A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

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Rsachi
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Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by Rsachi »

Folks,
I have heard and read often enough the theory that Carnatic music suffers from Brahminic domination (apart from male-domination etc.) The foremost "Vocalist"or "vocaliser"of this theory is Vidwan T M Krishna, much appreciated for his music as well as his views. I am myself a fan of his music.

Image

I wish to refute this theory of Brahminic domination of Carnatic music continuing even to this day.

I heard many decades ago ( because of my family's involvement in academics in this area) the term Sanskritisation. I quote from Wikipedia the introduction to this term:
Sanskritization or Sanskritisation is a particular form of social change found in India. It denotes the process by which castes placed lower in the caste hierarchy seek upward mobility by emulating the rituals and practices of the upper or dominant castes. It is a process similar to passing in sociological terms. This term was made popular by Indian sociologist M. N. Srinivas in the 1950s, although earlier references to this process can be found in Castes in India: Their Mechanism, Genesis and Development by Dr. B. R. Ambedkar.
So my rebuttal or refutation is as follows:
1. It is quite well accepted that Kshatriyas (Swathi Tirunal, The Wodeyars of Mysore) were great patrons and proponents of Carnatic music. Their works dating to 19th Century or in some cases even earlier are available.
2. It is well known that Muthuswami Dikshitar had a number of disciples from lower castes who became torchbearers of his musical tradition.
3. Even those Brahmins who jealously safeguarded the portals of institutions like the Music Academy went and appreciated (and even learnt music from) celebrated men and women who were not Brahmins.
4. Famous music teachers like Naina PIllai, Subrahmanya Pillai had disciples from the Brahmin caste.
5. Musicians like T. Chowdiah were welcomed in the highest musical circles of Carnatic music despite their caste.
6. Many Brahmins associated with Carnatic music had second marriages and alliances with women of lower caste and this had its own effect on the intermingling of castes in Carnatic music.
7. Carnatic music is one of the avowed pastimes and bastions of Brahmins. They also protect their homes and rituals from infiltration and pollution by non-Brahmins. But when it comes to the Carnatic music stage, they have to bow down to greatness, whatever its caste. In this context I heard two stories.
A: Mysore T. Chowdiah, much venerated for his music and noble qualities, was still not allowed to sit and dine with Brahmins even in a big Brahmin patron's household where he was much respected.
B: Madurai Somu once finished a great concert in Nagpur. Lalgudi and Sivaraman who had accompanied him rushed off to the Brahmin host's house to dine first, since Somu was not their equal to sit and dine together with them. He followed slowly, with an understanding smile on his face.

These two examples show a mental deficiency of character among Brahmins, but we do not need to extrapolate it to their respect for music coming from great non-Brahmins.

I also think that many Brahmins have accepted as their spiritual or religious gurus non-Brahmins. Many swamis in Ramakrishna mission (starting with Swami Vivekananda) are not Brahmins. Sai baba, Jaggi Vausdev, Chinmayananda, Nityananda, etc. etc are all born non-Brahmins. But they are hailed as gurus and saints. That would have altered the Brahmin ethos quite a bit.

Since the 1970's a new generation of Carnatic music listeners and musicians (TMK is a great example) have come up. They are exposed to a society where there is
a. Reservation and many concessions for lower castes in education, jobs, including AIR and Doordarshan. There is relatedly much intellectual abhorrance of the Brahminical system.
b. The interactions with Hindustani music has increased quite a lot and HM is not full of Brahminical prejudices. This forces a rethink of values even among Brahmin-born Carnatic musicians of this generation. ( Tansen converted to Islam at the behest of Akbar).
c. Globalisation means that Carnatic music has more commerical drivers than pure tradition drivers. So bonhomie amongst all castes is de riguer.
d. The Madras music season is equally famous for gastronomic excesses in the canteen. How many of these canteen staff are real Brahmins?
e. Who is a real Brahmin? Brahmin-born musicians have been known to indulge in drink, smoking, eating meat, gambling, etc. etc. So apart from hypocrisy, they do not stand for anything great in Brahminism.
f. Governments like the one in TN and Karnataka have been very active in throwing open the portals of even temples (to non-Brahmin priests etc.) So the exclusivity of Brahminism is no longer there.
g. Eminent scholars and musicians born in lower caste have blown away any remaining false notions of Brahminical superiority in CM. You can give me many examples.
h. The influence of Nagaswara vidwans for example on the best of Carnatic musicians has I am sure instilled a respect in them for non-Brahmins who are that good. The only thing the Brahmins will not open to these people is their puja room or the kitchen in their own homes.
i. You cannot ignore the fact that the film industry has had a great influence on trends as well as opportunities in CM. There is no Brahminwood there.
j. The very fact that TMK is repeatedly airing this Brahmin-centric theory shows that as a sincere intellectual he wants things to change. Therefore one can say that just as there are hypocritical ritualistic Brahmins in the world of Carnatic music, there are open-minded people who respect music more than caste.

Do I need to say more?
Last edited by Rsachi on 18 Aug 2014, 19:27, edited 1 time in total.

