sangatigaL

[rshankar]

poDi sangati and other kinds of sangati's notwithstanding, I think, an excerpt from an analysis of Sri tyAgarAja's kRtis (probably in the book by Dr. Raghavan, I forget) is what helped me understand the concept of 'sangati' in its usual meaning - the author states that the practice of singing the same line/phrase differently evolved fully under Sri tyAgarAja, and that this concept of repeating it differently each time, called a sangati, served to really define the rAga svarUpa (and provide examples of approved phrases to be used etc.) as Sri tyAgarAja envisioned it. Furthermore, this analysis stated that compositions from composers that preceded him were either bereft of such repetitions/sangatis (with lines/phrases sung only once or twice, and identically, if more than once).

IMO, a sangati therefore is not a short musical flourish - it is much more. A poDi sangati may be a short flourish.

Hopefully, Keerthi can help us understand this point better.

[vasanthakokilam]

Ravi, that makes perfect sense and I like the way you put it/paraphrased it since it captures both what it is and what it is for. That is how it is used in CM currently.

sung's question is about the meaning as used by these film music people.

[sung]

sung's question is about the meaning as used by these film music people.

That is right.

Of course, in the very beginning itself, arasi gave the meaning as variations and now Ravi has supported it very well. I do understand this meaning, but the problem is that when we analyze the sentences in which these film music people use the term, this meaning doesn't always seem to fit well. There ought to be some other meaning.

Does anyone on the forum know any of these film music people? If so and if possible, a direct check with them and then posting their response here would help a lot to settle this.

Thanks in advance.

[rshankar]

Does anyone on the forum know any of these film music people? If so and if possible, a direct check with them and then posting their response here would help a lot to settle this.

I am only aware of one instance where I have heard the word sangati used in the context of film music: by Madurai Sri GS Mani, and he used the term in the CM sense.

[sung]

Does anyone on the forum know any of these film music people? If so and if possible, a direct check with them and then posting their response here would help a lot to settle this.

Typing the above made me look for the contact info online for Vijay TV. I have sent them the question asking them to find the answer from the 3 judges and the voice expert and let me know. If they are kind enough to get back with me, I will share the response here.

In the meantime, if anyone finds the answer from any of the film music people, please share. Thanks.

[sung]

I am only aware of one instance where I have heard the word sangati used in the context of film music: by Madurai Sri GS Mani, and he used the term in the CM sense.

Might want to see my posts, #29 and #36.

[vasanthakokilam]

I roped in my good friend who is pretty deep into film music. He sings film songs and follows the sangatigal related to film music. Here is what he has to say. It is much closer to the tamil dictionary definition and what 'sung' had already figured out than how we use it in CM.
-------------------------------------
sangati/Sangatigal/ - In light music it always refers to swaram/gamakkam/underlying notes. In other words, in the song Nenjam Marapadhilai rendered very nicely by Priyanka (link below), the opening alap is referred to as Sangati. It need not be just alap but can be an embedded twist in the notes in pallavi/charanam or any portion for that matter. At the end, one of the judge Sadhana Sargam comments "some sangatis you have taken so effortlessly and nice".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7Nvr4ChFrk

Here is another superb rendering of Chinna Chinna Vanna Kuyil from the same singer. Like for e.g., the hidden twist/gamakkam on Chinna Chinna or Mannavan Perai Solli or Maalai Soodi or Kaana Kaana is referred to as podi sangati.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blziOlDCyo8

So, directionally, podi sangathi is small and fleeting twists that are there and a sangathi would be a bigger and more apparent such twists/gamakams.

I believe, voice expert Anant thinks that if one has a good bass voice, its easy to bring out Podi Sangathi clearly. In a way, he is right, its usually hard to bring out the Podi Sangathi clearly for any singer. If the singer has a good bass voice (like for e.g., Hariharan, SPB, Yesudas) their Podi Sangathi is clearly audible. My take is e.g., Mano, Unni K, Sreenivas (no offence) are not in the same league as for the bass voice, so their Podi Sangathi's are not as audible or clear as the other stalwarts.

I think, I have heard this supersinger song which Anant is referring to as fast-paced with Podi Sangatigal but cannot recall. If you can remind me the exact song I can comment further. E.g., I can think of is the song, Manavane Azhalama...Kannirai Vidalama... has so many hidden podi sangathis rendered in a fast-paced manner.

