Maestro T.M.Krishna's 'A Southern Music'

[munirao2001]

Dear forunites
I have read once in haste, will be reading many a times, 'Krishna Gita' of 'A Southern Music-the Karnatik Story. TMK in observation, total attention, in reflection, discursive and in meditation of his very character being creative and expressive-connections and relationships of many moments of intense experience and beauty. I agree with Shri Amartya Sen that this is one of the best books he has read. A must read for all the rasikas of art music, Karnatik music in particular.
After I complete the second reading, I shall share with you the profound thoughts and meanings. I am requesting all who have not bought this beautiful book to buy to experience the insights.
munirao2001

[Nick H]

Thank you for the recommendation.

I have the book, since December. I cannot say when I will get the round to-it needed.

[Rsachi]

Nick, I am lucky (many have offered to lend their copies to me). PLUS I get to read a couple of articles on TMK and by him every week in the papers. And guess what, just now I opened the Lonely Planet book on South Indian temples. There is TMK staring at me with a four page foreward

[Nick H]

Not sure about lucky... I have been very critical of some of his newspaper writings. Not all, though!

[Rsachi]

I prefer his music:-)

[varsha]

I have read once in haste, ....I am requesting all who have not bought this beautiful book to buy to experience the insights.

“Many a man in love with a dimple makes the mistake of marrying the whole woman.Oscar Wilde ”
just joking . [-x

[kvchellappa]

Wilde did not appreciate that it is not possible to marry only the dimple!

[munirao2001]

I completed reading of this one of the most beautiful and valuable book in the history of Karnatik Music, ever written. I have compiled select '51' gems of observation and profound insights. I urge all of the rasikas to read and enjoy this deep experiential observations and insights of this young maestro, before engaging in judgments, conclusions and comments. Agree to disagree or simply keep your understanding, unchanged when you read the observations and insights not well substantiated or supported with logic.
Dear Nick, how about you? How about the other friends? Please share your experience for the collective good. With the success of such publications, more maestros may come forward to share their observations and insights in the form of books.

munirao2001

[Nick H]

No, the book still remains on the shelf here, as yet. I am like that with books: there is a time to buy them, and a time to read them, and those times may be close or they may be years apart.

I'm heartened by your response, though. I look forward to your extracted 51 gems.

[munirao2001]

Dear Nick
I secured Maestro TMK's permission to submit the great observations and insights to the editor, 'Kala Sinchana' a monthly music magazine being published by Ananya, Begaluru, as TMK holds the copy rights. If my submission meets the editorial requirements of the magazine, it will be published. I shall send you the links for you to read, enjoy and appreciate. The intention is to motivate reading the book, a very significant contribution.

munirao2001

[Nick H]

Ahh, thank you. I was forgetting copyright --- but I'm glad that you had not forgotten it!

[ramamantra]

I do agree with tmk, however, in one aspect, i.e., reg the Brahmin domination of Carnatic music. despite being one myself, I still cannot help feeling that Carnatic music is best rendered (read sung) by the musical communities (Isai vellalars and so on). Brahmins, whether men or women, don't really have it in them to really be solid singers. It's like they really cannot do what a Kshatriya does, say, be in the armed forces. Normally, Brahmins are naturally inclined and capable in academics and research areas. You cannot fit in an isai vellalar there.

There are outliers/exceptions, I agree. But, again, I'm talking of the majority and what is happening in reality. With music, they lose the first test of voice itself, if you ask me. And, to stay on, they've intellectualized music. Can any one match the voices of MKT or MS? Yes, Brahmins have cunningly appropriated the art forms, in TMK's words.

[sureshvv]

Hope you are trolling.

[MVRamanamurthy]

New strain in the Carnatic
Ref: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... ttarget=no

Americans say: New strain in the Carnatic
Carnatic music ain't broke

Assigning caste induction to Carnatic music a/the greatest blunder, by TM Krishna. Brahmins means who posses or endowed with intellect, irrespective of caste, creed, religion etc., as defined in the Hinduism (a way of life – even adjudicated by SCoI). This simple fact is camouflaged by vested interest for selfish gains. Yes once upon a time the caste system as is in vogue, Brahmins mostly use to learn and music is no exception. Music is divine. Several non-Brahmins and non-Hindus in India do occupying highest knowledge pinnacle/plateau, a notable Nobel fact.
TMK is meddling and mudslinging by diversion tactics to garner perhaps his hidden agenda, , intentionally/conveniently omitting the facts to flare-up a firry scenario. TMK should pick-up talent cutting across the caste and religion lines to nourish and carnatic music to flourish. That should be his motto, but not this way, as is being done Politics by sentiment (Division of AP) .
Visit: http://www.academicjournals.org/article ... murthy.pdf
MVRamanamurthy, Kakinada

