Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 11 Sep 2014, 09:24

Just now Amrutavarshini 100.1FM is playing a Kosmic CD of tillanas sung by Dr Chithra Ramakrishnan. They didn't mention the CD or anything but I used Shazam to dig it up. the details are here:
http://mio.to/album/Chithra+Ramakrishnan/Sangam+(2008)

There are western percussion pads and keyboard synthesizers adding a lot of masala to the rendering. The fusion idea here makes one female voice be split and shaped and fed via the two channels to make it sound like two voices, a bit like a double role for Sivaji Ganesan. She mouths the words more like she's singing a Silk Smitha "item number".

The tillanas are the classics composed by Balamurali, Lalgudi, Maharajapuram Santhanam's Basant Bahar..the Dhanashri tuned by Lalgudi and so on. The composer's names are not mentioned by the announcer.

I am still listening to the broadcast as I enjoy reliving these classics despite many factors offending my sensibilities in terms of aesthetics. So I am raising a question here for the experts and avid rasikas.

When and where does one draw a Lakshman Rekha in terms of fusion?
Are you OK with the fine orchestra that "embellished" the first Lalgudi tillanas release?
Can you live with synthesizer and drums sounds accompanying your classic favourites?
Do you take offence when the words are a fervent prayer to the sage of Kanchi in the Basant Bahar tillana charana and the synthesizer sounds a really funny twang tweak or squeak in embellishment? (Please listen before you respond)
Do you want a heady feeling of eroticism or whatever evoking a New York Smoky Bar ambience as you hear words praising Krishna's charm, Kumara's grace or Ganesha's mystical connection or words referring to Parabrahman?

How much will you tolerate the culinary departure from your home base Saravana Bhavan recipe for your all-time favourite masala dosa as you tuck into it, a bit bemused, as it is embellished with mushroom, broccoli, and Chinese soy sauce, in a faraway casino restaurant in Macau?
Will you pray to your deity Durga or Devi or Amba this Dussehra in a pandal, if the image is depicted in a filmy chiffon skimpy dress with the face and other equipment of Rakhi Savant?

Please listen to the tracks and tell me what you think!!??

jodha · Post by **jodha** » 11 Sep 2014, 14:31

In a recent Chennai concert,Sanjeev Abhayankar was singing soulfully puriya dhanasree and kalaavathi.I don't know who got this crazy idea of a fusion in the meanwhile ! he was paired with Anil srinivasan on piano.they got into some extempore exercises on Hamsadhwani and later Desh.The serenity that Sanjeev had maintained collapsed like a multistory building and the rasikas were treated (?) to some nonsense music they had uncalled for.Poor Abhyankar and poor rasikas. So it was the wish of the tasteless organizers.Such unpalatable things are really thrust on the rasikas without their wish.

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 11 Sep 2014, 15:40

RSachi, I heard three thillanas in the album. The following are my observations.

I cannot appreciate the western percussion pads and synthesisers along the Carnatic music. But this is billed as fusion music. There is no strict discipline for fusion. So anything can be mixed. It is for us to take it or leave it. Given an option, I would not have listened to more than one piece. But since I wanted to write, I heard three.

I could not get any trace of Brindavani in the first thillana. It sounded to me more like Varamu or something remotely connected to that. The singer’s crooning resembled an item number as you have rightly observed.

I have enjoyed a few fusion albums also- SHAKTI, is one of my perennial favourites. some of L.Subramaniam, a fusion album of Kadri (The only Kadri album I have), etc.

But there are albums where background music has been done with aesthetics in mind- which really added to the enjoyment. I really liked the background score by music director Syam (IIRC) in the Lalgudi Thillanas LP. It is one of my favourite collections. Similarly Balamurali’s Bhadrachala Ramadas Kritis where the musical interlude is awesome. In the recent past, HMV Raghunathan has done musical interludes for Gayathri Girish ‘s two albums - one is an album of many Ragamalikas. Another is a Sthothram on the Rajarajeswari of Nanganallur. It is wonderful- adding to the musicality of the rendition.

ramanathan · Post by **ramanathan** » 11 Sep 2014, 16:06

Dear jodha, I was that "tasteless" organizer! Thanks for attending my festival...

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 11 Sep 2014, 16:06

CRama,
The Bhadrachala Ramadas cassette of BMK was an all time favourite at home! Just as his ashtapadis LP.

I believe Lalgudi himself wanted the orchestra for his tillanas LP.
Lalgudi Viji has also done a tillanas CD recently, very well. Also she and GJRK have done a Raga Rasa CD- well done.

Ganesh Kumaresh do fusion type of music well, too.

