Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
vasanthakokilam
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Did it all start with English Note?
Muthuswamy Dikshithar was the first great fusion artist as far CM is concerned.

English note is a perfectly fine and enjoyable piece on its own right. Other than the fact it uses swaras, composed by a CM composer and occasionally rendered in CM concerts, there is really not a major connection to the core CM. In fact if not for a major personality like MMI, I am not even sure if CM world would have embraced it to the extent they did. Imagine that it was first sung by someone else in a film. It would have been tough for anyone to introduce it in a CM concert. I treat it along the same lines as some of the folk songs that Mali used to play in concerts. They are all a lot of fun but at the periphery of core CM.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by Ranganayaki »

I think it is extraordinary that Dikshitar had the openness of mind to try to listen to and understand Western music while being steeped in the deepest of Hindu tradition. I can't help saying this, and I don't mean to offend anyone: English note is lovely as a little ditty to have fun with, teach children and showcase to curious friends of his, but it is not concert-worthy.

arasi
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by arasi »

You mean, CM concert-worthy :)
Give it to the 'fusion' folks (within quotes to specify the 'so-called') and they will build (fluff up) a whole evening out of it :-o

sureshvv
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by sureshvv »

Don't really understand why we have to be so judgmental about music. Let the people who like it listen to it. And if you don't like it, don't listen to it. Just go with your gut feel. Can't we all just get along? :-)

Rsachi
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by Rsachi »

You're so right Suresh.
Did you listen to the linked album in the beginning?
What do you feel, please?

sureshvv
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by sureshvv »

The pallu on the saree and the mallipoo seemed overdone.. So I decided to skip the album ;-)

Ranganayaki
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by Ranganayaki »

sureshvv wrote:Don't really understand why we have to be so judgmental about music. Let the people who like it listen to it. And if you don't like it, don't listen to it. Just go with your gut feel. Can't we all just get along? :-)
Yes, I don't know what prompted me to write that.

Rsachi
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by Rsachi »

:D

Nick H
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by Nick H »

arunk wrote:Actually Nick, while that is the conclusion people have drawn as to why they dont like most fusion, I am questioning whether that is the real/main reason (btw it is a rather convenient conclusion in some regards because it focuses the "blame" away from us)
It is, in so far as I have analysed, my reason for not liking it. I suppose I could have stopped at just saying, LOL-cat
fashion, DO NOT WANT! And I do not blame anyone who does not go any further than their simple gut reaction. Of course, we don't have to justify our tastes to anyone else, it is fine just to have them, but we like to discuss, and, when we see a certain kind of performance, particularly if sufficient number find something wrong with it, then we can ask what is wrong, and we can wonder why musicians that we respect very well in other circumstances even do that stuff. I don't think the audience is to blame for bad music. I think that musicians who think that because they can play in one genre they can compose and play in another, are to blame for this kind of bad music.

It occurs to stress that this is not in the context of school kids having fun with music, or even that of pop musicians, but it is in the context of serious and accomplished professional, classical musicians. It is a hard line, I know, but my line is that if they can't do what some of the names that have been mentioned can do, they should leave well alone. Don't people think that if some top western string quartet suddenly decided that Mozart needed a drum kit that they would be laughed at and scorned? Mozart does not need a drum kit, and neither does Tiagaraja.

It's fine to like English Note! ;) But it is a mere imitation of English (or, more likely, Irish) folk music. Perhaps even I don't go quite as far as Dr John Mar, who once told me, "It has no musical merit whatsoever!" It's amusing, but not that amusing. Suryaprakash does a good job with it. It is better than some of the more recent fusion compositions I have heard.

sureshvv
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by sureshvv »

Nick H wrote: , and, when we see a certain kind of performance, particularly if sufficient number find something wrong with it, then we can ask what is wrong
Is this irrespective of the number of people who find the music enjoyable? Then I suspect that the reason is more accurately attributed to "musical intolerance". Which is fine, but should be practiced strictly in private :-)

Nick H
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by Nick H »

But we don't practice musical tolerance only in private!

arasi
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by arasi »

Suresh,

மல்லிகைப் பூ, சரிகைப் புடவை
கல்லியாணி பாடிடுமா கச்சிதமாய்?

