Walking with Shrinivas - ABC of CM instrumental mastery

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Rsachi
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Walking with Shrinivas - ABC of CM instrumental mastery

Post by Rsachi »

I am writing this after a fine walk with Mandolin Shrinivas. To be more precise- I walked listening to that fine concert recording with Flute Ramani, violin and two mridangams.

I think the legacy of Shrinivas is a formula of how to become a great Carnatic instrumentalist.

I think he combined the Ganga of Thyagaraja's bhakti, the Yamuna of musical appeal of Shyama Shastri and the Sarasvati of knowledge of Dikshitar. He also created an ABC formula.

A. First master the Carnatic music Lakshana and Lakshya.

B. He mastered an instrument and made it a miniature veena with power, range, speed, melody and every aspect of Carnatic music we may want.

C. He developed a charming, happy and generous musical personality.


That's a lasting legacy, worth emulating for every future instrumentalist!


Image

Rsachi
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Re: Walking with Shrinivas - ABC of CM instrumental mastery

Post by Rsachi »

Postscript: Lalgudi Jayaraman is the unparalleled king of instrumental mastery in Carnatic music, but going beyond the instrument, accompanying, composing, playing solo, training, influencing a whole generation.

But in Mandolin Shrinivas, we have a 100% instrumentalist. He didn't accompany. He didn't venture into the greener pasture of vocal music. He was a phenomenon who simply stuck to what he was a total master at- playing the solo mandolin. That's a role model for future 100% instrumentalists.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Walking with Shrinivas - ABC of CM instrumental mastery

Post by Ranganayaki »

RSachi, to me, your first post humorously conveys the awe he inspires, and the ease with which he achieved it from day 1.. if we didn't know that, you would seem to be recommending putting the horse before the cart! :) He was blessed, and he worked hard.

But I have a beef with #2. The first para is great, but the "But" starting off the second paragraph implies a comparison where Lalgudi does not fare well. You seem to imply that Lalgudi was not a 100 percent instrumentalist. Accompanying others is not a fault in an instrumentalist and doesn't make them less of one. Lalgudi venturing into the pasture of vocal music does not make him a vocalist and I am not sure that it was a greener pasture for him (musically speaking - it would be unseemly to speak from any other angle). I believe that if he had chosen to be a vocalist at a young age, we would never have known how great he truly was. As a composer, I think he was influenced by his instrument..

I don't think Shrinivas' greatness came from what he did not do.

I do admit that I am a fan of Lalgudi's, but not a fanatic. Still, your comparison seems unfair. :) And Lalgudi of age 40, great as he was, was still Lalgudi 80 in the making. Shrinivas, fantastic as he was, was not yet a Lalgudi.. He was well on the way, but he had not yet reached there. I think that is what I am mourning.. the loss of the genius who had so much more to give us. That's how Gamakam's words make even more sense.. let them keep the music.. that's over.. it's done.. we want him, the fountainhead.

Rsachi
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Re: Walking with Shrinivas - ABC of CM instrumental mastery

Post by Rsachi »

Ranganayaki,
Thank you. It gives me a chance to clarify my thoughts.
1. Shrinivas did not have all the dimensions of Lalgudi. Lalgudi is uniquely multidimensional.
2. There is a cry heard often that instrumentalists don't fare well in CM. But Shrinivas achieved all his greatness in just one area - being a great solo instrumentalist! So that gives a lot of food for thought.
3. What can a budding instrumentalist learn from Shrinivas? That's the ABC I tried to define.
To say Shrinivas was a rare genius and one of a kind can sometimes obfuscate the learning we can get from his example. That was the trigger for my topic.

I think the way everything came together for Shrinivas was a divine phenomenon. At the same time I think Shrinivas quietly worked on the ABC I listed, 24/7.
Like every tribute and comment here, mine also is limited and confined to that one aspect. That's it.

I think you can relate to my thoughts if you hear that duet with Flute Ramani - S'Priya.

I meant no disrespect at all to either Lalgudi or Shrinivas. Sorry if I sounded like that.

(instrumentalist turned vocalist - many examples were in my mind other than Lalgudi.)

