Vidyarthi 2014 - An exciting Summer Workshop from 21-24 May

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 29 May 2014, 12:29

The method adopted by Sri MSakella needs attention from the music community.As pointed out it is in places where carnatic music is not in the same league as in Chennai.The detailed response by Sri Ravikiran throws light on several facets of learning.
I would like to bring to your kind attention that Sri Lalgudiji has many students who are good performing artists today in addition to his children.Since his methods are not documented,Some of his students can be invited to share their experiences.He has students in both violin as well as vocal which lends gives great credibility for his teaching methods.Some references to his teaching are detailed in the biography - The Incurable Romantic by Lakshmi Devnath.
Today it is of utmost urgency to bring more number of young listeners to the music concerts.A few listeners's appreciation course have been held at Sri Rama Lalita Kala mandira.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 29 May 2014, 17:36

Chi. Chitravina Ravikiran dear,

In the olden days, in the process of learning music the aspirants have to invariably depend upon their teacher or another co-student or others to listen to the music sung or played by them in the absence of any notated books or any sound-recording-gadgets. Taking advantage of this dependency of the aspirant, since time immemorial, a system of teaching has very intelligently been formulated by the so called “Gurus’. As per this system a number of items, right from the primary lessons upto Kritis/ Keertanas etc., will be taught to the aspirant serially even by increasing this number or accordingly even elongating the process also for many years as they like. Simultaneously the responsibility of acquiring the knowledge of Manodharma Sangita also is thrown upon the poor and ignorant aspirant. Moreover, all the music-teachers are always used to create hatred towards notating the compositions and are always used only to sing or play themselves and ask the aspirants follow them in singing or playing. By all this, since then, it is believed that this is the only method of teaching music to the aspirants.

Later, some of the musicians, with great heart, brought out some music books with notated compositions around 1900. But, for the first time in the history, in 1900, when Subbarama Dikshitar, with great heart, published his ‘Sangita Sampradayapradarshini” even along with symbolised notation all the musicians became perturbed that they loose their grip over the aspirants by this action. However, they all very intelligently managed the situation by openly praising his action but indirectly obstructing it by not following or developing it in any manner. That is why this symbolized notation has never been furnished in any of the later publications except in my book, AMS Easy Methods-2007. But, even after the publication of this book, even though it helps the aspirants in so many ways no music-teacher speaks about this symbolized notation or follows or develops or even criticizes it. All our students follow, practice and even demonstrate them efficiently even in our competitions.

Later, around 1990 the spool-tape-recorder, around 1970 cassette-recorder and around 2000 the CDs and DVDs came into existence as a boon for the music aspirants. But, had these musicians honestly and sincerely published books with notated compositions and supplied along with pre-recorded CDs or DVDs containing the same compositions sung in the same notation they all would have helped a lot to all our aspirants. But, unfortunately, all these music-teachers wantonly took each and every care not to publish any music books with notated compositions and pre-recorded CDs or DVDs containing the same compositions. Thus, even if these music-teachers do not do the needful and honestly help the poor and ignorant aspirants whole-heartedly, shall I call them very honest persons becoming a hypocrite like all others? To fill in this void I have brought out four books (both in Telugu & English) with notations and CDs.

In the olden days when no auto-running vehicles are found people were used to walk to go to Varanasi. But, nowadays, we can avoid all that hardship of walking. In the same manner when no sound-recording-gadgets are available, the aspirants were compelled to depend upon their teachers or co-students or others to listen to their music. But, even after the plentiful availability of umpteen sound-recording-gadgets many of our honourble-music-teachers became ready in utilizing the modern technology like Skype etc., only to spread their tentacles all over the globe to squeeze more money from the poor aspirants but not to properly utilize the same technology either to quicken the process of learning or to remove the dependency of the poor aspirants. And, most unfortunately, nobody comes out to question these music-teachers in this respect and, in turn, all the music-teachers support each other in doing so. I do not know why none of the honourable-music-teachers provide notated compositions and pre-recorded CDs or DVDs to the aspirants to make things easier.

Present quantitative system of teaching/learning music is making the aspirant mostly dependent upon the teacher and unnecessarily wasting the valuable time of the aspirant. To save the aspirant from the hardship of this system a logical and rational system has been found for the benefit of the aspirants and the respective parents not only by reducing the duration of learning to less than 5 years but also making the student independent in many aspects. As this logical system very efficiently quickens the process of learning music but culminates to the financial loss and loosing the teachers’ grip over the aspirants, I have my own doubts that the traditionalists or conservatives will not only avoid to follow this system but also to possibly sabotage it in each and every possible manner.

As I already wrote in one of my previous posts it is of no use of explaining about the scarcity of water to a person having plenty of water supplies. In the same manner, any person who is used to live in a plentiful environment of music and with abundant facilities to learn music very leisurely and also to shine well can never understand the problems of others lacking of all such things. Having been brought up in hard core conservative environment, even after going through all my posts and other relevant material of audios and videos etc., you could neither become aware of the illogicality or the irrationality of your own system of learning music brought in ‘www.acharyanet’ nor the presently needed logicality or rationality of our system. So, I think that there will not be any use in further explaining this logical system.

Being myself one of the victims of this suicidal quantitative system of teaching music and, having already spoiled several of my students as teacher, now, having realized and having become able to truly and truthfully serve our people, why should I not question the honesty of other harmful teachers of this suicidal system who never even try to look into or properly understand other systems even for the benefit of the poor young kids.

I don’t think that the conservatives’ dominated Music Academy takes any positive action in reducing the duration of the learning period from 15 years to 5 years are even less in the high interests of the kids and their parents.

As I am already exhausted to the saturated point in writing all these lengthy posts in various threads and I have to conserve my physical energy at this old age I am compelled to constrain myself, hereafter, in continuing them further.

Till now, here in our music-institute, Swarabhangima, we all have proved, beyond any doubt, that honest music-education is possible to get it within the maximum duration of 5 years, that too hardly within the age of 12 or 15 years, facilitating their higher education. Truly interested persons can contact the Convenor, Vidwan Shri J.S.Eshwaraprasad (Ph: 040-27225493 & 27221043, M-+919440258683) and visit out institution, Swarabhangima at Secunderabad, if needed. amsharma

MVRamanamurthy · Post by **MVRamanamurthy** » 30 May 2014, 10:08

Genesis and evolution of music are relevant to know to start with. If that is known, everything will be clear. In my view there can be no short cuts of teaching/learning anything, except, committed hard way. The musical doctrinaire is already set-in with strongest foundation. One has to understand what is all about it. Stop copying art of teaching and learning. Teach and learn music and not songs. What Akella, perhaps wish to ventilate is an organized way of teaching with logic, wherein, traditional teaching can be replaced/minimized with modern technological aids, so that teachers to teach in an organized way in minimum time and student can learn as per his convenience and as per the time required, by which in minimum time one can learn maximum (an optimization algorithm, universally required and adopted). This essence, I had published in an International Journal of Music and Dance. Visit:
http://www.academicjournals.org/article ... murthy.pdf

MVRamanamurthy · Post by **MVRamanamurthy** » 30 May 2014, 10:10

Genesis and evolution of music are relevant to know to start with. If that is known, everything will be clear. In my view there can be no short cuts of teaching/learning anything, except, committed hard way. The musical doctrinaire is already set-in with strongest foundation. One has to understand what is all about it. Stop copying art of teaching and learning. Teach and learn music and not songs. What Akella, perhaps wish to ventilate is an organized way of teaching with logic, wherein, traditional teaching can be replaced/minimized with modern technological aids, so that teachers to teach in an organized way in minimum time and student can learn as per his convenience and as per the time required, by which in minimum time one can learn maximum (an optimization algorithm, universally required and adopted). This essence, I had published in an International Journal of Music and Dance. Visit:
http://www.academicjournals.org/article ... murthy.pdf

MVRamanamurthy · Post by **MVRamanamurthy** » 30 May 2014, 16:13

Genesis and evolution of music are relevant to know to start with. If that is known, everything will be clear. In my view there can be no short cuts of teaching/learning anything, except, committed hard way. The musical doctrinaire is already set-in with strongest foundation. One has to understand what is all about it. Stop copying art of teaching and learning. Teach and learn music and not songs. What Akella, perhaps wish to ventilate is an organized way of teaching with logic, wherein, traditional teaching can be replaced/minimized with modern technological aids, so that teachers to teach in an organized way in minimum time and student can learn as per his convenience and as per the time required, by which in minimum time one can learn maximum (an optimization algorithm, universally required and adopted). This essence, I had published in an International Journal of Music and Dance. Visit:
http://www.academicjournals.org/article ... murthy.pdf