நானும் நினைத்தேன், ஆனாலும் கேட்டேன்
தேனும், தெவிட்டாத இன்பமும் அதிலில்லை

திரும்பத் திரும்ப' ரௌண்ட்வரும் ட்ரைட்--
விரும்பிக் கேட்க எண்ணினாலும் இயலவில்லை :)

Nick and others,

malligai strands, jari sAri
*kal(li)yANi, how would it sound?

I too wondered, still listened
Neither nectar not joy it seemed

The turn table of trite to me
Willing I was, but turned it off...

* representing any classical rAgA

cacm
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by cacm »

GOOD POETRY ARASI! I think you can compose a few more gems in carnatic music in the time spent in semi-ignorant forums...VKV :ymapplause:

arunk
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by arunk »

Not to belabor the point, but to me, almost many such things seem in clearer light if I simply look at our tastes in food. We may not like a particular dish, a particular preparation of a dish, or even an entire cuisine. For the first two, some of us cannot explain the reason, nor do we have to (i just don't like it), but some try to by finding faults in dish (too much salt, too much spice, not enough spice, it has that ingredient that I didn't like, that ingredient was overpowering. Same for entire cuisine - but the reasons usually are again personal bias related. But would it be rare to genuinely But blame on an entire cuisine or most chefs/cooks of a cuisine as inherently sub-par (yes, I have heard this even with cuisines :-) - but those arent exactly valid - generally a broad generalization based on a strong preference express crudely).


On the flip-side (?), I have found many a western audience really not warm up to carnatic vocal singing (they hate it and find it downright odd - just wont say it as such - this is even with "familiar" scales). This was even if you say offer a Sikkil+Anil-Srinivas type of thing - i..e where the piano backdrop you would think would put them in a comfort zone. It (carnatic vocal singing) is just not their "cup of tea" so to speak. I think a huge part may be that they are not used to a singing voice use the techniques we use. Thus an instrumental rendition of same/similar tune may be more - palatable.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 25 Sep 2014, 21:08, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by arasi »

Thank you, VKV!

Cloud nine is not ours to occupy forever :(
Even the greats agree--so real life,
Terrestrial 'to do' things often beckon--
To make light of it, light verse is born :)

arasi
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by arasi »

Arun,
About canatic vocal, yes, if CM requires cultivation of a taste for it, the prime candidate to face it is vocal. Ravi Sankar didn't have to deal with that. Exotic Indian music, it was called and it was easy on their ears. Instantly pleasant, for them to take to it. Yet, once the music starts sounding familiar, vocal seems to appeal to musically minded people in the west. Understand the words or not, lyrics suddenly give another dimension to the human voice?

We have experienced the long-running 'tyranny of lyrics' thread some years ago! Even those who speak the language and understand the words have agreed on it, which doesn't support my view at all! Yet, why is it that vocal concerts draw more crowds? I wonder...

arunk
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by arunk »

For a non-Indian (generic - but of course not all) audience - it has nothing to do with words and not following language. The vocal techniques with gamakas are too much of a jump for these specific people to get used to. So what you and I cherish is the exact thing they do not care for :-) !

Arun

sureshvv
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by sureshvv »

arunk wrote:For a non-Indian (generic - but of course not all) audience - it has nothing to do with words and not following language. The vocal techniques with gamakas are too much of a jump for these specific people to get used to. So what you and I cherish is the exact thing they do not care for :-) !

