sangatigaL

sung · Post by **sung** » 24 Jun 2014, 21:03

While watching Super Singer, I heard the judges refer to sangatigaL often. From the context I am guessing that this Tamil term means gamakas. Is my guess correct? If it is wrong, what does this term mean? Thanks in advance for any response.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 24 Jun 2014, 21:46

The same line in a song, repeated with different notes (with gamakams too), is a set of sangathis: first sangathi, second sangathi and so on, and in vAtapi gaNapathim bhajE, seventh or eight sangathi

sung · Post by **sung** » 25 Jun 2014, 03:25

arasi wrote:The same line in a song, repeated with different notes (with gamakams too), is a set of sangathis: first sangathi, second sangathi and so on, and in vAtapi gaNapathim bhajE, seventh or eight sangathi

Thank you, arasi. So, sangatigaL refers to the variations of a given line in a song.

Is there any other term used to mean sangatigaL? If I remember right, I have only heard the term 'variations' used by my carnatic music teachers. I am wondering whether there is any term specific to carnatic music used by its teachers, which I probably forget. I never heard the term 'sangatigaL' used to refer to the variations.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 25 Jun 2014, 06:24

I would ask the experts!

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 25 Jun 2014, 08:34

Before experts say the right things, let me add my ignorance.
I heard that the particular swara chain used to sing a line (say pallavi) is predetermined by the composer and is called sangati. Different swara chains are composed for the same pallavi. PSN said that SSI has added new sangatis to many songs. For example, Vatapi.. had fewer sangatis composed by Dikshitar himself. This is part of kalpita muisc.
In neraval also, the singer introduces variations, but it is not called sangati. It is called neraval! It is kalpana music.
Enakku therincha varai ithuthaan sangati.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 25 Jun 2014, 11:28

Sung,
I am not an expert. I am sharing my understanding.
Sangati- 'Sa'-'Am'-'Gati'. Maatu with improvisational dhaatu, either by the original vaggeyakara (creator) or by the artist of a line ( usually a very significant). The improvisation is conditional as indicated in 'Sa'-'Am'-'Gati'. The condition is the improvisation must enhance the 'bhaava'-emotion and 'rasa'-aesthetic with sattva guna - selfless, not with other gunas of tamasa and rajasa-Ahamkara, the individual sense and also must be in the gati maarga of the line. Great Maestros with deep thinking, bhakti and saadhana creatively add sangatis. With its values appreciated, their disciples and other artists adopt them, becoming a baani of the creator and his school of music. Time tested, Excellence in the sangatis become the tradition. Sangati trivialization also do occur, as the work of ahamkara, but either rejected or fades out of memory or may leave a trace of impression with few other artists its adaptation.

This the hallmark of excellence and unique aspect of the Indian Classical Music - original composition with potentialities and possibilities for the later improvisational creativity.

munirao2001

sung · Post by **sung** » 26 Jun 2014, 19:32

munirao2001 wrote:Sung,
I am not an expert. I am sharing my understanding.
Sangati- 'Sa'-'Am'-'Gati'. Maatu with improvisational dhaatu, either by the original vaggeyakara (creator) or by the artist of a line ( usually a very significant). The improvisation is conditional as indicated in 'Sa'-'Am'-'Gati'. The condition is the improvisation must enhance the 'bhaava'-emotion and 'rasa'-aesthetic with sattva guna - selfless, not with other gunas of tamasa and rajasa-Ahamkara, the individual sense and also must be in the gati maarga of the line. Great Maestros with deep thinking, bhakti and saadhana creatively add sangatis. With its values appreciated, their disciples and other artists adopt them, becoming a baani of the creator and his school of music. Time tested, Excellence in the sangatis become the tradition. Sangati trivialization also do occur, as the work of ahamkara, but either rejected or fades out of memory or may leave a trace of impression with few other artists its adaptation.

This the hallmark of excellence and unique aspect of the Indian Classical Music - original composition with potentialities and possibilities for the later improvisational creativity.

Thank you. I understand.