MVRamanamurthy · Post by **MVRamanamurthy** » 30 May 2014, 16:13

Genesis and evolution of music are relevant to know to start with. If that is known, everything will be clear. In my view there can be no short cuts of teaching/learning anything, except, committed hard way. The musical doctrinaire is already set-in with strongest foundation. One has to understand what is all about it. Stop copying art of teaching and learning. Teach and learn music and not songs. What Akella, perhaps wish to ventilate is an organized way of teaching with logic, wherein, traditional teaching can be replaced/minimized with modern technological aids, so that teachers to teach in an organized way in minimum time and student can learn as per his convenience and as per the time required, by which in minimum time one can learn maximum (an optimization algorithm, universally required and adopted). This essence, I had published in an International Journal of Music and Dance. Visit:
http://www.academicjournals.org/article ... murthy.pdf

MVRamanamurthy · Post by **MVRamanamurthy** » 30 May 2014, 16:13

Genesis and evolution of music are relevant to know to start with. If that is known, everything will be clear. In my view there can be no short cuts of teaching/learning anything, except, committed hard way. The musical doctrinaire is already set-in with strongest foundation. One has to understand what is all about it. Stop copying art of teaching and learning. Teach and learn music and not songs. What Akella, perhaps wish to ventilate is an organized way of teaching with logic, wherein, traditional teaching can be replaced/minimized with modern technological aids, so that teachers to teach in an organized way in minimum time and student can learn as per his convenience and as per the time required, by which in minimum time one can learn maximum (an optimization algorithm, universally required and adopted). This essence, I had published in an International Journal of Music and Dance. Visit:
http://www.academicjournals.org/article ... murthy.pdf

MVRamanamurthy · Post by **MVRamanamurthy** » 30 May 2014, 16:13

Genesis and evolution of music are relevant to know to start with. If that is known, everything will be clear. In my view there can be no short cuts of teaching/learning anything, except, committed hard way. The musical doctrinaire is already set-in with strongest foundation. One has to understand what is all about it. Stop copying art of teaching and learning. Teach and learn music and not songs. What Akella, perhaps wish to ventilate is an organized way of teaching with logic, wherein, traditional teaching can be replaced/minimized with modern technological aids, so that teachers to teach in an organized way in minimum time and student can learn as per his convenience and as per the time required, by which in minimum time one can learn maximum (an optimization algorithm, universally required and adopted). This essence, I had published in an International Journal of Music and Dance. Visit:
http://www.academicjournals.org/article ... murthy.pdf

MVRamanamurthy · Post by **MVRamanamurthy** » 30 May 2014, 16:14

Genesis and evolution of music are relevant to know to start with. If that is known, everything will be clear. In my view there can be no short cuts of teaching/learning anything, except, committed hard way. The musical doctrinaire is already set-in with strongest foundation. One has to understand what is all about it. Stop copying art of teaching and learning. Teach and learn music and not songs. What Akella, perhaps wish to ventilate is an organized way of teaching with logic, wherein, traditional teaching can be replaced/minimized with modern technological aids, so that teachers to teach in an organized way in minimum time and student can learn as per his convenience and as per the time required, by which in minimum time one can learn maximum (an optimization algorithm, universally required and adopted). This essence, I had published in an International Journal of Music and Dance. Visit:
http://www.academicjournals.org/article ... murthy.pdf

MVRamanamurthy · Post by **MVRamanamurthy** » 30 May 2014, 16:17

Genesis and evolution of music are relevant to know to start with. If that is known, everything will be clear. In my view there can be no short cuts of teaching/learning anything, except, committed hard way. The musical doctrinaire is already set-in with strongest foundation. One has to understand what is all about it. Stop copying art of teaching and learning. Teach and learn music and not songs. What Akella, perhaps wish to ventilate is an organized way of teaching with logic, wherein, traditional teaching can be replaced/minimized with modern technological aids, so that teachers to teach in an organized way in minimum time and student can learn as per his convenience and as per the time required, by which in minimum time one can learn maximum (an optimization algorithm, universally required and adopted). This essence, I had published in an International Journal of Music and Dance. Visit:
http://www.academicjournals.org/article ... murthy.pdf

MVRamanamurthy · Post by **MVRamanamurthy** » 30 May 2014, 16:17

Genesis and evolution of music are relevant to know to start with. If that is known, everything will be clear. In my view there can be no short cuts of teaching/learning anything, except, committed hard way. The musical doctrinaire is already set-in with strongest foundation. One has to understand what is all about it. Stop copying art of teaching and learning. Teach and learn music and not songs. What Akella, perhaps wish to ventilate is an organized way of teaching with logic, wherein, traditional teaching can be replaced/minimized with modern technological aids, so that teachers to teach in an organized way in minimum time and student can learn as per his convenience and as per the time required, by which in minimum time one can learn maximum (an optimization algorithm, universally required and adopted). This essence, I had published in an International Journal of Music and Dance. Visit:
http://www.academicjournals.org/article ... murthy.pdf

MVRamanamurthy · Post by **MVRamanamurthy** » 30 May 2014, 16:19

Genesis and evolution of music are relevant to know to start with. If that is known, everything will be clear. In my view there can be no short cuts of teaching/learning anything, except, committed hard way. The musical doctrinaire is already set-in with strongest foundation. One has to understand what is all about it. Stop copying art of teaching and learning. Teach and learn music and not songs. What Akella, perhaps wish to ventilate is an organized way of teaching with logic, wherein, traditional teaching can be replaced/minimized with modern technological aids, so that teachers to teach in an organized way in minimum time and student can learn as per his convenience and as per the time required, by which in minimum time one can learn maximum (an optimization algorithm, universally required and adopted). This essence, I had published in an International Journal of Music and Dance. Visit:
http://www.academicjournals.org/article ... murthy.pdf

MVRamanamurthy · Post by **MVRamanamurthy** » 30 May 2014, 16:20

Genesis and evolution of music are relevant to know to start with. If that is known, everything will be clear. In my view there can be no short cuts of teaching/learning anything, except, committed hard way. The musical doctrinaire is already set-in with strongest foundation. One has to understand what is all about it. Stop copying art of teaching and learning. Teach and learn music and not songs. What Akella, perhaps wish to ventilate is an organized way of teaching with logic, wherein, traditional teaching can be replaced/minimized with modern technological aids, so that teachers to teach in an organized way in minimum time and student can learn as per his convenience and as per the time required, by which in minimum time one can learn maximum (an optimization algorithm, universally required and adopted). This essence, I had published in an International Journal of Music and Dance. Visit:
http://www.academicjournals.org/article ... murthy.pdf

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 30 May 2014, 17:37

Dear Murthy,

Why are u repeating your posts?

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 30 May 2014, 18:02

Dear brother-member, MVRamanamurthy,

What you wrote is absolutely true. Having seen your well educative post I retrieved my strength, got into super-energetic-mood and sat to write this post again. Even though you are not a professional musician you, as a professional teacher, have properly understood my system. Thanks a lot for this.

While there are only two ways, traditional and logical ways, in learning music basing upon their abilities, needs, choices and other relevant things of the aspirants, an in-experienced teacher teaches the aspirant in a general way wasting years of time and a well experienced teacher makes the aspirant learn things very quickly in a short-cut way possibly quickening the process.

In the olden days when no notations were available for compositions and when no sound-recording-gadgets are also found all the teachers and disciples were used to teach and learn hundreds of compositions in 20 or 30 long years like spending 5 or 10 years to go to Varnasi and come back on foot. Later, now, fortunately, in respect of travel, each and everybody is utilizing the modern traveling facilities like bus, train, flight etc., minimizing the time and energy. But, even though all these music-teachers under the guise of honest ‘Gurus’ are on the fore-front in eagerly utilizing the modern technology like Skype, Websites, CDs, DVDs etc., etc., in spreading their tentacles all over the globe and making quick money, very sadly, they are not at all making any efforts either to make the process easier by supplying notated compositions along with pre-recorded CDs or to quicken the process for the benefit of the aspirants and their parents. But, at the same time, they all invariably follow the same old traditional strategy of spending 10 or 20 long years in teaching a large number of items like 35 Alankaras, 30 Gitas, 50 Varnas, 3 to 4 hundreds of Kritis/Keerthanas etc., etc., in the name of repertoire.

On par with general education if the kid starts learning music around 6 or 7 years of age and fulfills learning the most important intricacies of rhythm and note through few select Varnas and Kritis along with the needed Manodharma Sangita within the maximum duration of 4 or 5 years, later, basing upon the abilities, needs, choices and other relevant things the aspirant can himself/herself continue his/her studies in music. However, this becomes possible only if an efficient, honest and sincere teacher makes the aspirant learn the maximum technicalities of music in the minimum duration of time properly utilizing the modern technology in each and every possible manner but not a large number of songs.

On one side having accompanied hundreds of musicians in various performances and with that vast experience of professional performer and, on the other, having regularly worked as a music-teacher in an institutionalized set up in many Govt. Music Colleges for 35 long years and with that vast experience of professional teacher I have successfully formulated a logical system of learning music. For this the knowledge of Mridangam, Harmonium and Talaprastara, I already had had helped me a lot in successfully minimizing the dependency of the aspirant in acquiring efficiency over rhythm and note and also in minimizing the role of the teacher into a guide simultaneously.

