Ideal approach for instrumentalists

chitravina ravikiran · Post by **chitravina ravikiran** » 24 Jul 2014, 08:47

While much has been discussed about vocal/instrumental style, slow/fast approaches, lyrical/pure melodic style etc this by numerous great artistes and rasikas, implementing it involves literally getting hundreds of details right. Each instrument has its own beauty, personality which needs to be projected. So, what is the need for instrumentalists to be aware of or pursue vocal style? A viewpoint by the Nadaswaram genius T N Rajaratnam Pillai in the link below is highly significant to both rasikas and musicians.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8H_GCH41sw

Some of you may have already heard this interview but his statements around the 20th minute is particular relevance for a very interesting reason - his emphasis on why vocalists need not take too much pride in following instrumental style, even in a era when his own playing had inspired many a leading vocalist...

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 24 Jul 2014, 11:11

Here's some words from PMI:

"His style could not be characterised as the 'Ariyakudi style', in the same sense that one referred to the styles of G. N. Balasubramaniam or of Semmangudi Srinivasa Aiyar. They were personal styles which found use for the nagaswaram inspiration. Ramanuja Iyengar's expression was ideally vocalist, completely natural, full of elegance without affectation or mannerism and conforming to all the requisites prescribed for the perfect gayaka. Any good voice used naturally to create clean classical music would automatically kindle thoughts of Ariyakudi Ramanuja Iyengar," Mani Iyer said.
http://www.carnaticcorner.com/articles/ptsmani.txt

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 24 Jul 2014, 16:50

Gayaka paddhati for vocalist is optimum utilization of the natural qualities and training for emotive appeal of both the raaga and saahithya bhava. Vocalists were also greatly influenced by the veena-particularly gamakams/kampita aspects and also tana. First veena techniques did influence in singing. Later, great maestros in flute playing also influenced the singing-tonal and toothukkari techniques. Nagasvaram techniques influenced the singers. While the ideal for instrumentalists was gayaka paddhati for easy and good connectivity with the saahithya and its bhaava, Maestros did make ideal and optimum use of the special quality of the instrument for the rakthi. Vocalization of instrumental technique was also adopted intelligently by Great Maestros for laya, alaapana, tana and svarakalpana. With Great Maestros GNB, MMI, Semmengudi adopting the nagasvaram technique and winning the appreciation of rasikas, their technique has become the gayaka paddhati, with few exceptions. GNB was also influenced by Palladam Sanjeeva Rao's flute techinques and his developing the brikhas was attributed to this adaptation. MVI was the first to introduce the brikhas, to my knowledge, also influenced by flute technique. BMK very intelligently and beautifully adopted flute and violin/viola techniques in vocalization. Chembai also adopted the violin techniques. In the recent times, I noticed Ranjani and Gayathri beautifully adopting the violin -bowing-manner/technique in vocalizing.
Gayaka paddhati has been affected, in the sense that gamaka usage-very special quality of KM, in singing has suffered in the process of vocalization of instrumental techniques-flute and nagasvaram. We are fortunate to have many vainikas and chitraveena maestros to realize the supreme quality of KM. I desire rasikas to appreciate and support this gayaka paddhati for celebration of excellence in KM

munirao2001

annamalai · Post by **annamalai** » 24 Jul 2014, 19:34

chitravina ravikiran, superb interview by TN Rajaratnam Pillai.

His observations on Bani is very interesting @ 2.59 - the point on Bani

As you have pointed out, TNR is not in support of Nadaswara bani in the vocal singing.
TNR is also very much in favour of chowka kala (slow tempo) singing.
His vocal rendition of Begada varnam is nice.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 26 Jul 2014, 00:30

annamalai wrote:
As you have pointed out, TNR is not in support of Nadaswara bani in the vocal singing.

Well, that may be the reason why the tup-tup artist has now switched to 'sports mode' in his singing. You now hear 'dugu dugu', probably taken from kabaddi's "chadu gudu chadu gudu".

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 26 Jul 2014, 01:48

Many thanks to shri Ravikiran for sharing this as well as pointing out an interesting segment!

I am utterly impressed by the musical wisdom of shri TNR and the effortless ease with which his words of wisdom flow. Sometime when I get time, I am going to prepare an audio version of it to listen again a few times, with the interviewer's words cut out. I guess that "dumbing down" style of interviewing was in vogue during those days but I'd rather listen to just TNR's words

.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 26 Jul 2014, 02:51

I guess that "dumbing down" style of interviewing was in vogue during those days but I'd rather listen to just TNR's words .

I agree, but do you think it is really any better now?

tiruppugazh · Post by **tiruppugazh** » 26 Jul 2014, 07:30

Have any vocalists talked about how instrumentalists should present their music?

annamalai · Post by **annamalai** » 26 Jul 2014, 08:31

uday_shankar,

In fact, I like the interviewer's role. The interviewer pokes TNR with right questions (without challenging him, sort of like Larry King of CNN ...) and trying to get TNR in to a conversation and nudges TNR to sing Begada varnam. If the interview was a pure question and answer session 1. who is Guru ? 2. When was your first concert ?; then you may not get the best from these sort of artists. The way TNR narrates the story of Madurai Ponnuswamy Pillai and the lamp carrying rasika is very moving. Perhaps, the "bani" of the interviewer could be termed as the 1950s genre; comedy style of NS Krishnan and TA Mathuram; which is probably totally out of fashion now.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 26 Jul 2014, 11:12

tiruppugazh Sir

Yes. On accompaniment role, instrumentalists must take half the time of the vocalists, highlighting the vocalists presentation and also their vidwath. Occasionally, inspiring interlude. Mridangam artists helping on tala and laya-kalapramana, also 'sustaining clap-trap technique' with imaginative kuraippu, in the present times. As soloist, the technical expertise and virtuosity in bringing out 'saahithya bhavam', with clarity, almost similar to the vocalist, besides the expertise/skills of following 'gayaka' paddhati. Also show casing the technical virtuosity/experitise/skills of playing the instrument unique quality. This my understanding arising out of listening to Great Maestros.
Sorry, I cannot give you the links. forunites, links specialists can help.

munirao2001

chitravina ravikiran · Post by **chitravina ravikiran** » 26 Jul 2014, 18:32

The interviewer is actually T Sankaran, grandson of Veena Dhanammal, who was known as an interesting raconteur later on. I wondered if he had specifically been prompted by AIR to adapt this style!

