Interactions, Conversations and Encounters with Musicians

[vasanthakokilam]

As mentioned in this thread http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=23404
I am creating this topic for rasikas and others to post their interesting personal Interactions, Conversations and Encounters with musicians. Varsha, you can give this thread some life.

[hnbhagavan]

Sri Vijaya siva at Fort High school Ramaseva mandali on April 26,2014 did not want any speech (he indicated so and a brief exchange of words - We could only see!).

The vote of thanks however was given with usual adjectives for the musicians of the day - Vijaya siva and Sanjeev on the violin.This is post tani event.

After the speech and garlanding of sponsors,Vijaya Siva made a brief speech in which he stressed the need for silence and no speech.Music and silence go together and the people on the dais as well as rasikas are devotees of Lord Rama .He said that this practice be discontinued.He further observed that from the stage they notice several rasikas indulging in smart phones and some recording the concert with hidden devices and a few video shooting without taking any permission from the artists.

[Ramasubramanian M.K]

I agree with Vijay Shiva's sensitive and sensible comments on the need to have silence and shorten the speeches. However I noticed during my recent visit to the Cleveland festival--the artists sitting in the front 2 rows listening to performances by fellow artistes were constantly browsing the internet on their smart phones and even texting each other artistes just a couple of seats away.--especially the young tech-savvy artsites . In fact on a statistically unreliable sample--I admit -- the visiting artistes and their friends from India were more the "culprits" than the "locals"--do not ask me whether I "eavesdropped" on their texting--just trust me!!! This "connectivity" is a menace to any civil gathering!!! The practice is so ubiquitous that just because they are not "intrusive" the practice is no less rude and uncivil!!!

[Nick H]

How will those artists teach the youngsters? Respect for music, respect for artists, respect for audience: dead.

[VK RAMAN]

This is similar to mukkupodi habit by artists - snuffing is OK in front of audience but smoking is not. So artists addicted to smart phone take it for granted that use of these smart phones in front of performance is OK.

[mahavishnu]

... I noticed during my recent visit to the Cleveland festival--the artists sitting in the front 2 rows listening to performances by fellow artistes were constantly browsing the internet on their smart phones and even texting each other artistes just a couple of seats away.--especially the young tech-savvy artsites . In fact on a statistically unreliable sample--I admit -- the visiting artistes and their friends from India were more the "culprits" than the "locals"--do not ask me whether I "eavesdropped" on their texting--just trust me!!! This "connectivity" is a menace to any civil gathering!!! The practice is so ubiquitous that just because they are not "intrusive" the practice is no less rude and uncivil!!!

Well said, MKR. Sadly, a large portion of the audience is doing this as well.

[VK RAMAN]

who are the role models for the art itself - I guess first artists, second organizers, third rasikas in that order

[msakella]

Elsewhere in one of my posts I wrote that the doctor (praanadaata), lawyer (nyaayadaata), teacher (Jnaanadaata) and leader (Nayaka) are the four pillars of the society and, in turn, each one of them is ultimately shaped efficiently by the teacher (Jnaanadaata) only. But, even though everybody talks very high of the teacher, now, I have to wait and see where the teacher finds the place. amsharma

[Ramasubramanian M.K]

The Cleveland experience for me---observing the artistes offstage--in the hotel lobby or the Dining rooms or in the concert Hall lobbies,yielded some general observations(personal by no means infallible;