Just like in the case of the rarest topic Talaprastara to me, I have also been blessed with this logical system of learning music by the Almighty and HE HIMSELF had gracefully arranged for its successful propagation also. Musicians with very high level logical and teacher’s perspective only can easily understand this system of learning music. amsharma

chitravina ravikiran · Post by **chitravina ravikiran** » 30 May 2014, 22:17

Dear Akella garu,

I do appreciate that you find posting long replies tedious. It is not my intent to draw you into an argument about this.

Nevertheless, I feel duty bound to counter gross mis-assumptions and misinterpretations of things since it is dangerous for rasikas at large to be swayed by only one perspective. No posts would be required by anyone were you to simply say that you have evolved excellent methods of teaching. But it is entirely another matter for anyone in the field to write off the methods of all other gurus and legends in history and also question their intent, motive and honesty, especially against every reality.

Taking advantage of this dependency of the aspirant, since time immemorial, a system of teaching has very intelligently been formulated by the so called “Gurus’.

This is absolutely nothing to do with 'taking advantage'. If anything, gurus gave full shelter to students, treated them as family and students gained immeasurably by this, as well documented accounts of hundreds of people reveal.

responsibility of acquiring the knowledge of Manodharma Sangita also is thrown upon the poor and ignorant aspirant.

I have already pointed out that this is far from reality. Thousands of gurus have taught mano-dharma and also taught what is not 'dharma' in creativity. I know hundreds of gurus who still do so.

all the music-teachers are always used to create hatred towards notating the compositions

Again, incorrect. Many teachers themselves notate excellently well and train their students to do. If not, several krtis of Trinity and others would have hardly come down to us even in reasonable shape. Notations have several limitations which good gurus warn about. I fail to see the rationale in questioning intent of gurus in this.

all these music-teachers under the guise of honest ‘Gurus’ are on the fore-front in eagerly spreading their tentacles all over the globe and making quick money, very sadly, they are not at all making any efforts either to make the process easier by supplying notated compositions along with pre-recorded CDs or to quicken the process for the benefit of the aspirants and their parents

These are absolutely incorrect statements and also downright offensive to all gurus who have done much more in recent times. Good gurus balance between spoon-feeding and provoking thought and ability. Spoon feeding does not always translate to 'faster'.

I can go on to counter numerous other similar statements but I don't want to tire you or readers further on this subject.

Nor do I want to talk about my own methods, that you have kindly termed as irrational and illogical!!! The results are well known in the field - my average time to train and present students in professional level concerts is usually 4-5 years. It is again well known that several of my students from far flung cities such as Austin, Dallas, Minneapolis have debuted by age 9-11 with 'all-round' capabilities with top accompanists in nearly 2.5 hour concerts critically acclaimed by legendary artistes and gurus. What you saw in www.acharyanet.com is barely 1/10th of what is uploaded and less than 1/100th of what any good guru normally covers. I do intend to put up much more online as and when time permits.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 31 May 2014, 03:31

Chi. Ravikiran dear,

I feel extremely glad to see your detailed post and to know that our ‘Ravi’ is doing the rightful service honestly by making the kids efficient in our music right from their childhood. Very nice, dear. On seeing your post I felt very happy and retrieved my energy to properly respond.

Even though we both did not even meet or speak after our concert in Khammam long long ago, I very well know since that time that you are super-intelligent than many of our musicians and do miracles in future. That is why you are able to bring the Chitravina, a very difficult but nice musical instrument like the Violin, under your control. While both these two very difficult stringed instruments are fret-less the Violin, in our South Indian Music, is mainly used for accompaniment making it worse.

While you are born and brought from a very fertile area in music, fortunately or unfortunately, I was born and brought from a desert which you cannot deny. This small difference naturally makes all the difference to tell successfully bringing out many disparities of different kinds.

As I already wrote, having been born and brought from a desert, I have my own experiences either bad or good which lead me to seek the grace of the Almighty. Ultimately, just like in case of the rarest topic Talaparastara, HE very graciously blessed me with a very rare, very efficient, very effective, very quick and unbelievable system of learning (not teaching) music also.

Being very intelligent you can very easily understand and follow this and do the needful for the betterment of our kids in future, I believe. My Skype address is ‘msakella2002’ and if you come online by Skype I shall give you all the needed details to follow. You can even contact me to my mobile number 9908822992, to fix some time to speak on Skype, if needed.

Please convey my warm regards to your father and my friend, Shri Chitravina Narasimhan.

With blessings and all best wishes, amsharma-31-05-2014 - 3.30 am.

MVRamanamurthy · Post by **MVRamanamurthy** » 31 May 2014, 06:42

Dear Vidwan Ravikiran,

Have you read my this link, which already twice I cited?

http://www.academicjournals.org/article ... murthy.pdf

If, not read and solicit valued feedback from you and all other seriously concerned.
Also, I wish to know, what is the difference in you from the contents of my write-up? .

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 31 May 2014, 07:58

Dear Sri Ravi Kiran and Msakella Sir,

Thanks to you both and as an ordinary rasika,I got exposed to several methods of teaching.Vidwan RaviKiran has summed it up very well and defended several legends,because of whom today we have so many performing artists.It is very necessary to get a true perspective of facts.MSakella 's methods are training several students and the final result will be how many of them will be able to become performing musicians.Some of his youtube videos are impressive.Like wise Sri RaviKiran has already some students who are already on concert circuits.
Several legends trained their disciples and brought them gradually to concert platforms.We have several leading performers today and I need not mention the long list of legends and their students.
I as a Rasika would like to acknowledge all the musicians who are engaged in the task of bringing up young musicians.
I do not consider that money alone is the driving force.Yet,it is true that guru should be paid his dues for him to carry on.
Long back,I do remember an article which highlighted that Sri MDR's family was not well off as MDR never gave importance to monetary aspects.
I am pained when rasikas want only free music concerts and even do not contribute for the Mangalarati lamp.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 31 May 2014, 09:35

Dear Vidwan Ravikiran,

Have you read my this link, which already twice I cited?
http://www.academicjournals.org/article ... murthy.pdf
If, not read and solicit valued feedback from you and all other seriously concerned.
Also, I wish to know, what is the difference in you from the contents of my write-up? .

This is one of the pitfalls of Masters agreeing to come down to the levels of lesser mortals and show us a glimpse of what goes behind what we rever as excellence . Sincerely hope these masters dont get agitated and move out of these forums .

Our is a generation in which we have moved on from " I dont know how to explain , but I can perform " to the most eloquent of interpreters who can couch musical thoughts in a lower level language that we ordinary mortals can grasp .

Sometimes there are occasions when the silent majority has to take blame for things going wrong . And so here , I am , moving out of my silence , with my two cents .
Akellaji's line of argument fails to convince the neutral observer because it depends on proving the other is wrong .

Training in Music , like say Football or any other art has a school of thought that depends on (a) method or (b) personalised style or (c) a combination of both . And with the cultural world crumbling around us , if there are two contrasting styles , all are needed .To coexist.
Cynicism of the world' ways is something all of us go through after we reach our forties with dreams rapidly drying up . To fit this experience with the handle of calling all other teachers as rogues is not in line with evolved deliberations.

My wife often reminisces about her Guru ( Chandrasekhar Jois in Shimoga ) turn utterly sad when one of the students would sing something wrong . And the effect on him ? .
He would take days to console himself to get the mood to teach again . The students would not be able to guess where exactly , who went wrong . But the remark : Ayeethu , ishtakkey saku ivattige " would mean a world inside him had trembled . He would even go to the extent of telling students : If you are coming to pass the music exams , go further down the street . But if you want to learn music , join us and I will soon find out "

Vidyarthi : Such a delightful word ,pregnant with a million possibilities . Let us wish this program a success and hope that the masters (including Ravikiran and Akellaji ) be kind enough to illuminate us .
I am fond of reiterating that CM has painted itself to a corner . Let that be . At least the paints could be aesthetic ones.

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 31 May 2014, 10:17

There are several aspects to keep in mind as far as the learning of fine arts is concerned. Carnatic music belongs to the same category where traditional class room method of teaching does not work.To sustain interest in carnatic music and make a career is indeed very challenging.Generally children leave after a couple of years of learning citing study reasons.Even parents rarely encourage career in music.In earlier years Gurukula ensured the students to have sustained interest.I think those who were in gurukula vasam did not worry about monetary aspects to start with.Most of the performing artists today had such personalised training and also took initiative to learn.