[munirao2001]

Brother M.V.Ramanamurthy garu,
I quote TMK from his book under discussion "It is said that the modern kutcheri rose out of and lives within one community alone and is unable to recreate the composite environment that prevailed earlier. This is an injustice that needs addressing. We cannot belittle the contribution of Brahmins while regretting the discrimination that led to the disappearance of Isai Vellar musicians."
It is not really Brahmin Vs Non-Brahmin issue as made out and understood. It is about equal opportunity among unequal. TMK not to be heard, but also to be read.

munirao2001

[MVRamanamurthy]

Societal harmony none should ever try to disturb. Uttamas will do and do not speak or write.
My original comment can be viewed in this background please
MVRamanamurthy.

[MVRamanamurthy]

Respected Sri Munirao,

Kindly see the following a reply mail from a BHU Professor.

Dear All,

Brahmin bashing and Hindu bashing has become a fashion these days. Very unfortunate. As Dr.MVRM said, is to get cheap popularity. The game of grasshopper gangs!! Brahmins are ants. It is because of these ants some good traditions, like music, are intact. One should be grateful to these ants. You know Sirs, in north India, very religious minded people feed wheat and rice flour to ants. I enquired with one and came to know that ants are considered as Brahmin souls; Brahmins are born as ants (who do not have to pass through 86 lakh or thousands life forms to be born as humans again).

Sri KR has expressed his experiences and sentiments on carnatic music. Music is considered the best form of prayer/puja. DR.MVRM has rightly said, it is 'bhakti' complete devotion and surrender to God becomes possible through music. Music is nothing but 'tapasya'; it comes only after a long 'tapasya'. And, Gods are pleased with tapasya and bestow boons. Ravana did a long time 'tapasya' but couldn't please Shiva and finally it is through music Ravana pleased Shiva.

I don't have time to read Sri TMK's book; but, on his point of Brahmins 'monopolising' music, I don't agree. It is not 'monopolising', it is that they are simply they are trying to keep the tradition intact in its purest form. Thank goodness, if Brahmins are not there, music would've turned 'moosick' -- sound/mouth turning foul (this is my word for bad crowd swaying music). With soulful music, crowds wouldn't sway, crowds should rather cry with a feeling of ecstatic joy.

Whatever it is, the present day world in many ways owes a lot to the sincere, honest and hard work of Ants--the Brahmins especially in case of classical music and dance. Of course, our philosophy had been, 'sing your song, I sing my song'. Going by this philosophy, we can have both pure musicians as well as programme musicians. I don't accept if somebody criticises purists.

With Regards,

Yours,
K.N.Prudhvi Raju, M.Sc., Ph.D.,
Professor, Department of Geography
Faculty of Science, Banaras Hindu University
Varanasi-221005
Mobile Phone: 09935346553

[Ponbhairavi]

The above quotation from the book sounds impressive.I tried to look at it closer.certain questions rose within myself:
To begin with: "It is said"
by whom when and where?If it is his view he can as well say in my view.
"Modern kutcheris rose out of one community"
By community does he mean Brahmins or isai velAlar? By rose out does he mean originated from Ariakudy's community. Or does he mean that the brahminical injustice started from the time of oothukadu and the Tiruvarur trinity.The earlier Tamil trinity were not brahminiCal I suppose.Or does he mean that the kutcheris rose by itself like a plant from the earth?If Ariakuddy is the one responsible for this rising, did he thrust this on anyone to follow?Who prevented the non brahmin vid wans of his era from following a different path of their own asT M K does today?Is it his opinion that none of them had his calibre and genius?
"The modern kutcheri lives within one community."
This does not seem to be true.Any vid wan has the liberty to convene any gathering of any particular communityn and give his kutcheri there and even refuse to sing for any Brahmin community
"Composite environment that prevailed earlier."
Earlier than what? What exactly was that composite environment? If it was prevailingY earlier can he give an example? Or can he describe it briefly?Is the composite environment achieved in a mixed L-) Caste wedding reception concert?Are the kutcheris in north India or Europe , U S or Australia have a composite environment?A
"The environment created by modern kutcheris do not recreate that composite environment "

.what environment do they create then? A brahminical environment? Is the environment In a concert created by the set of accompanists, by the organizers by the sponsors by the audience or by the composers whose songs are sung?

In what way an injustice has been inflicted on anyone what is the corrective justice T m k proposes as redressal? Do his kutcheris or performances recreate the composite environment?
To me the lines quoted sound pompous but are wrought with vagaries.

