Is any sequential order necessary at all for a Carnatic music concert?
In what way a structured format has helped or hindered the development and propagation of Carnatic music?while trying to answer this,let us consider a " silly". Questionnaire. Of course this is NOT MEANT to be answered.It is only to focus our line of thought:
-Is there an established format for a bharathanatyam recital ?
-why does Music Academy print the contents of most of its concerts?
-why is there an agenda for any general body meeting?
-why do restaurants display the" to-day's menu " board outside?
-why do temple goers follow a particular route in the prakaram?
-why should cricket batsmen be labelled as one down, two down etc..
- why do all cm musicians wear dhothy( even abroad where it is ice cold ) during concerts and squat on the stage?
Discussion:Is any sequential order necessary at all for CM
-
Ponbhairavi
- Posts: 1075
- Joined: 13 Feb 2007, 08:05
-
vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Re: Discussion:Is any sequential order necessary at all for
Good set of points for general discussion actually. But recall the unmentioned musician said what he offers is not a concert 
Anyway, let us first discuss your points directly, in fact answering them, though you said not to. This is just to categorize them as to what purpose they serve. That can be useful in applying that to CM
Even with this simple exercise, we have the following
1) Being informed about what to expect
2) Habit formation
3) Labeling and vocabulary
4) Affordance, familiarity and creation of comfort zone
Now the question is, are these necessary for a CM concert for it to be a fulfilling experience. Such things can not be answered unless we have clear ideas on what the goals of a CM concert are. Goals, mission statement, 'what job does it do' etc are all different characterizations of the same thing. We can then see if the above things work towards or against those goals ( or neutral ).
There may not be a uniform set of goals among the audience. But for illustrative purposes let us consider two. ( there are of course numerous others )
Sowkyam, peacefulness and enjoyment: I can see 1, 2 and 4 can positively contribute towards this
Creativity,imagination and new experiences: I can see 1, 2, 3 and 4 can act against it. Unbridled creativity and creating new experiences require, by definition, not to worry about or shackled by current ways of doing things.
Of course, these two criteria themselves are not mutually exclusive. One can find sowkyam in experiencing new things
Anyway, let us first discuss your points directly, in fact answering them, though you said not to. This is just to categorize them as to what purpose they serve. That can be useful in applying that to CM
These three belong to "being informed ahead of time" even if there are some minor changes. But you can make your decision based on the above info ahead of the event. So they serve that purpose among others.-why does Music Academy print the contents of most of its concerts?
-why is there an agenda for any general body meeting?
-why do restaurants display the" to-day's menu " board outside?
Other than reasons dictated by religion, it serves the purpose of 'getting into a habit of things so you do not have to consciously think about the routine'. There are two ways to do this in general. Someone else can give you the step by step instructions that you follow without having to think consciously about the sequence, or do something repeatedly so it becomes a habit. In both cases, the common theme is to make it part of your 'muscle memory' so the brain is freed from spending its resources managing them. But of course on the religious side, people figure that maximum results come only when they do it in that order or some times out of fear that if they change it something negative will happen.-why do temple goers follow a particular route in the prakaram?
Labeling to indicate specialization, so there is a common vocabulary-why should cricket batsmen be labelled as one down, two down etc..
Affordance ( the looks say something to the audience due to cultural conditioning ) and Familiarity that puts the audience in a comfort zone.why do all cm musicians wear dhothy( even abroad where it is ice cold ) during concerts and squat on the stage?
Even with this simple exercise, we have the following
1) Being informed about what to expect
2) Habit formation
3) Labeling and vocabulary
4) Affordance, familiarity and creation of comfort zone
Now the question is, are these necessary for a CM concert for it to be a fulfilling experience. Such things can not be answered unless we have clear ideas on what the goals of a CM concert are. Goals, mission statement, 'what job does it do' etc are all different characterizations of the same thing. We can then see if the above things work towards or against those goals ( or neutral ).
There may not be a uniform set of goals among the audience. But for illustrative purposes let us consider two. ( there are of course numerous others )
Sowkyam, peacefulness and enjoyment: I can see 1, 2 and 4 can positively contribute towards this
Creativity,imagination and new experiences: I can see 1, 2, 3 and 4 can act against it. Unbridled creativity and creating new experiences require, by definition, not to worry about or shackled by current ways of doing things.