SrinathK
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Re: Walking with Shrinivas - ABC of CM instrumental mastery

Post by SrinathK »

While comparisons may be made, I ought to point out that the violin completely monopolized the accompanists' department (and still does) to the extent that this became too much of a good thing. When all other instruments were always solo-worthy, a lot of people got so conditioned that they couldn't see the violin as more than an accompanying instrument -- one case of criticism leveled at the Veena Violin Venu ensemble couldn't tolerate that the "pathetic case" where the "violin accompanist" had put his instrument level with the veena and the flute. The violin had a long journey before it proved it's solo capabilities in CM. This problem is unique to the violin and to my knowledge did not exist for other instruments.

The greatness of Shrinivas' music is that on the mandolin, he achieved as a kid a feat that took several generations of violinists to do -- develop a technique that could play any Carnatic nuance on the instrument. But even that comparison has it's limits. Should I compare a fretted instrument to a fretless one with a bow? The electric mandolin appeared on the scene in the 80s. The violin appeared 150+ years ago when CM nuances were dramatically different from where they have advanced to today. So I could argue that violin technique would have required a much longer time frame to evolve to where it is today.

Shrinivas was also a pioneer of another kind as he designed the modern form of the instrument and developed all it's capabilities as it exists now.

In art, there is no one right formula, but a lot of uniquely right solutions :)

uday_shankar
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Re: Walking with Shrinivas - ABC of CM instrumental mastery

Post by uday_shankar »

Rsachi wrote:A. First master the Carnatic music Lakshana and Lakshya.

B. He mastered an instrument and made it a miniature veena with power, range, speed, melody and every aspect of Carnatic music we may want.

C. He developed a charming, happy and generous musical personality.

That's a lasting legacy, worth emulating for every future instrumentalist!
I've been reading a lot of tributes everywhere about Shrinivas, all well meaning and good, but nothing captures the truth about the man and his music like this set of ABC and the following conclusions about his legacy. Very, very well said and succint, Rsachi. I am going to create small printouts of this (with attribution!) and hand it out when anybody asks me about Shrinivas :).
SrinathK wrote:Shrinivas was also a pioneer of another kind as he designed the modern form of the instrument and developed all it's capabilities as it exists now.
I am somewhat less starry eyed about this and this probably does not represent the facts correctly. Shrinivas and the electric "mandolin" followed the successful adaptation of the electric guitar to Carnatic music by Sukumar Prasad in the 70's and 80's. The tuning, fret heights and playing techniques between the two electric instruments are identical (the extra lower string in the guitar tuned to a seldom used lower Pa). Of course, Shrinivas took his wizardry to heights that will probably never be repeated for ages.

In a historical context, the adaptation of the violin to Carnatic music is probably a marriage made in heaven like none other. In comparison the adaptation and playing techniques of the electric guitar/electric mandolin is quite straightforward and flow quite intuitively once somebody holds one of these in his hands. In contrast, when Baluswamy Dikshithar first saw the violin, some Englishman was probably standing up holding it parallel to the ground and playing staccato notes. Today, 150 years later, it is the most versatile instrument of Carnatic expression, soon to be foisted on a god/goddess.

Rsachi
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Re: Walking with Shrinivas - ABC of CM instrumental mastery

Post by Rsachi »

Uday, coming from you it is an honour. Thanks!

SrinathK
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Re: Walking with Shrinivas - ABC of CM instrumental mastery

Post by SrinathK »

@uday_shankar I didn't know that. Did you learn the mandolin?

Ranganayaki
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Re: Walking with Shrinivas - ABC of CM instrumental mastery

Post by Ranganayaki »

Rsachi wrote:Ranganayaki,
Thank you. It gives me a chance to clarify my thoughts.
1. Shrinivas did not have all the dimensions of Lalgudi. Lalgudi is uniquely multidimensional.
2. There is a cry heard often that instrumentalists don't fare well in CM. But Shrinivas achieved all his greatness in just one area - being a great solo instrumentalist! So that gives a lot of food for thought.
3. What can a budding instrumentalist learn from Shrinivas? That's the ABC I tried to define.
To say Shrinivas was a rare genius and one of a kind can sometimes obfuscate the learning we can get from his example. That was the trigger for my topic.

...

I think you can relate to my thoughts if you hear that duet with Flute Ramani - S'Priya.

I meant no disrespect at all to either Lalgudi or Shrinivas. Sorry if I sounded like that.

RSachi, your 1-2-3 put THIS way makes a huge difference and it is hard to disagree with. I think #3 is quite important, and #2 is true.