The ready answer is "read the full book then you will understand".But my hope is that there may be someone who has already read it and understood it and he. may help me.

[hnbhagavan]

Dear Rasikas,

I have not read TMK's book,but i read his interviews in TOI.It is but unfortunate if you rouse the feelings such as Bramhins and Non brabhins etc.There are instances of several non bramhin musicians making a mark.It is indeed the case in all professions.It is better not to bifurcate any field as such.Tradition may be that certain professions are associated with Bramhins and others with kshatriya,Nayaks etc.
I am hurt because this issue is raised by an eminent musician.

[munirao2001]

Brother Sri M.V.Ramanamurthy garu,
I have read the letter and inform that I qualified for reply by investing my time to observe, introspect , infer and understand. I am not surprised with the statement with a conditioned mind, even in an eminent 'BHU Professor'. Let us now discuss:
1. Quote "Brahmin bashing and Hindu bashing has become a fashion these days. Very unfortunate." UNQuote Thinking and actions on the reformation is historical, and definitely not in these days/times. Expression with out checking the facts, is really 'very unfortunate'.
2. The opinion of TMK, the intellectual and the resultant discussions are honest attempt at reaching clarity, understanding and consensus for action, a corrective action for equal opportunity for unequal or the disadvantaged, but deserving with rights in the interest of society and well being, including fine arts a very important aspect of culture in human development.
3. Quote "to keep the tradition intact in its purest form." UnQuote Please check the facts. First among us the Brahmin communities itself there is sense of loss of purity and tradition due to the support of Brahmin rasikas, who constitute the majority in CM concerts for other aspects of attractive forms in music and also forms of music. Second, the actions of exclusion replacing the prevalent inclusive Brahminical culture and its values in earlier period in history and time.
4. Sir, Tradition is truly is celebration of excellence. Excellence is built on the edifice of merits, not on the caste or class contributions. I urge you to read or reread, afresh, unconditioned the historical contributions by the brahminical but non-bramin Isai vellar and Devadasi communities in the growth, development and preservation of rich cultural heritage, including Karnatic Music.
You may forward my posting/reply to Sri K.N.Prudhvi Raju, if it has merits in arguments.

[munirao2001]

Ponbhairavi Sir
I have read the book and also through my posting urged the rasikas to read the book containing very profound observations and insights on various aspects of Karnatic Music.
In the book he has given a very big list of Bibliography of his sources of study materials.
Now let us discuss, together:
1. "it is said" : TMk is referring to his sources of study and its author.

2."Modern kutcheris rose out of one community": Kutcheris pre-Ariyakudi was pracheena and post Ariyakudi is modern in terms of time and period. Ariyakudi giving the scope and standard of modern kutcheris, accepted and supported by 'one community'-Brahmins, both the practitioners and rasikas-institutional and public. Even among Brahmin and other practitioners there was apprehension on quality aspects of Karnatic Music and tradition getting affected by ARI format and content. With the great success of Ariyakudi and other great maestros belonging to Brahmin community for the modern cutcheri paddhati, 'Brahminical' non-brahmin and devadasi communities also took to the new format and contents for very survival and support. Arising from ARI, supported by institutions and rasikas, predominantly brahmin community, TMK has termed it correctly as 'rose out of one community'.
3. "Environment" is made up by the practitioners of the art form, support systems and patronage.
4. Historically a period before the early 19th century is 'prevailed earlier'. Teaching, learning and practicing the art form, in mutual respect and support is 'composite environment' of Brahmins, Isai Vellars and Devadasi communities, in togetherness in ideals, sadhana and appreciation.
5. Lack of support for the well deserved Isai Vellar community Great Maestros/Maestros/Vidwans and Vidushees, who we have lost, regrettably and we are still fortunate to have them as living legends, unsung, unheard and unrecognized.
6. TMK for reclaiming the lost composite environment, described above-Teaching;learning;practicing the art form in mutual respect and support and contributing.

I sincerely hope that I have given answers to your doubts and observations. To understand the meaning, it is always correct to read the book, the original. I repeat TMK not only has to be heard, but read and in the interest of cause of Karnatic Music.

munirao2001

[arasi]

Ponbhairavi,
With all good intentions, the participants in this thread are quite intent on speaking the glory of this book--or not. After reading your post, I just wondered: if this book were written by a knowledgeable person in the music world--himself/herself quite unknown to the general public, with a few black and white illustrations and a plain printed cover--no release ceremonies with globally known personalities, how it would have fared.

Scholars on Rasikas.org and newspaper critics might have had good words to say about it, their reviews hidden among others in a column.

There are many questions you raise which makes one think.