Like I said in my original post, I heard this term used in Super Singer by the judges in reference to the singing of film songs by the contestants. So, in this context of film music at least it simply means 'variations' of a given line in the lyrics, correct?

Also, I assumed that it is a Tamil term. Is it actually a Sanskrit term?

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 27 Jun 2014, 11:26

sung
'Sangati' is originally a Sanskrit word and adopted in other languages, intact in terms of word and its meaning.

If the referred Super Singer program is based on the film music, the playback singer and subsequent singers of that particular creative composition, the singer must strictly vocalize as per the notation/written music of the original composer. The singer's exhibition of the talent and excellence is with regard to the perfection of the words/lyric, expression of emotion in the content of the word(s) (apt for the situation) and giving the modulation suiting to the lips synchronization of the actor on whom the song is being pictured. But music directors do give the freedom in a restricted manner to the singer, whose talent and quality in singing gives the confidence to the composer. All these are strictly with regard to the original recording. The live performances do give scope for the limited and apt variation by the 'popular' singer(s). If the contestant performs a variation, it represent either a non conformance, consciously or unconsciously, a deficiency in learning, practicing and its performance. But if the quality is observed in the variation, it is appreciated. Variation in this context is once again the feel of the emotion/bhava or in the svara(s). We must note and appreciate total rejection of 'apa sabda' of the singer in film music. During the recording, composer will order for a retake. In live performance, the singer will be duly notified this serious aberration, by any one connected with this composition.

munirao2001

anandasangeetham · Post by **anandasangeetham** » 27 Jun 2014, 13:18

on a lighter note

two rasikas talking: Enna intha vidwan neraya sangati padaraar...intha keertahanela ivlo sangati kedayathe...

avar evlo sangati venalum padattum...ana thala sariya pottu padattummm neraya sangati poderannu solli "some Gathi" la pada vendam.....

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 27 Jun 2014, 15:51

Thanks in advance for any response.

Thanks for asking a question i would have hesitated to ask .
I come from the shallow end of the pool too . Though interested in the subject just as a listener.

So I expect my inputs will be sketchy, and probably defective too
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/ks5teibg2fq7a/sangathi

I thinkthat after accounting for the alapana ( which in my opinion has to steer clear of sangathis traceable to krithis -to be of higher merit) ) and the neraval and swaraprastharas , ALL THE REST of the things that transpire in a rendering are various shades/ components of sangathis.

This where it gets closer to the way HM handles thumris.

The flat vs oscillating note stuff is more of a cliche .Boils down to the various ways one wants to express.

Then there is the well trodden path which is the aim of most practioners
Then there is the concert specific over reach
and then there is the school of music vs avant garde issues

I have put a couple of tracks as samples for discussion
1 -is what I refer to as school related
2-3 are what I call chalk vs cheese ( I eat both )
the manasuloni track makes me think sangathis can extend to swaras too .
Probably GNB sang it this way first .BMK's version might have been inspired by this .Yet has his stamp of authority.

The rAmA nI samAnamevaru - kharaharapriyA - tyAgarAja - T Brinda track is , well... All this in a nut shell

It is such a fun for the likes of me to be a rasika /
We . who never learn it straight .
Always the test first and lesson later .

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 30 Jun 2014, 19:29

varsha
Manodharma, the creative character and quality of an art musician are expressed in the creative tools of raaga alaapana;tana;neraval;svarakalpana. The challenge to the performing artist(s) is-manodharma- confining within the limits of chosen composition or not bound within the confines of the composition-raaga bhava and saahithya bhava.
Sangati ornamentation by the artist and its acceptance by the other artists becomes the tradition with value addition. Sangati ornamentation only for excitement is not a value addition.
You have said " The flat vs oscillating note stuff is more of a cliche .Boils down to the various ways one wants to express." No Sir. The unique quality and hallmark of Karnatik Music is based on the gamakams, oscillation notes. The demand for perfection of anusvara in the gamaka is very challenging but its achievement makes a Vidvan to become a maestro. Karnatik Music also demands perfection of the pure note. Rasikas also have to be knowledgeable to recognize and appreciate this quality in a maestro. Fact is this is lacking. Majority of the performers with desire to gain and retain popularity, they would not invest in the sadhana for its mastery and application and they achieve very great success as performers. Very few maestros with this ideal and uncompromising in their delivery, suffer in ignominy with a label of 'musician of musicians'. One has to arrive at the value judgment only with sastra and sampradaya conformance or non conformance.

munirao2001

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 01 Jul 2014, 07:24

what does this term mean?