I have been reading your contributions with admiration for a while now and you rival :) Vasanthakokilam in collegiality. You keep the discussion civil always. You meant no disrespect and there is no need to apologize. I wouldn't have written back otherwise.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Walking with Shrinivas - ABC of CM instrumental mastery

Post by Ranganayaki »

[/quote]
SrinathK wrote:While comparisons may be made
Yes comparisons may be made. They offer context, as well as deeper understanding, often of influences and achievements. But the comparison I perceived did not seem relevant. Of course RSachi has clarified and it turns out that What he meant is quite important.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Walking with Shrinivas - ABC of CM instrumental mastery

Post by Ranganayaki »

uday_shankar wrote: Shrinivas and the electric "mandolin" followed the successful adaptation of the electric guitar to Carnatic music by Sukumar Prasad in the 70's and 80's. The tuning, fret heights and playing techniques between the two electric instruments are identical (the extra lower string in the guitar tuned to a seldom used lower Pa). Of course, Shrinivas took his wizardry to heights that will probably never be repeated for ages.
Uday Shankar, I remember Sukumar Prasad from the late '70s, more than 12 or 15 years before I heard of Guitar Prasanna. He was related to M Chandrashekhar and it was a fascinating new idea for me. I THINK he even appeared on black and white Chennai Doordarshan once, I think he had no accompaniment for that exposition. Later, I always wondered why he did not rise in the music world and suddenly in this context I think I understand why. He was a whole generation older than Mandolin Srinivasan and I am wondering if the storm that occurred in Chennai over Mandolin Srinivasan simply drowned him out. He was probably just discovering himself and the guitar at that time. It never occurred to me to ask here about him, and I wonder if anyone has better information than my conjecture. Please do discuss.
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 28 Sep 2014, 21:12, edited 2 times in total.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Walking with Shrinivas - ABC of CM instrumental mastery

Post by Ranganayaki »

uday_shankar wrote: I am somewhat less starry eyed about this and this probably does not represent the facts correctly. Shrinivas and the electric "mandolin" followed the successful adaptation of the electric guitar to Carnatic music by Sukumar Prasad in the 70's and 80's. The tuning, fret heights and playing techniques between the two electric instruments are identical (the extra lower string in the guitar tuned to a seldom used lower Pa). Of course, Shrinivas took his wizardry to heights that will probably never be repeated for ages.
Is that all? I believe U Srinivas also modified his mandolin to enable him to play notes without strumming for over a minute and a half.. Wasn't that his own innovation on the mandolin? I don't think that was done by anyone (in CM) before him. Please do correct me if I am wrong.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Walking with Shrinivas - ABC of CM instrumental mastery

Post by Ranganayaki »

Wanted to share this. Just found this on a search of Sukumar Prasad on Youtube. This is way way nicer than I remembered and it says it must be from the 70's!!!! He needs to be heard more, I think. Is he still active, am I just ignorant of it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xqDRBVETDI

uday_shankar
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Re: Walking with Shrinivas - ABC of CM instrumental mastery

Post by uday_shankar »

Ranganayaki wrote:I believe U Srinivas also modified his mandolin to enable him to play notes without strumming for over a minute and a half.. Wasn't that his own innovation on the mandolin?
Indeed that's not true. First, an entire universe separates the "mandolin", the acoustic instrument used western folk and some classical music, and the electric mandolin. Shrinivas has always played the electric mandolin, which was a pre-existing instrument. The "innovation" here, if any, is reducing the number of strings (8 or 4 pairs) to 5 and tuning them to SA-PA-SA-PA-SA. Even the changed tuning was already anticipated on the electric guitar by Sukumar Prasad and others. The electric mandolin is practically identical to the electric guitar played by Sukumar Prasad and Prasanna. The big misconception is the word "mandolin". Much confusion would have been resolved if he were known as "Electric guitar Shrinivas".

Ranganayaki
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Re: Walking with Shrinivas - ABC of CM instrumental mastery

Post by Ranganayaki »

So is there any justification for calling it the mandolin? What is that minute difference which makes you say "practically identical" and not just "identical"?

uday_shankar
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Re: Walking with Shrinivas - ABC of CM instrumental mastery

Post by uday_shankar »

Ranganayaki,
No there's no justification in linking the instrument played by Shrinivas to the acoustic mandolin. Much hilarious and ridiculously uninformed ink, as is only possible in the carnatic world, has been spilled linking Shrinivas to the "transformation of the Italian folk insturment" into a vehicle of Carnatic gamakams :). A small number of people who actually know about instruments know that the acoustic mandolin is particularly unsuited to playing any kind of gamakams. The frets are waaay too high to effect any kind of sliding motion over the strings.