I opened with TNR's views but I was lucky to glean the perspectives of many giants on the specific aspect of 'vocal style on instruments". Those like Flute Mali sir and Lalgudi sir were of the view that an ideal instrumentalist must be able to 'vocalize' phrases nicely. Dr Veena Balachander echoed this sentiment but also thought that the chitravina (with its natural continuity and micro-tonal potential) was closest to the voice and often used stated in his lecture demos that his ideal was to play the veena like chitravina. Semmangudi sir and others would recount to me how those like Tirukkodikkaval Krishna Iyer would 'play like vocal'. In Western Classical also, people routinely talk of the 'wonderful voice' a good violinist has - which is the exact parallel to this.

In lecture-demos, we often see artistes illustrating vocalization on their instruments by first singing a couple of short phrases and then endeavoring to reproduce it as faithfully as possible on their instruments. It was generally impressive. While this method by itself is not incorrect, it still doesn't seem to go all the way in proving the point. Is there a better 'test'?

It seems to me that the real test is to do the opposite. To play something first and then sing (or have a vocalist present sing) it. Only then one can judge if a given phrase that is naturally played by an instrumentalist is truly close to vocal style.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 28 Jul 2014, 10:53

Chitraveena Ravikiran Sir,
Ideal of instrumentalists sounding closest to the voice, particularly the saahithya bhaava-akshara clarity, with special technique and skills was being followed for well over 400 years in Karnatik Music concerts. SSRao informed me that Karaikudi Brothers used both the ways of playing veena first and highlighting the same with voice and also singing first and later playing the veena, for rasika to understand the beauty in gayaka and veena padhati, in the context of chosen line(s) or phrase(s). The intention was for good appreciation of the bhaavam.
In violin playing technique, while Tanjavur school strictly adhered to the gayaka padhati, Mysore and Andhra baani used to balance with instrumental technique and skills. In 'trinity' of Violin Great Maestros, Lalgudi Sir and TNK Sir adhered to the gayaka padhati, MSG used instumental technique and skills for giving new experience in solo playing.
MSG technique becoming popular, many Great Maestros, Maestros and Vidwans have adopted this practice.
In veena, Great Maestro SB Sir was also adhering to the gayaka paddhati, where as Emani Shankara Sastri Sir adopted both the paddhati.
Now, I want your advice. To popularize Veena and other instrumental for higher reach with rasikas, can we try vocal accompaniment to instrumentals ?

munirao2001

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 28 Jul 2014, 13:02

It is not exactly that, but I find that the brother and sister flute/vocal (I know their names well, but brain cells are not cooperating) works extremely well.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 28 Jul 2014, 15:21

You must mean J.B.Sruti Sagar and J.B.Keerthana.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 28 Jul 2014, 16:06

Nick.H.,Sir
My idea is not either playing together or jugalbandi playing. Just like violin/veena/flute accompaniment to vocal, vocal accompaniment to instrumental. It calls for vocalists to improve skills for this role. This improvement also likely to improve their vocal solo performances e.g. Great Maestro BMK and Vid.Ranjani and Vid.Gayathri. It is eminently possible. In tani aavartanam and tala vadya concerts, the role of konnakol, vocal production of laya svarams has been successful. If this new offering is appreciated by the rasikas, it will open new opportunities for both vocalists and instrumentalists. To my knowledge, this has not been tried.
Let us wait for expert advice of Sri Chitraveena Ravikiran/Sashikiran/Neela Ramgopal/Akella Mallikarjuna Sharma/Mannarkoil Balajee/other maestros & vidwans forunites.

munirao2001

chitravina ravikiran · Post by **chitravina ravikiran** » 30 Jul 2014, 00:18

Shri Muni Rao,

Vocal accompaniment to instrumental is a wonderful concept and very useful to get rasikas to appreciate the sahitya also. I tried it a few times in Bangalore (Rama Seva Mandali, Fort High School), Chennai (Krishna Gana Sabha, Hamsadhwani etc) and other cities in India & USA, with some of my performing vocal students. People have welcomed it greatly as not just a novelty but as a value-addition in instrumental concerts. But it needs a lot of practice for the vocalist to temperamentally adjust the voice sensitively so that the instrument's innate qualities still stand projected. Likewise, the audio balance has to be different - here, the voice has to be about 60-70% of the main instrument. Even in my concerts, I had the vocalist accompany me only in select parts - where I wanted the lyrics to be highlighted or effect a small contrast in the melody. (The violin was still the primary accompaniment as vocal may not have the full range to follow various instruments as seamlessly as the violin.) In a few of my fusion concerts, I also had Smt Sudha Raghunathan, Shri Unnikrishnan, Shri T M Krishna etc sing select pieces with me - more as guest stars than as accompanists.