Rsachi
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by Rsachi »

The photo shown above has a caption:
(Chembai Vaidyanatha Bhagavathar with Malaikottai Govindaswamy Pillai, Azhaganambi Pillai & Dakshinamurthy Pillai
on the violin, mridanga and kanjira respectively)

kvchellappa
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by kvchellappa »

A spirited post. Is it true that exceptions prove the rule? Nivedita also has rebutted the criticism.
SSI used to respect Dhanammal, Brinda, Mukta, as did Ariyakkudi, and so on.
Bharathiyar and several Brahmins have worked for removal of Brahmin air of superiority. Rajaji's role is no mean in this. Ambedkar was the surname of a Brahmin he adopted in gratitude. Long, long ago, Avvaiyar has sung 'Jathi irandozhiya verillai' (There are only two castes- givers and misers). All this only goes to show that the feelings run deep. We have to work more quietly and with love to achieve a more acceptable equality among caste and gender.
TMK's tirade is unseemly. Anger and harshness, bluntness and exaggeration, worsen the syndrome and are more divisive. How many non-Brahmins has he groomed? SSI and Chembai have done more than TMK perhaps.
CM has a niche audience. I feel even among Brahmins only a minority are attracted to it. I do not think that if someone is interested in CM from other castes, they do not get help. But, there may be no felt need. But, it will enrich CM if it is broadbased by effort. We will get singers with greater stamina and sruti suddham, perhaps.
To remove caste/gender difference generally is what we should aim at.

kvjayan
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by kvjayan »

Madurai Somu was a great, popular vocalist and he was not properly recognised by some leading institutions in his lifetime. Since one of the two accompanists quoted in the "Nagpur incident" is still around it would interesting to get his version of this story. As another rasika has commented it would be useful to know how may "non-brahmin" sishyas, has Sri T.M. Krishna trained and brought them on the stage, at least to play the tambura. It is also a reality that unlike bhajans and namasankeertanam, carnatic music exerts only a limited influence on the "brahmin" society. It is not as if the entire community has ganged up together to monopolise carnatic music so as to shut the door to others. Light (film) music commands greater popularity.

VK RAMAN
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by VK RAMAN »

Brahmins - in letter - have a long way to go to accept other castes in their customs and traditions and that includes music too. All musicians are not good teachers either. If brahmins accept a non brahmin as a teacher for music and if brahmins vow to teach non-brahmins that will be one small step in the right direction. Brahmin behavior should give warm welcome to nonbrahmins to join hands in enriching each others gift of music.

sivachinta1965
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by sivachinta1965 »

Dear Ownerji

Are you sleeping?

Siva

ramamantra
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by ramamantra »

VK Raman, I agree with you. Rsachi may have posted a long one numbering points of which many are mere superficial acceptance or acknowledgement. There are hardly a few in CM who know the existence of isai vellalars and such. In Karnataka, there was a major celebration called 'grahapravesha' where upper castes performed rites to allow dalits inside their houses --- news from a few days back. That was interesting, and still said that all these days, we have just been trying to be politically correct by nodding our heads in acceptance to mainstream 'rights' of dalits and so on. Rsachi, c'mon, what's that point abt Brahmins and second marriage and alliances with lower castes, etc... is that something to even write about? Any man will fall for any girl, if beautiful ---- where is the caste in that? Britishers married indian women and had anglo-indian kids, and how exactly were these kids treated?

But, my curiosity is how and when did Brahmins took over? During Tyagarajar, dikshitar and syama sastri times, was there a Brahmin lineage to CM? Can anyone enlighten me? That is, was there a parallel Brahmin involvement in CM that just began dominating after the devadasi act or something like that? When were Brahmins involved in CM in its history? Will be nice if someone can pitch in there.

randomhari
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by randomhari »

Denial!

munirao2001
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by munirao2001 »

In human evolution with higher intelligence, breaking away from original animalism, natural instinct and intuition was the dominating influence. Intelligence reaching higher growth level, attained dominating influence over the natural aspects of instinct and intuition. Humans to meet the challenge of life and living amidst natural phenomena of destruction and death, developed sense of mind to work the nature to their advantage. In the process, they observed, realized and recognized the need for the power from the vagaries of nature, besides the basic food, shelter and later clothing. Humans invented power tools-pastoral-first physical, with requirement of muscle strength and developing the same with technology, the instruments of warfare, arms and ammunition;second-agri- economic, with requirement for bartar, exchange of excess produce with other produce in need and later money and other instruments; third, organizational-political, with requirement for rule and governance over a group and large population for subjugation of the other two categories of power wielding people- as nayak, prabhu and prajapathi and also for the social order and justice; fourth-aspirational-religious, with requirement to meet the self actualization, beyond physical, metaphysical, with set belief a superior human can influence the Supreme and super natural unseen power and become agent of such powers through appeasement of rituals of worship and prayer. Human invention of the religious power proved to be the most powerful to influence and control the other three categories of powerful people. This development is surprisingly similar with all the civilizations in human history. The political and religion powers in alliance and understanding to wield the power, together to reap the maximum benefits.
This division and distribution of power tools later developed and got established as class and caste. Manu smriti classifying as Brahmin-religious power; Kshatriya-political power; Vysya-economic power; Shudra-physical/labor power. Truly, internalization of power division and control given the externalization of divisions of labor. After the annihilation or establishing the control over the triabals, the states were formed with monarchy. Kshatriya and Brahmin in alliance established as supreme powers, with tilt of higher influence resting with Brahmin. Brahmins for continuity in power, achieved reverence and following with religion, theosophy and philosophy. With set belief in religion, life and after life, Kshatriya, Vysya also became brahminical, in practice of religious matters governing their lives. The brahminical influence on the tribals and shudras were mixed, some in acceptance, some in resistance and rebellion.
With modern developments in political, economical, technological & industrial and social, the caste and class systems have changed from heredity and are in flux. But the power and power tools remain same and unchanged. Brahminical systems and practices are still prevalent in idealism with waning influence, gradually in materialism.
munirao2001