All those who want to guard CM with their heart and soul, do they appreciate all the hoopla surrounding a work like this? Do they think it necessary? If so, what difference do they see between this and those in the media who want to paint everything with glamor, even if it is traditional CM they are after?

You are a poet, scholar (in french too, well-versed in that nation's history and art history). I am saying this because I do not know if many on the forum know that. Hopefully, they may read your post in a new light...

[MVRamanamurthy]

Dear All,

Q: Why Hindus do not propagate their religion?

A: Maxmuller reply “For Hindus religion is like Mother”. If you try to propagate the beauty of your own Mother, outsiders see her as Prostitute. Hence propagate the values of your Mother by your deeds, which will testify the Mother's qualities (Religion).

Kindly apply same logic to Carnatic Music (Mother). The practitioners/Gurus are her children, so they should promote CM, and then by default automatically Music will get furtherance for the present and posterity. This what, I had ventilated in both my earlier postings. TMK stop talking and writing, start teaching to kids cutting across case, creed, religion, urban, rural etc.

MVRamanamurthy

[munirao2001]

arasi
Quote "There are many questions you raise which makes one think." I have posted my answers and awaiting the response from ponbhairavi.
Any person to take a stand and raise questions, should read the work, understand and earn the right to question and seek answers or write criticism with their study, logic and justification. I am sure ponbhairavi and others would do and do the favor of sharing with the rasikas for knowledge dissemination and sharing. In my earlier posting I did offer to share, in private by email great observations and insights and also my questions to TMK, if unwilling to invest their time or getting interested to invest time to their own study and understanding. I had also submitted to 'Kalasinchana' monthly music magazine the great observations and insights, with prior permission from TMK. The article is yet to be published. I am yet to get any information on the decision of their editorial board on acceptance and publication. Only Nick.H. and puru had requested me to send the selections and I have shared with them. No one else have shown interest, till now. I am unhappy and sad over the practitioners of CM not taking initiative to discuss and judge on the contribution. Rasikas also reacting and judging without study. This does not augur well in any subject, in fine arts and in Carnatic Music, when it is on the threshold of global reach and appreciation, in the near future.

munirao2001

[munirao2001]

Brother Sri M.V.Ramanamurthy garu
I am surprised and sad. With so much of written and published works on the Hindu Religion-Mythology, Theosophy and Philosophy by great scholars, philosophers, researchers, Speakers, Indologist, Institutions and self appointed 'Gurus' and including Maxmuller himself, both the question and answer was illogical, illfound and illinformed(shockingly). If Vedanta, a Hindu philosophy has received acceptance of millions of Americans and Europeans and getting more and more interested with their own variations and versions, it is the result of all the actions-written and spoken. Yes, the propagation to greater extent is intellectual and less theosophical, and unlike propagation of all the other religions.
It is needless to say, the fruits of religions is in practice of its values and Hinduism is no exception.

Quote"so they should promote CM, and then by default automatically Music will get furtherance for the present and posterity." TMK's action is promotion of Karnatic Music for informed, less informed, and in need of introduction, through his book under discussion.

Quote "TMK stop talking and writing, start teaching to kids cutting across case, creed, religion, urban, rural etc." Please check the facts before making statement. TMK indeed is not only talking and writing, and 'teaching to kids cutting across caste, creed, religion, urban and rural etc' through the organizations TMK and his diciples have established and rendering services.

munirao2001

[MVRamanamurthy]

Happy ending.
MVRamanamurthy

[arasi]

Munirao,
You are one of the scholars and rasikas I refer to, who belong to this forum. You go deeply into the matters of music and make serious comments about them. Lay rasikAs like me (they are in the majority here) sometimes do not read through your posts because part of what you say are beyond the comprehension of such rasikAs, and also, the posts are far too long for us to keep our attention from straying.

I am glad someone of your stature is so staunch in your admiration of this work. I do want to read the book when I come to India after buying it. It may be an easier task.

As for taking CM to school children, yes, TMK and his fold are doing that, and kudos to him for that. For that service alone, forgetting all other factors in his getting it, the prestigious Indra Sivasailam award becomes him. Congratulations on that

[sureshvv]

Arasi:

Thank you for being able to write something constructive in this topic, without having to mention Isai Vellalars, Devadasis and Brahmins. Refreshing to note that it is possible,

[Pratyaksham Bala]

Wonder whether there would have been this much hyper promotion if he had opted to use the term 'Carnatic Music' instead of 'Karnatik Music' !