The younger artistes -- extremely savvy with their smartphones--in between 'surfing"--were busy trying to "add" to their social network always on the look-out for opportunities to 'work" their contacts(nothing wrong per se).While I do not expect them to discuss other artistes performances in public,I would have expected some of them to ask the rasikas--from all over the US- what is it they(rasikas) like and solicit feedback.No chance!! looking back,when I was growing up amongst the giants(SSI/ARI et al) it was always fun to hang around to hear their experiences--off-stage and on-stage--even some off-color jokes not always comprehended by me!!! The present day musicians(I should not generalise) are too condescending(I have observed how they converse with Chennai Institutional bigwigs--almost reverential- and kow-towing -whereas the NA audiences and Institution heads(save the Sundarams etc) are looked upon as a "tad" inferior in our musical tastes/preferences and not worthy of being engaged in any concrete discussions about the evolution of music and listeners.Even an inquisitve query about a rare krithi or raga would simply elicit a terse response and nothing further--ofcourse there are exceptions like Ravi Kiran who volunteer additional information to put our inquiry into context. The access to hordes of rasikas thro the social networks appears to give the artistes a sense of broad support for them that makes it unnecessary to "hob-nob" with ordinary mortals in flesh!! By the way this should not be interpreted as a lament by an "old geezer" longing for nostalgia!! I had fun in engaging the a rtists nevertheless!!!

The point I am making is that a lot of the visiting artistes --especially the younger ones-- do not seem to value Rasikas or their opinions because I feel they are extremely content with their art and have nothing to gain from the rasikas.

[Ranganayaki]

MKR, I have noticed that most artists at the end of a concert do smile politely at rasikas and accept congratulations but have barely a moment for them. They appear extremely preoccupied with something very important that is not present, often the next destination they plan to rush to.

This weekend, I watched Sanjay in Richmond just wind down, and make it a point to have absolutely nothing to do but hobnob with his rasikas, smile and willingly take pictures with anyone who wanted one. He appeared attentive and interested, on the whole rather classy.

[VK RAMAN]

"visiting artistes --especially the younger ones - do not seem to value Rasikas or their opinions" - they underestimate ( US rasikas) their knowledge and skill to enjoy. It is more important for Ardhana to highlight US local artists who are teachers too. Aradhana should Announce from time to time the local artists availability to teach face to face or through skype. That should wake up these callous Indian artists.

[Ranganayaki]

"That should wake up these callous Indian artists.

Let's not get carried away with the criticism.. It would be much nicer to just call for the needed cooperation and collegiality between our musicians all over the world.

[munirao2001]

Gurus advise the students to learn to listen and not engage in either discussions or expressions of opinions, diplomatically. Artists being sensitive, the impromptu utterances are likely to be misinterpreted. Only popular and well established artists get the self confidence to engage the rasikas. Popular artist’s confidence of idolatry of rasikas takes care of any slippage or even arrogant response or behavior, occasionally. With self appointed opinion makers all around, artists are concerned and upcoming artists have to be guarded. With rasikas, with exception, being senior citizens, artists have to convey the respect. In the past twenty years, the concerts have become events, with change in the value system of all the stakeholders.
Truly artists welcome interactions with the initiated and knowledgeable rasikas. This gives them the best satisfaction over the ritual thanks giving speeches with high praise to win their round of applause from their rasikas. Rasikas should have the discipline of not engaging the artists in discussion before the concert, leaving them focused on the performance. Speeches have to be done away with. I recommend introduction of allocated time for rasikas and artists interaction on expectation, delivery and feedback moderated by trained impresario. Critics to listen to this interaction and must 'report' on the rasikas feed back in their 'review'. Another alternative suggestion is rasikas can host dinner for the artists and informal discussions can take place during the dinner time. Rasikas should support teachers to participate and share unbiased technical analysis to give the clarity and understanding on the values of musical offering by the artists. Media, print in particular, must introduce and support 'feedback' column with equal opportunity to the artists concerned to post reply/comments. All these are part of music appreciation and enrich the relationship and musical experience. Real risks for the artists are losing the 'halo' assiduously built by the rasikas themselves

[srini_pichumani]

On this topic, there are 2 interactions with Madurai Mani Iyer that I have enjoyed listening to numerous times. The first one is an AIR interview in Tamil that I translated for CMANA's Sangeetham in 2000.

The 2nd one is a conversation in Calcutta in someone's house with a spool tape recorder running -- it is a medley of conversation, singing Navagraha kritis, comments about music, musicians, Music Academy, roping in Ariyakudi Ramanuja Iyengar during MMI's Sangita Kalanidhi year to come on stage despite ARI's official boycott of Music Academy proceedings, banter with Vembu Iyer about halwa that doesn't stick in one's teeth or palate, and what not...