Dear Munirao2001
Let us keep in focus the question asked by the OP to start this thread . So Please direct your feelings about all issues in classical music etc in the context of the question.
It is an unhappy trend in this forum to vent out feelings / opinions unrelated to the original question.
And some intrusions - like in the Vidyarthi workshop thread , or the Acharyanet lessons thread - are simply not in the spirit of our times . That has to stop.The painting of a picture that all teachers other than ME / MINE , are a bunch of incompetent,obsolete sharks.
Now to the specific points you raised with me ....
1.The fact that something is more of a cliche means that it was accepted by me as truth .But there was more to it.
So in this this case there is more to cm-hm analyses that just harping on hm=flat notes .That is what I meant
2.One gets to a point where one needs to express beyond a well trodden path . The track which your Father sings -22 in one of the samples I put - is like the position of a star in the galaxy which a mariner looks up to , on high seas in the dark of a stormy night.
The track where -33- BMK sings the same lines is the point I wanted to make about dreamers .Dreamers who in a different age try to travel to the star.
3.The track - 11 - of Chittoor was meant to attract attention towards a school that is getting extinct - a bigger matter of concern.
And so on etc etc.
Let our deliberations be evolving in nature , lest the likes of sung lose interest.
I dont claim to be trained in music except to having watched Thanjavur Sankar Iyer teach students within ear shot - for a couple of years.And listen to HM along with him for long periods in silence.My exchanges with the Master could fill a book .

Sookshma was the element I was taught to look for - those fine strands that are not immediately visible to the naked eye. And the need for slowing down the pace , the astounding capabilities of composers as evinced in CM as compared to any other genre , and so on . And the mind boggling display as evinced in the last track.

I guess we all talk of the same thing but It would be in the fitness of our times to develop a thread with the original poster in mind - especially if it is youngster learning afresh.

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 01 Jul 2014, 08:26

Dr.Ramanathan 022-baNTurIti_kolu_viyavayya-hamsanAdam-tyAgarAja-28+ mts

http://mfi.re/listen/ado5mm3tx08lj5t/Dr ... nathan.mp3

MMI 112-Sabhapathikku veru deivam Abhohi-GB Brathiar

http://mfi.re/listen/0c1v10micjk39i7/MM ... athiar.mp3

Some of the best sangathies, I happened to come across....

கிருபாநிதி...
இவரை போல சங்கதி பாட முடியுமா?

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 01 Jul 2014, 11:21

Varsha
No doubt the posting is a reply to the question raised. When some issues are raised, reply also needs to be posted to the other perspective for a value judgment. Ultimate judgment should be based on the enrichment, upliftment and celebration of excellence, verily the Tradition in the Indian Classical Music.

munirao2001

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 01 Jul 2014, 13:48

In the 2 songs posted, is it not neraval rather than sangati?

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 01 Jul 2014, 20:00

is it not neraval rather than sangati?

yes . and the reason is I wanted to illustrate what Iwrote a sentence before.

the manasuloni track makes me think sangathis can extend to swaras too .

reply also needs to be posted to the other perspective

Thanks . I now get it.
Will wait for the experts to pitch in . As of now , Sangathi is what I relate to when
say
1) M Chandru starts an alapana playing aline kantikee sundara or paratpa5ra parameswara
2) I get a feeling that the vocalist is definitely going to sing upacAramu cEsE whe they are still at alapana stage.
Distinctly remember TKR remarking to the audience in one of his concerts:
Look how he ( referring to Lalgudi ) is nudging me and indicating that I have not sung all the sangathis (through his violin.play)
Sareeda unakkage padren and rewinds a bit .