But in general, P. Susila is the best at Podi Sangathi and its usually not even felt clearly until you attempt singing it (like for e.g., Athaan..Ennathaan.. The twist she gives after the first Athaan is something unique and difficult to mimic). As a side-bar, listen to this wonder kid Spoorthi (a Kannadiga by origin) singing the master piece Unnai Naan Sandhithean. Watch KS Chitra correcting on the Podi Sangadhi in Sandhithean...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SthE3daYZAg

Another good one, Palinginal Oru Maligai by Spoorthi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF7bcEGkd1g
------------------

[arasi]

VK and others,
This has been an interesting thread which Sung started. My wondering initially about too much analysis was not warranted, I realize!

There is so much to cinema music, and the expressions are intriguing too. Sangathi is a different sangathi there, it seems!

Strangely enough, just now, I came across this sangathi thing in the context of CM. Do we need another thread for that? Let me know...

[sung]

I roped in my good friend who is pretty deep into film music. He sings film songs and follows the sangatigal related to film music. Here is what he has to say. ...

VK, thank you very much for taking the time to contact your friend and find out the response to my burning question.

Not meant to be a flatter at all - you are simply amazing, as always! You sincerely try to understand the question asked and try your level best to help. Thank you again from the bottom of my heart.

[sung]

So, directionally, podi sangathi is small and fleeting twists that are there and a sangathi would be a bigger and more apparent such twists/gamakams.
I believe, voice expert ... the other stalwarts.
I think, I have heard this supersinger song which Anant is referring to as fast-paced with Podi Sangatigal but cannot recall. If you can remind me the exact song I can comment further. E.g., I can think of is the song, Manavane Azhalama...Kannirai Vidalama... has so many hidden podi sangathis rendered in a fast-paced manner.
But in general, P. Susila is the best at Podi Sangathi and its usually not even felt clearly until you attempt singing it (like for e.g., Athaan..Ennathaan.. The twist she gives after the first Athaan is something unique and difficult to mimic).

VK, sure, I can remind you of the exact song. Here is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buxrR3bqHB0. Sunanda, the third singer of the day, starts to sing P Susila's song around 19:20 min and the voice expert Anand starts to make his comment and defines poDi sangatigaL around 23:55 min. Eager to hear your further comments.

[mahavishnu]

Not meant to be a flatter at all - you are simply amazing, as always! You sincerely try to understand the question asked and try your level best to help. Thank you again from the bottom of my heart.

Amen to that. That's our VK He embodies the sincere spirit of participation in this forum!

[arasi]

Without any doubt.
Janitor supreme too

[rshankar]

+1

[vasanthakokilam]

Oh, you are all too kind. Thanks.

Sunanda, the third singer of the day, starts to sing P Susila's song around 19:20 min and the voice expert Anand starts to make his comment and defines poDi sangatigaL around 23:55 min. Eager to hear your further comments.

Here are the comments from my friend after he listened to the song.
--------------
I listened to Sunandha's rendering and Ananth's comments. Susila's fast paced singing and Podi Sangathi's are two different things. What Ananth is saying is Susila gets these Podi Sangathigal at a rare kind of fast-pace and it suits her voice tone. He adds on to say its easy to strike these podi sangathis with the head-voice but you need to re-adapt to do it with the chest voice. Further, "we need to search for the resolution on both these voices (head and chest) and finally after some practice they should blend into one beautiful voice". I believe what he is saying is both her head and chest voice resolution needs improvement.

Here is the link to the original, you can see the podi sangathis all over the Pallavi, right after Kurinjiyile.... and Poo Malarndhu.... Kulungudhadi....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POpJgopo0D0

Usually, the podi sangathi's are attempted at slow speed for audibility e.g., Nilave Enidam Nerungathe by PBS, you can see them at the very end of the Pallavis (each time he does it different but always as hidden Podi Sangathi's). Also, at the end of the Charanams (each time differently). Makes the rendering so rare and unique making it difficult for anyone to imitate/reproduce perfectly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8MYbZVETDU
----------------

[varsha]

That's our VK He embodies the sincere spirit of participation in this forum!

The compliment comes with a gift too.