Most of you are also aware of my introducing the chitravina as an accompaniment to voice in concerts of Semmangudi sir, Brindamma, Shri KVN, Shri R K Shrikanthan, Shri Nedanoori Krishnamorthy etc. This calls for a different mindset to that required for jugalbandhis/fusion with vocalists like Dr Balamuralikrishna, Smt Girija Devi or (Blues legend) Taj Mahal.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Jul 2014, 03:34

This is turning out to be a great thread. ( btw, this is an example of a thread that members can propose to be included in the newly created 'threads of distinction' list. ).

Going back to the KG level, one obvious evidence for the vocal style of playing a song on an instrument is the difference we hear when someone is playing with the sahitya in their mind vs just playing the swaras of the song. Mahavishnu has written about 'expectation structures in the brain' before and may be that is at play both at the performer side and the rasikas side. The perfomer, knowing how the sahitya sounds, may make those inexplicable hard and soft stresses of the swaras so it comes close to the sahitya bhava laden structure in his/her mind. Similarly, if the rasika has the expectation of similar vocalized structure and when it matches that expectation, they actually hear the words played through the instruments.

My own list of such songs are: 'rama katha sudha', 'brova bharama' , 'ma janaki', 'bhava nuta', 'bagyadha lakshmi baramma' etc . If someone plays with the right set of hard and soft stresses that matches the vocal version in my mind, I feel as if I am hearing the words. Are there any common characteristics that exist among these specific set of songs or it is just my own conditioned expectation structures?

I am sure Sri. Ravikiran deals with this kind of communicating the identify of the song to the rasikas and delight them in a similar fashion.

Another example, at a somewhat whimsical level: I was playing on the flute 'Sa sa.. sa.. sa sa' with a particular song in my mind and asked the person next to me 'What song is this?'. Got a blank stare. Of course. I then played 'Sa sa.. sa.. sa sa sa ri ga ga'. pat came the reply 'brindavananum nandakumaranum'. Exactly the song I had in mind. Such a common and limited sequence of swaras are strongly identified with the song with those words. I guess it is all due to the shared cultural context that help us pattern match and even extrapolate a few things to fit the heard melody to the song we know.

Once the artist succeeds in bringing the rasika into that shared context, a lot of work is done. The artist has the rasika in their net, so to say. The artist can then employ variations on that theme. The rasika will stay with him/her on that abstract communication. An example that comes to mind is the song we recently discussed: Bhavanutha by MSG when Sri. Nageswaran shared that song with us. In some sangathis what may be common with the first sangathi is the starting few swaras and the ending few swaras but the middle is all flights of imagination all over the mohana landscape but we interpret all that as part of Bhavanutha.

This brings me back to the vocal accompaniment which can sound wonderful if done right and by competent set of artists. Just like there is the practice for the instrumentalist to sing the pallavi line of the RTP to give the rasikas the sahitya reference, the vocal accompaniment achieves that purpose for songs that the rasikas may not be familiar with. After a few rounds of vocal accompaniment, that structure gets established in the rasikas minds and even if the vocal accompaniment stops ( say, because they can not keep up with the instrumentalist's range or fights of imagination ), their work is pretty much done. The rasikas will follow along with the words in their mind. The vocal accompaniment can then join once in a while, say on the refrain, for effect and possibly for some reinforcement.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 30 Jul 2014, 07:01

one obvious evidence for the vocal style of playing a song on an instrument is the difference we hear when someone is playing with the sahitya in their mind vs just playing the swaras of the song. Mahavishnu has written about 'expectation structures in the brain' before and may be that is at play both at the performer side and the rasikas side. The perfomer, knowing how the sahitya sounds, may make those inexplicable hard and soft stresses of the swaras so it comes close to the sahitya bhava laden structure in his/her mind. Similarly, if the rasika has the expectation of similar vocalized structure and when it matches that expectation, they actually hear the words played through the instruments.

I agree entirely. I have often experienced this in Lalgudi sir's music. Where the same refrain in the anupallavi and charanam consciously sound different (for e.g in brOva bhAramA).

I have wondered how much of this is a top-down effect. Where higher-level conceptual knowledge influences the perception of the low-level acoustic properties of the sound itself. From what Sri Ravikiran suggests, it appears as though the effect is indeed bottom-up: There are very subtle differences in the way the instrumentalist plays each iteration, even though the underlying swara structure is the same.

I also wonder if the way the skilled instrumental musicians articulate each phoneme is taught and learned differently (in a context specific way), just the way we learn to articulate phonemes using the vocal tract.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 30 Jul 2014, 08:44

mahavishnu wrote:I agree entirely. I have often experienced this in Lalgudi sir's music. Where the same refrain in the anupallavi and charanam consciously sound different (for e.g in brOva bhAramA).

What I'm about to say is not to counter what Mahavishnu is saying above but just a point from which to segue on top of my soap box:
A good “voice” for an instrument need not be construed to simply signify the instrumentalist's ability to bring out the sAhitya in his/her playing. That is certainly an important goal in Carnatic music and adds to a voice-like experience for those tuned into the sAhitya. However, even where no sAhitya is involved, the “voice” of an instrument is an important concept. Example…Shri Ravikiran mentioned the "voice" of the violin in WCM. Similarly, even in Indian music, Carnatic included, to bring about a special "voice-like life" to an instrument from the mere "kattai" that it is (to paraphrase shri TNR) can be a goal independent of sAhitya. In our own backyard, Flute Mali sir is a prime example…we would be idiots to suggest that he brought out the sAhitya bhava to any great extent. We would be equally idiots to suggest that his flute did not have a great “voice”. I am suggesting that this "voice" of Mali sir's flute is more than just sound. I have a recording of Mali Sir accompanied by shri L Subramaniam who is an unparalleled master of sound...silky smooth sangatis in perfect shruti. Yet, Mali sir's shadja grips my throat. There's life in that voice. So there are many shades of reality...there can be great sound with not much "voice", great voice without great sound.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 30 Jul 2014, 11:14

vasantakokilam, mahavishnu, uday shankar, Sirs, very good observation and insights.