I post here the translated AIR interview. If someone can make the original Tamil interview available for everyone via youtube or whatever, I can email the mp3.
_________________________________________________________________________________________

Following is a free-running translation of a conversation between Madurai Mani Iyer and an All India Radio interviewer (AIR-I). The date and time of the recording is not clear, but my guess is that it is sometimes in the late 1950s or early 60s, by which time Madurai Mani Iyer (MMI) was a very famous and well-established vidvaan with many accolades and awards to his credit, including the title of Sangita Kalanidhi which was bestowed on him by the Madras Music Academy in the 1959 music season. Madurai Mani Iyer answers the interviewer’s questions with frankness, clarity, and a marked self-assuredness. His idiomatic speech, and the quaint style in which he responds - repeating the question many a time - adds spice to the conversation and makes it all the more interesting. So, here we go –

AIR-I: Mani Iyervaal, namaskaaram. I would like to record your reminiscences about your gurukulavaasam. Whom you did study with at the very beginning ?

MMI: In Madurai, there was someone called Rajam Bhagavatarvaal… I learnt under him.

AIR-I: Whose sishya was he ?

[The English “he” hardly does justice to the Tamil “avA”, “avAL” etc which includes a good measure of respect, as well a touch of the colloquial as opposed to the formal literary “avar”, “avargaL” etc.]

MMI: He was a disciple of Ettayapuram Ramachandra Bhagavatarvaal. My Chittappaa, that is Madurai Pushpavanam Iyer, was also a disciple of the same person. Madurai Ponnuswami Pillai was also a disciple of the same Bhagavatarvaal.

[Pushpavanam Iyer was a very famous vocalist who shot to prominence in the early decades of this century, surpassing famous vidvaans like Poochi Srinivasa Iyengar, who was Ariyakudi’s guru, in popularity. But he died, whilst very young, in 1917 or so. Maharajapuram Viswanatha Iyer in his heydays was supposed to have reminded his listeners of Pushpavanam, and when GNB came on the scene, his incomparable voice was compared favorably to that of Pushpavanam !

Madurai Ponnuswami Pillai was a very famous naagasvara vidvaan who also took a very uncompromising stand on the 72 melakarta issue, decrying it as an artificial theoretical construct imposed by musicologists. Instead, he subscribed only to the 32 melakartas that are devoid of the “vivaadi dosham”… Semmangudi has remarked on this position of Pillaivaal, quite approvingly !]

AIR-I: How long would you have learnt from Rajam Bhagavatarvaal ?

MMI: I learnt for 2 years… we lived in a portion of his house itself on rent. So, it was very convenient.

AIR-I: After that ?

MMI: After that, Harikesanallur Muthiah Bhagavatar established a music school in Madurai in which Rajam Bhagavatar was appointed as a teacher. So I happened to join that school.

AIR-I: You learnt there too.

MMI: I learnt there too… for about a year and a half.

AIR-I: After that, you started performing in concerts.

MMI: After that I started performing in concerts.

[This is the quaint style I refer to, wherein MMI almost repeats the question intact in his answer. In fact what makes a phrase seemingly a question, or an answer, is just the stress. Such nuances are of course totally lost in my translation.

Another interesting aspect of this interview is the gentle style in which the interviewer slowly but surely gets MMI to remark on various aspects of his musical development, musical instincts, and contemporary musical practice. No in-the-face style, it is somewhat similar to the interviewing style on the NPR program “Fresh Air”.]

AIR-I: Can you recollect your very first concert – where ?

MMI: My very first concert… I had been to the Sivagiri area then… my father had friends there and hence our trip… there, in a place called Alavaakottai, during the kumbhaabhishekam festival, my first concert was held. Since the organizers of that festival were well-known to my father, my first concert occurred !

AIR-I: Who played pakkavaadyam (accompaniment) ?

MMI: Nattam Seetharama Iyer, who lived in Kumbakonam, played fiddle. Tiruvaarur Kunju Iyer alias Rajagopala Iyer played mridangam.