Not just non-Indian. A story narrated by the Late S.Rajam goes that a downright irritated Pandit Nehru and his retinue walked out of a carnatic concert finding it utterly unmusical. I think this was when Ariyakudi traveled to Delhi for his Padmasri award (I may be mis-remembering the artiste and the award).

sureshvv
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by sureshvv »

Nick H wrote: But we don't practice musical tolerance only in private!
Yes. Just like we may hang out in our underwear at home but wear decent clothes when we step out :-)
Last edited by sureshvv on 25 Sep 2014, 23:02, edited 1 time in total.

Nick H
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by Nick H »

arunk wrote:Not to belabor the point, but to me, almost many such things seem in clearer light if I simply look at our tastes in food. We may not like a particular dish, a particular preparation of a dish, or even an entire cuisine. For the first two, some of us cannot explain the reason, nor do we have to (i just don't like it), but some try to by finding faults in dish (too much salt, too much spice, not enough spice, it has that ingredient that I didn't like, that ingredient was overpowering. Same for entire cuisine - but the reasons usually are again personal bias related. But would it be rare to genuinely But blame on an entire cuisine or most chefs/cooks of a cuisine as inherently sub-par (yes, I have heard this even with cuisines :-) - but those arent exactly valid - generally a broad generalization based on a strong preference express crudely).


On the flip-side (?), I have found many a western audience really not warm up to carnatic vocal singing (they hate it and find it downright odd - just wont say it as such - this is even with "familiar" scales). This was even if you say offer a Sikkil+Anil-Srinivas type of thing - i..e where the piano backdrop you would think would put them in a comfort zone. It (carnatic vocal singing) is just not their "cup of tea" so to speak. I think a huge part may be that they are not used to a singing voice use the techniques we use. Thus an instrumental rendition of same/similar tune may be more - palatable.

Arun
But you are forgetting all about plain bad cooking The source/gravy/etc is lumpy, the things that are supposed to be lightly fried are dripping in oil, ingredients are boiled to extermination, dry items are burnt. Oh! But someone likes their food like that? Well, maybe, just possibly, but it still doesn't make it anything but bad cooking.

Maybe the problem here is that you are lumping all the fusion into one? I'm really talking about the bad fusion, and what makes it bad has been amply discussed.

arunk
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by arunk »

Yes there is good to bad of course in anything. I am just saying everything that is clubbed as bad may not be necessarily bad. To be blunt, I am not sure cm rasikas can be objective when it comes to any fusion with carnatic elements - i am not sure we have the right perspective. There may be exceptions of course.

Arun

arunk
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by arunk »

That includes me as well :-). There are fusion things I have tried to listen and I have stopped after 15 seconds because of "drums" being completely un-palatable to me from relation to the the melody standpoint.

Arun

arunk
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by arunk »

Then there is Madras String Quartet - some of whose songs like e.g. mokshamu galada I like. In that the main melody is carnatic style, and cell/violins provide an understated backdrop in a way to me enhances the sombre mood of the song. So to me that one is a good fusion.

But do you know what my western classical music expert friend (he composes as well) about the rendition: It is kinda boring after 2 mins. It doesnt "go anywhere" :-)

Arun

arasi
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by arasi »

Arun,
That's it. Those two minutes, if they swell into two hours in small doses, a bit more as days go by, may make a difference. May be, your very musical friend simply doesn't have the taste buds for akkAra vaDisil (a dessert) :)

Lyrics, oddly enough may not be a hindrance at all to some who neither know the language nor have a great love for poetry. If the words are powerful enough, and the bhAvA is brought out by the singer, lyrics, a non-factor as it were in their case, might really help, who knows?

I have noticed that even kannaDigAs who don't understand any of tamizh are quite happy with BhArathi's songs for instance, just as we are with PD. Powerful words, when well emoted by competent singers can have that effect. Italian or german opera, even without the translation running, do not stop us from our appreciating the music, if we are so inclined...