Sri Chitraveena Ravi Kiran Sir,
Thanks for the information that you indeed tried vocal accompaniment in your concert. I was not aware. I am keen to listen, observe and understand. I am fully aware of the knowledge/skills/practice demand on the vocalists to achieve this aspect, yet to be fully explored. When veena (in the past) and violin artists have succeeded in accompanying vocalists, vocalists also aware of the different accompaniment techniques and styles of violinists, this has to be tried with training. Selection of vocalists, after training apt for the main instrumentalist is very critical. As Uday Shankar Sir has rightly observed the effect of 'voice' of an instrumental (ist, also), beyond merely 'sound', the perfect fusion of voices of the instrumental and vocal is a must, highlighting the uniqueness of the difference in 'voices' emoting, is also equally, a must.
This idea germinated in my mind when I listened and enjoyed the voice usage, arrangement and effect by the Maestro composer, late Sri M.B.Srinivasan Sir, in his excellent creations of Carnatic Choir music ensemble. Carnatic Choir also needs to be imaginatively explored much more to expand the frontiers of appreciation of rasikas.
I desire that focus should not only on the 'saahitya bhavam' aspect in this experiment, but extend to other creative aspects and unique quality of Carnatic Music.
I wish a very good Sabha/music foundation/patron, individually or collectively (e.g.KFAC, Bengaluru) creates fund for select Great Maestro in instrumental and vocal to work on this aspect, as a project, both theoretical and practical aspects, a time bound project and ending with performances.
I also recall informal discussions and experiments did happen during the vaadya vrinda program composing at AIR, both Vijayawada and Madras studios with stalwart staff artistes and producers of great eminence. Unfortunately, there was no attempt to record it for posterity, to my knowledge (may be, only in the form notations is preserved). In the present time, your beautiful composition for the title music for the 'Naada Bhed'-SPIC-MACAY & DD-Indian Classical Music competition, is also a case study on voice usage with the theme of composition and arrangement.
With knowledgeable forunites we are privileged to have in this forum and Great Maestros/Maestros/Vidwans forunites, let us explore deeply both theoretical and practical aspects and build the reference material.

munirao2001

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 30 Jul 2014, 13:13

Amidst all this, I think it often goes underemphasized that instruments CANNOT produce vocal music! It is a good ideal to have, but someone who actually tells they can literally hear the lyrics is not only exaggerating, but lying.

And there is more to the vocal basis of our music than mere presence of lyrics. Looks like Uday ji has already toched on this point, but I think I'm saying it in a simpler language.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 30 Jul 2014, 13:44

Sahitya is just one aspect. Music is as much a mental experience as it is acoustic and the listeners' brains are also very much involved in creating their own experiences. Our brains are experts at anticipation and gap filling.

And from the viewpoint of a violinist, it takes considerable skill to modulate the bowing, the left hand and the tone to produce the effect that matches most closely with the syllable and it can be anything from a very liquid legato, gentle portato stroke, a jharu, playing on another string, a finger strike as opposed to a glide, or in extreme (for hard syllables like Da, or bha), bringing the bow down hard on the string or even using a little spiccato to add an edge in jathis --- or playing a smooth stroke while letting the mridangist render the appropriate beat.

Apart from lyrical capability, the overall versatility of the human voice is a marvel of nature -- the characteristics of a good voice were what famous instrument makers sought in their instruments (I'm talking about Strad or Guarneri violins, but you can find the principles in other instruments too). The voice in turn is capable of learning from the instrument to expand it's own capabilities (sometimes a very good voice can go even beyond the instrument's own range as in the case of the nadaswaram or the flute).

But if anyone is talking about the tone that makes an instrument's voice come "alive" with it's own uniqueness, I must make a point. It's noticeably harder to achieve that kind of incredible tone in gamaka heavy music than in plain note music, and it's easier to do that on some instruments (e.g. piano), than others (violin and voice).

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 30 Jul 2014, 15:58

Dear brother-member, munirao garu,

Having accidentally seen my name also included in the list of names for expert advice in your post I am compelled to write the following for your kind perusal.

Even though I have ignorantly followed many illogical and irrational traditional methods in teaching music and ruined the lives of some of my students like many other music-teachers, the Almighty very kindly gave me Darshan, made me realised and also blessed me with unparallel methods in teaching by which hundreds of kids all over the globe are benefited through my books, CDs and Videos since last more than 10years. Previously, I came across many such music-teachers suffering a lot from incurable physical and mental diseases, family disputes, property disputes, financial disputes etc., etc., due to their deceitful teachings. But, in my case, even though I have also ignorantly ruined the lives of some of my students by my illogical methods in teaching music, the Almighty very kindly made me realized to feel the duties and responsibilities and also to fulfill them efficiently thus blessing me in getting the real peace by making me help others honestly and sincerely. That is why I have taken the propagation of these each methods in teaching music as the mission of life and getting full satisfaction in serving our people honestly and sincerely.

Hence I beg your pardon for being unable to give you any advice in this kind of self-aggrandisement being very busily engaged in my sacred mission of truly serving our people. amsharma

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 30 Jul 2014, 18:47

Dear Sri AMSharma garu
You have observed it as act of self aggrandizement. How come ? Let me explain to bring the clarity and understanding. The three objectives are:1. To enhance the appeal of good instrumental music and higher reach of rasikas appreciation and support. 2. To improve the techniques, practice and presentation by the artists. 3. To improve deeper classicism values in Carnatic Music and also immensely talented artists with such values in their music for getting the very much needed support.
You can review, decide and offer support for this initiative to achieve success. Your multifaceted knowledge will be eminently useful and serve the cause.

munirao2001

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 31 Jul 2014, 01:19

someone who actually tells they can literally hear the lyrics is not only exaggerating, but lying.