[kvchellappa]

It was refreshing to read Ponbhairavis' and Arasi's posts. Nobody questions the genius of TMK, his service to CM or the integrity with which he may voice his views. He should nevertheless appreciate that no matter how well read he is, how much he is doing for the music and public causes, his vehemence is indicative of lack of maturity. There are no final views on anything. As for Mr. Munirao, I reiterate the point i once made, whatever TMK says must make sense outside his magnum opus. We cannot treat them as addenda to the book. I am genuinely happy about his award and I wish him to go far and make CM broadbased.

[kvchellappa]

Two of his views that I still find unsubstantiated are:
The musical format is harming creativity and development of CM.
Meaning and bhakti have nothing to do with rendering of a song, esp. in CM.

[munirao2001]

Kvchellappa Sir and other forunites
TMK has informed that the thinking over a long time on various aspects of Karnatik Music has been crystallized in his book with the objective to share his study and views. In such scholastic work, unlike fiction, author and his thoughts are the same. You will agree that the listener may not grasp what the speaker is talking, all the thoughts occur in the speaker may not find expression during the talk. Also the words written may not contain the nuances fully, written for the sake of brevity. All the rasikas in discussion are interested, obviously. Interest to culminate in understanding and judgment, it calls for either a conversation with the writer or reading his written work of expressions.

When a tradition is established, practitioner use it as a aesthetics which the rasikas have desired in their minds, until another popular imagination comes along to destroy this one, and practitioner profits from the second error as he did from the first.

Sampradaya is an observed ‘customs’ in the sequence of events; but there is no ‘necessity’ in custom. Does it contain any abstract reasoning concerning matter of fact and existence? It contains only sophistry and illusion.

Rasikatva as it goes, after all, when one tries to change tradition without having changed the nature of rasikas, that unchanged nature will soon resurrect those traditions.

When the past is put out through the door, it comes in at the window, with rasikas unwilling and want to be in the past, reveling the experience in the memories, not in the present ‘happening’.

TMK views, substantiated now are:
1."The musical format is harming creativity and development of CM"-
"It is important to note here that the kutcheri aesthetics was an urban creation."
"Karnatik music entered the new world, the urban world. In making this transition, the music changed. It may even be said to have twisted itself in to improbable positions to accommodate the notions of a new era. In so doing, the music lost than it gained."
"Just as it is possible for an art musician of the highest caliber to render a full concert where at the heart of his rendering is the religious thought underlying the lyrics, it should be possible for another art musician of the same caliber to offer a full concert in which the power of his musical abstraction proceeds with no assistance from words with linguistic meaning. Complimented by his instrumental accompanists and the wordless magic of the alapana, kalpanasvarams, tan and the tani, he should be able to transport his audience to musical fulfillment. I pose this hypothetical horizon not to undermine, much less negate, the syllabo-melodic content of art music, but merely to untwist the two strands and hold them apart for detached contemplation."
"Excitement must be the result of a pursuit of the aesthetics of the form rather than appreciation for the presentation."
"Any musical piece that is part of a Karnatik kutcheri music must possess the qualities of a pure art piece, where qualities of raga and tala have gone beyond lyrical content, beautiful melody and a fixed tala structure."

TMK finds the format with many compositions is restrictive on the creativity, as many compositions have to be 'run through'; few compositions considered as minor; few compositions considered as major; few compositions considered as 'thukkadas' etc. With concert duration becoming restricted, 'aesthetic' aspects, a distinct quality in Carnatic Music, are not getting the due respect, treatment and enjoyment. Rasikas willing to listen mechanically and also appreciate 'automatically', not making demand on the artists for uplifting qualities in the music, creativity and development is being harmed by the performer and rasikas, undemanding.

2."Meaning and bhakti have nothing to do with rendering of a song, esp. in CM."
"Bhakthi music gave the kirtana format to Karnatik music. But in receiving this gift, art music practitioners reinvented the idea within the matrices of Karnatik music."
"A great deal of imagination, creativity, discrimination and reflection on aesthetics has given life to languages in Karnatik music, where the meaning of a sound includes but goes beyond the word. In this musical experience, language is important only as sound, not linguistically. The experience itself is the result of two processes combining word, syntaxes that put syllabic sounds together and raga aesthetics that create the melodic stream on which the syllables flow. I hope we can see sahithya, a beautiful creation of sound, as part of the abstraction of music. There, inseparable from the music, it plays its own unique role in the creation of rare beauty."
"Once we respect the aesthetics of music and its demands on all concerned, it will determine how the music is positioned among the musically inclined."
"It is important for Karnatik musicians to realize that these issues with perception are not a result external misunderstanding. These are born out of our own carelessness."
You can now infer and understand TMK, hopefully correctly and better. I have made a demand on your time but with cause of Carnatic music in mind.
munirao2001

[vgovindan]

"...where the meaning of a sound includes but goes beyond the word..."