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 11 Sep 2014, 16:24

RSachi, Thanks for informing about the CDs of Lalgudi siblings. I will be in the look out for those.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Sep 2014, 19:32

jodha wrote:... the rasikas were treated (?) to some nonsense music they had uncalled for.Poor Abhyankar and poor rasikas. So it was the wish of the tasteless organizers.Such unpalatable things are really thrust on the rasikas without their wish.

ramanathan wrote:Dear jodha, I was that "tasteless" organizer! Thanks for attending my festival...

On my "to do" list: hear Anil Srinivasan play. Yes, I intend to --- but mostly the fusion things are not my cup of tea at all, so I don't go.

ramanathan, I seem to recall your event being advertised, and I don't think you made any false claims, so it is simply not true that such music is "unwanted," because people have bought tickets, or, at least, given their time to attend. jodha, what did you expect from a event "starring" a Western/carnatic pianist and a Hindustani musician? It was obviously going to be jugalbandi, fusion, or whatever word one suggests. If you feel like I do about the majority of "collaborations," then the organisers would probably be quite happy for us to stay away.

In these conversations, I always single out Flute Shashank's collaborations with Hundustani music. They are brilliant. I just don't know about Anil, I haven't heard him. I'll be happy if he gets added to my list

CRama did the job properly here, and listened to at least a sampling of the CD mentioned. I have not, nor will I, because when asked where I draw the line with a certain kind of "fusion," my answer is, outside the door, I don't want to even go there. Addition of drums, electronic or acoustic, orchestral instruments, chimes, that filmy flute-veena-violin-tabla mix, or any such thing, to carnatic music, is not fusion, it is sticking-plaster add-on, and nobody who does this stuff stops to consider that the music is already complete. Here I would certainly use use the words unwanted, at least by me, unwanted unwarranted, and simply not very nice. If everybody agreed with me, such CDs wouldn't sell any copies. Obviously the viewpoint is not unanimous.

Sticking-plaster music has no appeal for me. When musicians of whatever background get together to mix their own traditions and produce something new and different, that is a different matter. That is the secret of the incarnations of Shakti: it could never be compared to Carnatic/Hidustani music plus a drum machine.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Sep 2014, 19:54

Shakthi (power) to your words, Nick. I don't pay much attention to the big names when it comes to a fusion, confusion, sometimes collusion concerts. What comes out as music to our ears is the test.

Nick,
Shakthi and the Mahavishnu Orchestra are my cup of tea too. I also have to say that Anil Srinivasan's playing appeals to me. A private concert where he played with Viji Krishnan was lovely to listen to. So was his collaboration with Gurucharan.

The collusion part unfortunately is a result of over-enthusiasm to sing/play your bit or simply ego which makes them try and hog the piece, even forgetting the intruding instruments!

Anil Srinivasan is a laid-back person. His western music training is solid and his background in living with CM makes him a responsible musician is how I feel...

Sundara Rajan · Post by **Sundara Rajan** » 11 Sep 2014, 20:24

To an old rasika like me any fusion IS confusion and not my cup of tea. I am a purist and don't like any adulteration. However, tastes do differ. Just as film producers use the excuse that the audience demand erotic song and dance and fight scenes in the movies, the fusion masters also could say there is a segment of rasikas who like such fusion confusion. The market will decide.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Sep 2014, 20:32

Nick H wrote:Sticking-plaster music has no appeal for me. When musicians of whatever background get together to mix their own traditions and produce something new and different, that is a different matter. That is the secret of the incarnations of Shakti: it could never be compared to Carnatic/Hidustani music plus a drum machine.

...And nor is Shakti Western music plus Indian percussion. It is greater than the sum of its parts, and perhaps that is the clue.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Sep 2014, 20:55

The biggest fusion music producer who many of us here love is Ilayaraja, isn't it? We just do not label his film songs as fusion though by definition it is.

I think Nick's point 'sum being more than its parts' ('synergy') is a good criteria. IR definitely meets and exceeds that yard strck and may be that is the reason even CM aficionados tends to like his music and even have great respect for his vidwat and creativity.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 22 Sep 2014, 23:01

I am so fortunate to be able to grow in my musical sensibilities through the internet, and one thing I would never have discovered without it is the part of the world of fusion music called Remember Shakti.

I'm afraid I have always disliked fusion music, which I find to be pretentious and reductive. Every fusion piece has a name that appears to claim a lot, making a huge deal of itself, and if the listener's sensibility does not see the connection (with every benefit of the doubt being given to the artist's calibre) between the piece and the title, then it falls flat. Often the name is vague and fanciful - like "flight of fantasy" - which I find meaningless. (Which musical composition is not a flight of fantasy?) Sometimes it is a notion of a raga as representing some aspect of nature and they run with it, crystallizing an amorphous notion of the raga (or of raga in general), and making it finite rather than infinite.