munirao2001
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by munirao2001 »

ramamantra
"my curiosity is how and when did Brahmins took over? " you wanted to know. CM was part of 'sangita seva' ritual, a part of 'mantra pushpa' rendering and other rituals, in the poojas and sevas in the temples with inscriptions found dating to 4th to 6th century. Also 'prabhanda' singing both in temples and the courts of Kings with reference maerials dating to 9th century on wards. During this period in history, vocal singing in temples were by brahmins during the pooja/seva and during the utsava/procession, by devadasi. Mangala vaadyam by non-brahmins only. In Tamilzh regions, in saivaite temples Oduvaars were Isai vellars with very few exceptions, brahmins. In vaishnavite temples, strictly brahmins only. Around 11th century on wards, daasakoota movement started in kannada speaking regions and during the Nayak rule, the Kannadiga Dasa parampara propagated bhakthi through dasara padams, kirtanams, ugabhoga, suladi and gamaka based on CM. CM was given sound theoretical base by Purandara Dasa and was the beginning of the current CM. Dasas were brahmins but there were dasas belonging to non-brahmins also like Kanaka Dasa. Also during the early 11th century, Saivaite Basava movement with vachana (Basavanna) singing commenced using both CM and HM, with non-brahmins saints. There were very few brahmins also singing vachanas. The history gives us insight that with CM being used for temple rituals and in bhakthi propagation, including 'katha kalakshepam' and 'Hari katha', brahmins and non-brahmins shared the honor. With Utsava performances in temple premises, kings darbhars and zamindar's houses(marriage celebrations) gaining prominence, Brahmin taking to the practice of CM in high numbers, Brahmin domination commenced. It was sustained mainly due to the support for sustenance by the Brahmins-Iyyengars and Iyyers in majority and other brahmins in minority. Isai vellars were marginalized with only exceptionally talented receiving the recognition and reward. With pracheena gayana padhati ending and modern 19th century 'cutcheri' padhati beginning, Brahmin domination was almost complete with Isai vellars getting least support.
To summarise, upto 10th century, equal status; 12th to 18th century, Brahmin domination; 19th century on wards, total Brahmin domination. This total brahmin domination made possible by the non-brahmins moving away from CM to other genre-folk;theater;film etc., and committed and dedicated support to CM by Iyyengars and Iyyer Brahmins only. This is in continuum.

munirao2001

vv_venkat
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by vv_venkat »

So what ... may be brahmins are more tuned to carnatic music...they put in lot of hard work to be experts in that field.. each community is good in a particular field .. before any others does any brahmin bashing please look at your pitfalls ... people need to object only if people other than brahmins are not allowed to practice carnatic music

ramamantra
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by ramamantra »

munirao2001 wrote: To summarise, upto 10th century, equal status; 12th to 18th century, Brahmin domination; 19th century on wards, total Brahmin domination. This total brahmin domination made possible by the non-brahmins moving away from CM to other genre-folk;theater;film etc., and committed and dedicated support to CM by Iyyengars and Iyyer Brahmins only. This is in continuum.

munirao2001
Thanks, munirao, that was insightful. This Brahmin domination is 'brahminising' music in all its aspects - be it weak voice and stamina to brahminical pronounciation, etc. Music is also getting too intellectualized --- how can you get mesmerized when your brain is active? Music has to touch the heart, and that is not at all there now; and Brahmins are not more tuned to Carnatic music, like venkat says. We've just made it a ritual like we do with everything to get it into our habits and seep into our minds (not hearts). Moreover, the iyer-iyengar thing is not helping other Brahmins, say a madhva or a tulu/telugu Brahmin to have a platform or make a name in Chennai. These guys are so full of themselves - they are not even aware others also exist.

vgovindan
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by vgovindan »

"...Music has to touch the heart..."
ramamantra,
You are trying to look for something that has become extinct in CM - for whatever reason. Ah! Those maestros who relish syllables!

venkatakailasam
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by venkatakailasam »

The fundamental question is as to who is Brahmin..

I hesitate to agree that all those who have poonul are Brahmins..A Brahmin is one who has a tuft, and wears Panchakacham

and does Sandyavandanam thrice a day who who is in search of Brahmam and who does service to fellow beings who are not able bodied..

How many us are Brahmins?..
Apart from the above there are many others:

(Late)Madurai Somasundaram,M.M. Dandapani Desikar, M.k.Thiagaraja Baghavatar,M. K. Govindaraja Baghavatar were all legends in carnatic music, to name a few. If one can include non-vocalists, but were all pucca carnatic musucians,we can quote Nadaswara Vidvans Tiruvaduthurai Rajarathnam Pillai, !
Karukuricchi Arunachalam,Vidwan Meenakshi Sundaram Pillai,Kuzhikkarai Pitchaiappa, Shaikh Chinna Moula Sahib, Veena Dhanammal, Tiruppamburam Swaminatha Pillai (Flute)---These are some of the illustrious names, but the list is long.There were and are some ladies who were proficient in Nadhaswaram including Muslims ladies.

n case of violin, Mysore Brothers - Mysore M Nagraj and Dr. M. Manjunath - they are not Brahmins but they are among the finest violinists in the country and in the world.