The height of the frets (i.e., how much relief they have over the underlying fretboard) bear some explaining. They are directly responsible for whether or not we can effect a sliding motion called gamakam over the strings. The acoustic mandolin has the highest frets. Next comes the acoustic guitar, definitely a step lower than the acoustic mandolin. Therefore some reasonable sliding motion can be effected over them. The electric versions, both for guitar and mandolin, have extremely short frets, mere bumps over the fretboard. This is the key feature which enables the ability to slide over them and play gamakams. And of course, the unlimited sustain offered by the amplification via pick up ensures that the slides are audible. One doesn't even have to press the string down on the fret to be audible. This is the key to the perception of "continuity" while sliding on a fretted instrument.

It may also be worthwhile to point out that unlike the vina, there is no pulling of the strings in the Carnatic guitar/mandolin playing technique. In this sense it is more like the violin or chitravina. What is ironical is that in rock music and blues music, they do pull on the electric guitar strings a little to effect the typical wailing bending of the notes.

Electric mandolins come in different varieties, from a hollow body to the solid body, and can have 5 or 8 strings (typically 4 pairs, as in the acoustic mandolin). The instrument played by Shrinivas is the "solid body electric mandolin", practically an electric guitar. It relies entirely on the amplifier pick up exactly like the electric guitar.

As regards the differences:
a) Electric mandolin is smaller in size, i.e., the fretboard is probably 60-70% the length of a standard electric guitar. This makes it easier to play rapid fire passages of melody but much more cramped for playing chords (which are not needed in Carnatic music).
b) Electric mandolin used by Shrinivas had the facility for up to 8 strings, whereas the lead guitar usually has only 6 strings (OK, there's something called the BASS guitar, with 4 very thick strings, which is not relevant to the discussion). Out of the 8 possible strings, Shrinivas used only 5, leaving the other tuning keys as dummies (i.e., only five strings were actually "strung" on the instrument).

In western music, the solid body electric mandolin has a very very limited use, since the solid body electric guitar is more versatile due to its tuning and the ability to play leads and chords. In a peculiar way, Shrinivas was the best vehicle in the world for this instrument !

UPDATE:
I saw some more photos of Shrinivas' "mandolin", including the one above, and it turns out that in recent times, he's discarded the older modified 8 string version to a modified 6 string version. In either case, the insrtument is strung with only 5 strings but in the older case there were three dummy tuning keys, while in the newer ones there's only one.

munirao2001
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Re: Walking with Shrinivas - ABC of CM instrumental mastery

Post by munirao2001 »

udaykumar Sir

Is it possible that 'guitar' not getting the acceptance or popularity in Carnatic Music, Shrinivos's Guru, Srinivos's Father and Shrinivos himself preferred mandolin to the actual 'solidbody electric guitar' identity? Seeking the answer for purely academic reason.

munirao2001

uday_shankar
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Re: Walking with Shrinivas - ABC of CM instrumental mastery

Post by uday_shankar »

Muni Rao Sir:
I don't think so...Shrinivas did play a mandolin, except it was the electric mandolin. So it's technically more OK to call him "Mandolin Shrinivas". The problem is that commentators who don't know anything about musical instruments, when the google the word "mandolin" see an Italian acoustic instrument that is practically impossible to play CM on. And they don't know the universe that separates it from the electric mandolin of Shrinivas. And they don't know that in the process of "electrifying" it (not by Shrinivas but as a natural evolution of many western instruments: Shrinivas played an off the shelf instrument except for the omission of strings), the "mandolin" turned into a de facto baby electric guitar.