My impression is most people who create fusion mostly do not understand the most important thing about Indian classical music: the music speaks for itself. A raga might evoke the morning or evening or rainy times, but that is not all it does. It is a continuous dialog between the artist and the mind of each listener. The artist gives the raga an existence, but attempts no control over its message.

I think Nick hits the nail on the head with his gestalt-type of definition of good fusion music, where the music is further elevated as a result of beautiful individual parts coming together to make a fantastic new whole.

For me, the only ones who fit the bill are Remember Shakti (sorry Mahavishnu and Shakti lovers, but then it is only my oPInion, not fact). I marvel at how strong Shankar Mahadevan is in his swarasthana in spite of the speed, how true U Srinivas is to himself and to his music.. his humility, his Indianness, his classicism - making me so sad today to experience that - and yet enjoying the freedom that this platform affords him - I don't know if I am right about that. I felt strongly when he was a 12 year old that he was trying to break out of the confining limits of Carnatic music and do more with his instrument than he was allowed to do as an upcoming youngster. I don't know much about jazz, but I am under the impression that McLaughlin confines himself to the framework of a raga but the raga itself benefits from him too, because he allows it to break out and be free, and be more than what it is allowed to be in the tradition of prayoga. The great totality becomes way more than the sum of its parts. It is not a bandaid-held contraption but a beautiful, living, breathing being of its own. It is amazing music to me.

Still I do think lesser fusion has its place. I don't cynically think it is the marketplace that decides, but the heart of the listener. Every listener, no matter how ignorant I may feel they are, is truthful and if they love what I dislike, to me that is still a sincere response and cannot be "wrong". If that kind of fusion is the album that strikes a sudden chord in someone and kindles a tiny flame of interest in what carnatic/classical music is, then it is well worth its existence.

So my answer is no one DECIDES, but everyone decides.

About this particular album, it is not my cup of tea. I don't think it would be nice to explain why and kill the joy of others, but the only constructive comment I want to make would be that this artist needs to fix excessive gamakas which are especially glaring in the Kathanakuthuhalam piece.

parivadini · Post by **parivadini** » 23 Sep 2014, 01:14

He was criticized by Carnatic purists for playing fusion music with Shakti...

And I was criticized by jazz purists for playing fusion! And Ravi Shankar was criticized for playing with Yehudi Menuhin. Purists talk rubbish. He was the purest musician you could find. Ravi Shankar used to say that music is about the meeting of cultures and minds and we don't have to compromise our own music for that. Shrinivas had a mind that was wide open but his music had purity and integrity. I grew from my experience of playing with him"

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 045691.cms

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 23 Sep 2014, 02:26

[quote="CRama"]RSachi, Thanks for informing about the CDs of Lalgudi siblings. I will be in the look out for those.[/quote
You can download it from AMAZON. VIJI'S ATTEMPT IS SO OUTSTANDING I ended the Cleveland tribute to LGJ WITH THE MAUND THILLANA BY HER AS PROOF FOR ME THAT AS LONG AS CARNATIC MUSIC OR FOR THAT MATTER ANY MUSIC EXISTS THE LALGUDI MAUND THILLANA WILL BE HAILED LIKE THE MUSIC OF JOHN SEBASTIAN BACH WHICH HAS BEEN RE-VISITED BY SO MANY MUSICIANS INCLUDING THE BEATLES WHO BRILLIANTLY PAID TRIBUTE WITH AN EXCEPTIONAL ATTEMPT. I ALSO CLAIMED THE LGJ'S COMPOSITIONS ARE SO POTENT THEY WILL BE EMBELLISHED BY FUTURE MUSICIANS LIKE VIJI & I WAS EXCITED& HAPPY VISAKA HARI ENDED HER TRIBUTE TO LGJ WITH THE MAUND THILLANA AND MAKING REFERENCE TO MANDOLIN SRINIVAS WHO ENEDED MOST HIS CONCERTS WITH A LALGUDI THILLANA. As a direct sishya prampara MUSICIAN from the school of THYAGABRAHMAM himself to me it is EXCITING LGJ FURTHERED the range of carnatic music with his compositions & his daughter VIJI has furthered the process with her attempts& ANIL SRINIVASAN HAS BRILLIANTLY ENHANCED THE BEAUTY& MUSICALITY OF LGJ'S CREATION......VKV :-@ :-BD :ymapplause: :ymapplause:

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 23 Sep 2014, 07:42

VKV, your attesting the efforts of Viji and Visakha will give them good encouragement.

I found Ranganayaki's writing very persuasive. Is she a writer/lawyer, I wonder.