AIR-I: How old were you then ?

MMI: 12 years.

AIR-I: 12 years… so you performed many concerts at that age itself.

MMI: Performed many concerts at that age itself, yes.

AIR-I: In order to get so many concert opportunities at that age itself, you must have had help.

MMI: What helped me was… my Chittappa, Pushpavanam Iyervaal, had been so famous that people who had listened to his music would readily agree to hold my concert if someone recommended my name.

AIR-I: Oh hO…

MMI: My only responsibility was to perform well in the concert that had been arranged. Getting the concert opportunity itself wasn’t very difficult. Had to perform well in the arranged concert, that’s all. It would make things even easier.

AIR-I: Then, as you got older, your voice would have changed.

MMI: Yes, my voice changed. When I first sang concerts, I used to sing to a shruti of 5 kattai, 4.5 kattai. My voice (shaareeram) used to be very facile (MMI uses the word “kulumai” here which indicates “coolness”). Later, my voice dropped in shruti from 4.5, 4, 3, 2.5 all the way down to 1 kattai. It all happened quite rapidly in the space of 2 months. And even at 1 kattai, my voice could only reach the taara S for the highs and the madhya S for the lows.


AIR-I: A range of only 1 sthaayi.

MMI: 1 sthaayi, exactly, effectively that’s all it would speak (!) Singing higher than the taara S was difficult, and so was singing below the madhya S. Hence I was constrained to sing within 1 sthaayi at that time.

AIR-I: So you must have done a lot of saadhakam at that time to get a handle on your voice and strengthen it.

MMI: Very much so… a lot of saadhakam… practice for about 2.5-3 hours everyday with the tamburaa.

AIR-I: How did you practice then ?

MMI: I used to set the shruti high and then try to hold the taara S which used to be difficult… but I would practice this for a while… would take a suitable raga and practice D N S, P D N S, M P D N S etc, along with the proper bhaavam of the raaga, in order to try and strengthen the S… then I would proceed upward to halt on R… and then take a look at G… and then try M. I only managed to reach the M this way…

Then I would lower the shruti to 2.5, 2, kattai and sing the high notes a little easier… and then move to 1.5 kattai and sing with even more ease.

[This seems somewhat in contradiction to what he says earlier about his narrow range and low shruti at that time. But it makes sense if you distinguish between what one can attempt in private practice versus what can be produced, in a musically appealing manner, in a public performance.]

AIR-I: So you had to practice really hard to get your voice back ?

MMI: Had to practice really hard, yes… had to sing open-throated and practice hard to bring the voice into shape.

[MMI says “katthi paaditthaan” but I don’t think he means “shouting”!]

AIR-I: OK… in your career, you must have heard the concerts of a lot of vidvaans… can you talk about it a little bit ?

MMI: In Madurai, I have heard a lot of concerts of Mazhavaraayanendal Subbarama Bhagavatar. And a lot of other Bhagavatars… Harikesanallur Muthiah Bhagavatar… I have heard a lot of his harikathaa… he also used to perform concerts… in his performances, there would be a lot of Tyagaraja compositions and other great pieces… the kathaas would be very musical… heard a lot of them.

Also in Madurai, there was Nagaswami Bhagavatarvaal… he sang a lot of Tyagaraja kritis in his concerts… would not repeat the kritis he sang from concert to concert… in the many concerts I heard, I had a great opportunity to listen to a lot of different kritis of Tyagaraja, all those in vogue as well as many rare ones… he was a disciple of the Walajapet Bhagavatarvaal.

AIR-I: Karaikkudi Brothers ???

MMI: Karaikkudi Brothers… yes, with Dakshinamurti Pillai on the mrdangam… Naina Pillai, with Malaikottai Govindaswami Pillai on fiddle… Dakshinamurti Pillai… etc.

AIR-I: Ariyakudi ?