Anyway I have exhausted my ammunition. Wonder if sung is still interested

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 01 Jul 2014, 23:33

Here is 'dArini telusukoNTi' by Maharajapuram Santanam.

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=B ... ile%2c.mp3

Please listen to the first line 'dArini telusukoNTi sundari ninnE SaraNaNTi', - sung as 'dArini telusukoNTi sun...dArini telusukoNTi' - making mince-meat of the meaning of the line. In this case, it would have been better to repeat 'dArini telusukoNTi' only.

My simple suggestion - please do not look for sangatis without knowing the meaning and underlying bhAva. But all that matters is the 'musical excellence' - who cares about bhAva? TMK says 'I don't care about the words - I am interested only in the syllables'. That is the attitude prevalent now.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 02 Jul 2014, 12:50

varsha
In raaga alaapana, it is not sangati. It is sanchaara-movement of notes. At times artist, a moorchana or phrase is delineated containing all the notes in a sangati-either as artist expression of appreciation or hinting the composition is going to perform, ahead.
munirao2001

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 02 Jul 2014, 13:28

vgovindan Sir

Yes Sir, in Karnatik Music, raaga bhaava and saahithya bhaava are equally important. It is because, in saahithya, sangita is goohyam-secretive,bhaava and similarly in sangita, the saahithya is goohyam-secretive-bhaavam. This abstractions are made explicit by the poet or singer with their paandithya prakatana. The 'Chandhas' in saahithya is also meant for musical thought besides the meter in the line. The svara sanchara kalpana in the raaga aalaapana of the artists will be based on his experience of emotion related to the saahithya bhaava. But in art music, with the objective of rasika ranjakatva, the primacy is for sangita over saahithya.

The correct saahithya of the song referred by you is "Darini telesukonti, Sundarininne sarananti" Not "Daarini..........." A profound statement of realization of his ' limitation'
and 'daasya' bhaava. With wrong understanding profundity gave in to a 'statement' of 'found the way'. This is the way of artists...

munirao2001

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 02 Jul 2014, 20:21

muniraoji,
It is a misconception to say 'darini telusukoNTi'. It is indeed 'dArini'. I have explained in my blog -
http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.in ... konti.html

'darini' is an interpolation by musicians in order to create sangati.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 02 Jul 2014, 20:45

Sri T S Parthasarathi has given it only as 'Dharini தரிநி'. He gives the meaning as 'refuge' 'புகலிடம்'. He is considered an authority on Thyagaraja.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 02 Jul 2014, 23:50

kvc,
I am sorry. He is wrong. Let it be very clear that the word is 'dAri' meaning path.
It is absurd to give the meaning 'refuge' when connecting to anupallavi and all the caraNas - the ending words of these are -
anupallavi - moksha (dArini) (path of moksha) - it cannot be 'refuge of mOksha'.
caraNa 1 - OlalADucuNDE (dArini) (path of sporting) - it cannot be 'refuge of sporting'
caraNa 2 - nityAnandulaina (dArini) (path of having become eternally blissful) - it cannot be 'refuge of becoming eternally blissful'.
caraNa 3 - mukti mArgamanukona (dArni) (path assumed to lead to mukti) - it cannot be 'refuge assumed to lead to mukti'.

Does it look blasphemous to contradict TSP?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 03 Jul 2014, 07:59

I do not know, but it can be the ultimate for everything also rather than path; I do not see it being inapposite. We will leave it here and check with the composer and TSP when our time comes.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 03 Jul 2014, 08:57

We will leave it here and check with the composer and TSP when our time comes.

kvc
You may like to carry this poem along...Good Luck and have a great time until then
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/178711

Song of the Open Road
By Walt Whitman
.....
From this hour I ordain myself loos’d of limits and imaginary lines,
Going where I list, my own master total and absolute,
Listening to others, considering well what they say,
Pausing, searching, receiving, contemplating,
Gently,but with undeniable will, divesting myself of the holds that would hold me.
I inhale great draughts of space,
The east and the west are mine, and the north and the south are mine.
......