Of course, these two criteria themselves are not mutually exclusive. One can find sowkyam in experiencing new things
-
arasi
- Posts: 16873
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Re: Discussion:Is any sequential order necessary at all for
Ponbhairavi,
A fun set of questions!
Your first question is so much on the minds of rasikAs these days that we have plenty of threads on the subject
My guess: Academy's tradition started because a very organized top honcho wanted everything to be clearly stated--which grew into (at times) their not wanting the musicians to enter their hallowed hall with uncertainty--which in turn made the performers scratch their heads way ahead of time to plan on what to sing?? Which grew into the big performers saying, no, leave the page blank, as we want (last minute) inspiration to lead us? Which made other musicians long for the day when they could become as big as them? See, that's where tradition leads with an iron hand. That's why you hear some grown ups warning a mere child in panic, not to go the other way round the sanctum!
From some listeners' point of view, the program book is so vital--it tells them the rAgA name etc about a song (which they do not have to ask around). Those who are not impressed with the concert find it to be a vital prop--a newspaper is a no no, but the program book is sacred in such a situation. You can flick through it a hundred times
As for artistes wearing dhotis in freezing weather for a concert, I'm not so sure if some of them wear long johns (warm long under garments) to ward off the cold. Even western vocalists have a silk scarf around their necks as they are out. What really I can't understand is, why don't they wear white socks as the HM musicians do?
Kokilam,
Interesting analysis! This new word (at least for me) affordance is aspiring to be as special as aesthetics??
A fun set of questions!
Your first question is so much on the minds of rasikAs these days that we have plenty of threads on the subject
My guess: Academy's tradition started because a very organized top honcho wanted everything to be clearly stated--which grew into (at times) their not wanting the musicians to enter their hallowed hall with uncertainty--which in turn made the performers scratch their heads way ahead of time to plan on what to sing?? Which grew into the big performers saying, no, leave the page blank, as we want (last minute) inspiration to lead us? Which made other musicians long for the day when they could become as big as them? See, that's where tradition leads with an iron hand. That's why you hear some grown ups warning a mere child in panic, not to go the other way round the sanctum!
From some listeners' point of view, the program book is so vital--it tells them the rAgA name etc about a song (which they do not have to ask around). Those who are not impressed with the concert find it to be a vital prop--a newspaper is a no no, but the program book is sacred in such a situation. You can flick through it a hundred times
As for artistes wearing dhotis in freezing weather for a concert, I'm not so sure if some of them wear long johns (warm long under garments) to ward off the cold. Even western vocalists have a silk scarf around their necks as they are out. What really I can't understand is, why don't they wear white socks as the HM musicians do?
Kokilam,
Interesting analysis! This new word (at least for me) affordance is aspiring to be as special as aesthetics??
-
Ponbhairavi
- Posts: 1075
- Joined: 13 Feb 2007, 08:05
Re: Discussion:Is any sequential order necessary at all for
Music has 3 facets:the art,the artist,and the audience.
No question about the excellence of the art
the artist spends hours and hours for years and years to master the art.Once having mastered the art,,no one can rest content with singing in his house for himself.He is in search of opportunities platforms, in other words audience. Why? Money, award ? yes plus also and particularly recognition.In modern society,in addition to mannasai ,ponnasai and pennasai, there is a pugazhasai.
audience: what is the composition of the audience?Of course it depends upon the place. But leaving the execeptionally elitist M A and some U S centres, generally the audience consists of 10 per cent very expert people who follow the artist in every feat and failing, 30 per cent “ knowledgeable” who can distinguish a pambu from a podalangai and the rest 60 per cent general music lovers for whom it is a cultured entertainment.
The existing format of a concert consists of 2 halves.The ffirst half which is the better half full of heavy items for the connoisseurs and the second half for the general public separated by a thani. the logic of this format is a voice warming up with a varnam then rendering technically demanding items at the start when everything is fresh and the audience attention keen.