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/057knxo ... 8/Mali.mp3

Mali urging listeners to request as many ragas as they want .And to a reticent bunch, he urges : this is not emergency or a workshop - let in, a bit of madness.
A priceless excerpt in many ways and a great sample of T Rukminis prowess

[sung]

Here are the comments from my friend after he listened to the song.-----------

VK, wow! Your friend's explanations coupled with the examples have made it very clear as to the usage of the term poDi sangatigaL. Thank you so much and please convey my special thanks to him.

An important advantage of such understanding is that it allows one to pay close and special attention to the concerned parts in a given song and feel what the singer is doing and how he or she makes a given "poDi sangati pEsu". Earlier I couldn't feel this last expression used in this context, but now I am able to. I was also able to compare and contrast the poDi sangatigaL rendered by P Susila and Sunanda in the kurinjiyilE pU malarndu song. Everything makes sense now.

If it is not too much trouble, one more favor, please! Can you please ask your friend to provide links to a couple of examples of film songs where sangatigaL (as opposed to poDi sangatigaL) occur and also ask him to indicate the lyrical phrases after which they occur? This would really help one to compare and contrast the use of the two terms. Thank you a lot in advance.

[vasanthakokilam]

Thanks Varsha. Yes, it is indeed a great illustration of T Rukmini's prowess and also patience and being a good sport.

sung, my friend said he will come up with some examples. Stay tuned.

[vasanthakokilam]

Here is further info from my friend on regular sangathi. I will have to watch the example videos he refers to later.
=======
To recap, Podi Sangathis are the small hidden/flash ones/unnoticeable. E.g., Chinna Chinna Vanna Kuyil, Nilave Ennidam Nerungathe and even Unnai Naan Santhitaen (just the pallavi portions)

Regular Sangathis are the ones that are clear/vivid/audible. I believe IR's compositions are more apt here.

1. Edhilum Indu Irupan Regular sangathi's flow mellifluously all over in Pallavi and charanam, specifically to note in charanam portions: Thamizh Kavi Tharum Thavathiru, Udukallil Saram and Perukallum Adhai

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvJnOe68SKg

2. Indraikku Yaen Indha (Ragam: Abhogi).
Kanavukalinnnnnn...Kanthirandhaaaal - a regular sangathi is embedded in a swaram as opposed to a word.. That is, the sangathis are embedded in the nnnnnnnn part and the 'aaaaal' part. Listen to the whole song, watching for every occurrence of these words. They are all embedded with sangathis.
In charanam: Kadhalil Pallaviyo Adhil Naananu Pallaviyo.....Inbathille Nooru Varam. Esp. its dominant in the 2nd versions of the repeated lines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-zhpMAEbY4

(incidentally, to my ears, there is a podi sangathi right from the word go...Indraikku... there is a twist in the way he utters the word Indraikku)

3. Rathiriyil Poothirukkum This song is the hallmark of regular sangathis. Specifically to note in charanam portions: Vennaiyanum Enum Meniyile Thandhiyinai Meetum..Kaiviralil Oru Vegam Kanasaivil Oru Bhavam....Manganigal Thotillile Thoongudhadi Ange . Hamsanandi on which this song is based, is quite amenable to sangathi generation!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8U2HVjt ... U2HVjtb9n4

4) In the famous song from karnan, the word 'karna......' is a sangathi, on the extension aaaaa...
Sirghazi's Ullathil Nalla Ullam is one of a kind. Competition singer stars like Sathya improvises a lot (not to take away any credit from him) on each and every line from the original version. Sirghazi's emphasis is to get it rendered at the right pitch and bhavam not necessarily to add sangathis. Stage versions try to improvise and take it to a different level and ends up adding a lot more sangathis. That's my personal observation. Its generally very difficult to imitate Sirghazhi perfectly to get his impeccable pitch and clarity to the underlying notes and this song is no exception (from my own many failed attempts ).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8vDXE74AII

Just to highlight what I am talking about see below Gautham's version below which is a lot different, slower and improvised over Sirghazhi's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIjYvSsckMA

Sangathis are not necessarily to emphasize the words/syllables but to enhance the musicality of the underlying notes. But it ends up enhancing/emphasizing the words/syllables.