It is to be seen if Msakella's easy methods can produce performing musicians.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 31 May 2014, 11:00

The problem is with the word easy .
Easier is closer to what is meant, probably. I had the fortune of watching how Tanjore Sankara Iyer taught for close to two years.That was the period when I got convinced that one Janma is not sufficient to grasp CM in its entirety .
There are simply no easy routes for anything substantial in this world .
Sometimes masters tend to call it simple and easy ( Like TRS USED TO DO WHILE DEMYSTIFYING PALLAVIS ) )
But as he would climb into the alapana of say a bhairavi and say at the halfway mark , - Now see how this note hereafter develops an ego , one has to keep touching it again and again for the raga to bloom fully ....
THAT is the great advantage of this generation . Capability and eloquence going hand in hand .
Performers seeing a more long lasting role for themselves .
One should be careful to know that those were tongue in cheek remarks aimed at pulling the doubter into the fold .

How I wish I was the napkin with which Pinakapani dried his hands after finishing a surgery and sitting down to teach a few lessons to his disciples in the dispensary

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 31 May 2014, 14:47

Dear all,

While very few are able to understand my views most of the people are misunderstanding me that I am always writing every thing against the music-teachers. But, don’t you know that I have also been one among them for much of my life? Being one of them for much of my life how can I abuse them? Why I am abusing them? What I am going to get in turn at this fag end of my life by abusing them? Does anybody have any answer for these questions? None of you can do that as all of you are more of performer’s perspective but far less of teacher’s perspective. Unless one is more of teacher’s perspective cannot understand me and answer.

Having already learnt music in a defective system, having thus worked as an inefficient-music-teacher, and having thus already ruined many of my poor students for many years un-knowingly can any sensible person understand in which way my heart has been burning with repentance since many years? Nobody can understand this but put the blame upon me very easily.

Previously I have already brought out much of the information in regard to the new logical system of learning music we all are very successfully following here at Secunderabad through many of my posts. Even if I have already mentioned many a time in my previous posts, I must reiterate one very important point again as nobody keenly observed and took it seriously. That is ‘While initiating the aspirant in learning music I sing or play the minimum but make the aspirant sing or play the maximum’. If any one can try to understand this properly and bring such a music-teacher along with the proof then only I shall respond hereafter. amsharma

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 31 May 2014, 16:53

Dear Sri MSAKELLA Sir,

I wish to point out that there is no misunderstanding about your view that in your method,there is no spoon feeding.You teach minimum basics and the rest is the student's initiative.Thru this method,you have demonstrated that children are picking up and I did listen to your students.There is no doubt about that.I wish to see many performers from your esteemed institute.Please never think that your initiatives are not appreciated.
But still I cannot comprehend your view that the persons who are performing now and are known students of several performers were not taught by the so called legends.Here your view seems to be that these students learnt everything by themselves with no guidance from the teacher.Your remarks that there is no teacher worth mentioning in the past two decades and also at present is not acceptable as evidenced by the number of young star performers who were trained by several stalwarts - not necessary to mention any names.With this I am also closing my posting on this topic and wishing your school continued success for the cause of music teaching.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 01 Jun 2014, 14:09

Dear brother-member, hnbhagavan,

Thank you for your kind and sincere appreciation of our system.

In fact, only in respect of the persons who differed with me in this thread, I put the condition to produce a music teacher who sings or plays the minimum in the class but makes the aspirant sing or play the maximum (which they cannot fulfill it in their life time). But, I feel it as my duty to give the needed clarification to the persons like you who properly understand the things in the interest of our kids and the society without any bias. Being a non-professional in music as you need not have any bias there is no point if I do not properly answer your genuine question.

In respect of the next point in the second paragraph, for example, if we take the case of Dronacharya of Mahabharata and his two disciples, Ekalavya (indirect-disciple) and Arjuna (direct-disciple) these two disciples only have outshone all others with their individual efforts even though Dronacharya guided them all in the same manner. While teaching the driving of the motor cycle the aspirant can properly learn all the intricacies if he is properly initiated to drive by the teacher sitting on the pillion. If the teacher himself drives keeping the aspirant on the pillion how can the aspirant learn driving? Even for cooking the same applies. Even for music the same applies. But, all the musicians are always used to sing or play themselves and ask the aspirants also follow them in singing or playing. Each and everybody has been thinking that this is the only way of teaching or learning music. It took me for more than 40 years to realize that this is not at all the way of teaching or learning music but imitating without knowledge and only later everything in respect of learning music became crystal clear. That is why I tell that the true music-teacher sings or plays himself/herself the minimum only to demonstrate the technicalities and initiates the aspirant sing or play the maximum.

In this connection, in my 21st post, I have already furnished three levels in imparting our music, 1.efficient system, 2.the teacher or guide to pass on the system to the aspirant keeping a watch to keep him/her on the track and 3.the aspirant who receives the training. In any music-institute if the system is efficient the pass level of the inmates will be far more than the level of failure. If the system itself is inefficient the failure is more and brilliants only become efficient on their own accord. In my extensive research I ultimately found that the teacher’s role in music is merely to pass on the technicalities of the system to the aspirant keeping a watch to keep him/her on the track. But, the success of the aspirant mostly depends upon his/her individual abilities only.

An efficient system always provides provisions to stabilize the abilities of the aspirants also. Even among the five divisions, Ragam, Tanam, Pallavi, Niraval and Swarakalpana of Manodharma Sangita precise rhythm is a must for the four divisions, Tanam, Pallavi, Niraval and Swarakalpana. That is why by formulating and introducing 7-Jati-alankaras to be sung @ 1-2-3-4-6 & 8 per beat for the first time in the history, we have given the first preference to stabilize the rhythmical abilities of the aspirant in our logical system. Even in this rhythm, in the five-gatis of our Tala, four-time-importance is given by our ancestors in furnishing the four odd-gatis, Trisra, Khanda, Mishra and Sankeerna along with the single-even-gati, Chaturashra. That is why we have formulated 28-Special-laya-exercises also (visit ‘youtube.com/user/msakella) giving importance to the odd-gatis and Jatis which are taught at the primary level in our logical system.

Nowadays, even before attaining 10 years of age, we are compelled to properly plan for the future education of our kids. That is why we have already planned to properly initiate the kid right from the 6th or 7th year of age in acquiring the proper knowledge of rhythm and note. That is why, while all other teachers are taxing the kids with 35 Alankaras, more than 20 Gitas, more than 20 Varnas, more than 2 to 3 hundreds of Krits/Keertanas etc., etc., right from the 1st day of the lesson we initiate but don’t teach them to learn the 28-Special-laya-exercises, few primary lessons of Swara, only 5 Gitas, only 1 Swarapallavi, 9 select Varnas and 1 Swarajati in Bhairavi on their own in a special manner which later paves way to learn Kritis on their own. Our kids learn 5 Gitas and 1 Swarapallavi only to get acquaintance with the 12 notes and learn 9 select Varnas to get acquaintance with all the different kinds of oscillations. Our most efficient plan in learning music in this system is such that no aspirant, even right from the 1st day of the lesson and even in the absence of the teacher, can go off-track. Many kids, even before the end of the 1st year and even before singing all the Varnas @ 4, 6 & 8 per beat start singing intricate mathematical muktayis also very efficiently in Swarakalpana.

In the same manner, in respect of Ragalapana also, along with the symbolized notation or even with the general notation, if a pre-recorded CD is given to the aspirants it helps a lot. This has undoubtedly been proved in my umpteen experiments. But, as this ultimately removes the dependency of the aspirants each and every greedy-music-teacher very heavily condemns this outright and cries aloud against this.

The very first person to write a book on Manodharma Sangita was Dr. S. Pinakapanai, the Guru of my Guru Shri Nedunuri Krishna Murthy. Even though Dr. Pani had brought out 3 books on music he also did not care to supply them along with any pre-recorded CDs to the aspirants (only after going through his books I could understand in which way music-books should not be written to help the aspirants and I have already mentioned this even in my book ‘Gurushishyasamvadamulu-Telugu’). That is why I have brought out my book Sangita Swararaga Sudha on Manodharma Sangita containing 3 kinds of Swarakalpana in 6-Talas and Alapana for 36-Ragas along with symbolized notation and also with pre-recorded CD for the benefit of the aspirants. More over, basing upon the modern computer technology I have also cut the Raga-portion of some Vocalists and Violinists from hundreds of concerts, made folders of hundreds of Ragas, again cut some of the important Ragas into segments and folders and they are supplied to our kids on some conditions for the benefit of our kids. By all this even Manodharma Sangita is also learnt very quickly. Our musicians never prefer even to bring out any compositions with notation and along with pre-recorded CDs which help the aspirant a lot but prefer only to teach them face to face holding periodical workshops at several places to earn more like recurring income.