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 03 Jul 2014, 09:13

Thank you. I am happy about my post since it drew an erudite response from you as usual.

kittappa · Post by **kittappa** » 03 Jul 2014, 11:07

It is dArini. Look at the first akShara of anupallavi, 'mAruni janakuDaina........ mA is dhIrga, therefore the first word of pallavi also should be dhIrga, hence dArini not darini. TSP's book contains many howlers. He is not perfect.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 03 Jul 2014, 13:13

vgovindan Sir
Understanding the 'prasa' adherence (Tyagaraja's strict observance) in Pallavi and Charanam, it can not be 'Darini'. Thank you Sir.

munirao2001

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 03 Jul 2014, 20:36

Prasa-anuprAsa - what about meaning Sirs?
Thank you. I am not interested in further dispute. I have made my point.

PS : Sorry for a hasty response without realizing 'dArini' is justified from prAsa angle too.

sung · Post by **sung** » 07 Jul 2014, 17:31

varsha wrote:Let us keep in focus the question asked by the OP to start this thread .

The following quotes from some recent episodes of Super Singer Junior 4 might help.

(1) While commenting on one of the contestants, Arjun, the voice expert on this program, Anand, said: "Arjun has a hard natural voice. So, sangatigaL romba kashTamA pEsardu."
(2) After another contestant, Karthika, finished rendering her song, one of the judges, K S Chitra, said: "Clarity-ODa sangatigaL varanum tonDaiyilE." To emphasize, I think, the same point, another judge, Manoj, said: "Clarity-ODa note varanum. Note perfection achieve paNNanum."
(3) While commenting on the contestant, Sharan, Anand said: "anda kuralla base irundAtAn poDi sangatigaL vizhum. anda base-kkum poDi sangatigaLukkum oru sambandam irukku."
(4) On yet another contestant, Anushya, Anand said: "anushyAvukku kuralla sangatigaL hard-A romba chest-iyA vanduTTu irundatu."

I really hope the above statements will help the experts here to figure the actual meaning in which this term 'sangatigaL' is used. In another program, Sun Singer, also I hear this term used frequently. Although earlier I thought this term might mean gamakas, now I feel that it might just mean notes. If so, what are poDi sangatigaL? Low-frequency notes? Well, I am really not clear as to what this term might mean. Any help is deeply appreciated as I very much like to know what different meanings this term has barring all the wonderful nuances members have ascribed to this term so far in the context of carnatic music concerts.

Incidentally, what is OP?

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 07 Jul 2014, 18:24

sung
Sangatigal in film music and playback singing and Classical music differs. In film music it is totally kalpita -preset or premeditated for the singer, including the svaras/notes. The creativity is of the composer. Play back singer and subsequent singers of the same song have to keep svaras/notes of every line in the lyrics strictly as per the composer/music director. Voice intonation, dynamics, clarity in utterance of the words and its bhava and also expression in line with the actor and the situation- these factors give the playback singer to exhibit the talent. Hence the sangati in this context is the line as composed and sung by the original singer consisting of svarams, birkhas, if any, sthayee-mandara, madhyama and tara, jarus, emotions of both the raga and sahithya bhavams.

munirao2001

sung · Post by **sung** » 07 Jul 2014, 19:38

munirao2001 wrote:Hence the sangati in this context is the line as composed and sung by the original singer consisting of svarams, birkhas, if any, sthayee-mandara, madhyama and tara, jarus, emotions of both the raga and sahithya bhavams.

If so, what are poDi sangatigaL? Thanks.

sung · Post by **sung** » 07 Jul 2014, 19:49

munirao2001 wrote:Hence the sangati in this context is the line as composed and sung by the original singer consisting of svarams, birkhas, if any, sthayee-mandara, madhyama and tara, jarus, emotions of both the raga and sahithya bhavams.

If sangatigaL has such a very broad definition, what specific message can each of these young children (contestants) can take from the constructive comments meant for their improvement? Given that, I assume it has a more specific definition. Can any experts familiar with its usage in the film industry help?