If you are looking at yesteryear vidwans, we have Sangeetha Kalanidhi Mysore T Chowdiah who was not a Brahmin. I don't think Karnataka has had a better violinist. His great-grandson A. Chandankumar is an accomplished flautist.
Namagiripettai Krishnan, Thavil Vidwans Valayappatti,Haridwaramangalam, Viswa (Flute) were dominating this carnatic music world.
Kumbakonam Rajamanickam Pillai, Thiruchi GovindarajaPillai, Pazani Subramania pillai, were all great..not to leave Chittur Subramania Pillai...
M Thyagarajan was not Brahmin (although he is commonly assumed to be so). Neither is P Unnikrishnan.

T Brinda / T Muktha
M L Vasanthakumari (Her mother Madras Lalithangi was not a Brahmin..)

When the Dravidian parties started dominating the political scene, many people thought that carnatic music is not for them and non-brahmins considered that this genre is meant only for brahmins and left the scene. Otherwise it is not due to the domination of the brahmins.

I think it might be prudent to point out that TMK never claims Carnatic music to be the sole property of Brahmins - he merely states that Brahmins have dominated the art form in later years. Which is true. The ratio between Brahmin to Non-Brahmin musicians is skewed in favour of Brahmins..

Information as gathered from net..
Last edited by venkatakailasam on 20 Aug 2014, 14:44, edited 1 time in total.

munirao2001
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by munirao2001 »

ramamantra Sir

CM gives equal importance to Raaga bhaavam, which is based on the aesthetics of svara and svara sanchari and Saahithya bhaavam, which is based on the aesthetics of words and lyrics, with primacy for Raaga bhaavam. Primacy for Raaga bhaavam is because of the potential and possibilities for aesthetic enjoyment, sans word and lyric- creative tools of aalaapana, svara prastara/kalpana and tanam in manodharma sangita aspects. In other genre of music, primacy is for saahithya bhavam.
CM's goals are 1. Bliss/Ananda arising out of pure/divine conscious of naada anubhavam, moments of self abnegation and 2. Manoranjakatvam, listening pleasure for the rasikas. Derivative benefits of Sastriya sangita, CM are 1.Deha Sudhi, purification of body(organic); 2. Karna Sudhi, purification of indriyas/sense organs of hearing, ear and associated sense of mind; 3.Manas Sudhi, purification of manas, sense of mind associated with aesthetics of momentary pleasure, in short memory; 4.Chitta Sudhi, sense of mind associated with intellect, with aesthetics of pleasure of long lasting in memory with recall pleasure. Ideal is highest state for Chitta, the intellectual pleasure and next lower is Manasa pleasure. Deha Sudhi, Karna Sudhi and Manas Sudhi achieves the objectives with judicious means of svara, saahithya and kaala, time measure in rhythm. Chitta Sudhi is achieved in sublime, pure and powerful naada, svara(s). Chitta/intellectual pleasure is a very rare moments and Deha/bodily pleasure is very common. Karna/hearing pleasure is also common, with specific skills and efforts. Manas pleasure is also rare moments, demanding higher skills/saadhana and manodharma aspects and right balance of svara and saahithya in compositions. Without musical maturity, internalization of the very high values in creative aspects, intent, of manodharma in CM and very high skills in externalization through delivery of the internalized 'ideals', Chitta and Mano purity are not possible. All time Great Maestros and Great Maestros only reach this ideal and realize, partaking their pleasure with rasikas and rasikas reveling in such very rare and rare moments in deep and cherished memories.
munirao2001

munirao2001
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by munirao2001 »

ramamantra Sir,
You opine that (also general opinion) "the iyer-iyengar thing is not helping other Brahmins, say a madhva or a tulu/telugu Brahmin to have a platform or make a name in Chennai. These guys are so full of themselves - they are not even aware others also exist." No Sir. Great Maestros belonging to Madhva/tulu/telugu/sanketi Brahmin communities achieved recognition and reward only due to the support of Iyyers and Iyyengars rasikas and patrons, living in all the centers of CM music appreciation in the past and in the present. The respect and love showered by Iyyers and Iyyengars Brahmin communities on musicians is not matched by any other Brahmin communities. This observation is experiential and fact. Great Maestros/Maestros, belonging to all the other Brahmin communities other than Iyyers and Iyyengars, achieving recognition and 'popularity' are only 'facilitated' by few patrons, very rarely, by all the other Brahmin communities, other than Iyyers and Iyyengars.
It is also a fact that musicians belonging to non-brahmin communities, even though they are 'Brahminical', received recognition and reward only with their exceptional and immense vidwath, who could not be denied their acceptance and success.

Summarising my arguments, CM practitioners and rasikas are with set beliefs and values of 'Brahminical' and CM's growth, development and sustenance made possible by Iyyers and Iyyengars Brahmin communities, with a small percentage of other communities, as exceptions. CM to become broad based, the solution lies only in primacy for merits over all the other aspects by practitioners, patrons and rasikas.

munirao2001
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by munirao2001 »

venkatakailasam Sir
On "the fundamental question is as to who is Brahmin.." A brahmin is a person seeking and possessing Brhaman knowledge. Not by birth, but by becoming 'dwija', twice born-first coming in to being by birth and second having 'brahmopadesa' and taking oath to seek the Brahma knowledge and truth; practice;perform ordained duties; follow the three phases in life-Brahmacharya, Grihasta, vaanaprasta and sanyasa,the fourth, if initiated; adhere to Daya, Daana and Dharmic principles in the conduct of living; teach and help the seekers and followers,satchintana, sadaachara and sanmaarga in matters of religion and its practices; rest in 'jeevan mukthi' with attainment of rajasa by eliminating tamasic; attain sattva by eliminating rajasic, gunas(qualities/characteristics) by tapasya, with chosen path of either bhakthi or gjnana for spiritual progress.
Strictly judging by the sastra, it is highly difficult to find a Brahmin. Also Kshatriya, Vysya and Sudra. We are in parts of the whole.
munirao2001

arasi
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by arasi »

Munirao,
For the last two lines of your post, I thank you.