The usual misnomer is to interpret nice/complicated swarams as sangathis. The thumb rule here is to look for twists between/in between words or swarms to identify sangathis. The opening alaps of Indrakku and Edhilum Ingu ( links above ) are a perfect examples of good swarams with no sangathis. But of course that does not mean there can not be sangathis in alaps. I provided an example earlier of Priyanka's flourishes in the alap before her nice rendering of Nenjam Marapadhilai. What I mean is the embedded twists in the notes in the alap is what makes it a sangathis not just the alap per se.

BTW, when Nithayasree, though coming from CM, uses the word Sangathi in her comments in film music competitions, she is referring to the sangathi in the sense we are referring to here and not in the CM sense.

Let us wrap this up appropriately by invoking Sangathi Raja!!
Hariharan is known as a Sangathi Raja prevalently because he does that often on and offstage (recording).
The link below is a testimony of Hari's prowess at delivering Sangathis with finesse and total ease of Malargale Malargale (we can pardon his bad/awkward Tamil pronunciation for his Bombay Tamil origin). You can witness Malgudi Subha awe-struck when Hari goes Koonthalil Olinthikulla Varava...its actually an improvisation of his original recorded version with added sangathis on the fly. Another place, "Ninru Vazhividum Kadhal Rathiye"....a nice clear and a little improvised rendition with extra sangathis (as highlighted) makes Sudha to nod and smile in total appreciation too. At the end, at Vaazhvoom En Vaazhve Va (sangathis added), making Ananth also to nod and acknowledge the beauty and clarity of his rendition.

In terms of sangathi's he also adds extra ones at specifically two places in the pallavi, Idhu Enna Kanavaaaaaaa.....Indu Enna Ninaivaaaaaaa. The opening alap is just a total creative improvisation from Hari.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj5c4tj5qUQ

[sung]

Here is further info from my friend on regular sangathi. ...

VK, definitely I don't have enough words to thank you and your friend. Your friend has done a fantastic job by taking the time. I am in the process of processing his explanations by listening to all the examples. Having a wonderful time. When I started to read about Hariharan and malargaLe malargaLe, I guessed that it must be the one he sang with Pragathi on SSJ, and that turned out to be correct. When I watched the video again, it was interesting to note that Pragathi uses the term sangati.

Again, thank you both so much from the bottom of my heart.

Eager to see the comments from others. Especially I feel that Arasi should share here the article she found on sangatis in CM, without starting a new thread. It will help us compare and contrast the usages of this same term in CM and in the film industry.

[arasi]

Sung,
Yes, VKokilam is very thorough, and will expend energy is getting to the facts and will devote his time (however busy he is) in finding sources to educate himself and others.

Good to have rasikAs like you who appreciate the efforts of others. A pity, a few treat the forum as a facility and nothing else Valuable members like Lakshman whose love for CM and his thirst for collecting compositions are not just for his own sake. His readiness in bringing the lyrics to rasikAs is amazing. When such valuable members of Rasikas.org give lovingly of their time, it's good to see folks like you who appreciate it

An article on Sangathis in CM? No, I didn't come across one. Do not mistake me for a number of folks who are erudite and are up to date here on the forum, those who are well-versed in sangeetha sangathis!

There seems to be so much about sangathis in filmi duniyA--the intricacies of which escape people like me.

What I was referring to was my listening to a kruti which had established sangatis of such a popular one, but how the sangathis had gained a new dimension with the way the imagination of the musician worked! Not going away from them really, and yet creating a newness to it all. Just an observation, and there's nothing more to it...

[shankar vaidyanathan]

Vasanthakokilam's posts inspired me to add the little that I can contribute based on my limited understanding.

I think of Sangathi as a special ornamentation or the "ability to compose within a composition." Sangathi may mean "in company" from "Sangath" or "special Vishayam" as others wrote. I have discussed this topic in detail during my student days with my Hindustani Guru. He had worked with Madan Mohan, Hindi film music director known for ghazals. My Guru's thinking is that while the original composer and lyricist have defined the basic structure and laid the foundation, the vocalist has the creative freedom to add an additional dimension based on their imagination and voice capability as they "live" within the moment of song recording. He used to give examples of how Mohd. Rafi and Lata Mangeshkar used to embellish while "learning" a song before the actual recording.