Well, as someone who did write in a few posts above that I do hear lyrics, I just want to say I am not lying

I used lots of words to explain what that phenomenon is which I do not want to repeat here but needless to say it is not to be taken literally but more the mental
process that one feels as if they hear the words.

Uday, I am not sure if I understand what you are saying and the difference between vocal style that I am referring to and the one you are saying. I realize it is difficult to explain but may be some examples will help.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 31 Jul 2014, 01:30

I used lots of words to explain what that phenomenon is which I do not want to repeat here but needless to say it is not to be taken literally but more the mental
process that one feels as if they hear the words

I agree with you, VK. And I have offered plausible mechanisms of how this process may happen. There are neural mechanisms of shadowing, entrainment and comprehension that go along with the said level of explanation.

And to be clear, I am not equating the "voice" of the instrument with the perception of "vocalization" that the listener feels. I guess that this is what Uday was referring to.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 31 Jul 2014, 18:52

vasanthakokilam wrote:I realize it is difficult to explain but may be some examples will help.

I think Mahavishnu captured it correctly above. For example, it may be possible to capture some "vocalizations" well on say, a (electric) mandolin, but I don't think it has a good "voice". And by voice I don't merely mean sound either

. I guess I'm being vague

.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 31 Jul 2014, 20:07

It's easy to hear words that aren't there. I'm sure that Mahavishnu has a whole collection of such aural illusions.

But let me phrase that another way, in this context: if an instrumentalist is playing a song in a way that the hearer finds very evocative, and the hear knows the words, it seems very likely that they might "hear" them. This could happen even if it wasn't in the player's intention, couldn't it?

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 31 Jul 2014, 22:17

Just to add to Uday's point:I suppose the "voice" of the instrument also includes physical features like timbre, continuity of sound and frequency modulation. But it also includes psychological features that make one perceive the source/intention of the articulatory event that produced the sound. Many of my colleagues in the music dept refer to Coltrane's saxophone as a unique example. They say that he was able to get a voice out of it that no one else has managed to. Here I imagine, they are referring to the added extensions to his physical technique that brought out the "voice" of the instrument.

if an instrumentalist is playing a song in a way that the hearer finds very evocative, and the hear knows the words, it seems very likely that they might "hear" them. This could happen even if it wasn't in the player's intention, couldn't it?

It is now considered common knowledge that when we listen to sound (speech, music or any other articulatory physical event), the motor regions of the brain that would be active when we engage in those articulatory actions themselves are active. This suggests that the way we interpret acoustic events is by shadowing them or even passively simulating those sounds in our own brains. Some of you might have heard the term "mirror neurons" used in this context. These are circuits that we have developed through evolution exclusively for the purpose of simulating actions. For example when we listen to speech, our speech effectors (the muscles that move the mouth and vocal apparatus) are tonically active, even though we are not physically engaged in the act of speech at that time.

Thus it is not a stretch to imagine that when we carefully follow a piece of music (with appropriate training), we can tune into the physical actions of the vocalist/instrumentalist that produced the sound. Even though sAhitya is not part of the physical articulation in the instrument, since the physical actions indirectly were responsible for the some aspects of it can be tuned into by the perceiver. And I think this is the phenomenology that VK reports. I believe that if the instrumentalist is experienced and talented enough (and if the instrument in question has the "voice" to pull this off) two very subtly different articulations can be produced for the same swaras or notes. This would explain why the anupallavi and charanam in brova bharama sound different to certain perceivers.

Now the question is do we always faithfully hear what the sound waves carry? The answer is no.
Here are some examples of auditory illusions that we find fascinating.

1) The first is called the McGurk effect, named after a Scottish acoustician James McGurk.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtsfidRq2tw
The video is self explanatory, but it shows that the same acoustic information sounds different depending on the context. There are two interpretations of this. 1) Information from multiple sources is required to disambiguate the source/intention of the sound and 2) this is a top-down effect, what you are thinking has a great effect on what you are hearing.

2) The second is called the speech-to-song illusion and was developed by Diana Deutsch at UC San Diego. The same auditory stimulus can sound like speech of song depending on context. Here the same acoustic stimulus sounds like a song when put into a loop.
http://philomel.com/asa156th/mp3/Sound_Demo_1.mp3

3) And the third is an example of auditory stream segregation. When we listen to two independent acoustic events combined, the resulting acoustic effect is a third one that is unrelated to the two physical sounds. This is a link to a beautiful example of two children playing two different sequences (first separately and then together). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iw6xs6t_yNs

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 01 Aug 2014, 07:08

Awesome, Ramesh!!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Aug 2014, 07:59

Thanks Uday and Mahavishnu for all the excellent info on this topic.

I now have a vague idea of what this abstract 'voice' means. At least I know what it is not!

Mahavishnu, thanks for those amazing links that are quite relevant to this discussion. The first one, the first part, I actually did not hear 'da da da' but heard it as 'ah ah ah'. Did anyone else hear it that way? But that does not take away the point about hearing 'ba ba ba' in the second sequence.

Thinking about what comes closest in terms of a repeated sequence in a loop starting to sound like a song. I guess rap would be one. I can not think of a CM example. MD's madhyamakala passages have a different aesthetic feel and I wonder if it is due to any such auditory effects. Probably not.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 01 Aug 2014, 13:53

I thought it was far far far! But, none the less, the impossibility of hearing something other than what our eyes are telling us that we hear is remarkable; astonishing, even. I only heard of the McGurk effect within the past few months, now I keep coming across it everywhere.