Yes, not as intellectual gymnastics, but to emote the bhAva of the sAhitya. Take for example the tyAgarAja kRti, nAda lOluDai. The sAhitya goes like this 'nAda lOluDai brahmAnandam-andavE manasA'. 'brahmAnandam-andavE manasA' is operative portion of the sAhitya. Emoting these words - notwithstanding the svaras tailored by the vAggEyakkAra - requires a state of mind - or emulation of that - which would bring it out to the fullest extent possible. No one expects the musician to attain brahmAnanda. But he should have the basic understanding as to what this brahmAnanda is and how intoxicated a person looks and feels when experiencing it. Otherwise, any rendition bereft of such emotion, is a bland diet. This aspect has been briefly highlighted in the film 'SankarAbharaNam' where Sankara Sastry tells how a single word 'ammA' is uttered by different persons in different manner and what feeling that evokes in the listener.

MD says 'sarasa sangIta sAhitya stanadvayA'. The significance of this is to be understood.

It is not bhakti as such which should be imbibed by musicians. It is the bhAva of bhakti and all the nava rasAs and their emulation tonally, facially and by bodily gestures etc. Exposition of bhAva in HM is far better than in CM.

[kvchellappa]

The dark areas in my mind remain dark on the two issues.
On the format, normally 10-13 pieces are presented in a 3 hour concert and less or more in shorter or longer versions. TMK also has nearly as many. What he does is change the order with no musical or other rationale to my mind. Or he sings an alapana and leaves it in limbo. He left one concert itself in limbo. Or he sings many pieces in vilamba kala at a stretch that it does not go well with me. There is no denying his creativity and excellent voice control in any octave of his choice. I have seen equal creativity in the artists that stick to the format, may not be the stamina to straddle all the octaves. DKJ had limited reach of voice, but his music was heavenly. If there is a distinct edge of TMK over the others, I am daft to appreciate it. Maybe, he will attract everyone to his freelance style, the artists and audience will follow and he will be proved right. I may not live to see that day. I do not understand where the urban rural divide came here, or what it means metaphorically. The Ariyakkudi format was not something totally new, but giving shape to the emerging trend, I heard. So many who adopted it were geniuses, some blazing a new trail altogether. If they lapped it up, it was because it served an aesthetic purpose, in my understanding. Not that TMK cannot be wiser than all the others, but that is not evident to me. Life is a progression. So also is art. A progressive and purposive change will strike a chord. We do not go back just for the heck of it. We would not try to become a protozoa, even if a choice were there. Violin as an accompaniment is post-MD. We do not discard it and go back to veena as an accompaniment wholesale. Many changes would have come like that. We do not dig up and try to live the life of a bygone century. I am not aware of such revisionism in any other art. I used to enjoy immensely TMK's concerts before his idiosyncrasy took over. I still enjoy, but not to the same extent.

[Ponbhairavi]

Arasi,
Thanks.i will try to live up to your expectations.my familiarity with French absurd theatre has trained me to look through words of a literary work,even in small extracts.
Munirao,
I am thankful that the book has influenced you so much that you are able to take on with confidence and ease ANY question that is raised ,to silence persons like me. May be the next edition of the book can include all your comments as explanatory notes in the form of questions and answers without mentioning the names of rasikas or )as F A Q for people of lesser understanding capacity and the young children he is shaping now.Tholkappiam and difficult Tamil literature have such notes by Parimelazhagar and Periavachanpillai.

[arasi]

Chellappa,
Thanks for your post. It makes a lot of sense and shows your sensibilities.

VG,
You mirror my thoughts as it were. Yes, it's not bhakthi that draws us to the concert halls. There, we experience heightened emotions in response to the music. We are stirred by bhakthi-filled and other emotive songs. The performer and his listeners share it in those few hours.

Bhajans and upanyAsams are different. Though they include music which enhances such presentations, Bhakthi is their theme.

[Ponbhairavi]

P.Bala,
ThAnks.I would be grateful if you can pl indicate to me if there is authentic English translation for the kuraL

KANAdAr kAttuvAn thAn kAnAn. kANAdhAn
KandAnAm thAn kandavARu.

[hnbhagavan]

Whatever new jugglery TMK has brought about has many discontinuities.Singing RTP with no pallavi.Doing only the Alapana without any following song.
In one of the concerts,he asked Sri RKSriram Kumar to play first and then he has followed.On the spur of the moment,it looked attractive.But as a whole concert,many discontinuities are seen when time tested methods are discontinued.The format of Araikudi has withstood the test of times and can bee followed irrespective of the duration of concerts.Due to several constraints in the modern era concerts range from 1 - 4 hours,although the 4 hours concert is rare.Sri TN seshagopalan on his day still stretches the concert to 4 hours.
Within the same format there were creative artists of excellence.Sri MDR is the greatest example.Sri Balamurali is another.
Sri TMK's concerts were brilliant till a couple of years ago when he stuck to standard methods.