MMI: Ariyakudi Ramanuja Iyengar, yes… heard lots and lots of his concerts… so also, Maharajapuram Viswanatha Iyer. Then Dhanammal’s veena… and lots of great naayana (naagasvara) vidvaans’ performances… street processions… staying up all night long, hearing their music… been there, done that.

AIR-I: I see… what is your opinion of current performance methods ?

MMI: Current performance methods… of the various senior musicians of our time and their aesthetic… I must say I quite like it and hold it in high regard. And I try to proceed along that route as much as possible.

[ Here one encounters MMI with characteristic self-confidence, and with the full satisfaction of a performing artiste who has pleased multitudes of listeners over a sustained period of time… not for him, a feigned nostalgia for a bygone, “golden”, era.]

AIR-I: What is your opinion regarding shruti ?

MMI: You mean setting an aadhaara shruti… OK… it should be set such that the taara S is easy to reach… not too easy however… otherwise it would “float”. (mithakkum)… should not be too easy… if you hold the taara S in an extended manner i.e. kaarvai you should be able to hold it with firmness and strength, without tiring… only then you would be able to sing the further higher notes like R, G, M, easily and attuned to shruti. A lot of musical phrasing, in our current music, is in the upper reaches. These are also the notes that are heard with clarity and which grab the people’s attention… if you sing in the lower octave, people nearby can hear it clearly and knowledgeable rasikas would like it.

However, we are required to sing a lot in the upper octave these days, and for that one should not tire… Even though there are mikes and speakers these days, one should be careful not to tire, since otherwise you would slip from the shruti… if that happens, your singing will not be fulfilling or pleasing… And if you don’t satisfy the listeners with your singing in that range, then there is no point in singing in the lower reaches either, having lost their attention !

The aadhaara S should also be held well and with firmness… even if you are only able to intone the lower N D P in a soft manner, that’s OK… but the taara S is very important… should be held with strength and firmness.

AIR-I: In singing svaras, i.e. kalpanaasvaras, you seem to have a unique style.

MMI: Unique style… really not… Mazhavaraayanendal Subbarama Bhagavatar used to sing svaras like this… when I was a student and a novice performer, I have heard a lot of his music… he used to sing svaras even for many rare raagas… his sarvalaghu manner of svara singing used to be very good… I tried to sing like that and develop my svara singing… my style is a direct outgrowth of that.

[Madurai Mani’s Iyer forthrightness is very evident here. His method of svara singing was greatly appreciated by many and hailed as unique by others… here, we see him give credit directly where it is due.

Incidentally, when Tiger Varadachariar is supposed to have sung rounds after rounds of svaras on a particular occasion, while he was the Principal of the Music College at Annamalai University, the disciples around him wondered aloud, in adoration, as to who could sing svaras like that. Tiger then told them of Subbarama Bhagavatar and his preeminence in svara singing.

Lalgudi Jayaraman has remarked that Subbarama Bhagavatar was among the seniormost vidvaans whom he has accompanied on the violin.]

AIR-I: Thanks for that information… in svara singing, people sing tisram, misram, etc… what is your opinion of this “arithmetic” (kaNakku) ?

MMI: Arithmetic… it is good… no problem there.. . as long as the raga bhaavam is not spoiled, there is nothing wrong… if the raaga bhaavam is there, and if the voice admits of this exercise, and if the arithmetic is also interesting, then there is no problem at all. We can all be happy and enjoy.

People who are well-qualified should attempt it… everyone need not feel a compulsion to engage in this… if we do arithmetic, troubling ourselves, tossing raga bhaavam to the wind, and losing the shruti also in the process, there is no point… the sukha bhaavam in the cutcheri would be lost… without losing sight of the overall sukha bhaavam, the raaga bhaavam, when someone who is intelligent, has a strong memory, has had good association with laya vidvaans, does this arithmetic, then we also can enjoy it and appreciate it.

[Madurai Mani Iyer seems to caution both the musicians and the listeners against making a fetish out of arithmetic, suggesting that only those who are well-qualified can pull it off in an aesthetic manner. While one may see a slight touch of sarcasm in his reference to “memory”, it nevertheless highlights the fact that a lot of people who do arithmetic indeed memorize a lot of svara korvais and such… of course, it may get to a point where it becomes second nature and hence acquires a certain felicity.]