Nick H
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by Nick H »

arunk wrote:I am not sure cm rasikas can be objective when it comes to any fusion with carnatic elements
And you know what they say about converts: we make great fundamentalists! And I am aware of my tendency towards the puritanical. But I have also mentioned some other music that I have found amazing, because of that factor of creating something new, rather than sticking incompatible components together. I don't like my carnatic music messed with, but I would be the last to tell any carnatic music that they can't play anything else!
There are fusion things I have tried to listen and I have stopped after 15 seconds because of "drums" being completely un-palatable to me from relation to the the melody standpoint.
It works the other way, too. You can hear carnatic percussionists playing their set pieces in their set ways along with some combination of western musicians. Again it is sticking plaster: it doesn't actually fit. Compare the well-known recording of PSP playing with jazz musicians, which is just breathtaking.
But do you know what my western classical music expert friend (he composes as well) about the rendition: It is kinda boring after 2 mins. It doesnt "go anywhere"
Many of my western friends simply cannot listen to Indian music, however adventurous they may be with other musics. If they really don't like it, then what they have to say is not really relevant. But what does your friend say about non-fusion carnatic? It may be lyrically repetitious, but I don't see how it could be said that the melody "does not go anywhere." Would be interested to know.
arasi wrote:Lyrics, oddly enough may not be a hindrance at all to some who neither know the language nor have a great love for poetry. If the words are powerful enough, and the bhAvA is brought out by the singer, lyrics, a non-factor as it were in their case, might really help, who knows?
Many opera lovers may not be fluent in French, Italian, German! edit: Oh! You said that already :)

arasi
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by arasi »

Though familiar with tamizh and a bit of malayALam, you are not with other languages. Yet, you love to listen to Vedavalli's music and other vocal concerts...

munirao2001
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by munirao2001 »

arasi Sir,
Sound containing word is capable of expressing the meaning, very clearly. Artist expresses what is not possible with words to withheld, through the medium of art-music, by envisioning beyond the vision of a poet. The form of non-verbal expressions is beyond words. Artist, in creation, not present earlier, one kind of light not seen up to that moment and enlightens. Enhanced emotions spread, seemingly unexpressed, not attainable, impossible, new frontier, comes in to being. Music is the poetry of sound. Music is independent of language of sound. Without the knowledge of language, its unique meaning in literature is impossible. But, music stands out crossing the boundary. Language in music is called as dhatu-maatu. Main purpose of word is building dhatu, parts of the body of a composition and its togetherness. Movement for this created dhatu is limited, unlike melody. Flow in sounds, if it is jumping of words because of words in the composition, sound is breeze, when the mind is merged in the breeze of music with spell of word as high tide, aesthetics experience achieves completeness.
munirao2001

SrinathK
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by SrinathK »

@ NickH
Many of my western friends simply cannot listen to Indian music, however adventurous they may be with other musics. If they really don't like it, then what they have to say is not really relevant. But what does your friend say about non-fusion carnatic? It may be lyrically repetitious, but I don't see how it could be said that the melody "does not go anywhere." Would be interested to know.
While tastes are personal and some tastes are too personal to adjust, WCM has an eltist image and one factor is very complex compositions. But they make up for this with their superb sound and other factors. One thing here is that for a long time, the majority of CM (except the top of the pyramid) has ignored this one thing called 'tone', which is the first thing that takes over you when you listen to a WM or HM recording or even an all time classic film song. I know a not insignificant number of cases who turned away from CM as their first experience was ruined by a very poor quality or "apaswaram filled" recording. Having a mridangam on board gives the artiste a lot more opportunity to adjust the "energy level" of the performance. Then there is the tala, which because of it's typically short cycle length, keeps the melodic line constrained to a reasonably small length, but your friend might have wanted more space to explore before recapitulating (this one is really doubtful). But some of these are real excuses I've heard from many friends.

But none of this should be the prime factor with your friend. I just think he hasn't listened enough at all to gain any measure of familiarity with CM (and sadly there are few who go beyond the 1st 10 seconds). Familiarity is the very first step. Only then we can even talk about even superficial appreciation of an art. Having developed the ears to listen to WCM, I found chords strange to my ears at first, but a few days of listening and knowing the most popular compositions helped. Now I am an up and coming WCM rasika as well. In my experience, knowing Carnatic Music makes it very easy to appreciate and adapt my ears to a huge variety of genres (but I am not sure it's true the other way round).