Chips on our shoulders speak not--
Whipping up differences, let it stop--

Dipping in the ocean of CM helps--
To shed left-over hurts, however gained...

venkatakailasam
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by venkatakailasam »

Munirao 2001..Your eloquent posts 15 and 16...

A good music is one which is pleasant and soothing to the ears. It should make one feel satisfied. The taste has to linger for a while.
Elaborate Raga alapaana,Swara Sanjaram and Palllavi Pyro techniques can show the knowledge and experience of the performer.
But unless the Bakthi bhava imbibed in to the compositions by the composers can be brought out by the artists, it will fall short of good music..

It is possible to attain Mukthi through Bhakthi ..An illustration was provided by Shri TS Balakrishna Sastrigal...

Listen here:

E SWARA-Chembai 023-posted-TS Balakrishna Sastrigal on Chembai vaithiyanatha Bahavathar.

http://mfi.re/watch/8t4k2h7g4saneyu/E_S ... vathar.avi

Purist
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by Purist »

I feel the issue has got twisted. First let us keep 'who is a Brahmin ' aspect aside..that is a highly debated matter
and not easily concluded.
There is no denying of the fact that many Non-Brahmins have made a indellible mark in the field of CM.
However if you look at the audience level (the listeners/rasikas) you will find it be more Brahmin centric.
Is this a post 1970 development, I do not know for sure. Why is it there are not many takers for CM from other
sections of society? When temple concerts and festival music were in vogue I guess there was wider participation.
'Domination' could not have existed at performing level, because many non-brahmnic stalwarts rode the show as well.
(specially 1930-1960 period). When music moved to sabhas and chambers, that could perhaps have been the starting point
of migration to a particular section of community showing interest and nurtured from thereon.
How do we broadben the listener's base is crux of the matter. It cannot happen overnight but only by sustained
efforts of collective minds.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Purist, That is a very succinct and level-headed assessment of the situation. That sounds about right to me from what I have gathered.

A few other points.
  1. While this is predominantly about the cauvery delta and its nexus to Chennai what was the situation at other centers of CM including Thirunelveli/Ettayapuram, Thiruvazhumkode and Mahishūru
  2. There are three aspects to "Domination" of which only one has a pejorative connotation
    1. Contribution in terms of scholarship, performance, compositions etc.
      Given Brahmin's role in society, it is not a stretch to state that the preservation, propagation and evolution of knowledge is the dominion of the Brahmin community especially if those were co-opted to be related to religion and spirituality. So high funda literature and art music in terms of theory and composition etc were dominated by them.
    2. Attendance and other aspects of being rasikas of CM
      CM had become the family heirloom of most Brahmin families. It did not start in Chennai but they brought that heritage with them to Chennai when the migration of Brahmin families to Chennai happened over the past 150 years. This and the previous point is related since they are part of parcel of the same eco system.
    3. Power and control and the associated biases that come into play.
      Brahmins were not the rulers/decision makers/sponsors/patrons/moneyed-people until the center of gravity shifted to Chennai.
      So what was different about Chennai? I think we can trace that to the fact that the lawyers and other salaried people in the higher echelons of society during the British rule were Brahmins and they had the influence and power to make things happen. It is no surprise things turned out the way it did in Chennai.
  3. One question beyond all this is, how come CM has been under-represented outside of the Brahmin, Isai Vellalar and Devadasi communities? I think that is understandable too in a silo-ed society and culture. We do not even need to bring in any overt discrimination to explain this.

Purist
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by Purist »

Thanks VK. It's long time since I had a appreciative nod on rasikas.org :)

As for question 3, the domination aspects you have outlined give some clues, yet why
has it been shun so extensively is puzzling, given the fact many other brahmnic interests have evoked
considerable following.

ramamantra
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by ramamantra »

vasanthakokilam wrote:
[*]One question beyond all this is, how come CM has been under-represented outside of the Brahmin, Isai Vellalar and Devadasi communities? I think that is understandable too in a silo-ed society and culture. We do not even need to bring in any overt discrimination to explain this
Right. When my daughter's guru in Tanjore, a nadaswaram vidwan (A grade) replied to a question abt which caste he belonged to, he lowered his head and voice and answered with shame writ on his face, 'daasi kudumbam'. I felt bad for him. Why shld he hang his head in shame?

Probably we 'seemingly self-righteous' Brahmins make them feel so though their profession got abolished long back.

venkatakailasam
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by venkatakailasam »

Are you watching Vijay star's Bakthi in the morning from 06.30hours...

One would find most of the audience are the people from community other than Brahmin's ..Similar is the case if there is program of Namasankerthanam..

These are devoid of complicated Elaborate Raga alapaana,Swara Sanjaram and Palllavi Pyro techniques and have only just a simple musical discourse..
which brings out Bakthi.....as one can understand...easily....