AIR-I: What advice do you have youngsters who are learning music and desire to perform, and others who have just begun to perform ?

MMI: They should hear many concerts of the senior vidvaans, the established vidvaans… because, however much they are talented, since they lack the experience, their music will not be sufficient or fulfilling… they should observe how the senior vidvaans make their concerts a success and please all varieties of listeners… how they use their voices in a concert hall, how they employ the various thick and thin shades in their voices, how they plan their concerts… these are all to be learnt only by direct observation… it does not happen otherwise, however well one sings by themselves or practices their music.

They have to hear the senior vidvaans over and over again… no other way… but, they don’t have to imitate them… it will all jell together over time as they keep singing, and hearing the senior vidvaans attentively.

AIR-I: About adjusting the shruti…

MMI: They should pay sufficient attention to setting the shruti before singing… they should give sufficient time to the accompanists to adjust their instruments to the shruti… before proceeding to sing, they should attune themselves to the shruti by intoning S-P-S in a manner audible just to themselves… steadying themselves thus, if they sing, there would be no problem… if in the midst of a concert, the shruti drifts, they should adjust it properly and then continue… if the shruti wavers, sukha bhaavamm will be lost… the felicity will be lost… the more and more we are attuned to shruti, the easier the music will flow… hence one must pay great attention to it.

AIR-I: Thanks very much for sharing your experiences and your pointers to all aspiring musicians. Namaskaaram.

MMI: Namaskaaram.

[Nick H]

Truly artists welcome interactions with the initiated and knowledgeable rasikas. This gives them the best satisfaction over the ritual thanks giving speeches with high praise to win their round of applause from their rasikas. Rasikas should have the discipline of not engaging the artists in discussion before the concert, leaving them focused on the performance. Speeches have to be done away with. I recommend introduction of allocated time for rasikas and artists interaction on expectation, delivery and feedback moderated by trained impresario. Critics to listen to this interaction and must 'report' on the rasikas feed back in their 'review'. Another alternative suggestion is rasikas can host dinner for the artists and informal discussions can take place during the dinner time. Rasikas should support teachers to participate and share unbiased technical analysis to give the clarity and understanding on the values of musical offering by the artists. Media, print in particular, must introduce and support 'feedback' column with equal opportunity to the artists concerned to post reply/comments. All these are part of music appreciation and enrich the relationship and musical experience. Real risks for the artists are losing the 'halo' assiduously built by the rasikas themselves

Agree with a lot of what you say, but I should hate to lose the informal greeting and thanks. Many rasikas slip away at the end of a concert, some artists do too. It is accepted that maybe some of us are "groupies," and others are just not sociable. It should also be recognised that a concert is an artistic and spiritual exertion, after which some artists may find chat difficult.

However, carnatic artists, even big-name ones, are mush more accessible than those in most music genres. This should be maintained.

[vasanthakokilam]

Srini, awesome. What a wealth of material there. Quite enjoyable to read. Thanks.

Our member venkatakailasam is our subject matter expert for youtube and related things. Or you can put up the audio at archive.org I am looking forward to listening to the original in Tamil. Thx.

[Rsachi]

The audio of the AIR interview was put up by me before here, I think:
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 75#p259273

[srini_pichumani]

Vasanthakokilam & Rsachi

thanks for the pointers. I have uploaded the interview on archive.org -- the audio is a little better.

-Srini.

[srini_pichumani]

Here's the link:

https://archive.org/details/MmiInterview

[hnbhagavan]

Vijaya siva being unhappy with recording and use of smart phones etc.

These days things have to be ignored and if some one is recording,I think it will be only for personal use of self and friends.This is a way of propagation of carnatic music.
When we are talking of dwindling audience,by expressing unhappiness over use of gadgets and recording,even the existing number may be driven away.
Hence it is better to adopt Sanjay subramanyam's attitude and be friendly and not give any instructions.