In getting the quick progress of the aspirant, either the pre-recorded CD containing the same composition or the composition with the symbolized notation helps a lot. But, even though the symbolized notation was at first furnished by Subbarama Dikshitar in 1900 in his Sangita Sampradayapradarshini, wantonly, this has neither been followed nor developed by any of these music-teachers as it helps the aspirant in making him/her or independent in learning all the compositions on his/her own, That is why we don’t find even a single book published after Sangita Sampradayapradarshini along with the same symbolized notation by any of our musicians. To fill in the void I have brought out my book AMS Easy Methods-2007 containing 9 Varnas and 1 Swarajati in Bhairavi with symbolized notation and pre-recorded CD.

I have visited many music-institutes and many music-departments of several Universities in our South India. Unfortunately, as no such care was taken by the so called “Gurus’ the traditional system was an utter failure in all of them. But, unfortunately, nobody bothers about that to rectify. However, the brilliant aspirants can themselves find ways and means to develop their abilities and outshine even their teachers. This obviously reveals that the efforts of the aspirants are the sole cause for their success than the teacher’s. But, not to loose their importance as the teacher, the student has been made the scapegoat dumping umpteen items in the syllabus to teach them elongating the process for many years.

While many know what the music-teachers are doing while teaching I know what they are not doing. That is the small difference making all the difference. amsharma

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 01 Jun 2014, 17:27

Dear Sri MSAkella,

Thank you very much for your detailed posting on this subject.I hope all the Rasikas read these posts .

MVRamanamurthy · Post by **MVRamanamurthy** » 02 Jun 2014, 16:01

Dear Musicians’,
I posted few, thinking that you read, but did not. Kindly, do not consider me as a person of non-grata. if interested in the content. I am a retired scientist and an ardent listener of Carnatic Music (CM).
If you visit: http://www.academicjournals.org/article ... murthy.pdf , you will notice, how the CM is nowadays at cross roads and the solution I had suggested to alleviate etc. If my paper is wrong, kindly substantiate.
A bit of nostalgic reminiscence: I did research in a top-class European Technological University. The professor will assess the student in just a couple weeks about the potential and interest and planning will be done as per the interest of the student. A brooder topic will be framed, but in most of the cases it takes many many turns and settles even an unknown jurisdiction. During the research, as and when any pre-requisites are required, one has to follow. They make sure/to teach fundamentals only and leave to delve the subject in-depth. There will be a weekly review. Anyone can participate. One has to explain, what was done and planned for next. In that process I landed in to a deep sea, wherein, I lost direction and no compass. I found certain, equations established were, not obeying as what is said. Previous workers ignored such results. None/my professor could help. When I ask, help from my professor, the only answer was, have I not taught fundamentals? Why you are disturbing? It is your baby. You have to deliver and nourish. I was standing at cross roads with no point of rerun. Alas, I wanted to test the fundamentals. He was furious. I told Good-bye. After three days, he asked me to proceed. I was correct. Modified. He took me to his room 23-00 hrs (the day I got the first result). He had put before me big bundle of papers. Those were nothing, but, he was trying to solve. However, he was harsh with me, but silently he has been doing. He was a true Guru.
The difference between Lecturer, Reader, and Professor I was under the impression they were all promotional posts. But not. Lecturer means just lectures a lesion. Reader who combines relevant topics and comes with lot of reference books/paper and just reads them. Professor at the end of a topic, on Saturday, he occupies the avail black boards (pullied) with colored chalk-piece writings and leaves one. Monday FN two hour lecture. Uses all gadgets: black boards, 35 mm projector slides, OHP material and the last 20 minutes is for a 16 mm projector show. Each one gives assignments as and when they finish a lesion. The corrected one will be given and with the help of hints, the students do get corrected. An exciting event is retirement lecture. Covers spanning over four decades of teaching and research, the merits, demerits, ups and downs etc., with a clear document about how to go forward in future. The dictum is if you try to solve one issue few issues takes birth. That is science (Dynamic)
So as Music. No dynamism is seen. Static. Why after trinity, vaggeyakaras are not coming-up. In RTP the artists used to ask the audience on the type of raga, deity, tala. Then there, spontaneously created and presented flawlessly. We know how RTP is today.
If you search the music genesis and evolutionary trends, then only you can prepare a road map for how to teach. By simply copying/mimic it is no teaching/learning.
Even in the present scenario of teaching, few teachers do take care and see the child learned correctly the swara, see sruthi and laya are maintained. That means the students themselves should figure out what/where/how went wrong. That’s the true spirit of teaching and learning. Unless they satisfy they do not go even an inch. Also they are inculcating the swara/notation knowledge.
It’s laughable, when teachers are taking under the garb/disguise of Manodharma Sangeetha teaching. What a mockery?

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 02 Jun 2014, 17:23

The focus should be the goal and objective. The goal is Karnatik Music has to reach critical masses and also in longer period, universal music. The objective is to review and revise to a new intent, content and delivery to meet varying requirements and aspirations of students and practitioners-knowledge and informed appreciation. With well over a century in time, Great Maestros/Maestros have contributed to the present growth and development. They have bequeathed to us the successful practices, evolving in continuum. Judgement on attainment of excellence will be the quality of teachers, performers, students, event managers and rasikas in any Art. Music is no exception.

Kalpana-manodharma is the edifice built on Kalpitha. It is not a mockery. Kalpitha edifice is built on Teaching, Quality of teachers and students.

If we are committed and dedicated, STOP the blame game, NOW. Let ACTION start in right earnest.

With KM on the threshold of global reach and contemporary changes and likely changes in the envisaged future, Excellence in all the aspects and elements have to be achieved. To establish the excellence, leaving the bias and prejudices aside, critically inquire, examine and establish the best systems and practices. Initiatives have started. It has to engulf all the centers of Karnatik Music, present and future.

munirao2001

MVRamanamurthy · Post by **MVRamanamurthy** » 03 Jun 2014, 06:04

Ref: Kalpana-manodharma is the edifice built on Kalpitha. It is not a mockery. Kalpitha edifice is built on Teaching, Quality of teachers and students by munirao2001 of 2 June 2014

Truth is only one, absolute and constant. Knowledge is relative and dynamic (changing).
I am aware of Kalipitha concept. Under this garb, many are teaching “Mano Dharma” and making huge moneies. As I understand it is self-conceivable and none can induce or introduce. One has to delve in-depth on the basics taught and learn on his own.

If you see any of postings, I never indulge/encourage blame game. Ultimately one is the best judge for him-self to known whether he is right or wrong. A malefic criminal or benefic soul do feel the same (they are right)’ while they are discharging their actions. Ultimately one is answerable to one’s own inner consciousness to know what dharma is. None needs to educate. Realization and repentance are ideal for correction.

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 03 Jun 2014, 07:23

Dear Ramana Murthy,

Even in conventional subjects such as engineering,commerce or science,all the students who enroll and pass out will not be of the same caliber.Exceptional scientists/Engineers are not coming out of such courses.However these courses produce employable people with some minimum training by organisations which tune as per their need.
Sir M Visvesvaraiyya,Dr.C V Raman ,Dr.APJ Abdul Kalam,Dr.Raja Ramanna did have formal education offered by the Institutes.But all these eminent persons gradually outshone others in their chosen field.
This is more so in fine arts.Here you can have courses in Universities and students who pass out will have some knowledge in music.But It will not be possible to mass produce
artists like Sri Balamurali,Umayalapuram Sivaraman etc.
Music especially Carnatic music as you know is not a routine subject.Extraordinary effort is required by the student and the environment is very important.
I cannot simply accept the fact that those who are singing on the concert circuit memorized some krithis and are performing in a routine way.These people got trained and are getting trained by various experts each in his own style.
However Sri MSAKELLA seems to have standardized the basics of teaching as evidenced by his Youtube videos.
Time is the test for every effort and I hope MSAKELLA can give great artists in carnatic music.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 03 Jun 2014, 09:23

Dear brother-members, MVRamanamurthy, munirao & hnbhagavan,

I do not know the set up of other educational institutions. But, in our music-institutions all the teaching posts are of promotional posts. By any chance if the higher post falls vacant the candidate working in the lower post immediately expects his/her promotion into that post irrespective of any other qualification.

More over, no academic inspection has ever been made in my 35 years of service. That is the efficiency of our governmental set up. All our musicians are always used to very intelligently manage to avoid any kind of academic inspection at any time. And, even about teaching abilities how much less we talk that much the better and healthy it is. I can very well tell the illogicality or the irrationality of each and every music-teacher on the globe as nobody is an exception. Having been one of these music-teachers for much of my life and having later realized much I very well know better than anybody else on the globe. I am not writing this to prove my greatness than all others or for any self-aggrandizement at all. I am the only person who openly brought out my own inefficiencies even without any ego. How many can do that? If our music-teachers properly realize themselves and do the needful honestly and sincerely many of our kids become stars or, if not, most of our kids certainly become impotents and very few may become stars.