What is level headed understanding for one need not be so to many even though they are not far behind..as people understand easy and simple thing...not algebraic and trigonometrical correlations.

munirao2001
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by munirao2001 »

purist Sir
Quote "How do we broaden the listener's base is crux of the matter. It cannot happen overnight but only by sustained
efforts of collective minds." UNQuote Yes Sir. Outreach program and opportunities for the deserving more and more non-brahmin practitioners has to be planned and executed with sustained momentum till the goal is achieved and maintained.

munirao2001

sureshvv
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by sureshvv »

ramamantra wrote:
Right. When my daughter's guru in Tanjore, a nadaswaram vidwan (A grade) replied to a question abt which caste he belonged to...
Why was this question even asked? Wish you had preempted the reply and treated the questioner with the disgust she deserved.

munirao2001
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by munirao2001 »

Venkatakailasam Sir,
As already posted, highest aim and achievement is in SATCHITANANDA in metaphysical, our Indian Classical Music also has similar aim and goal, as it is 'sulabha maarga'. Intellectual pleasure is best achieved with highest creative tool-Raga aesthetic of svara(s). Next in order is sense of mind, manas, pleasure and is best achieved with the internalization of vaaggeyakara hridayam, both the raaga and saahithya bhaavam and delivery with 'bhakthi' aesthetic in saahithya, but also 'bhakthi' aesthertic in raga. The impact of such great qualities in music will make deep memory, with great potential for perfect recall memory and delivery of pleasure, almost to the extent of the first experience. Style and delivery manner giving listening pleasure, 'karna preeti'- is temporal but interesting and even at times exciting.
Mukthi, as you must be aware, are of two kinds - One, jeevanmukthi and vimukthi or moksha. Jeevanmukthi is being in sattva guna, after getting rid of tamasa and rajasa gunas. Karnatic Music greatly helps in achieving the jeevanmukthi. Moksha is achieved only being in the state of intellect, beyond even sattva, rest in stithapragnatva or stillness of the mind, with perception of reality and sense of fulfillment.
Karnatic Music has also the ideal of 'rakthi' which enables the delivery of 'mano-ranjakatva' to the discerning rasika- state of excellence in all the creative tools-raaga aalapana;taana;neraval;svaraprastara. Rakthi becoming medium for achieving bhakthi.
On practice and patronage aspects for non-brahmin but 'brahminical' communities, devadasi community no longer in existence and they have merged with other communities, seamlessly with change in the social order and reforms. Isai vellar are very much thriving and they need all the support in retention also regaining the lost out, in the interest of Karnatic Music. The action must focus on recognition and reward and good performing opportunities in all the important and high visible music festivals. Start with Nagasvara vidwans and vidushees performances and lec-demos in all the sabhas duly supported by the rasikas in attending and appreciating. This support with regained confidence to make a living and a success, we will win back not only the practitioners but very importantly the rasikas from non-brahminical communities, lost to other genre of music.
I repeat to achieve this, we rasikas must act and extend our unstinting support by giving due respect the practitioners and also physically-financially and appreciation. Let us make immediate beginning.

munirao2001

venkatakailasam
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by venkatakailasam »

It is nice to read all about the theory of carnatic music..
As you know I am not a performer but I have been fortunate to listen to music
Continuously for hours of most of the performers in a day..But still I feel that I am a fake rasika:
as I am poor on the intellectual side of the art, as I could not absorb a raga….
I am most attracted of the Bakthi side of the music which is spiritual as against the intellectual
element in it ..
we need not have theoretical knowledge of the music that one is listening…Bhakti and carnatic, I am of the view are inseparable.. The great composers like Tyagaraja,dikshidar,purandradasar or even Tamil composers 'arunachala kavi' and 'Oothukadu' have composed the kritis with devotion and they were born out of extreme bakti be it Ram or Devi….Muruga or kannan. Every phrase in their composition is impregnated with devotion.
This has to be brought out in full by the performers to attract even the layman listener..Many of the artists to day misses it and are more interested in showing their vidvat…which purely applies to intellectual side..This is the one of the many reasons..
The abolition of devadasi system against protest from Veenai Danamal and others alienated the communities other than the upper castes from the performing arts. The Isai Vellalars felt overwhelmed by the stigma of being part of the Devadasi community. Most of them gave up their hereditary profession. The loss to Carnatic music was immense. This being primarily an oral tradition, several songs were lost in the process..( read in the net)..More reasons for the situation obtaining have been brought elaborately at
http://www.nadasurabhi.org/articles/6-a ... ?showall=1

Incidentally, it may be interesting to see that there was to my knowledge no Brahmin has played Nadaswaram or Thavil..What can be the reason..

"no Brahmin has played Nadaswaram or Thavil"

Sorry for a typo error ..corrected
Last edited by venkatakailasam on 25 Aug 2014, 19:58, edited 2 times in total.

munirao2001
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by munirao2001 »

purist Sir,
You say who is a Brahmin is debatable. No Sir. Manu smriti and later works aaranyakas, upanishads, itehasas and puranas have clearly defined and explained. After the foreign invaders rule commenced, the varnasrama started getting disturbed. But all the foreign invaders could not change the religion and religiosity, including recent times Mughals and Britishers. They were influenced by the Vedas and Vedanta, Europeans-British, French, Germans and Jews. During the British rule, with educational system changed to suit British administration, the drastic change in varnashrama dharma with vast multitude of people in India for employment and living, better economically. What I have posted on Brahmnatva, is a gist of the details of the original, but giving the primary qualities and requirements. For clarity and understanding to discuss and arrive at the logical conclusion, the knowledge has to be perfect, if not near perfect.