Those accusing the format of being “rigid” have not so far added anything new Proscribed
by this.Those accusing this of not allowing freedom of creativity have never been left short of time for free flight of their imagination.They have been able to render all the usual 13 or 14 numbers. In fact veterans of the old system have rendered raga alapana for one hour compressing suitably the other items and without compromising any.This proves the elasticity of the system. The only change that has been brought is the random jumbling of items from part one and part two.Whereas the logic of the old system is performance facilitation,( can you have a korathi dance first and pada varnam as the last item in a bharatha natya recital ? ), no reason has been adduced for the change except perhaps a surprise. But this surprise, as an unpredictable rain in a weather forecast is only a nuisance
The artists are bound to stay for the full duration of the concert. the rasikas are not.They can go and come when they want.In the old system those who are not interested in ta ra la la or nam thom dha nam thom wwould come in the second half.On those who want to hear eppovaruvaro ,bharathi , or muddugare yashoda it is an ordeal to inflict Sakani raja margamu Knowing in advance what to expect and when to expect is therefore useful.In a pondy sabha I have seen groups of foreigners just come at 7 45 and leave immediately after the mridangam thani.,
what is the logic behind singing anything at anytime.? Kunnakudy( nowadays forgotten) used to announce in his temple concerts (attended by about 10 thousand people most of them standing )at a restless audience in the beginning that the first hour of his concert is for himself( pure C M )second hour for the temple and the last two hours for the audience (listeners request ) Many in the audience would leave and come back after dinner.
It shouild also be noted that the old format had been conducive to the preservation and transmission of javali,padam thillana which belong to another branch of art where they did not have in the past numerically as many chances.
Consideration for the audience should be paramount.It should not be taken for granted. Thiruvalluvar warns us that huge wealth and large hall crowds may dissipate and vanish in no time.
No question about the excellence of the art
the artist spends hours and hours for years and years to master the art.Once having mastered the art,,no one can rest content with singing in his house for himself.He is in search of opportunities platforms, in other words audience. Why? Money, award ? yes plus also and particularly recognition.In modern society,in addition to mannasai ,ponnasai and pennasai, there is a pugazhasai.
audience: what is the composition of the audience?Of course it depends upon the place. But leaving the execeptionally elitist M A and some U S centres, generally the audience consists of 10 per cent very expert people who follow the artist in every feat and failing, 30 per cent “ knowledgeable” who can distinguish a pambu from a podalangai and the rest 60 per cent general music lovers for whom it is a cultured entertainment.
The existing format of a concert consists of 2 halves.The ffirst half which is the better half full of heavy items for the connoisseurs and the second half for the general public separated by a thani. the logic of this format is a voice warming up with a varnam then rendering technically demanding items at the start when everything is fresh and the audience attention keen.
Those accusing the format of being “rigid” have not so far added anything new Proscribed
by this.Those accusing this of not allowing freedom of creativity have never been left short of time for free flight of their imagination.They have been able to render all the usual 13 or 14 numbers. In fact veterans of the old system have rendered raga alapana for one hour compressing suitably the other items and without compromising any.This proves the elasticity of the system. The only change that has been brought is the random jumbling of items from part one and part two.Whereas the logic of the old system is performance facilitation,( can you have a korathi dance first and pada varnam as the last item in a bharatha natya recital ? ), no reason has been adduced for the change except perhaps a surprise. But this surprise, as an unpredictable rain in a weather forecast is only a nuisance
The artists are bound to stay for the full duration of the concert. the rasikas are not.They can go and come when they want.In the old system those who are not interested in ta ra la la or nam thom dha nam thom wwould come in the second half.On those who want to hear eppovaruvaro ,bharathi , or muddugare yashoda it is an ordeal to inflict Sakani raja margamu Knowing in advance what to expect and when to expect is therefore useful.In a pondy sabha I have seen groups of foreigners just come at 7 45 and leave immediately after the mridangam thani.,
what is the logic behind singing anything at anytime.? Kunnakudy( nowadays forgotten) used to announce in his temple concerts (attended by about 10 thousand people most of them standing )at a restless audience in the beginning that the first hour of his concert is for himself( pure C M )second hour for the temple and the last two hours for the audience (listeners request ) Many in the audience would leave and come back after dinner.
It shouild also be noted that the old format had been conducive to the preservation and transmission of javali,padam thillana which belong to another branch of art where they did not have in the past numerically as many chances.
Consideration for the audience should be paramount.It should not be taken for granted. Thiruvalluvar warns us that huge wealth and large hall crowds may dissipate and vanish in no time.