The second, I did not find so remarkable: we do not speak with a monotone. Some voices (accents/languages/etc) are more "musical" than others, but the tonal variation is there. I can't see/hear this as anything other than just extracting something that was there anyway.

I wish the third video had continued into the discussion/explanation the class was about to give.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Aug 2014, 19:12

Yes, a discussion on the third one would have been educational. Also, some explanation with translation to S R G M would be good for many of us here.

(btw, If you did not notice it already, look for the reactions of the kids when the hear the combined play. Especially the one in the back leaning against the wall. She catches on quite quickly and is blown away. It is fun to see her reaction)

The subtle but widely observed effect such as this McGurk 'ba ba ba' effect makes me reflect on the fact that we are all so made from the same darn cookie cutter template!

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 03 Aug 2014, 17:12

Dear brother-member, muniraogaru,

Among the three objectives you have mentioned in your post I am not at all able to find any teacher’s perspective which is my first and foremost preference pertaining to the aspirants’ care.

Having worked both as professional performer as Violin-accompanist and also as a professional teacher I could not justify as a professional-teacher but unknowingly cheated the aspirants having taught with illogical and irrational methods in teaching. Even though this harmful act has happened due to the defective traditional methods in teaching as this happened due to my inefficiency I must hold the responsibility. That is why, after my retirement, I have entirely resigned from the life of the professional-performer and spent whole time on the research in the methods of teaching and, by the grace of the Almighty, successfully found some affective methods for the first time in the history. Later, I have taken the propagation of them as a mission of my remaining life. Thus, the aspirants’ care has become my only preference and I am not interested at all in other things.

As this is out of the present topic and as I have my own research and astounding findings in this respect I have furnished them with reference to http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... 09#p266109 for the benefit of the instrumental aspirants. amsharma

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 04 Aug 2014, 12:28

I had an "interesting" experience a few days ago.as opposed to the ideal approach being discussed.
At Sriram Parasurams violin concert he took up an alapana of amrithavarshini.there was this tabalji also on stage and I knew his school in HM is one of the few which handle this raga. So I thought it would be an interesting CM..HM version . Instead he chose to play maru behag in HM alongside .He explained the rationale thus
Marubehag shares the same aroha as amrithvarshini and differs in that it is employs all the notes in the avaroha
As he alternated between the two it turned out to be an engaging experience for me the listener.one raga lurking around the corner as a shadow while the came out into view
He then went on to play anandamritakarshini for cm and a druth composition for hm
It was a nice experiment

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 05 Aug 2014, 16:44

My goals mentioned does need the support of teacher and his perspectives for achieving improvement in the understanding the deeper classicism values in KM and also techniques to achieve deep classicism and deliver.
I desire that rasikas should understand and appreciate the solo concerts of instrumentalists better and extend their support. You will agree that many immensely talented soloists in instruments do not receive the support. I would like share two disappointing experiences to drive home the point I am making. Vani Vidya Kendra, Basaveshwarnagar, Bengaluru organized Shri Kadri Goplanath's saxophone recital, with accompaniment of Vid.Kanyakumari on the violin. Rasikas applauded her accompaniment. VVK also organized a solo concert of Vid.Kanyakumari in the same series. The attendance and support of rasikas was found wanting. VVK organized Vid.Kumaresh and Vid.Jayanthi Kumaresh concert in Rama Navami series. Vid Kumaresh played a beautiful and brilliant Begada raaga aalapana. Rasikas failed in understanding the deep classicism values in his violin playing. I was the lone rasika applauded him for the effort and offering.
I need not dwell on the plight of Nagasvara/Veena/Flute/mandolin/chitraveena/saxophone/guitar Vidwans, who are not popular. One of the goal of the idea and experiment of vocal accompaniment to instrumental artists in concert is to improve the rasikas better understanding and appreciation. With better appreciation and attendance, the artists will get the much needed support.
msakella, chitraveena Ravikiran, Sashikiran, Narmada Gopalakrishnan, Neela Ramagopal, Srikant, VKRaman and other Vidwans and Vidushees along with Mahavishnu, Vasantakokilam, Udayasankar and others giving the valuable inputs and guidance, the inputs improving the technique for practice and performance, event managers also offering support, the goal will be served.

munirao2001

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 06 Aug 2014, 11:15

Dear brother-member, munirao garu,

Again you have mentioned my name in your post. Hence I am compelled to respond.

This sub-thread, ‘Ideal approach for instrumentalists’ is absolutely of performer’s perspective. There may be a very little of teacher’s perspective also as these intricacies of instrumental-playing must also be taught by the teacher.

In this connection there is one very important point every sensible person must observe. That is of the percentage of the level of efficiency of the subject. In any subject while the pass-mark starts from 40% the level of efficiency has 60 levels between 40 and 100%. Even among these 60 levels the higher efficiency must be adjudged by being closer to the maximum 100%. In the same manner, even though each and every musician is a mixture of both performer’s and teacher’s perspectives while the professional performer has more of the performer’s perspective and far less of the teacher’s perspective the professional teacher has more of the teacher’s perspective and far less of the performer’s perspective. Even among them while the performer’s motto is merely selfish in pleasing the listener the teacher’s motto is very noble and sacred in serving others by making them knowledgeable. Both are of absolutely different poles. However, among them the performer must depend upon the teacher only.