Even in respect of teaching music to the aspirants, since many years all these musicians have been used to sing or play themselves and ask the aspirants to follow them singing or playing. By all this, a blind belief has since been developed that this is the only method to teach or learn music and there is no other way to do this. I also believed and followed the same in most of my service. But, later, I have found satisfying results only by formulating and introducing some new techniques in teaching Violin.

However, only after 5 years after my retirement, in my deep introspection, having very clearly found my inefficiency, I felt very unhappy and gave up my entire artistic and teaching life. Then, by the grace of the almighty I was blessed with an entirely different method in teaching which none of the musicians on the globe can even imagine or understand. In this system while the teacher’s role is less than 10% the aspirant’s role is more than 90%. By following this system brilliant kids are able to learn even upto Kritis on their own and sing even the intricate mathematical Swarakalpana along with brief Ragalapana even at the completion of learning the 9 select Varnas and 1 Swarajati in Bhairavi even within the duration of only one year unbelievably. All these things became possible only by initiating them through all these intricate rhythmical exercises and the intricate oscillations of select Varnas but not only by learning masterpieces in rare Ragas for many years.

Having some acquaintance with Chitravina Shri Narasimhan I have readily offered to give the details of this novel system to Chi. Ravikiran. But, as he did not respond positively I had to stop and I shall stop.

Jus like in the case of Talaprastara I was very fortunate for having been blessed by the Almighty even with this novel method in learning music also. HE HIMSELF not only blessed me with this novel method but also arranged a dedicated team of workers, parents and school-going-kids for the successful propagation here at Secunderabad even without my interference. I feel it as my duty to give this out only to the persons who are truly interested to learn and propagate honestly and sincerely.

We can only initiate the aspirant in cooking but we cannot make him cook delicious food. In the same manner, we all sincerely feel that the teacher’s duty is to initiate the aspirant in learning things on his/her own in these standardized methods while performing this performing art right from the basics in the minimum possible time. Later, that is his/her choice, ability and hard work to make him/her a legend or maestro or expert or a true teacher.

I fully believe in God and only by HIS grace I have never been used to crave for any thing except for the betterment of our kids in respect of our music. On HIS grace this is being done at its own pace and level very successfully getting amazing end-results. I am fully satisfied with it and I don’t need to do anything further in this respect than restricting myself to my own place and fully stop responding in this thread hereafter. Good-bye. amsharma

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 03 Jun 2014, 12:18

MVRamanamuthi Sir,

Creative and Re creative. The thought and works, afresh and anew not related to the existing thought and works are original. Act of making the unknown, known. The thought and works, anew related to the existing thought and works, either a variant, its modifications or reproduction is re creative. Act of making more, the known.

In Manodharma, creative first aspect is the Absolute, original and prime cause with infinite potentialities and possibilities, with no variant or differentiating factors, the very being of creativity and unexpressed or recognized creativity. It is not the first cause, not the creator. It is cause in the sense that it is present in every creator, secretively or unrevealed. Active powers in the mind-sattva or budhi, first thinker and thought, meditated to us the unknowable, original archetypes, intellectual forms of inward perception or contemplation and expression of vak, the manifestation and identity. Kalpana sangita of the lakshaya and the lakshana sangita of the first thinker and the vaggeyakara and the performer, revealing the beauty of form, structure and power, as first cause, pure, divine or deified conscious. Realized inner Self surfacing in outer Self, partaking the pleasure with other interested and inspired selves is Sat-Self Being. Rest in inner harmony.

With sadhana or immense practice, creatively recreating, Manodharma, the second aspect is second cause. Attempting recall pleasure for self and other selves with energy and power felt by one and all, the original or its value variants or modifications, giving a clear identity, form, structure, system and method of delivery is the Self Conscious. Creative manner of delivery in performance, unique and identity of the performer, reaching out and getting the support of rasikas far and wide, offering pleasure/bliss, is Ananda-Self-delight. Unity of inner with outer harmony.

Our discussion on revised and new innovative teaching systems and methods is only about the second aspect of Manodharma.

munirao2001

chitravina ravikiran · Post by **chitravina ravikiran** » 04 Jun 2014, 22:08

Hello all,

I have been caught up in some video project and have not been able to update myself much on this thread. However, I shall do so at the earliest and respond to everyone...

Shri Akella garu,

I will try and contact you as soon as my project gets done.

I did read the article by Shri Ramanamurthi and must say that some of the points he has covered are valid. But many have already been taken care of by various gurus/institutions.

Bottom-line: There is no single method that can be standardised across the board because each region/student/school has to be studied and their needs be addressed by gurus. This is already being done very very successfully by hundreds of gurus in various cities employing numerous methods that combine tradition, technology. I see this first hand across the world and place on record my admiration for all of them.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 05 Jun 2014, 07:59

Any feedback on the programme?

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 05 Jun 2014, 10:48

Chitraveena Ravikiran

You opine that "There is no single method that can be standardized across the board because each region/student/school has to be studied and their needs be addressed by gurus". When the idea and the need is universality of teaching, standardization is a must. Standardization of the system. Based on the system and strong base of method, core elements, creative method and manner of teaching to meet the specific needs to be the domain of the teachers for the dynamics. Standardization is to achieve a minimum and ensure uniform quality for judgment in a competitive environment for the practice. Standardized system is not to shut out creativity but to support, sustain and enhance. Judgment based on the non standardized education is a malady seriously affecting Karnatik Music, its practioners and other stakeholders.
With the contribution of Great Maestros, like you and others, the goal can be eminently achieved. The goal is globalization of Karnatik Music appreciation and support.

munirao2001

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 05 Jun 2014, 11:52

You can standardise the methods and syllabus, but everything depends on two unique individuals -- the teacher AND the student.

A successful method adopted by a particular teacher, may not give same result when adopted by other teachers.

Again, all students of a great teacher may not turn out to be equally great singers.

In short, as Sri Chitraveena Ravikiran states, "There is no single method that can be standardized across the board because each region/student/school has to be studied and their needs be addressed by gurus."

--

As for the Workshops for Teachers, they may encourage the participants to share their experiences and may inspire them to try out other successful techniques adopted by others. But, even if you have one teacher in a workshop who thinks that his method is the ONLY BEST METHOD and all other methods are rotten, then the workshop will be a failure. And even if there is one participant who thinks that he is the only REAL TEACHER and all others are CHEATERS, then again the workshop will be a failure.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 05 Jun 2014, 12:40

Pratyaksham Bala

You have stated "even if you have one teacher in a workshop who thinks that his method is the ONLY BEST METHOD and all other methods are rotten". Leave the workshop, the problem is real for the serious and committed students with this attitude of majority of the teachers. In the seminar for the teachers, as per my suggestion, the Great Maestro teachers will present their papers on the systems and methods for the standardization based on the revised and innovative methods. This will be followed by Lecture demonstrations by the select Maestro teacher with his students to test the relevancy, efficiency and excellence. The final session with panel discussions on the recommendation, with an eminent moderator will formulate the final recommendation for active consideration by the relevant authorities. If the discussions is of desired high quality and consensus emerges, the prevailing bias and prejudice will become unproductive and will gradually disappear witnessing the excellence of the new systems and methods. One of the most critically factor is ensuring voluntary and highest participation by the teachers from all the important centers of Karnatik Music practice and appreciation. The preparation should ensure prior incubation of ideas; elimination of self promotion; equal participation; exchange of ideas; and consensus by the participants demonstrating their commitment and dedication to this noble cause.

munirao2001

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Jun 2014, 13:11

Vidyarthi 2014 - An exciting Rasikas.og argument

It would be nice if events could be announced and reported on without a fight.

It would be nice it if the word "teaching" could be mentioned on the forum without what has become the usual rants and arguments.

I'm not, in any way, saying that anybody is not entitled to their sincerely held beliefs and their say: let it be discussed in other threads.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 06 Jun 2014, 07:14

Chi. Ravikiran dear,

Unfortunately, in our country, command over the English language only makes the persons great but not on the subject. That is why no use in trying to convince people writing in an unfamiliar language.

More over, mostly, the honesty and sincerity are also lost much and people are unable to become aware of the loss they are incurring to the society due to their dis-honesty and insincerity. At this juncture, I don’t think that there will be of any use in discussing things to put them on right track.

Self-judgment is always better I think to rely. When I am able to serve our people, though on a very small scale, very honestly, sincerely and efficiently with amazing end-results I need not look back or try to convince people.

However, I shall try my level best to attend any seminar or conference or meeting if arranged and if I am invited to discuss things in respect of the methods in teaching our music. amsharma

chitravina ravikiran · Post by **chitravina ravikiran** » 07 Jun 2014, 08:37

Namaskarams to all. I apologise in advance for this long post!! I fully appreciate an intent in trying to standardise things - in principle. But let's consider the big picture (some parts of which are obvious):

The final session with panel discussions on the recommendation, with an eminent moderator will formulate the final recommendation for active consideration by the relevant authorities.