-
Ponbhairavi
- Posts: 1075
- Joined: 13 Feb 2007, 08:05
Re: Discussion:Is any sequential order necessary at all for
கூத்தாட்ட அவை குழாத்தற்றே பெருஞ் செல்வம்
போக்கும் அஹது விளிந்தற்றே
போக்கும் அஹது விளிந்தற்றே
-
Rsachi
- Posts: 5039
- Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54
Re: Discussion:Is any sequential order necessary at all for
Hamlet (Polonius marvels at Hamlet's wisdom, although it appears on the surface as madness. He says there is a method in Hamlet's madness!)
QUOTE
POLONIUS
(aside) Though this be madness, yet there is method in ’t.—(to HAMLET) Will you walk out of the air, my lord?
HAMLET
Into my grave.
POLONIUS
Indeed, that is out of the air. (aside) How pregnant sometimes his replies are. A happiness that often madness hits on, which reason and sanity could not so prosperously be delivered of.
UNQUOTE
Hence there is now an expression, "method to one's madness". Cambridge Dictionary defines it as follows:
have method in your madness
(US usually have a method to your madness)
› to have a good reason for what you are doing, although you seem to be behaving strangely
(from the Cambridge Advanced Learners Dictionary & Thesaurus © Cambridge University Press)
QUOTE
POLONIUS
(aside) Though this be madness, yet there is method in ’t.—(to HAMLET) Will you walk out of the air, my lord?
HAMLET
Into my grave.
POLONIUS
Indeed, that is out of the air. (aside) How pregnant sometimes his replies are. A happiness that often madness hits on, which reason and sanity could not so prosperously be delivered of.
UNQUOTE
Hence there is now an expression, "method to one's madness". Cambridge Dictionary defines it as follows:
have method in your madness
(US usually have a method to your madness)
› to have a good reason for what you are doing, although you seem to be behaving strangely
(from the Cambridge Advanced Learners Dictionary & Thesaurus © Cambridge University Press)
Last edited by Rsachi on 30 Oct 2014, 20:56, edited 1 time in total.
-
vgovindan
- Posts: 1950
- Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01
Re: Discussion:Is any sequential order necessary at all for
There were, and I am positive there still are, and there will continue to be, some 'eccentrics' who do not care for any of these..Once having mastered the art,,no one can rest content with singing in his house for himself.He is in search of opportunities platforms, in other words audience. Why? Money, award ? yes plus also and particularly recognition.In modern society,in addition to mannasai ,ponnasai and pennasai, there is a pugazhasai.
Please listen to Smt Vedavalli about Mali (probably this has already been cited elsewhere)
http://youtu.be/zXncYzuqYVU
-
VK RAMAN
- Posts: 5009
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:29
Re: Discussion:Is any sequential order necessary at all for
When someone is called crazy, you are giving that person licence to do whatever and however he/she wants
-
rshankar
- Posts: 13754
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26
Re: Discussion:Is any sequential order necessary at all for
There is - it is called the mArgam - a path to salvation, laid down by the tanjavUr quartette. I think this format is followed (more or less) for the most part. The mArgam is ordered in the following format (just my take on this - Umesh/Parimal etc.,...feel free to comment/edit):Ponbhairavi wrote:-Is there an established format for a bharathanatyam recital ?