When I visited the Picasso museum in Barcelona, I saw a range of his works starting from early sketches as a student in the art school. I understood that his unfettered imagination still traced its roots to a sound grounding in the art school and "values" which anchored him - like a bird with a nest to come home to can fly however and wherever he wishes.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 23 Sep 2014, 09:09

Dear RSachi,
VERY APTLY AS WELL AS VERY WELL SAID. (AS USUAL) VKV :ymapplause: :ymparty: :-BD

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 23 Sep 2014, 09:27

Rsachi wrote:
When I visited the Picasso museum in Barcelona, I saw a range of his works starting from early sketches as a student in the art school. I understood that his unfettered imagination still traced its roots to a sound grounding in the art school and "values" which anchored him - like a bird with a nest to come home to can fly however and wherever he wishes.

IT IS AMAZING WHEN WE THINK& TALK ABOUT THE BEST LIKE S.RAJAM, LGJ, PMI, MMI, GNB , MALI ETC AUTOMATICALLY WE ARE TRANSPORTED TO THE BEST WE HAVE ENCOUNTERED LIKE PICASSO, BACH & OTHERS.
FORTUNATELY I WAS ABLE TO INTRODUCE THESE GREATS IN THIS FASHION IN USA AT LEAST! VKV

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 23 Sep 2014, 15:39

Fusion sensibilities are , at first decided by the main performing artists or conductor(s) of two systems, in full appreciation of the great art form they practice and enjoy its high values seeking to partake the pleasure derived with the other artist, artists and the rasikas; secondly creating the values in the other system in their own system in practice, uncompromisingly in a live performance; thirdly, artists in mutual admiration and understanding of the systems they belong and practice, creating fusion of minds of performing artists resulting in listeners understanding and appreciation of sense of beauty, distinctly unique as well as in unity. When the artists challenge their minds and techniques to meet the excellence, in one's own and the other, quality and values of excellence is achieved, very sensibly and lastingly. When the artists are primarily focused with all the other lesser important aspects and matters of the event or performance, the performance is compromised resulting in confusion in fusion amongst the artists themselves and largely amongst the rasikas.

munirao2001

parivadini · Post by **parivadini** » 23 Sep 2014, 18:28

munirao2001 wrote:Fusion sensibilities are , at first decided by the main performing artists or conductor(s) of two systems, in full appreciation of the great art form they practice and enjoy its high values seeking to partake the pleasure derived with the other artist, artists and the rasikas; secondly creating the values in the other system in their own system in practice, uncompromisingly in a live performance; thirdly, artists in mutual admiration and understanding of the systems they belong and practice, creating fusion of minds of performing artists resulting in listeners understanding and appreciation of sense of beauty, distinctly unique as well as in unity. When the artists challenge their minds and techniques to meet the excellence, in one's own and the other, quality and values of excellence is achieved, very sensibly and lastingly. When the artists are primarily focused with all the other lesser important aspects and matters of the event or performance, the performance is compromised resulting in confusion in fusion amongst the artists themselves and largely amongst the rasikas.

munirao2001

Fantastic analysis. Kudos.

Venkat

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 23 Sep 2014, 18:31

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 23 Sep 2014, 19:31

Caveat :
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions" (from Samuel Johnson, 1775 CE)

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 23 Sep 2014, 22:01

Most of the writers here don't seem to be aware that Sakthi was started by Mahavishnu Mclaughlin w/L.Shankar, Ramnad Raghavan & his drummer & the current version w/the current ones is a JOHNNY COME LATELY.
We used to think S.B. was the fastest player till Mclaughlin became the "Usain Bolt" of all time; Not only was he fast he was PRECISE. Only L.Shankar could keep up with him then. I have attended the rehearsals & I can ATTEST to the fact that not only Mahavishnu but ALMOST ANY TOP WESTERN ARTIST who got involved w/Indian Music KNEW MORE THAN MANY writing in this forum about our music. For example taking the Beatles, Harrison when he learnt from KVN (I have attended some of the classes)was SPECTACULAR& A few months back when I was visiting VINOD VENKATARAMAN(Disciple of Palghat Raghu& the father of Aishu Venkataraman (THE IDEAL EXAMPLE OF AN EXPERT IN CARNATIC, WESTERN, JAZZ& WHAT SHD. BE CALLED THE IDEAL FUSION MUSIC music as opposed to most who are REJECTS from their initial training) Paul Mccartney called him from Holland to discuss the TALA Discrepancies in a reording he was listening to!
I wish VINOD will share his expertise which is considerable but may hesitate because of the POOR knowledge shown here. Anyone who DARES to queston Ravi Shankar or Yehudi Menuhin are ONLY EXPOSING THEIR IGNORANCE.....LET US ELEVATE THE LEVEL OF TECHNICAL DISCUSSIONS & NOT INDULGE IN PERSONAL PREJUDICES......VKV :-@

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 23 Sep 2014, 23:56

pl see next post !!