In the present context, as I have been able to fairly quicken the process of learning music very strictly basing upon the logical and rational methods within a short span of 3 or 4 years getting amazing results I can be of between 70 and 80% of the teacher’s perspective while all other teachers following the elongated quantitative traditional methods in teaching which are filled with illogicality and irrationality remain between 20 and 30% of the teacher’s perspective only.

For any thing logical thinking is the only way to always keep us on right track in each and every aspect. Very strictly following this logicality I am able to get thumping success in many respects of learning music and by adamantly following the harmful illogical and irrational methods in teaching all other teachers are unable to get positive results quickly like me. There are vast differences in the way of our thinking and all others are unable either to get out their illogical methods or even to understand my logical methods.

Thus, as neither it is useful nor I am interested in this affair I cannot enter into this discussions for which I beg your pardon. amsharma

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 06 Aug 2014, 17:54

In continuation to my last post I would also like to raise another important point for the discussion of the knowledgeable members of our forum. That is the logical aspect of the performer’s perspective on the points like the present ‘Ideal approach for instrumentalists’.

As the music environment in Chennai, in general, remains at a high level each and every musician aspires to become a great performer availing those opportunities and accordingly to earn the fame or money or any lucrative higher post or honour or title or foreign-tour etc., etc. That is why even to educate and also to attract the common man in music umpteen numbers of conferences or seminars or workshops on musical-appreciation are held very frequently in Chennai. Thus, by educating many people the performers want to attract many number of audience which facilitates them to earn more public relations, fans, fame, money etc., etc., from them. Now the question is, thus, while they earn many things of their lives from the society is it not their duty to, in turn, pay back the society even in terms of teaching music to their kids efficiently, honestly and sincerely? Are they doing so? No, they all tell that they are doing it but I can prove that none of them is doing so. But, none of them is ready for any kind of discussion in this respect with anybody as it helps only to spill out his/her own beans. That is the pity. They all teach in their own much elongated traditional method and some how or the other put the blame on the kids or their parents for any short-comings in learning their music.

To tell the fact, it has been proved beyond any doubt that if the teacher very strictly follows a logical and rational method in teaching/learning naturally the process is quickened and the kid could certainly learn music very efficiently in a very short period. Here, at Secunderabad, in our music-institution, Swarabhangima, the only music-institute of its own kind on the globe, we have been following this new system since last 5 or 6 years with the whole-hearted co-operation of the parents and all their school-going kids are able to learn and attain amazing results within a very short span of time.

Though not for the teachers as they won’t come forward for any open discussion in this respect, if the parents are interested in knowing these details of this system I shall certainly demonstrate them which could even be web cast all over the globe for the benefit of the kids and their parents. By following this system all the aspirants can very well save their invaluable time, energy and money abundantly. amsharma

chitravina ravikiran · Post by **chitravina ravikiran** » 10 Aug 2014, 00:52

This thread has brought out several interesting perspectives, thanks to your views and examples like that

Deutsch's Scale Illusion

. While the other two are more acoustic illusions, this one has a simpler explanation - higher frequency notes tend to get heard more, esp when two or more artistes play the same type of instruments.

Player 1: S , R D - M , D R
Player 2: S , N G - P , G N
Since, N, D and P are higher than R, G and M, we tend to hear S, N D - P , D N

(In WCM a composer has to be aware of such factors in order to ensure that multiple instruments are heard individually, even when playing simultaneously. This is done by changing the dynamics of various instruments. Typically, high frequency instruments like flutes and violins will be made to play softer when there is a dominant role for those like Cello, Bass or Trombone.)

It is now considered common knowledge that when we listen to sound (speech, music or any other articulatory physical event), the motor regions of the brain that would be active when we engage in those articulatory actions themselves are active.

Yes, this is quite true. But in the context of this thread, what could be called as acoustic anticipation (which is largely culture-dependent) plays an important role in one's perceptions, which could be quite at variance with delivery/intent of the performer. I will try and share more about the things that 'go into' vocal style on an instrument.

I need not dwell on the plight of Nagasvara/Veena/Flute/mandolin/chitraveena/saxophone/guitar Vidwans, who are not popular.

Shri Muni Rao, the other side of the coin is that instrumental music is globally more popular since it is not language, region/culture-centric. Which is why instrumentalists are generally at the forefront in introducing our music to international audiences, performing in global festivals etc. With CM audiences, it is fair that they would expect a multi-dimensional lyrical-spiritual-philosophical experience through vocal. Which is why a good instrumentalist must be capable of producing high quality music that inspires vocalists and satisfies vocal-centric audiences.

hanquill · Post by **hanquill** » 11 Aug 2014, 02:38

From hanquill;
Though not straight to the point,an oblique reference to the subject,which is of general nature:

I find following are the advantages of vocal music:
1. Full expression with gusto of the particular language,the singer sings:viz Whether it is Sanskrit or Telugu or Malayalam eetc.
2. Beauty of language and its usages-as you find in Dikshithar kritis.
3.Prasams:,Anuprasams,Pradamaskhra prasams,Dwidiyakshara prasams,Anthimakshara prasams, as you find in Diskhithar kritis.(totally owned by vocal music)
4.Diction of a word in a language
5. expression according to circumstances:"Chakkani raaja Maargamu"-these words require a long drawn approach.
6.Modulation of voice-according to meaning.
7 Subtility of meaning of a word.
8.Humourous expressions of words.
9.In singing Vivadi raagas or vivadi swara-vocal music win over.:Because Vivadi Swara requires a particular type of long drawn landing esp: Ru or Dhu(because it is Shatsruti)In instrumental music these can have only a limited or little effect.