The degree of difficulty and the complexity (and length) of a concerto for e.g. is far greater than a krithi once the gamakas are mastered. In CM it's about ragas, neravals, a large repertory, tanam (sadly going beyond the usual cliched phrases nowadays), talas, pallavis and the like. Very few compositions in CM are too long or too complex (not that it is impossible, but then no one would be able to understand them). Manodharma is 3 quarters of it.

There's also the other dimension of many CM songs following a "rondo" melodic format similar to A B A CB A where each letter denotes a different series of phrases (A is the typical pallavi, B the anupallavi, C the 1st half of the charanam, B is the 2nd part of it which differs only lyrically from the anupallavi). Dikshitar is an exception to the rule. The lighter numbers follow a pattern like A B A B A with each charanam returning to the pallavi and differentiated only by lyrics. This is not to say that concertos don't recapitulate (they do quite a LOT) or explore several variations of an opening theme (while we explore several lyrical variations of a charanam), but there are other formats. Each movement can be in a completely different style or key or tempo. They start somewhere and end elsewhere, sometimes on another continent and perhaps your friend prefers that sort of non-repetitive format. Or he wanted something more energetic. Maybe you should show him LGJ's incredible Dhaarini Telusukonti recording.

And regarding lyrics, I went almost 20 years listening to CM and just barely managing to understand the Tamil songs (and Sanskrit) and for all purposes I would be an illiterate in all the languages but my mother tongue, but I still liked it. I guess being familiar with many compositions compensated amply for the linguistic deficiency. Now I have sahityam.net to help me immensely in understanding quite a few of them, but still, one can be quite a rasika despite the illiteracy. For the record, I have zero knowledge of sight reading, but can appreciate WCM too. But I got there over time...not in 2 minutes.

But still, listening for extended durations of very heavy opera style vibrato remains out of reach...alas!

Coming back on track, one reason why fusion often strays into flash and fizz -- one popular excuse I hear regarding CM (or HM and especially WCM) is that they are all "too sentimental". The average non-rasika listener (the majority) really doesn't seem to want depth, the average listener prefers what fires up their nerves (something that can be done with just noise and bass). And then there are those who don't like any music...

arunk
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by arunk »

> WCM has an eltist image
Rings a bell. Something about a pot and a kettle ;-) ;-) ?

Arun

arunk
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by arunk »

Nick

> Compare the well-known recording of PSP playing with jazz musicians, which is just breathtaking.

I have heard this. It is awesome - but ultimately it is more of a showcase than a true blend.

I have always surmised that one reason why pure Indian classical doesnt mix with (non-classical) western could be in the nature of the rhythm "section". They have more or less steady rhythm which could be made of a drum pattern, a bass riff, or string section. In ours there is no such thing - even with saravalaghu. I have seen fusion concerts where a jazz bassist tried his best to do some accompaniment (albeit for manodharma section I think) and really could not find a "spot to squeeze in" :-). You also see with African layered drumming - very complex effect overall, but there is a base steady pattern I think, which allows different players to overlay their own steady beat on top. In ours the percussion is highlu individualistic.

But in film songs the beat (in many cases) is constant and with the melody being still relatable to classical roots. As vk said, this is very good fusion.

I have also found certain jazzz renditions "un-palatable" in the same vein as the fusion pieces where the parts "dont mix". I find the melody meander/veer-off (again to my ears) mostly in terms of fitting the mood of background rhythm. Again, my preconceived biases get in the way.

With regards to my friend: He doesnt find pure classical appealing either (One other friend listened to an alapana and said "it sounds like someone is practicing" :- )). At best they find it "interesting" - as finding a new/exotic thing but with no meaningful value inherently in the melody. I am quite certain they find vocal gamakas to be downright weird - like suresh said, even many Indians feel that.