1) alArippu - the dancer warms up her/his limbs - angas and upangas, while simultaneously relaxing her/his mind, and getting the ears and mind focused on the guru/naTTuvanAr's cymbals as they are put through their paces in 3 speeds
Smt. Balasaraswati's interpretation: Entering the gOpura vAsal - temple entrance
Modern variations: Replaced with a pushpAnjali OR a kauttuvam OR a stuti OR alArippu with non-traditional approaches (mayUra alArippu, alArippu fashioned like the temple architecture, non-traditional aDavu patterns etc.) - or a fusion of a kauttuvam and alArippu
2) jatisvaram - continues with the theme of nRtta - starts with a small jati, followed by svara passages arranged in the form of a pallavi, anupallavi, and caraNam(s) - more complicated footwork thatn in the alArippu, rhythmic complexities are usually introduced here (with kArvais)*
Smt. Balasaraswati's interpretation: Traversing the ardhamaNTapam
Modern variations: Dropped from the repertoire
* rhythmic complexities in alArippu can also be introduced by starting in usi (half a beat behind the tALam)
3) Sabdam - first introduction of sAhitya in the lyrics, and rudimentary sancAris in the choreography
Smt. Balasaraswati's interpretation: Entering the garbha-gRham (sanctum sanctorum)
Modern variations: Replaced with a kIrtanam
4) varNam - centerpiece of the recital - showcases jatis - starting with the first one - the trikAla jati (jati in three speeds) - ample scope for elaborate sancAris - test the dancer's stamina
Smt. Balasaraswati's interpretation: The ecstasy of beholding the lord
Modern variations: Called by any other name, the (pada)varNam is still the centerpiece of all bharatanATyam recitals
5) padam and jAvaLi - mainly showcase the abhinaya prowess of the dancer
Smt. Balasaraswati's interpretation: After the initial ecstatic reaction on beholding the lord, through the varNam, these pieces represent the quiet communion between the disciple and the lord
Modern variations: Traditional padams/jAvaLis are being performed less and less, and are replaced by kRtis - called bhakti padams - I have no quarrel with this, as it requires an extraordinary amount of sensitivity to portray the sentiments expressed in many of the traditional padams in a subtle way
6) tillAnA - a beautiful piece, with delightful choreography and high energy (living up to the supposed origin of the word - i.e., dil behlAnA) that typically concludes the show
Smt. Balasaraswati's interpretation: The brilliant dIpArAdhana that concludes the visit to a temple
Modern variations: Typically seen in all recitals - some of the modern tillAnAs with their savAl javAb segments etc., can last for 10+ minutes
-
arasi
- Posts: 16873
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Re: Discussion:Is any sequential order necessary at all for
Ravi,
Thanks for today's fine lesson
Thanks for today's fine lesson
-
harimau
- Posts: 1819
- Joined: 06 Feb 2007, 21:43
Re: Discussion:Is any sequential order necessary at all for
You seem to have forgotten what Ponbhairavi said. [-x It was more like a rhetorical question on his part, containing its own answer.rshankar wrote:There is - it is called the mArgam - a path to salvation, laid down by the tanjavUr quartette. I think this format is followed (more or less) for the most part. The mArgam is ordered in the following format
1) alArippu
2) jatisvaram
3) Sabdam
4) varNam
5) padam and jAvaLi
6) tillAnA
Ponbhairavi wrote:
Questionnaire. Of course this is NOT MEANT to be answered. It is only to focus our line of thought:
Is there an established format for a bharathanatyam recital?
-
vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Re: Discussion:Is any sequential order necessary at all for
A non-indian colleague saw a couple of CM live concerts videos on youtube. While he likes the music a lot, his big complaintWhat really I can't understand is, why don't they wear white socks as the HM musicians do?
is the the bare feet he sees on the concert stage, especially of the violinist and he just can not get over that
That is a thing with him.Until then, I did not even consider that to be anything odd, so I did not even notice. While it still does not bother me much, it is now on my radar because of this guy.
I did not know HM musicians do wear socks.
So CM musicians, wear socks and I guarantee you one extra fan
-
rshankar
- Posts: 13754
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26
Re: Discussion:Is any sequential order necessary at all for
I answered it to point out that while an order exists, it is also being constantly played with - quietly, without much fuss....harimau wrote:Questionnaire. Of course this is NOT MEANT to be answered. It is only to focus our line of thought:
Is there an established format for a bharathanatyam recital?
-
hnbhagavan
- Posts: 1664
- Joined: 21 Jun 2008, 22:06
Re: Discussion:Is any sequential order necessary at all for
The dress code of Carnatic musicians is inherited from earlier years and singing is considered a divine activity.Each song is in praise of one or the other deity.All the composers invoke the blessings of the almighty.Comparison with Hindustani where they wear a slightly different one like Pyjama and socks on the stage.
It is my observation that in temples of South India,the dress code is Dhoti clad in traditional form and forehead will have Vibooty or vaishnava signs.Compare this with temples in North India,where the priest does the pooja wearing shirt.One reason may be due to the cold weather in North,priest dress code got evolved in this way.
It is my observation that in temples of South India,the dress code is Dhoti clad in traditional form and forehead will have Vibooty or vaishnava signs.Compare this with temples in North India,where the priest does the pooja wearing shirt.One reason may be due to the cold weather in North,priest dress code got evolved in this way.