1. Who are the relevant authorities? There is no one such in any country in the world that I have seen. Even those like USA which have a superb macro-level structure at the Government/public schools levels do not necessarily follow one syllabus. In a country like India, which is more about individuality and micro-cosmic worlds of guru-sishya/small level institutions, is there any single authority?

2. About 2-3 years ago, I was invited to be in the Prime Minister's Core Committee for Music Education in Schools. They asked me to prepare a syllabus from Class I-VIII, which I did and submitted. We'd be lucky if it ever gets implemented after 20 years!!

3. But that syllabus is obviously different from what I have made for specialized students who wish to specialise in music - Perfecting Carnatic Music - Level I, Level II etc. This is widely followed across the world by many gurus and students today. This was the first ever to appear as both E-books and Videos. Exams are taken based on this by students in many parts of the world including USA, Australia, India. In between my performing and composing time, I am working to put the other Levels up.

4. I refined 100s of things that I thought appropriate, based on decades of learning from my father and decades of analytical time spent with legends like Semmangudi, Brindamma, DKP, Lalgudi and numerous other gurus who were gracious enough to share their views on teaching from fundamental levels like whether Mayamalavagowla/Kharaharapriya/Shankarabharanam should be the first raga taught.

5. Even among my students, there are students with different motives - some want to learn only as hobby, some for teaching, some to perform, a select few to pursue the art as an ideal. Then there are people with varying ages, levels of available time, commitments, expressions, capabilities etc. Obviously methods will be fine tuned.

6. Can I follow one syllabus for all - even within those in point number 5? In theory, yes. In reality no. I will make judgement calls every day, every call and see what's best for who and act accordingly. Most gurus with honesty do this and there are thousands who are honest.

7. So, even one guru cannot follow his own syllabus - not because it is impossible to, but it would be unwise to have a blind, military approach to art. Any guru/musician worth his salt will say the same.

8. Certain methods could work in some regions/contexts, like Shri Akella garu's. The greatest example of this is Sangeeta Kalanidhi Prof T Vishwanathan - who revolutionised CM teaching/notating to non-Indians and got them to the level of not only excellent improvisation but also to be able to sing Dikshitar or Kshetragna masterpieces. While Mr John Higgins was a visible example, I have seen scores of his students in Wesleyan University. Prof Trichy Sankaran has done much the same for mrdangam in York University in Toronto. I have seen other local gurus in Philadelphia, San Diego, San Jose, Madison, New Jersay, Los Angeles, London etc who have evolved their own ways to communicate music to NRI children effectively. I have seen that they don't follow one syllabus/approach. As long as it works, hats off!!

9. Today, we have literally 1000s of students with capabilities whose extent even they are not conscious of. Many of the things they do effortlessly that were considered 'tough' even 3 decades ago. This is healthy as long as they will work hard, think deep and evolve. As long as gurus help them do this, what more can one ask for?

10. Like in any other field, there are also average or below average teachers in CM - even among honest ones. The best solution for this was to put up as many lessons in classy versions online on videos, which, I am very glad to say has been appreciated by the artistic community everywhere.

11. This was only possible due to the selfless efforts of the founders of http://www.acharyanet.com who have made lessons from masters like Shri Tanjavur Shankara Iyer, Shri R K Shrikanthan, Shri P S Narayanaswami, Smt Rama Ravi etc available at a fraction of cost than what students would normally spend to learn from them. So far there are introductory courses on Alapana, Tanam, Neraval, Swaras and hundreds of other krtis.

12. To sum it up, a good guru teaches well, keeping all the above in mind. There are 100s of them in various parts of the world!!

A great guru is another species altogether. One such inspires passion for perfection, improves perception towards the art and instills a sense of self-enjoyment from day one, which makes every thing else memorable and effortless. I have been fortunate to interact with such greats, starting with my father, Chitravina Narasimhan and Brindamma.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 07 Jun 2014, 17:14

Chitraveena Ravikiran

1)Relevant authorities are the State and Central Boards and Universities, whose certificates are officially recognized. Students privately studying also take Vidwath/Diploma examinations being conducted and the teachers train such students with the prescribed syllabus.
2) While path breaking individual efforts will continue to give results, collective efforts incorporating the individual creative efforts will lead to good results, universally.
3) My suggestion also for different levels and methods meeting the need and aspiration- which I have posted in my earlier comments. The goal is for all the stakeholders achieve good knowledge and contribute to the development of Karnatic Music practice and appreciation and reach the critical mass levels, in the near future.
4) My suggestion is not for rigid systems and methods of teaching. Teaching with scope for improvisation but definitely based on universal standard. The standard formulated should meet different stakeholders need and aspiration levels, eminently.
5) My suggestion is for a serious and committed review of the present, gain on the various innovative systems and methods successfully tried and well established and the final recommendation for standardization, with excellence.
6) The results of commendable efforts using the technology also aid are in evidence of ever increasing number of students and exceptionally talented performers. What is happening to the music appreciation and support ? Due to the appreciation and support systems lacking to the minimum extent required, meritocracy and success in practice is still uncertain. Only with discerning listeners growing in numbers, Karnatic Music will reach its truly deserving place. With such renewed glory, all the stakeholders will stand to gain and get fulfillment.
7) My ardent desire and fervent hope is that with only few of the Great Maestro teachers living and they can offer their knowledge to perfect the art and science of teaching and practice. Much more initiatives to be taken while the good initiatives already taken must be strengthened with resources.
8) I did discuss with Great Maestro R.K.Srikantan Sir about the need for standardization. He fully appreciated and explained the difficulties in individual efforts. He was highly supportive of collective efforts and offered his support and active participation. We have lost a great treasure. I am translating some of his articles in Kannada on KarnatiK Music in to English. I have heard many of his radio talks. He was a one man treasure house. Great Maestro and your Guru, Chitraveena Narasimhan Sir also welcomed and offered his support. But he advised that it would serve its best if Music Academy takes the lead with select proven maestros and experts. Great Maestro Akella Sharma Sir also fully appreciated and offered his unstinting support.
9) No doubt a good guru teaches well. Popular practitioners attract, average performers distract, Great Maestros inspire a whole generation. The need is to excel in all the aspects of a great art, Karnatik Music. We have compulsion to strengthen the foundation for the edifice of global reach of Karnatic Music, eminently capable of uplifting humanity.
10) As posted already, I have suggested the idea to Karanatka Fine Arts Council, Bengaluru. Shri Raghavan/Nadasurabhi and KFAC informed me that proposal has been referred to the committee for a decision. Further progress, is uncertain as my voice is muted. With your acceptance and other maestros also accepting and collectively propose and discuss with Music Academy and patrons, success is certain.

munirao2001

MVRamanamurthy · Post by **MVRamanamurthy** » 08 Jun 2014, 10:57

I could get nothing (even iota of information) useful from the debate. A deeper in-sight speaks volumes. So called musicians put themselves for an acid introspection to know “whether they are teaching music or songs”. In my view the former is the objective and later is practiced.

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 08 Jun 2014, 13:48

Dear Ramanamurthy,

It looks to me that you do not recognize legends the likes of Sri Lalgudi sir,Sri DK Jayaraman,Sri TN Seshagoplan,Sri Nedunuri and many others who have been successful in presenting many performing artists.Each of the young performers like Sri saketaraman,Vijaya shiva,Neyveli santanagopalan,Sri sanjay subramanyam are not routinely giving out songs like poems.
You seem to have got obsessed with what you have written in your paper and not willing to recognize the expertise handed over by the veteran stalwarts.
The only thing to be noted is that Sri MSakella is running an institution in a place where the so called Carnatic atmosphere is not prevalent and he has demonstrated that young children pick up with minimum teaching.
MS,Phd degrees are already available in many universities and there are many doctorate degree holders in music - Even you may be one of them
I for one do not under estimate your paper,but such degrees are already available.But due to non standard nature of work,there are several controversies when awarding Phd in music.
Music being a creative art perhaps needs a much bigger effort than put for other subjects.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 09 Jun 2014, 15:03

Dear brother-member, hnbhagavan,

In my 75th post I have already furnished the example of Dronacharya along with his indirect disciple Ekalavya and direct disciple Arjuna. This incident obviously reveals that irrespective of the abilities or inabilities of the teacher who teaches all their disciples in the same manner the individual abilities of the disciples only make them outshine but not of the teacher at all.

I am also the disciple of Shri Nedunuri Krishnamurthy and all the knowledge in music what I presently have is his grace only. To tell the fact, only after 5 years after my retirement, in which way I found myself an inefficient teacher, at the same time, I found that Shri Nedunuri also did not teach me in a way he should but I could learn what I need on my own. He always wished to teach me well. But, he, being more of performer’s perspective and far lesser of teacher’s perspective, always used to go on singing on his own for hours together thinking that is the only way to teach. As a legend and a professional-performer he thought that singing itself is the only way of teaching. But, in my deep introspection, having found many other ways also of teaching than merely singing, I could finally find his lacuna in teaching for which he himself could not answer. A true teacher having very high caliber in teaching can only understand this but others very conveniently mistake me instead for which I can’t help. I can prove each and every word of my posts but everybody mistakes me readily as none of them are true teachers.