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 23 Sep 2014, 23:58

Because it is unclear in CACM's post who he says is unaware of the history Shakti, its predecessors and subsequent avatar, I would like to add context to my own post by saying that it is not out of ignorance of that history that I said I had a preference for Remember Shakti. They were definitely different from each other and I like Remember Shakti. I also said that it was just my response from my heart. I also don't doubt the greatness of any of the musicians he mentions, but no matter how great they are, I only feel what I feel.

If CACM is writing about me among others (of course it is possible that I am not included at all), then I need to explain it with an analogy. A man may have the most objectively beautiful and gracious woman for a wife, yet another man may only love his own wife. No one would think of blaming him for not loving the first one. It is a matter of the heart. It cannot be questioned. Similarly with music. Remember Shakti is my wife, and I am not keen on the others.

I don't disclaim ignorance, and yet I don't need much courage to stand by what I said.

On a different note, I really want to thank you for your use of lower case in your last post, keeping upper case for emphasis. I was on the verge of starting a one-girl mutiny

. And because I said that, Sri VKV, please don't think I don't appreciate you.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 24 Sep 2014, 00:30

On a different note, I really want to thank you for your use of lower case in your last post, keeping upper case for emphasis. I was on the verge of starting a one-girl mutiny

. And because I said that, Sri VKV, please don't think I don't appreciate you.[/quote]
I PLEAD that my age(80)+eyesight not being great+laziness makes me write the way I do. PL ignore the post if it is offensive or wrong w.r.t. to "Ettiquette" which I dont understand anyway. V.K.V.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 24 Sep 2014, 00:35

Ok, Mama, thank you. We are all fortunate to be able to receive your contributions, everything you've shared, only a small fraction of which I have been able to read or listen to. Please keep writing, I was mainly teasing you.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 24 Sep 2014, 00:42

THANKS! You are very kind tho' you are right! VKV

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 24 Sep 2014, 00:52

Ranganayaki,
VKV is one of the largehearted, open minded men that I know. His rich experience of being in the proximity of musicians and moving with them over several decades makes him a rasikA to be reckoned with.

One of his idols, MMI's music, with all the expertise, was also accompanied by a forever young and spirited devotion to it. It's not surprising that his numero uno fan turns out to be just the same in his appreciation of music!

Upper case or not in typing, VKV's experiences with music and his 'sharing' of it (in every sense of the word) are precious. A 'certain age' has not diminished his fervor and passion for good music. When I see a few much younger people being uptight about listening to any 'other' music, he is amazing in that he is open to all influences.

But the music better be good

As for you, young as you are, you do know that you are also appreciated for your sensitive appreciation of music! We like your style, and many concur, I'm sure

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 24 Sep 2014, 02:52

Arasi,
Very well said only as you can!......VKV :-ss

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 24 Sep 2014, 03:19

Many of us have been INITIALLY PUT OFF

by VKV's CAPS, but have come to know that it is his personal idiosyncrasy and style choice and nothing to do with shouting.

In fact, having met him, I really wouldn't mind if he did shout at me! But he doesn't.

In the lifetime I was living around 40 years ago, I was not fond of Mclaughlin's music. I must try it again.

I must also attend more to Vinod Venkataraman when I next see him. VKV has spilled the beans that there is a lot more to him than the academic, the mridangist, and the modest friendly guy!

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 24 Sep 2014, 03:47

So many things to respond to..

Been having a rough couple of days and VKV's post seemed to be scolding me (not shouting though). I know his age and his leadership here, so I responded as best as I could while standing up for myself. I like VKV's contributions, but I find it very hard to read his posts as the full stop/period disappears in the jungle of capital letters. I knew perfectly well that he was not shouting. That post I was referring to was such a relief in comparison that I had to thank him, and because he is an elder here, I pretended to be a kid or grandkid fighting with him and referred to myself as "one-girl". I liked that mutiny sentence, I thought it rather cute

. But I assure you all, nobody else would call me a "girl" and undoubtedly more than half my sands have already fallen through.

Thank you for your always kind even comforting words, Arasi. They came at a perfect time

and cheered me.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 24 Sep 2014, 03:54

Please continue to talk about Fusion.

I will give Mahavishnu and Shakti another try, though the thought of it makes me anxious. What I've heard was rather tough on me and I didn't try to see the details. But I usually feel frustrated at closed minds, so: One last try.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 24 Sep 2014, 06:38

On a lighter note, as I get older, I try not to hold responsible the next generation's youth and inexperience for any differences in taste

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 24 Sep 2014, 14:30

Ranganayaki wrote:I will give Mahavishnu and Shakti another try, though the thought of it makes me anxious. What I've heard was rather tough on me and I didn't try to see the details. But I usually feel frustrated at closed minds, so: One last try.