PS: I get uncomfortable when people carelessly address me as "udaykumar" or "udayakumar" :).

munirao2001
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Re: Walking with Shrinivas - ABC of CM instrumental mastery

Post by munirao2001 »

uday_shankar Sir,

I am sorry, I stand corrected. In the recent past, I have noticed I have made three mistakes-One Venkatakailasam for Vasantakokilam;Second arasi Sir; Third udaykumar for uday_shankar. With this uday, I will not make mistakes any more.

munirao2001

rshankar
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Re: Walking with Shrinivas - ABC of CM instrumental mastery

Post by rshankar »

Uday - your post made me look at the tribute concert by Arvind Bhargav being webcast live by Parivadini closely - and for the first time, I see what you mean by 'small electric guitar'.

uday_shankar
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Re: Walking with Shrinivas - ABC of CM instrumental mastery

Post by uday_shankar »

Ravi
To make the contrast between the instruments even clearer, here's a brilliant western classical acoustic mandolin player Y H Chen of China (the one on the left of course!):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmMdiMfENNw

Now watch Arvind Bhargav who plays the Carnatic "mandolin",i.e., the mini electric guitar. The clip is illustrative in that it has excellent close ups:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utM_mSO92vg

rshankar
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Re: Walking with Shrinivas - ABC of CM instrumental mastery

Post by rshankar »

Uday - could not be clearer! :)

Rsachi
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Re: Walking with Shrinivas - ABC of CM instrumental mastery

Post by Rsachi »

And here is an Indian mandolin player from the other side of the moon.
Snehasish Mozumder & Sound of Mandolin live at th…: http://youtu.be/i-STnpoBoOg

Rsachi
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Re: Walking with Shrinivas - ABC of CM instrumental mastery

Post by Rsachi »

For those unable to locate the Shrinivas Ramani Duet:
http://www.sangeethamshare.org/manjunat ... t-USA-1993

Concert_details-n_RamaNi-u_shrInivAs-Flute_Madolin_duet-USA-1993

Concert_details:
Artists:
1.shri.n_RamaNi-Flute
2.shri.u_shrInivAs-Mandolin
3.Shri.Peri Sri RAma MUrthy-Violin
4.shri.Vellore_RAmaBhadhran-Mrudhanga
5.shri.KV_prasAdh-Mrudhanga

venue: USA
Date: 1993

Contents:
01-evari_bhOdhana_vini-varNa-abhOgi-Adhi_patNam_subramaNya_iyer
02-shri_mahA_gaNapathi_ravathumAm-gouLa-mishra_chApu-MutthuswAmy_dhIkshithar
03-dhinamaNi_vamsha-HarikAmbOdhi-Adhi-thyAgarAja
04-sAmaja_vara_gamana-HindhOLa-Adhi-thyAgarAja
05-RTP-AlApane_thAna-kalyANi
06-RTP-Pallavi-kalyANi_Adhi-rAgamAlike-Anandhabhairavi_kAmbOdhi_kAnada_REvathi
07-thani_Avarthane-Mrudhanga_duet-Adhi-RTP_continued_with_kalyANi_kalpana_swarAs
08-nArAyaNa-shuDDha_DhanyAsi-Khanda_chApu-puranDhara_dhAsa
09-brOva_bArama-bahudhAri-Adhi-thyAgarAja
10-MAnasa_sanchararE_bramhaNi-sAma-Adhi-sadhAshiva_BramhEndhra
11-AdisidhaLu_yashOdha-kApi-Adhi-puranDhara_dhAsa
12-thillAna-Dhanashri-Adhi-swAthi_thirunAL
13-pavamAna-MangaLa-sourAshtra-Adhi-thyAgarAja

hnbhagavan
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Re: Walking with Shrinivas - ABC of CM instrumental mastery

Post by hnbhagavan »

I do not think comparison of Mandolin wizard and Lalgudi sir is appropriate. Sri U Srinivas himself had high regard for Lalgudi sir and played Lalgudi Sir's compositions.The facets of all round music of Lalgudi sir is revolutionary in carnatic music.Likewise Mandolin srinivas was the unconquered king of the instrument.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Walking with Shrinivas - ABC of CM instrumental mastery

Post by Ranganayaki »

hnbhagavan wrote:I do not think comparison of Mandolin wizard and Lalgudi sir is appropriate. Sri U Srinivas himself had high regard for Lalgudi sir and played Lalgudi Sir's compositions.The facets of all round music of Lalgudi sir is revolutionary in carnatic music.Likewise Mandolin srinivas was the unconquered king of the instrument.
hnb, that question was satisfactorily resolved. There was never anything inappropriate in this thread, even in post 2.

Let us stick to the other things being discussed, if anyone has anything more to say.

Uday Shankar, thanks for your response to my question. I"m looking forward to listening to the concert posted here. Thank you, RSachi.

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