[Pratyaksham Bala]

P.Bala,
ThAnks.I would be grateful if you can pl indicate to me if there is authentic English translation for the kuraL:-
"KANAdAr kAttuvAn thAn kAnAn. kANAdhAn
KandAnAm thAn kandavARu."

Kural No.849
Translation by G.U.Pope:-
One who would teach a fool will (simply) betray his folly; and the fool would (still) think himself "wise in his own conceit".

Translation by Himalayan Academy:-
He who tries to open the eyes of those who will not see is himself Blind, for the unseeing man sees only the ways of his own mind.

Translation by Kaviyogi Shuddhananda Bharati:-
Sans Self-sight, in vain one opens Sight to the blind, who bet their sight as right.

[sureshvv]

I am not sure "Blind" or "Fool" describes the intent totally. "Biased" may be more appropriate here.

[ramamantra]

I am not sure "Blind" or "Fool" describes the intent totally. "Biased" may be more appropriate here.

Wiser than KuraL and the translators... :ymapplause:

[ramamantra]

Whatever new jugglery TMK has brought about has many discontinuities.Singing RTP with no pallavi.Doing only the Alapana without any following song.
In one of the concerts,he asked Sri RKSriram Kumar to play first and then he has followed.On the spur of the moment,it looked attractive.But as a whole concert,many discontinuities are seen when time tested methods are discontinued.The format of Araikudi has withstood the test of times and can bee followed irrespective of the duration of concerts.Due to several constraints in the modern era concerts range from 1 - 4 hours,although the 4 hours concert is rare.Sri TN seshagopalan on his day still stretches the concert to 4 hours.
Within the same format there were creative artists of excellence.Sri MDR is the greatest example.Sri Balamurali is another.
Sri TMK's concerts were brilliant till a couple of years ago when he stuck to standard methods.

Yeah, on one hand, the equal opportunities guy and on the other, scant respect for tradition. TMK is a :-\ guy and also confusing us.

[venkatakailasam]

Unending discussions..leading nowhere.....

[munirao2001]

vgovindan Sir
Let us discuss, afresh
1. "Yes, not as intellectual gymnastics, but to emote the bhAva of the sAhitya." Carnatic Music is art music, developed from Bhajana, prabhanda and pada and Harikatha kalakshepa. It is different from other genre of music-Naama sankeertana;Katha Kalakshepa; theater; other lighter forms. How music takes the form of 'art' music? When art music, goes beyond the explicit, explores and delivers, implicit. Creativity in art music is to strive and achieve the original, unknown or not familiar to the uninitiated; not creativity of making the known, more known with idea of the performer or practitioner as subtle variations in the existing. Carnatic Music as 'art music' is intellectually appealing, and the highest aesthetics potentialities and possibilities and experience. In full realization and appreciation of the sahithya bhava, thinking on bhavam which can be enhanced and uplifting in raaga bahavam, in the realm of naadanubhavam, 'naadaloludai', beyond the saahithya bhaava. This naadanubhavam of power of pure naada/sound, beyond the power of word, is highest in excellence and uncommon, moments of self abnegation the highest state intellectually and no doubt abstraction, beauty and bliss. Aesthetics, transcends the saahithya bahava from sense of mind, manas to chitta, intellectual.
Rasika enjoying the bhakthi bhava in saahithya bhava, get the fulfillment of sense of mind, manas. This is well served by the Carnatic Music-sangita aspect and other genre of music, at par at its best. But not beyond. Carnatic music has reached highest creativity in world music, developing as unique 'art music', mainly due to vaggeyakaras works as 'art music' not as yet another addition to bhakthi literature or bhajan. It is needless to say, be it literature or music, it is based and built on the bhakthi aspect, with other bhavams having lesser importance. The rasika has to expect to experience the art music, intellectually in carnatic music or hindustani music, both being 'classical'. It is simillar to the reader seeking enjoyment in classical literature over the other forms in literature. It makes demand both on the performer and the rasika.
2."'sarasa sangIta sAhitya stanadvayA", yes significance is for the external form of beuty, 'Shreshta, Uttamottva kalatmaka sangita gjnanedriya' with internal sense of being in pure conscious, the bliss.
3. " It is the bhAva of bhakti and all the nava rasAs and their emulation tonally, facially and by bodily gestures etc." Rasikas are best served in Kathakalakshepam, musical opera/theatre and in film not in Carnatic Music-art music. This exaggeration is an aberration and part of gayaka doshas, in classical music of subtlety, but popular with rasikas and with popular performers. Rasikas comfort with ease and comfort of familiar, popular and unwilling to learn and aim higher experience of the beauty and bliss.To put it simply, the obvious feelings the rasika enjoys the higher quality of aesthetics in performances of the Great Maestros in comparison with all the others and yearns for.