Me too. When I said I wasn't keen on Mahavishnu, this was from the record that was in the house I was living in in about 1972. I suspect that Shakti came some time after that? Perhaps it was a jazz feel at a time that I was more into rock, and rock of the more psychedelic sort. Musical tastes are odd things: at that time I did not like Hendrix, and only came to enjoy his music after I had become accustomed to Indian music!!

I know that I don't listen to music to feel "anxious," so I can understand why you should not want to, and I don't think that you should do so unless you want to. At the same time, I also recognise what you say about closed minds. Well, for the most part, I am happy to live with my "closed mind," because it is open to music that I love. Even within carnatic music, I know that perhaps I should widen my horizons!

However, I do take occasional excursions, and YouTube makes tasting the world's music very easy. A couple of days ago, I was listening to something a bit like rap. Not my sort of thing at all. But there was something to be had from it: the lyrics were cleverly written and even more cleverly arranged to the rhythm. I probably won't ever listen to that piece again, but the single experience was worthwhile.

As someone who has come from a different culture, my musical horizons ought to be automatically wider perhaps, but they are actually not. I am often amazed at the general musical knowledge of rasikas, and especially that of older generations, for example VKV, Nageswaran, who have not only taken in many musics from many cultures but are still open and willing to experience the new.

But yes, we listen to music to feel sustenance, joy, peace, uplifting; not irritation or anxiety, and I don't think that any of us should feel bad about what we don't listen to.

I am certainly not going to feel bad about my off-putting experiences of what has been called con-fusion. It was, simply, bad music, and I don't like bad music!

(Perhaps there is also good music that I don't like. Perhaps it is good but just doesn't happen to suit me.)

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 24 Sep 2014, 18:17

The few (con)fusion concerts I've heard, and our school and college attempts where we tried it out ourselves, all went for the electrifying factor -- somewhere along the way it becomes a matter of a) how much faster can you go up and down scales and arpeggios or b) Can you go high up that you can jump off the fingerboard ? and sometimes c) How much louder can it get? and sometimes d) Does the drums really suit the mood (since drums and cymbals are not pitched instruments) ? and even d) How much more moto perpetuo (non-stop notes) can you keep improvising ? and e) How far can you build one grand musical monument before the whole thing comes crashing down when something that sounds totally irrelevant suddenly gets taken up and f) How many times can one avoid resorting to the same old patterns and cliches ? and sometimes g) Can you put up with artificial audience reactions ever so often?

The wow factor works well for a while, but soon the energy becomes too much to take. After a few concerts, you want something of greater depth -- tonally, tempo wise, rhythmically, aesthetically musically, emotionally (and lyrically). I don't want the "Use and throw variety" that goes viral today and is forgotten tomorrow.

Current (Con)fusion needs to become more multidimensional at exploring the full range of "rasa colours". And that isn't going to happen just by mixing oil and water -- they'd have to combine chemically into a new compound which can offer that depth seen in their original genres. For that all the artists need to know each other's music and musical tastes thoroughly well (as I found out in one jam session when all our ideas at improvising a violin-guitar-tabla combo went down the drain). To me the success of a fusion performance to me is when I see that the audience really loved it, and when the musicians really enjoy their own performance, and when you still remember the music after all those years.

Speaking of fusion, take a lot at old film music. Very old film songs did a marvelous job of fusing CM with a full orchestra no less. I could say that all the all time classic cinema songs over the decades are the very evolution of fusion of their times.

Meanwhile, I keep wondering if I'll hear a Carnatic concerto someday live where someone will skillfully introduce a round of swaras where you'd improvise a cadenza or where the whole 3rd movement may be a ragamalika tanam that somehow integrates with an orchestra? Or wait, does something like that already exist? Will I get to hear a fusion INVERSION where a great Carnatic krithi is rendered in French

or English

or even ... Japanese?

Will that create an "English Isai" controversy?

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 24 Sep 2014, 18:32

Srinath,
Try Ravikiran Mel harmony.
I found it very melodious, very Carnatic, and perfect as a Western symphony.
I didn't watch the Cleveland presentation this year. Maybe someone may please tell us about it.
The only thing perhaps wisely left out in Mel harmony that I heard was loud percussion.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 24 Sep 2014, 18:54

I've been listening to it. Very soon I may indeed see the Carnatic Concerto No. 1. Maybe even ragamalika sonatas. But "English Isai" might really spark a controversy

Also I just got hold of the Madras string quartert's album "Resonance" and I'm sold -- while sowkhyam predominates, seriously, just listen to that Raghuvamsa!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 24 Sep 2014, 19:49

Yay to Ravikiran's melharmony and Madras String Quartet. And Anil Srinivasan's Piano collaborations with Carnatic singers to the mix for a different dimension to this puzzle.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 24 Sep 2014, 19:50

I have the Raga Saga of VS Narasimhan's quartet.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 24 Sep 2014, 20:26

Ranganayaki wrote:I usually feel frustrated at closed minds, so: One last try.