Also, I assume the voice expert (Anand) explains to these young children, while coaching them off stage, what this term actually means, given how complex a discussion can surround this term as evidenced in this thread.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 07 Jul 2014, 19:58

OP Original Poster
Person who starts the topic

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 07 Jul 2014, 22:42

given how complex a discussion can surround this term as evidenced in this thread

It was a complex discussion indeed, as it happens with any topic in our forum. But
don't go by that to evaluate the complexity of the subject matter. At least in this case it is not. Had you given the examples you had given recently, all that is needed is what munirao says for the meaning of the word as used in film context.

Without making it complex and without attempting to dig through semantics of every possible utterance these judges made, all this means is the line as sung in the original film song.

Podi sangathi: Since there is no universal dictionary for these kinds of things, my best guess is that it just means "nuNukkam" ("details"), of the small inflections and other details that exist in the line that are typically hard to notate but can be practiced by paying close attention to the line. At the lower frequencies (bass), it is hard to reproduce it clearly since the changes are closely packed but if not done right, it is easy to hear that it is not quite right.

(Tangential point: In CM there are poDI swaras. These are absolutely essential for the raga bhava but they are not strictly subjected to any aro/ava based syntax. Beautilful ragas like Bhairavi would not be Bhairavi without such poDi swaras. Have a student play the first line of viribONi as notated but without any poDI swaras. Ready to be horrified how unrecognizable it will be from Bhairavi.)

sung · Post by **sung** » 08 Jul 2014, 00:30

varsha wrote:OP Original Poster
Person who starts the topic

Thanks. Makes sense now.

sung · Post by **sung** » 08 Jul 2014, 00:45

vasanthakokilam wrote:Podi sangathi: Since there is no universal dictionary for these kinds of things, my best guess is that it just means "nuNukkam" ("details"), of the small inflections and other details that exist in the line that are typically hard to notate but can be practiced by paying close attention to the line. At the lower frequencies (bass), it is hard to reproduce it clearly since the changes are closely packed but if not done right, it is easy to hear that it is not quite right.

Even before I saw this post by vk, I was thinking of sharing the following that I heard today on the Super Singer Junior 4 program.

The voice expert, Anand, said to a contestant, Sunanda, after her singing a song by P Susila: "anda sangatigaL susila ammAvODa sangatigaL. It is a rare kind of speed she gets. adAn poDi sangatigaL-nu solluvOm. adu ungaLuDaiya (that is, Sunanda's) tone-ukku romba poruttamAna sangatigaL. You have to readopt [couldn't understand what he said here in spite of trying to hear it a few times]. inda 2 kuralODa rosolution we have to search. kaDaisIla (that is, eventually) you should have one beautiful voice. I am sure you will have."

He seems to define poDi sangatigaL here by invoking speed.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Jul 2014, 01:07

Too much dissection kills an already killed pig??

Now, what does that mean??
Having said that, I'm scratching my head...And, please don't try to analyze that statement or find some 'poDi (since it's sort of goes with CM, mUkkup poDi-snuff), or from 'poDi vaithup pEsudalal (speaking with some hidden meaning)

The expression 'a hippopotamus rolling a pea' comes in handy now...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 08 Jul 2014, 01:24

Perhaps the word sangati just refers (loosely) to "musical phrase" - and thus can be used to refer to a phrase in an alapana, or a particular iteration of a line or even just a portion of a particular iteration.

Arun

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 08 Jul 2014, 01:43

I agree with Arun's interpretation that sangati has a more generic meaning.

In common parlance for e.g., Sangati is used as an indexical that is context-specific. When you ask of someone: enna sangati (as in, what's up)? I take it to mean, "what is your interpretation of the world today?"

As the bard notes in Nadha sudha rasambilanu: sarasa sangati sandarbhamu gala giramulurA!
To quote from Sri Govindan's site: "sweet (sarasa) thematic variations (sangati) are the words (giramulu) (spoken by the Lord) (giramulurA) appropriate to the occasion (sandarbhamu gala)".