munirao2001

munirao2001
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by munirao2001 »

venkatakailasam Sir.
You say "we need not have theoretical knowledge of the music that one is listening…Bhakti and carnatic, I am of the view are inseparable." No sir. 'Sastriya' sangita and 'Bhakthi sangita' are different. Saastriya denotes the music is based on theory and grammar. Saastria sangita has both Bhakthi-Idealism and rakthi-materialism aspects, similar to Philosophy. Only discerning rasika with initiation of basic theory and grammar can appreciate the Saastriya sangita. Saastriya sangita vaaggeyakaras 'vastu' in saahithya aspect was/is Bhakthi, with few other aspects were also used. But they used 'art music' for ornamentation and excellence of sangita aspect based on raaga/melody. These compositions are different when compared with the compositions used in Naamasankirtanams. Namasankirtanams compositions also use raga and tala but eschew 'art music' characteristics deliberately and consciously. 'Naama' in Sankirtana giving primacy for akshara pradhanyatva and suitability for group/community singing. Bhakthi aspect in Namasankirtana, is 'externalized' aesthetics in natural, pure, straight, clear and 'exaggerated form' in delivery/performance. Naturally, it is easier for focus, attention, appreciation, creativity is limited. Art music is based on the 'internalized' aesthetics in subtle and abstract form and intellectually most satisfying with creativity, unlimited. A patanthara in Namasankirtana is fixed with no scope for improvization, except in slokam/viruttam singing. In art music, manodharma is given full reign subject to sampradaya/excellence in tradition.
In a nutshell, Naamasankirtana is for pamara and Saastriya Sangita is for pandita, at least a discerning listener. Carnatic Music, besides the Bhakthi pradhanyatva making use of navavidha bhakti marga, also makes liberal use of nava rasa bhava/aesthetics, with Karunya and Sringaara bhava/aesthetics. Compositions in Krithi, Keertana, Pada, Padams, Suladi, Gamaka, Vachana and javali of Great Vaaggeyakaras stand testimony to art music aspect, besides the bhakthi music aspect in Carnatic Music. With the invention of twelve svaras/notes, talas and compositions of such magnitude, it is all pervasive and universal in music.
Rasika/listener has to be clear in his choice, expect only bhakthi aesthetics in Naamasankirtana and total aesthetics, including the powerful bhakthi aesthetics in Carnatic Music, a Saastriya Sangita. For simplicity, it is very much like the difference between 'modern' poetry and 'classical' poetry in literature. Modern poetry, used in film music lyrics is appreciated easily by the mass and classical literature is appreciated only by the class. Naamasankirtana is music for the masses and Carnatic, Saastriya music is for class, at the best 'critical mass'.

"Incidentally, it may be interesting to see that there was to my knowledge a Brahmin who played Nadaswaram or Thavil..What can be the reason.." Very simple Sir, either interest and love of the instrument or a Great Maestro inspiring. Yes, Brahmins learnt and took to playing Nagasvaram/clarinet/saxophone and tavil.
munirao2001

VK RAMAN
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by VK RAMAN »

Bhakti to Song or Bhakti to Diety

Purist
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by Purist »

munirao2001 wrote:purist Sir,
You say who is a Brahmin is debatable. No Sir. Manu smriti and later works aaranyakas........
munirao2001

I haven't said about the definition of who is a Brahmin. It is very well documented in upanishads, smritis etc and
is beyond debate. I was referring to the attribution at wordly existence level.

munirao2001
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by munirao2001 »

VKRaman Sir

It is bhakti to the sastra, sampradaya, vaggeyakara and his composition, bani with or without bhakti for the deity-nama or rupa, qualities expression in saahithya of the composition, in the art music aspect of Carnatic Music and also Hindustani music.

munirao2001

munirao2001
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by munirao2001 »

purist Sir
Thanks for the clarification. My posting also discusses this existential brahminism and a brahmin.
munirao2001

cheeka
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by cheeka »

Why blaming brahmin community for domination on this form of music. At least here let them enjoy music without reservation. For more than century thay have protected CM. Some minds are tuned with melody and some minds with harmony. Classical music both HM and CM emphasis on melody, rules regulation, grammer. Bramins liked it and embraced that form of music and popularised within themself. At present cinema and other music is popular and most of them use CM only for starting to learn music.They want CMs basics to sing or play instrument so that they can excel in other form of music. It is general felling that CM on sampradaya style does not yield money. But brahmins believe that CM elevates the mind and nama sankeerthana elevates the soul. Majority of rasikas of CM are brahmins. Let CM remain on purest form with the able people and not to dilute it. Those who sings CM with clean shruthi and layam attains brahmanandam as told by Thyagaraja. On the reverse side those who sing CM properly become brahmin. Why generalise this issue, take this issue to parliment and make some am---kar to write grammer of carnatic muisc customised to public. Pl leave this intellectual property rights to Naradha and Hanuman.

cheeka

munirao2001
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by munirao2001 »

cheeka Sir

In the matter of social reforms and equality establishment for the sake of unity and also higher growth and development, we have adopted constitution with consensus to ensure inequality is ended and actions have been taken with support.
TMk, as an intellectual, desires equal opportunity and inequality ended in the carnatic music and its environment for the higher growth and development as an art form, beyond elitism, prevalent. It is not blame game, as very wrongly understood. It is empathy to replace the sympathy.

munirao2001

arasi
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by arasi »

Munirao,
As Pratyaksham Bala in the other thread on TMK's book says in his recent post, why go to lengths to elaborate on and to support an intellectual whose ideas of 'equality' no one is questioning? What's more, many here, intellectual or not, share his ideas.