That is nice of you to apply to yourself what you find frustrating with others.

Your statement reminded me of an aspect of music that is very much related to the topic at hand, namely who decides on the fusion sensibilities. Hope you do not mind me writing about it in the context of your statement.

I have thought about my own differences in relative interest between Carnatic vs Hindusthani . Will some one else feel frustrated about my 'closed mind'? Probably so. But there is a point at which one has to own up to their tastes and not feel any less about that in comparison to someone else with more egalitarian tastes.

At one level it is all silly. Why does it matter what others think of my tastes, my tastes are mine and I will expand or shrink it at my own pace and free will. But we all know that there is a massive sociological aspect to music and art.

Those sociological aspects bring to focus the concepts of 'private' music and 'public' music. It is so in the following sense. Outward display of your tastes in music communicates something about you. Such outward displays are things like the concerts we go to, our CD collection prominently displayed for visitors to see or the FM channels in your car radio preset. iPod took away the middle part and it is now replaced by sharing publicly your playlists in social networks. Such 'shared contexts' are important for social communication since that outward display helps us relate to other people, engage in debates and the 'charming' nature of many of us to evangelize our likes in music to others.

One curious phenomenon sets in which is only natural. People use that sociological connection between the 'outward display' of musical tastes and personality to their advantage. If one wants to communicate a different personality, it is much easier to change that 'outward display' rather than one's personality itself. So you feel you need to 'belong' to a crowd, one easy way to do that is to establish a 'shared context' through the music the crowd relates to. This is not just true for music, you can see this in action in other arts forms, the books in your display case, the sports you watch. There are this 'private' vs 'public' aspect to each one of them and others can not tell if they are the same or different. Only you can tell and that too only if you are consciously aware of it through a bit of self-reflection.

These are not small things, this phenomenon drives major things in what music gets heard and propagated. This also explains why musical genres and styles come and go. And many times these changes have not much to do with the inherent musical merits of the style. Those who are in the business of promoting and evangelizing music need to be aware of it and have a well thought out plan to cultivate the 'public' and sociological aspects to gain the important leverage to help with their efforts.

In this 'public music' sense, fusion sensibilities are decided by such complex social factors rather than any individual merits of music or the 'private music'al tastes of individuals. They are necessary but not sufficient.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 24 Sep 2014, 21:18

I personally feel that to properly follow what is being attempted IN "GOOD FUSION" MUSIC VERY GOOD UNDERSTANDING of the capabilities of GOOD FUSION MUSIC with respect to Indian Music Aspects s well as at least a semi-knowledgeable of WESTERN MUSIC in all its forms is needed. I personally define "Good Fusion" music as that created & performed by prmonenent & the TRULY GREAT ARTISTS like Ravi Shankar with almost ALL his collaborative attempts with various systems & today OUR OWN RAVI KIRAN who also doubled as composers. BOTH OF THEM have made ORIGINAL BREAK THROUGHS &CONTRIBUTIONS.
Due to LACK OF space, time, energy etc let me GROSSLY (not completely accurately) CLASSIFY the rest of Fusion Music as spotty at best (like the Carnatic Music of today compared to theBEST of "GOLDEN AGE"-1945-1980). Both are subject to OPINIONS-USUALLY attributed to AGE of the listeners- and this Forum has lively exchanges of opinions in the Carnatic music areas. The FUSION AREA discussions are PRIMITIVE as far as I am concerned. Tho' individual favourites like L.Shanker, L.S., Ravi S ARE GREAT ARTISTES, as a group from the point of view of many, the FUSION GROUP are MEDIOCRE PRACTICIONERS who have not even succeeded in their original disciplines.
I feel like any one interested in Creative& Innovative variations in Classical Music (East&WEST) SHOULD AS A MINIMUM listen to Ravi Shankar concerto for Sitar&Orchesta (the London Symphony Orchestra conducted by Andre Previn) for starters (&progress to his other works) in which I CLAIM R.S. has managed to cover three thousand if not five thousand years of Indian History MUSICALLY in his first entry into the Symphony in the first two minute solo entry with the Sitar. Similarly the lack of realising Ravi Kiran's Melharmony Innovations speaks volumes about the sorry state of serious listening......LET US have a rigourous& vigourous serious discussinon on the subject of FUSION as enough expets exist in this forum. Just saying I like this & don't like that is somewhat equivalent to saying Saravana Bhavan Dosa is better than RAYAR HOTEL Dosa of yesteryear which GNB (if he was around today) would not have agreed to!.........VKV :-@

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 24 Sep 2014, 21:32

my 2 cents (having experimented with this in my own limited way)

- Fusion music, perhaps by definition is experimental music (and hence it is also not necessarily fully bound by rules of the music it attempts to fusing together?)
- And experimental implies risk - which means there will be as much failures as success i.e. there will be a significant % of experimental music which will be lost on to most consumers (and/or fall flat on its face).
- Appreciation of any experimental music does require a wide open mind. This only means to drop/relax hard-set preferences/biases - not necessarily an easy thing

- On top, classical music crowd is perhaps one of the most risk-averse crowd. So even what others may think as good attempts would be pooh-poohed. Hence the casual broad stroke of adding 'con' to fusion.