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Jul 2014, 01:57

Here are the various contextual meanings for this sanskrit word

http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?scri ... rection=AU

So be careful about saying things like 'how about another sangati'. Context matters

sung · Post by **sung** » 08 Jul 2014, 03:19

vasanthakokilam wrote:Here are the various contextual meanings for this sanskrit word
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?scri ... rection=AU

Interesting! None of the 20 or so meanings given seems to do with music unless I missed something.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Jul 2014, 03:35

Arun,
Thanks for chiming in.

VK,
'Going with', 'in association' are two meanings which are appropriate as far as I can discern.

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 08 Jul 2014, 04:49

As a Tamil word, it has the desired meaning !
As per Tamil Lexicon:-

சங்கதி caṅkati : (page 1222)
, n. < saṅgati. 1. Affair, news; சமாசாரம். 2. Matter, fact; விஷயம். 3. (Mus.) Short flourishes introduced in a melody; இசைவிகற்பம். 4. Connection, relation; சம்பந்தம். கீழ் ஒருபடி சங்கதி சொல்லிக் கொண்டு போந்தோம் (ஈடு, 4, 6, ப்ர.).

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Jul 2014, 04:50

mahavishnu wrote: In common parlance for e.g., Sangati is used as an indexical that is context-specific. When you ask of someone: enna sangati (as in, what's up)? I take it to mean, "what is your interpretation of the world today?"

Mahavishnu, true with 'what is up' Are we really asking for info or it is just a conversation starter just like 'enna vishayam/visEsham or 'Vishayam sollu'.
Which of course elicits an automatic first response 'ummm.. Nothing much'

The closest dictionary meaning is Questioning for further information / knowledge
but only if we treat the question literally.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Jul 2014, 04:55

Thanks PB. Yes, it is closer tothe way CM uses it ( since it refers to variations through flourishes to a line ) and not the way film music people seem to use it.

What does 'கீழ் ஒருபடி சங்கதி சொல்லிக் கொண்டு போந்தோம்' mean? Is it an example usage only for the 4th meaning or in general?

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 08 Jul 2014, 05:34

Yes, it an example for the 4th meaning.
It seems this usage appears in tiruvAimozhi vyAkyAnam.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Jul 2014, 06:45

PB,
You got it right--and it's the tamizh sangathi in your highlighted meaning, pertaining to music that the judges are talking about (not in the que pasa? sense, of course).

An aside on pONdAr: in ellE iLangiLiyE, ANDAL uses pONdAr and you may be familiar with that: ellArum pONdArO pOndAr pOl eNNikkoL, vallAnaik konRAnai mATRArai mATRazhikkavallAnaip pADElOrembAvAI.

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 08 Jul 2014, 07:13

Yes. pOndAr is a familiar word.
- puRamE pOndOm - tiruvAcakam tirushatakam
- orunAT pOndAr - tiruttoNDar purANam
- pOnDar pugavaNaidAr - shaiva tirumuRai
etc.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Jul 2014, 07:25

We better adjourn to the Languages section now!

PB, Exciting news! May be you, Ponbhairavi, Thanjavooran, Sridhar Ranga and others can be at MA on July 24th. See Pasupathy's post about it in the Nostalgia thread

sung · Post by **sung** » 08 Jul 2014, 18:55

Pratyaksham Bala wrote:As a Tamil word, it has the desired meaning!
As per Tamil Lexicon:-
சங்கதி caṅkati : (page 1222)
, n. < saṅgati. 3. (Mus.) Short flourishes introduced in a melody

Thank you very much, PB.

The word 'flourish' as a noun refers in this context to an act of brandishing dramatically, namely waving (as of a weapon), a decoration or embellishment, and a conspicuous display to impress others.

Thus, given the above meaning in Tamil Lexicon, sangati is a short musical phrase with a waving characteristic intended as a decoration or embellishment in order to be impressive.

Well, it seems to me that sangati then refers to gamakam, which is what I initially suspected it might refer to as I indicated in my original post. poDi sangati seems to refer to gamakam associated with a characteristic speed (as exhibited by, for example, P Susila, according to the voice expert Anand).

Any comments on this are heartily welcome.