While it is the additional notes or sancharas or prayogs highlighting variations of the underlying melody (Raga), he used to say that you also need to think of how the chords are playing and how the other orchestration instrumentals are melding together. He used to tell me to bring a Veena like special additional dimension to the film song. I have felt that the Sangathis that I could get out usually depended on the time of day, my mood, energy level, co-operation or the lack thereof of my voice, and, very importantly, the state of my mind at that given moment. My Guru taught me that life experiences are vital in understanding and reproducing the Sangathis that the Greats have made immortal. I may omit some Sangathis altogether while focus extra on others to develop and delve further. Unplugged versions where slowing everything down, getting off the Tala, and, just having the Shruthi used to help me understand the Sangathis in film music better during training.

I like to think of Podi Sangathigal as a micro class such as unwritten micro grace notes composing or more intensely packed which are produced in a gifted bass voice. These Podi Sangathigal usually turn up in landing notes, ending notes, where there is limited cramped space within the song's meter and so are hard to reproduce as they may not be even audible fully. Multi track recording and selective amplification addresses that. In my experience, regular Sangathis routinely occur in Tamil film songs in "Nedil Ezuthukkal, such as, Aa, Yae, Oo" and in "Mei Ezhuthukkal, such as m, n, moonu suzhi N, etc" and these may occur in the beginning, middle, or, end depending on the song's background and situation.

My understanding is that composers like Rahman offer the flexibility and creative room to the singers to produce multiple takes with different dimensions which could be then cherry picked by the recording engineer to produce the final versions.

Best wishes,
Shankar Vaidyanathan, Houston.

[arasi]

sankar vaidyanathan,
Great addition to what Kokilam has rounded up so far! Thanks.

[munirao2001]

Shankar Vaidynathan Sir
Your inputs and lucid explanation makes the sangati of sangatigal, crystal clear. I just would like to point out there are two kinds of creativity. One is recreating the original composition of the composer, understanding the raaga bhaava given to the saahithya bhaava by the composer, by creatively establishing the svaras and its sanchari with flawless emoting. The original creator and composer expects/demands strict adherence to the composition. The other one is creativity of the singer is given freedom for improvisation by the composer, with full confidence in the singer's proven talents to keep the original creativity in the line, intact.
I recall the discussion with PBS Sir on the 'Nilave Ennidam' song. PBS Sir inspired by Pandit Kishori Amonkar and Ustad Mehdi Hassan, improvised with sangatis and podi sangatis with appreciation, acceptance and approval by Sri MSV Sir. Composition becoming one of the best in the raga bageshri. PBS Sir also informed that to make this creativity to happen, the singer must have very good notating knowledge and skills. MSV Sir himself rated Vid.Vaani Jayaram Madam and PBS Sir knowledge and skills in notation very high.
While the second one with embellishments have met with great success, in the film music composition and songs, this has resulted in mixed results in Karnatic Music. Patanthara Sudhatvam has suffered, the original creativity in saahithya bhaava and raaga bhaava also trivialized for the sake of novelty in improvisation. Undeniable fact is that with Great Maestro creativity in improvisation has lead to many compositions to attain the exalted position of great compositions. It is also a fact in Karnatik Music, all the Vidwans and Vidushees lack the seriousness, commitment, dedication and respect given to the lyricist and the composer by the play back singers.

munirao2001

[sung]

In my experience, regular Sangathis routinely occur in Tamil film songs in "Nedil Ezuthukkal, such as, Aa, Yae, Oo" and in "Mei Ezhuthukkal, such as m, n, moonu suzhi N, etc" and these may occur in the beginning, middle, or, end depending on the song's background and situation.
Podi Sangathigal usually turn up in landing notes, ending notes, where there is limited cramped space within the song's meter and so are hard to reproduce as they may not be even audible fully.

Very, very useful information. Thank you very much.

[munirao2001]

Sung
One additional interesting input. Sarangadeva in his 'Sangita Ratnakara' has given sangati/podi sangati as 'bhanjani', meaning either differentiation or splitting, keeping the Sthaya or the fixed place of svarams in the line. It is also interesting to note that composers and play back singers are following this in film music, where as this has developed in to neraval at later times in the Karnatik music, probably as late as 18th century.

munirao2001