This applies to all the legends or maestros or experts irrespective of their stature. Even though none of our musicians appreciate me I am compelled to give another example also of the Great Lalgudi G. Jayaraman whom I revere as God of Violin like MSG.

The Great Lalgudi plays Violin with a special and peculiar left-hand-finger-technique. In general, while almost all the Violinists (including myself) play the Gamaka of either Sadharana-gandhara or Kaishiki-nishada with a three-finger-group of index+middle+ring-finger group moving them up and down all together. But, surprisingly enough, while playing them Lalgudi’s index-finger doesn’t move at all but the other two fingers only move up and down together. In my serious observation I found that he was not at all particular in teaching this particular technique to all his students.

As a professional-violin-accompanist I have accompanied many A-grade artists, Top-rank-artists, legends, maestros and experts. In general, any Violin-accompanist will find very little rest-time only in Mridangam-tani as he/she need not accompany any other person at that time. But, unfortunately, in many of the concerts of the artists of the above mentioned stature, many a time, I could not find even this little-rest-time as I had to render the Tala to the Mridangist in the Tani as the main-artist is unable to manage with the Tani. Even in respect of some other legends they want to avail the Mridangam-tani also for their rest. That is the fun.

Like the above, there are so many things which obviously reveal that all these legends or maestros or experts are more of performer’s perspective and far lesser of teacher’s perspective but resort to teaching also thinking themselves great teachers. While reading this post there is every scope of finding fault with me in one way or the other. But, as a critical teacher I feel it as my duty to reveal even some of such facts as the general public cannot make any in-depth study.

Even though I always write only facts many will not and cannot appreciate me as they are very bitter to bear with. In fact, I have brought out many such facts in my book “Gurushishyasamvadamulu (Telugu)’. If you are interested in going through it and send me your email I shall try to send the pdf of it. amsharma

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 09 Jun 2014, 15:29

MVRamanamurthy Sir
You have expressed "I could get nothing (even iota of information) useful from the debate". I am saddened. When the pride and prejudice and conditioning of the mind fills the intellect, no one can get iota of information and also even consider the potential and possibilities in judgement. One information you 'might' have missed is 'need for excellence' in teaching and practice in Karnatic Music. I also want to bring to your attention is 'the need to take Karnatic Music appreciation to critical mass appeal and globalization'. I now leave it to your best judgment to find them useful or not. Through this post, I am also appealing to other forunites having similar opinion to take the cause, debate and action plan, with understanding and in all seriousness.
The Great Maestros/Maestros we are fortunate to have them, are both lakshya and lakshana Vidwans and also Great Teachers, who have proven their class with many talented young musicians developing in to Vidwans of great merits.
Thanks to my father and guru's association and close relationship with many Great Maestros and Maestros, I had the great privilege of listening to them on both lakshya and lakshana aspects of music, spanning three generation-100 years in history. To me, Shri Chitraveena Ravikiran, is the Ideals in Karnatic Music, personified. Neyveli Santhanagopalan, Vijay Siva, T.M.Krishna, Sowmya, Bombay Jayashree, Sriram Parasuram, to name only few of 'younger' Great/Maestros have great knowledge and insights. Let us bring the three generation of Great Maestro/Maestro-Teacher cum Performers along with many experts we are fortunate and privileged to have and achieve excellence in teaching and practice, which ever aspects are innovative and proven along with time tested and proven in unity, seamlessly. In self doubt, we loose. As already mentioned in my early post, the great loss of R.K.Srikantan Sir, due to the delay in getting it organized, a treasure house has been lost, for ever.

munirao2001

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 09 Jun 2014, 16:44

Dear Sri MSAKELLA,Munirao,

Thanks for Akella's response and insight into Sri Lalgudi's violin technique.Being a great musician yourself Sri Akella ji,your opinions are justified.Is it true that now Sri lalgudi's violin technique is lost for ever?I myself a rasika got interested in Music after listening to sri lalgudi sir.I consider sri lalgudi Sir and MSG sir both as gods of violin.
I did not understand why Sri ramana murthy says there was no useful info in the postings.
Please pardon me in case I sounded a bit harsh.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 10 Jun 2014, 11:49

Dear brother-member, hnbhagavan,

As you wrote I am not at all a great musician but an ordinary music-teacher having many failures. After finding myself an inefficient-teacher in my service, after my successful retirement and after having been blessed by the Almighty with a novel method in learning music I have taken the propagation of this method as the only mission of my life. Till now all the musicians have been following the traditional quantitative method only and nobody is even aware of any other method of teaching/learning. That is why nobody is even trying to understand what I am writing are saying of this unbelievable method of learning music.

This novel method is very strictly logical. Except one or two newly formulated items, all the items of the traditional method only are used in this new method also but in a different logical seriatim which invariably instills self-confidence into the aspirant and makes him/her independently work and learn music on his/her own which is unbelievable to the conservatives. Unlike in the traditional method umpteen written or audio or video aids are furnished in this method to be utilized by the aspirants. For Vocal, as there is no fingers’ involvement like in the instruments, this became easier to bring out different written or audio or video aids to be utilized by the aspirants.

But, for the instruments like Violin, as there is much of the fingers’ involvement and this differs even from person to person video-aids play a very important role in learning the instruments. But, as our Gods of Violin, MSG and Lalgudi, being more of performer’s perspective and far lesser of teacher’s perspective, very conveniently ignored to make any relevant videos of their invaluable finger-techniques and preserve them for the posterity. If a critical violinist goes through the old-audio-recordings of them one can very easily find that the Great Lalgudi, having very successfully accompanied the Great GNB in a number of concerts and having also become influenced and inspired by his creative music strived hard to formulate an un-paralleled finger-techniques to bring it out efficiently and successfully with all its nuances. But, most surprisingly, not even a single Chennaite had ever cared to make videos of his Violin-play for the educational purpose for the benefit of the aspirants. Ultimately and very sadly, thus, we all are very unfortunate to have lost all that invaluable treasure for ever. That has been destined and we can’t help.

However, again, only by the grace of the Almighty, I, having very little acquaintance with their finger-techniques, could strive hard up to some extent in formulating some typical finger-exercises, making their videos at this old age and uploading them to the play-list ‘AMS-Violin-lessons’ of ‘youtube.com/user/msakella’ for the benefit of the interested aspirants.

As far my knowledge goes, I sincerely feel that there is a very strict logic behind the selection or mode of playing of the Varnas which paves way for the efficient singing or playing music. amsharma

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 10 Jun 2014, 13:49

Dear Sri MSAKELLA sir,

Thank you for ur reply.indeed your observation that Lalgudi's finger technique should have been archived for educational purposes.It looks that there is total failure in the system and perhaps some of his students should have picked up the technique by observation.I can very well visualize what you are trying to convey.

MVRamanamurthy · Post by **MVRamanamurthy** » 11 Jun 2014, 05:23

Ref: 2 by munirao2001 » 09 Jun 2014 and 4 by hnbhagavan 08 Jun 2014

Dear Munirao, HNBhagaban and Akella Sirs,
As already said there can never be any easy method. All have to research-out how music had born and evolved over centuries. Then if that path is visible, perhaps, what Akella says is one path he researched it out. None can discard on the face value of it, as he also stands among many other towering musical personalities. So kindly understand his method and if good, kindly continue, if not say so to discard. That perhaps what Akella is aiming at and is standing at cross roads by crossing his fingers for your scrutiny. .
All the musical stalwarts that of bye gone era or living, none disputes on their intellect and performance. But in my view they are skilled artists, We need innovative researches too. That what I had ventilated in an invited paper published in the International Journal of Music and Dance. Visit: http://www.academicjournals.org/article ... murthy.pdf

MVRamanamurthy · Post by **MVRamanamurthy** » 11 Jun 2014, 05:26

Ref: 2 by munirao2001 » 09 Jun 2014 and 4 by hnbhagavan 08 Jun 2014

Dear Munirao, HNBhagaban and Akella Sirs,
As already said there can never be any easy method. All have to research-out how music had born and evolved over centuries. Then if that path is visible, perhaps, what Akella says is one path he researched it out. None can discard on the face value of it, as he also stands among many other towering musical personalities. So kindly understand his method and if good, kindly continue, if not say so to discard. That perhaps what Akella is aiming at and is standing at cross roads by crossing his fingers for your scrutiny. .
All the musical stalwarts that of bye gone era or living, none disputes on their intellect and performance. But in my view they are skilled artists, We need innovative researches too. That what I had ventilated in an invited paper published in the International Journal of Music and Dance. Visit: http://www.academicjournals.org/article ... murthy.pdf