with such threads, we are all back to our own quarters, may be we learned anything new or unlearned something old.
This is second only to the CD vs Vinyl debate,as Nick would attest to. Especially between techie regulars and non-techie audiophiles j/k

Freel free to contribute further and continue the thread.

[Nick H]

The CD v Vinyl Debate... The 192khz sample rate nonsense... The "High Resolution Music" con... Neil Young and his "Porno" Machine"...