munirao2001

[munirao2001]

hnbhagavan Sir

TMK has now set belief that the performer should be in total freedom, be in the present, free from the past and free from the future, to go deeply in to the choice with will to externalize the internalized aesthetics in the willed choice, be it a raga, tana, svarakalpana, neraval-all creative tools and composition and enjoy the experience, together with the rasikas. TMK after a long experience as performer, reviewing, must have felt disappointed with kalpita dominating over the enriching manodharma aspect in the established cutcheri music. Aesthetics not getting the deserved devotion. Many Great Maestros and Maestros did break away with well set adhunika cutcheri paddhati, in the past e.g.TRM,SB,BMK. Truly, the format is in the mindset and deep memory of experience, and in the past. Rasikas need to change the mindset and experience to be in the ' happening present moments' of each 'master piece', to enjoy, together with TMK. One is unsure of the result, without effort. TMK has the responsibility to take the rasika along with him in this pleasure, for the best experience.
I am with you and with many others like us, that ARI cutcheri padhati, with 'restricted number of compositions' does give the performer the freedom to go deep and deliver the most sublime music, pure and pristine, with recall pleasure. Rasikas support based on the 'merits' of vidwath with appreciation, experience is ideal, in continuum of the past masters.

munirao2001

[munirao2001]

ramamantra Sir

" on one hand, the equal opportunities guy and on the other, scant respect for tradition. TMK is a :-\ guy and also confusing us."
Sir, TMK is for equal and fair opportunities; high respect to the tradition of aesthetics in art music aspect of Carnatic Music, but breaking away with the tradition in the delivery of music; TMK is clear on his new found 'ideal' in the treatment of each creative aspect in Carnatic music, as master piece with devotion; with understanding and also with sense of mind to seek enjoyment in each piece, on its own strength and richness of experience free from the conditioning of the mind with cutcheri format and order, our confusion ends, pleasure begins. It is worth giving trials before rejection and condemnation.

munirao2001

[munirao2001]

kvchellappa Sir
" I am not aware of such revisionism in any other art." In all the fine arts and literature, revisionism has happened in the past and likely to happen and can not be stopped. Modern poetry as revision to classical poetry; Modern art as revision to classical/renaissance in painting; bharatanatyam as revision to sadir to cite few examples. Creative urge and work of maverick with realized values make the revision, a reality for aesthetic appreciation.

"I do not understand where the urban rural divide came here, or what it means metaphorically." TMK finds the change was urban phenomena but not rural with regard to the cutcheri paddhati, its enjoyment and support. In rural, the interest is with the quality of the performer's music.

It is not required to agree with his observation, insight and set of belief, but agree to disagree on all the matters of mutual interest and concern, between a performer and rasika. But hear him, engage him, logically differ and reject. Have clear distinction of TMK, the writer, author, intellectual and a maestro performer.

munirao2001

[kvchellappa]

I meant revisionism as going back to a previous form. I would like to know of some instance where people deliberately went back to a previous form just because it was the previous form.

[munirao2001]

ponbhairavi Sir

"to silence persons like me." No Sir. I sensed conditioning of the minds, pride and prejudice, condemnations and rejections, even without attempt at understanding- an eminent thinker and performer. You and every one will agree with me, that is unhealthy and not constructive. It nothing new. One more repetition in the history-literature, philosophy and fine arts. With my deep interest in philosophy and Indian Classical Music, with carnatic music as a better choice, my urge is self fulfillment and work for the others attainment of the same. I did have similar misgivings as majority of the rasikas seem to have. I took the corrective action of understanding TMK, through his thinking expressed in his book, a classic in the annals of the history of writings on the arts. Now observing and feeling sad that no discussions are taking place within the music fraternity and in its absence, rasikas are misguided and misled, I started this topic for a serious and informed discussions which resulting in understanding can be productive and serve the cause of Carnatic music.
Sir, I want to end the silence of the minds.

munirao2001

[munirao2001]

kvchellappa Sir

History is replete with actions of revisions in pursuit of pleasure. In the Carnatic Music, actions for revisions on theory and practices have taken place e.g.acceptance of less than five notes in the scale of a raaga;concert durations; concert formats and contents.

munirao2001