The melody also does NOT make any emotional impact - mainly because for that you have to cross the bridge. That is what i am saying for cm rasikas w.r.t appreciation of other music. I am not convinced many of us can cross that bridge.

Arasi - you are presuming it grabbed his attention for 2 minutes :-).

Arun

arasi
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by arasi »

Ah, Arun!
Then, I have to rethink it all a bit: open-mindedness, love for music and exposure alone don't help, it seems.

You have an idea about me and my taste in music--my not acting my age often (how I wish!), among other things, in my preferences in music. So, when my friends say they like my music (not all of them are familiar with indian music, let alone CM), I have to assume they are merely being polite!

And you know me enough not to call me sir :)

Mahavishnu is very busy at the moment, I think, to actively participate in this discussion.

arunk
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by arunk »

arasi - "Sir" was not from me :-) - it was (mistakenly I am sure) by Sri munirao

open-mindedness is a catalyst - but lets you try something new. That is only the beginning. In many of these cases, I would not have also thought these people were really open to it (except to take a listen). They were still evaluating it based on what they know and like.

Arun

arasi
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by arasi »

Arun,
Talk about a misleading statement (on my part!). What I meant was: of course you know me well enough to know that I'm Dame, and not Sir. Okay, a plain old lady and not a sAr :)

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Srinath, interesting analysis of how CM comes across to others.

This following piece belongs in this thread since it illustrates many of those aspects. Srini Pichumani's incredible find which he had posted in another thread which we had discussed a few months back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es2cv1NrLN4 ( John Foulds, Bhavanutha )
http://mio.to/album/11-Classical_Carnat ... _-_Violin/ ( MSG, Bhavanutha )

Sowkyams of two different kinds, both incredibly awesome in what they are inherently good at.

mahavishnu
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by mahavishnu »

arasi wrote:
Mahavishnu is very busy at the moment, I think, to actively participate in this discussion.
Arasi, thanks for thinking of me. Yes, I am in the middle of a grant proposal and it is eating all my time :(
This is a very interesting thread and I have a lot to say on this topic... hopefully, it will still be going on when I am back in a week or two.

I am also so distraught by the passing of U Srinivas; his music is all I am listening to these days as I work, some of it is even "fusion" (for e.g his recording with Michael Brook).

Some solace :(

seema
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Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by seema »

To be absolutely frank, and I've stated multiple times before, I have absolutely no issues with Anil Srinivasan and the piano, as he makes it very clear at most of his events that he is neither trying to be a Carnatic musician in the strictest sense, nor is he substituting the standard rendition pattern. In fact, I was quite happy with the Sanjeev and Anil collaboration, and indeed, Sanjeev seems to have loved it too - I saw his posting of it on his FB page with a video attached saying how much he enjoyed it, and it seems to have found favour with a wide variety of listeners, including some so-called purists. I enjoyed Anil's recent collaboration with Rakesh Chaurasia, which I think came even closer to the ideal of a concert for me - serene, tasteful and absolutely engaging. But that's just me. I have enjoyed Anil's work a lot, and I have said that before on this forum.

Having said that, there are aspects of some of these concerts that don't appeal to me - but I don't dismiss the concerts in toto. I believe that in the rapid evolution and transformation of musical rendition styles, some changes are bound to occur - and it is important to witness the process and try to understand it first, rather than revert to hidebound ideas of inherited taste.

My two-cents' worth.

Nick H
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by Nick H »

I heard this yesterday. It counts, for me, as not being fusion but being a different kind of music that just happens to include some Indian instruments. I enjoyed it very much.

arasi
Posts: 16877
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: Fusion Sensibilities - who decides?

Post by arasi »

Nick,
I recall your appreciating the way Subramanya Bharathi gets carried away with the fisherman's music on the beach, explaining the beauty of it to the children who were unfamiliar with such music. But for the vocals, this music brings it all back to us :)

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