Exception:Like Veena, where you can have all the Gamakas.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 11 Aug 2014, 11:41

Sri Chitraveena Ravikiran,

My observation as you rightly surmised it is restricted to our country and in the present times. Hindustani music, when it was introduced and improved its acceptance globally by Pandit Ravishankar, Ustad Ali Akbar Khan, Ustad Zakir Hussein, Ustad Amjad Ali Khan, intially the appreciation was for instrumental classical music. Later, appreciation for the vocal music also was achieved. It will also be similar to HM for KM in music appreciation, globally. I foresee, with Vedanta getting ever growing interest and following with American variant and globally in the next ten years (roughly estimated to reach 20-30 million people), religious and art music content of CM, both for instrumental and vocal music likely to reach critical mass in appreciation. To make it happen, as quickly as possible, the introduction of new initiative/aspect of vocal accompaniment to instrumental and also CM with orchestra (compositions composed and written specifically), Carnatic Music Choir and Carnatic Music opera are required. ICCR and Central and State Sangeeth Academies support are also required.
Great Maestros and Maestros of CM belonging to three generations coming together and working together is also required to achieve this goal and objectives. Ideally MA taking the overall lead and duly supported by the Federations of Sabhas (like KFAC, Bengaluru) at all the important centers of CM appreciation and having potentially to grow, is desired.
You will be the right Great Maestro to seek and get the required support from individual, collective and institutional.
As a rasika, I offer my full support to any initiative.
munirao2001

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 12 Aug 2014, 07:11

Sri Ravikiran: I like your explanation of the Deutsch illusion more than her own explanation in the past. It seems that the higher frequency note takes prominence every time.

I will try and share more about the things that 'go into' vocal style on an instrument.

I look forward to such examples. For e.g. it would be very useful to delve into how you use plucking and slides to create specific vocalization patterns. And perhaps if you could take a popular sahitya line like "chakkani rAja mArgamu", you could explain to us how you achieve the vocal effect (other than just the vallinam/mellinam) on the instrument.

chitravina ravikiran · Post by **chitravina ravikiran** » 24 Aug 2014, 00:42

With due apologies for my tardy responses and sporadic appearances, let me share a few important perspectives.

Vocal style on instruments is about technique only up to a point. It is almost 80% about evolving the required 'mindset'.

An obvious thing in the first category is - articulation of lyrics. Good gurus will require that students learn lyrics well (ideally be able to sing it roughly at least) so that they can pluck or bow or 'tongue' it appropriately on their instruments. I have been teaching even keyboard, guitar or other students to apply good articulation techniques which makes at least 40-50% difference straightaway. In the classical instruments category, plucked instruments pose more challenges due to sound decay. Long passages in padams, a few varnams or even krtis like O Rangashayi, will typically require multiple strokes with normal or no amplification. This can partially be solved with Electro-Magnetic Pick-ups but if an artiste practices at home without EMP, he/she will still carry over multiple plucks per syllable style subconsciously.

Violinists who have not mastered the 'long-bow' also fall in this category and wind-instrumentalists who articulate accurately are very very rare.

Even with right hand articulation being good, plucked and bowed strings offer another challenge at the next level - string change. This can also result in a break within syllables. Terrific investment of time and energy on mastering control and rounded tone on each string at least over 1.5-2 octaves is what I'd recommend for this. This is an exciting part to good artistes who love challenges but once they conquer it, they could get caught up more in the technique of it and actually miss out on 'applying' it for musical reasons in compositions. This can be avoided if one constantly remembers that technique is only a means, not the end in itself.

I will deal with more left hand techniques as well as levels of articulation in my next...

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 25 Aug 2014, 11:25

Sri Chitraveena Ravikiran,

Is not wind instrumentalists using the technique of 'toothukari' in blowing resorted to for the articulation of word(s) ?

munirao2001

chitravina ravikiran · Post by **chitravina ravikiran** » 26 Aug 2014, 02:11

Shri Muni Rao,

Is not wind instrumentalists using the technique of 'toothukari' in blowing resorted to for the articulation of word(s) ?

Very correct. That's what I referred to as 'tonguing', a Western technical term which indicates the use of the tongue to break the airflow into the instrument.

In my last post I had mentioned about levels of articulation. This can be obvious in some cases and subtle in others. Some schools of veena and chitravina have evolved techniques to articulate compound syllables ending in 'ra' like 'tra', 'kra', 'pra'. So words like prasanna, chakra will sound beautiful when played like this. Similarly, a word like vasishtha in Mahaganapatim (Nattai), good 'damping' technique can create a clipped effect between sish and tha.

On the other hand, articulating alternating long and short syllables in faster passages (like vAmadEvAdi in the above song) is very very subtle. I evolved a method that even I can't explain - since it is part-technique-part-instinct! But it is even more difficult for listeners to detect it in concerts with accompaniments...

Every instrumentalist must at least aim for 'average' standards of articulation that can show clear cut differences between neraval and kalpana-swaras (rather than saying that neraval is superficial in instrumental concerts!). It would also be undesirable to articulate tanam and varnam lyrics like swaras (even in the name of 'style).

Of course, higher levels of musicianship is required to project distinctions between swara and lyrics in pieces like Pancharatnas, Saptaratnas, Pada Varnams etc.

parivadini · Post by **parivadini** » 26 Aug 2014, 02:52

You guys have no IDEA how you all are directly or indirectly educating ABSOLUTE IGNORAMUS like your's truly because of such wonderful discussions. I think we are doing the world at large a big crime by not discussing this on social media sites like Facebook or tumblr ? can we explore possiblity of frisking out these feeds as xml/rss and publishing them simultaneously on social media(since I am sure a large amount of folks resent the very existence of social media)
.
Hey don't worry does not cost a pie (read- as a geek born and brought up in MADRAS basically I am cheap) thanks to open source.

Cheers
Venkat