From what I can tell, most/many cm rasikas perceive to fusion with this sub-conscious preconceived notion: "CM is the greatest thing ever. So I want to see the elements of cm that I perceive and cherish to be in no way compromised when I listen to this music. If it is in anyway, compromised, then it is not worth anything". It does require we drop/relax our most cherished tastes of raga flavors - it is a hard thing

Arun

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 24 Sep 2014, 22:09

My CTQS (critical to quality or acceptance criteria) for fusion music:
1. Should not be too loud.
2. Should be melodious ( ie some tunefulness)
3. The rhythm is desirable but should not be a head thumping loud beat
4. Each genre exponent should be really good in that genre
5. There should be mutual accommodation.. A sense of cooperation
6. Nothing excessive...either individual turns or the overall length of a piece
7. The music should have a progressive build up.. Not that it moves, stalls, starts again...
8. No raucous head-banging audience around.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 24 Sep 2014, 22:28

Vasanthakokilam,

Good going. One of the 'practicing' musicians of fusion among us--rara avis these days?

has posted.

Arun,
Hope you bring more of your experience to this discussion.

Sachi,
In my experience, the melharmonic of Ravikiran meets with all your criteria. The Madras String Quartet is another. Anil's ventures too--except when once he was part of a huge orchestra, the percussion section did drown us in noise!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 24 Sep 2014, 23:12

my subliminal point was - while much fusion music certainly can be failed experiments, cm rasikas on the other hand just might not have wide perspective to appreciate experimentation (or atleast even the slightly bolder variety).

(case in point but also in jest raschi!) If one has 10 constraints for something to be considered good, 1 among 1000 experiments may pass those criteria , and thus it will not be surprising if most experiments fail to come through nicely.

Perhaps fusion music should be consumed on its own - rather seeing it as fusion of X and Y, and why it sucks because neither the essence of X nor Y makes an impact to one personally. Perhaps that is how it ought to be created - rather than a deliberate attempt at fusion.

(Note: edited to include the missing operative word not

)

Arun

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 24 Sep 2014, 23:26

[quote="arunk"
Perhaps fusion music should be consumed on its own - rather seeing it as fusion of X and Y, and why it sucks because neither the essence of X nor Y makes an impact to one personally. Perhaps that is how it ought to be created - rather than a deliberate attempt at fusion.
Arun
I AGREE. THE USE OF THE WORD FUSION ONLY PRODUCES CON-FUSION....VKV

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 24 Sep 2014, 23:29

Arunk,
For every definition of what should be the ideal fusion music (criteria which no one is obliged to fulfill!),
We seem to come up with an equally impractical definition of what the ideal fusion listener or rasika should be!

It's that story of the man who remained a bachelor because no one met his criteria for the ideal bride... Since every bride is also looking for the ideal groom who he wasn't!!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 25 Sep 2014, 01:14

Fusion folks create confusion, some say--a
Profusion of bands in that genre seem to be
In search of whatever they seek--what else?
Miscellaneous music shelters under 'fusion'

How can listeners know in a tower of Babel
Of music which is which? Utter confusion...

Another puzzle for us to figure out--How?
How do we find anything anyway?
Best in grocery, the best school,
Best broom, best groom?

And good fusion music?
Word of mouth helps
A bit of surfing and sampling
On the net, one could say

Even then, it all comes down to our own
Personal taste, background and our ways
Which makes us question anything
Even within the bounds of carnatic music!

VK,
Agree with you...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 25 Sep 2014, 02:13

arunk wrote:Perhaps fusion music should be consumed on its own - rather seeing it as fusion of X and Y, and why it sucks because neither the essence of X nor Y makes an impact to one personally. Perhaps that is how it ought to be created - rather than a deliberate attempt at fusion.

Absolutely. This is what several of us have said: the music succeeds when it stands alone in its own right, but not when it tries to patchwork elements that don't really fit together.

Did it all start with English Note? :ymsigh:

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 25 Sep 2014, 02:54

Actually Nick, while that is the conclusion people have drawn as to why they dont like most fusion, I am questioning whether that is the real/main reason (btw it is a rather convenient conclusion in some regards because it focuses the "blame" away from us)

Arun