If we continue in this strain, it starts to look more like a political campaign, which you don't have in mind at all, I think.

Artistes can be whatever they want to be in their thinking and beliefs. We are more interested in what they bring to us in their music, and how they train SishyAs and how they work on keeping the 'quality' of music while taking it into the future with their own contributions.

Their doing things in getting school children interested in classical music is also to be appreciated.

RasikAs also like to see top notch musicians improve on their craft by working on their gifts. They appreciate it when the musicians present better and better music as time goes by...

Ponbhairavi
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by Ponbhairavi »

May I request P Bala to pl. give the authentic English translation of the kuRaL which begins like this( I am sorry I do not remember the second half)
KaLithAnai kAraNam kAttudhal neer kIzh kuLithAnai...

This would be a good national anthem to closing

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

kuRaL 929
kaLittAnaik kAraNam kATTudal kIzhnIrk
kuLittAnait tItturI iyaTRu.


Translation by G.U.Pope:-
Reasoning with a drunkard is like going under water with a torch in search of a drowned man.

Translation by Himalayan Academy:-
One may as well carry a candle underwater to search For a drowned man as use reason to sober one drowned in drink.

Translation by Kaviyogi Shuddhananda Bharati:-
Can torch search one in water sunk? Can reason reach the raving drunk?

Ponbhairavi
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by Ponbhairavi »

Thanks

May be KalithAnai can also be taken to mean one who is under the spell of a delusion caused by great pleasure(kaLippu)(for example, strong love ?)

harimau
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by harimau »

kvjayan wrote:As another rasika has commented it would be useful to know how may "non-brahmin" sishyas, has Sri T.M. Krishna trained and brought them on the stage, at least to play the tambura.
Emmanuelle Martin. :D

KNV1955
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by KNV1955 »

Sachi no offense. If you are regularly attending concerts in Chennai then you will know it is worthless to discuss on this topic. Off season you go to any (free) concert in a small sabha like Nada Inbam you will not see more 50 people of which 80% are Senior citizen & balance 20% are young performers & those learning CM. After an hour it will be 30. Towards the end not more than 20. This music season is a big drama. Several sabhas conduct their progs in marriage halls. The acoustics are very bad. Toilets stink. Chairs are bad. No parking space. Arrogant sabha secretaries. Seeing the number of new Sabhas that have mushroomed in the last 3-5 years, I feel there is some money to be made .... Otherwise why would so many come up? CM is not popular even amongst young Brahmin boys & girls. My son wants to marry a girl who has some taste for CM & HM. He says she should not get irritated if he plays CM or HM. I said very difficult to find one in Brahmin community. :) It is mainly the NRIs & some corporates who are keeping the Season cash box ticking. With rupee weakening year after year NRIs can afford to pay $10 a concert. I don't know what TMK is upto. He has wasted his God given good voice. I am planning to attend his lecture demonstration tomorrow at Parthasarathy Swami Sabha at one of the lousiest venues (Vidya Bharathi Kalyana Mandapam). :)) at 8.30 am.

KNV

VK RAMAN
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by VK RAMAN »

We have not had such a scathing attack on Subhas for a long time. Wow!

arasi
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by arasi »

KNV,
Good to hear from you after a while :)

Well said. By hook or crook, the show goes on. Yes, we vidESis play a part in making it possible for the show to go on--not forgetting the sponsors who keep CM alive and kicking all through the year.

About the sabha secretaries, I have encountered the kind you have mentioned :) and also some exceptions, thank goodness!

All the facts you mention are there for all to see! Yet, just as a pilgrim who wants to go to kumbha mElA or mAmAngam festival gives scant thought to less than bearable amenities, we come, year after year :-o

Rsachi
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by Rsachi »

Sachi kkural:
Bear not malice for those with self-importance drunk,
Stare not at those from CM shrunk,
Use not those toilets forever stunk,
Miss not the Margazhi season spunk.

arasi
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by arasi »

Stare not at the hankie on the seat meant for a late-comer friend
Spare not the stare when they start humming to the song from stage

Shear not the enthusiasm of next seat rasikA, however little his share
Share not your appreciative responses when lofty rasikAs sit next to you

More than all, forget not that you are there for the joy music brings!

KNV1955
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by KNV1955 »

Sachi & Arasi translate to Tamizh to sing as vrutham. TMK would love to sing since the theme is secular :D

KNV

PUNARVASU
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by PUNARVASU »

The auto driver may not oblige
'varAdu, sir,amma, he may declare
You may want to hear Varadu
With Sanjay at some Sabah
He may want go the opposite side
By hook or crook you get a vAhanam
Run to join the queue at 7 AM
For a concert at 7 PM
You feel you have scaled the Everest
With ticket in hand , you march
To the canteen for food for the stomach
The show goes on, for thirty days and more
With a spill over here and there
The season has begun
And you are happy you
Went for the 'SEASON'

arasi
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by arasi »

Punarvasu,
Thanks for joining in :)

PUNARVASU
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Re: A rebuttal of "CM's Brahminic domination" theory

Post by PUNARVASU »

arasi, I can only join 'virtually'! Not 'really '! :(

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