-
ramamantra
- Posts: 281
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 10:32
Re: Discussion:Is any sequential order necessary at all for
You'll get more focus if you ask this question...Ponbhairavi wrote:Is any sequential order necessary at all for a Carnatic music concert?
In what way a structured format has helped or hindered the development and propagation of Carnatic music?while trying to answer this,let us consider a " silly". Questionnaire. Of course this is NOT MEANT to be answered.It is only to focus our line of thought:
-Is there an established format for a bharathanatyam recital ?
- why do all cm musicians wear dhothy( even abroad where it is ice cold ) during concerts and squat on the stage?
- Why our homes begin with verandah or drawing rooms and not bathrooms?
Do they have such structures in the highly creative/experimental West which teaches the whole world to be 'different', I wonder.
-
Nick H
- Posts: 9472
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Re: Discussion:Is any sequential order necessary at all for
I suggest you let your colleague have his hangups. I remember a piece of advice given in a counselling course: "Never adopt the patient's problems!" It's all too easy!vasanthakokilam wrote: A non-indian colleague saw a couple of CM live concerts videos on youtube. While he likes the music a lot, his big complaint
is the the bare feet he sees on the concert stage, especially of the violinist and he just can not get over that
Until then, I did not even consider that to be anything odd, so I did not even notice. While it still does not bother me much, it is now on my radar because of this guy.
I did not know HM musicians do wear socks.
So CM musicians, wear socks and I guarantee you one extra fan
)Intellectually, it is curious and there are interesting questions: we must not let the feet, or even the leg, touch the divine instrument, and yet the legs are used in the support of many of them, and, for the violin, the foot itself is used. I was just passing through a violin class once, and I heard the teacher tell the youngster to remove the sock that the violin was resting on. Is that skin-to-wood touch important to violinists? Probably I'm just missing some things that are obvious to those who grew up in this culture.
-
sridhar_ranga
- Posts: 809
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 11:36
Re: Discussion:Is any sequential order necessary at all for
Some violinists with good stage manners cover their foot with the end of their veshti - I have seen Varadarajan do that.
-
vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Re: Discussion:Is any sequential order necessary at all for
Not exactly what you are thinking but in one of our office buildings, there is a corridor where the bath rooms are and then you enter the main area.ramamantra wrote: - Why our homes begin with verandah or drawing rooms and not bathrooms?
Do they have such structures in the highly creative/experimental West which teaches the whole world to be 'different', I wonder.
Agree that will be odd at a home though things have changed even in India. It is now acceptable to have the bathroom inside the house, even around the corner from the kitchen. So things do change as requirements change even if they happen slowly.-
rshankar
- Posts: 13754
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26
Re: Discussion:Is any sequential order necessary at all for
VK -
Along those lines, if we ever get to design our house, we'd love to have the house open into a mud-room for people to take off their foot-wear, and wash their feet before entering the rest of the house!
Along those lines, if we ever get to design our house, we'd love to have the house open into a mud-room for people to take off their foot-wear, and wash their feet before entering the rest of the house!
-
arasi
- Posts: 16873
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Re: Discussion:Is any sequential order necessary at all for
Ravi,
Especially those big foot, sneaker-made foot prints, right?
Our japenese friends when they lived here in the US had lovely slippers of all sizes lined up near the door for those who could not walk around without shoes! In those years, it was seen as something exotic, thoughtful and friendly
Especially those big foot, sneaker-made foot prints, right?
Our japenese friends when they lived here in the US had lovely slippers of all sizes lined up near the door for those who could not walk around without shoes! In those years, it was seen as something exotic, thoughtful and friendly
-
Nick H
- Posts: 9472
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Re: Discussion:Is any sequential order necessary at all for
Nothing exotic about Marks-&-Spencer slippers --- which I wore indoors long, long before becoming exposed to Indian customs 
I could never understand why people were happy to walk the outside dirt into their houses and suffer the weight of heavy outdoor footwear when indoors. Of course... wearing that footwear does mean that taking it off can result in everybody else suffering!
I could never understand why people were happy to walk the outside dirt into their houses and suffer the weight of heavy outdoor footwear when indoors. Of course... wearing that footwear does mean that taking it off can result in everybody else suffering!
-
arasi
- Posts: 16873
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Re: Discussion:Is any sequential order necessary at all for
Yes, Nick, Marks and Sparks slippers! Before us, post-war country, how many pairs of footwear one could have, no central heating, oh, and those drafts, can't walk in your socks (they were to be darned to keep you from buying another pair). The same in India, even if you weren't poor, you just had limited amount of everything...
Well, straying from the topic comes easy to us, apologies to TMK who is also a socially aware artiste who may put up with all our nonsense in the name of social history
Well, straying from the topic comes easy to us, apologies to TMK who is also a socially aware artiste who may put up with all our nonsense in the name of social history
-
kvchellappa
- Posts: 3636
- Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54
Re: Discussion:Is any sequential order necessary at all for
I wrote this quite some time back, but was hesitant to post in this august group, but now summoned my temerity to do so.
Art is expression of an idea. The idea has to be consistent. It has to have a theme and a structure. Take a play for instance. It has had a structure, whether eastern or western. It has acts subdivided into scenes. The number of acts and scenes in it differ based on the plot. Normally, by the time we arrive at the middle, the problem and the attendant circumstances are well delineated. It proceeds to a conclusion, happy or tragic. In Hamlet, we have the problem of a foul play. Hamlet suspects it, by the sudden death of his father and the hasty marriage of his mother with his uncle. The ghost appears and confirms his suspicion, but Hamlet is not yet sure. He devises a play- the thing where he will catch the king- to be enacted to test the veracity of the ghost version. That is in Act III. That is the climax and then follows the sequel leading to the tragedy. Any play has followed a similar structure. The later day dramatists have followed the structure as well. They did not dig into what it was before the structure. Leaving aside art, even biologically, we have come a long way from protozoa. We do not wish to go back to protozoa, even if it were possible. We do not go back to tuft and punchagaccham, as these waned with the advent of the British only. In CM itself, we do not discard the violin because it was not there before Dikshitar.
The structure in CM is conveniently ascribed to Ariyakkudi, but I have read that Ariyakkudi only formaised a crystallising convention. Things were veering round to it. Like the thematic development of a play, the format starts with warm up, climaxes with a main item, goes to a RTP if there is time and audience interest, and then ends on lighter pieces with a mangalam as auspicious beginning and end are part of the culture that has given birth to CM. This was not arbitrary, but organic, something like laws of nature or philosophy proceeding from the experience of phenomena. It is satisfying the musical quest. The artists have been at home with it, old and new alike. The audience savours it. It is unthinkable that all of them have been sheep. That it was not there before is like shunning the mike, which did not catch on. It is not the age of a thing, but its utility that concerns the musically inclined.
Art is expression of an idea. The idea has to be consistent. It has to have a theme and a structure. Take a play for instance. It has had a structure, whether eastern or western. It has acts subdivided into scenes. The number of acts and scenes in it differ based on the plot. Normally, by the time we arrive at the middle, the problem and the attendant circumstances are well delineated. It proceeds to a conclusion, happy or tragic. In Hamlet, we have the problem of a foul play. Hamlet suspects it, by the sudden death of his father and the hasty marriage of his mother with his uncle. The ghost appears and confirms his suspicion, but Hamlet is not yet sure. He devises a play- the thing where he will catch the king- to be enacted to test the veracity of the ghost version. That is in Act III. That is the climax and then follows the sequel leading to the tragedy. Any play has followed a similar structure. The later day dramatists have followed the structure as well. They did not dig into what it was before the structure. Leaving aside art, even biologically, we have come a long way from protozoa. We do not wish to go back to protozoa, even if it were possible. We do not go back to tuft and punchagaccham, as these waned with the advent of the British only. In CM itself, we do not discard the violin because it was not there before Dikshitar.
The structure in CM is conveniently ascribed to Ariyakkudi, but I have read that Ariyakkudi only formaised a crystallising convention. Things were veering round to it. Like the thematic development of a play, the format starts with warm up, climaxes with a main item, goes to a RTP if there is time and audience interest, and then ends on lighter pieces with a mangalam as auspicious beginning and end are part of the culture that has given birth to CM. This was not arbitrary, but organic, something like laws of nature or philosophy proceeding from the experience of phenomena. It is satisfying the musical quest. The artists have been at home with it, old and new alike. The audience savours it. It is unthinkable that all of them have been sheep. That it was not there before is like shunning the mike, which did not catch on. It is not the age of a thing, but its utility that concerns the musically inclined.