What if ...TMK were in charge of the Canteen!?

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 27 Dec 2014, 15:49

I am fresh from watching a Walk the Talk interview of Sri TM Krishna with Mr Shekhar Gupta. TMK makes no bones about Gupta's baldness or insecurity in discussing classical music which Gupta tries to hide under fulsome praise for the one and only TMK.

TMK says: why should he sing Ganesha's song first... why not much later in a concert? why should one simply respect tradition? respect age? why should he not sing Sahana varna almost like a slow-moving main piece with elaborate niraval etc? How he once sang the He Govinda song in Kambhoji just to be different...

Then I read this about the Gastronomie Margazhie 2014:
http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/che ... l#comments

So let me fantasize a bit about the fate of Gnanambika Menu if TMK made a lateral diversification investment from his authorship and acting royalties and decided to recast their menu:
1. Isn't it so dumb serving Thayir vadai with boondi? So what if grand old man SSI liked it that way? Let's hence forth serve Thayir vadai with jilebi.
2. It's so boring eating Idli with sambar. Something old, faded, so bad that's what Serfoji-followers did. Let's eat it with Kheer!!!!
3. I know you will ask about ragi dosa and Murungakeerai adai. We have decided to celebrate the Malala Nobel Prize by offering Ragi Naan with Murungakeerai Rogan Josh. For starters, you can have smoked Arabi fry.
4. Breakfast shall henceforth be Thayir sadam with wasabi pickle.
5. Don't worry. The good old semia bhath with be there. But we serve it with not chutney or gojju but mustard sauce.
6. We have introduced some innovations in the pizza department. we serve pure rice-based pizzas with toppings like Malabar stew & chips, Andhra Gongura Brinjal, and Maharatta sheera.
7. Oh, almost forgot about the coffee. Irish of course.

This will be so revolutionary that it will merit a half-page article in The Hindu, a cover story in India Today and another Walk the Talk with Gupta. (Unless Gupta's car gets stuck in a traffic jam near the NGS MA stretch.)

This time in Walk the Talk he will sing " Hey Govind" in raga Priyadarshini*

* http://www.raaga.com/play/?id=305634

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 27 Dec 2014, 16:07

If the Priyadarshini link didn't work, try this one:
http://play.raaga.com/hindustani/album/ ... -3-HI01170

Also please allow me to replace Serfoji with Sambhaji.
Thank you.

devan · Post by **devan** » 27 Dec 2014, 16:50

A good one

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 27 Dec 2014, 20:23

I hear that, within past two days or so, he held a lecdem which he offered to turn into a q and a session. If would have been a chance to ask the man himself.

Of course, the answer might have been along similar lines to that given by the Dali lama, when asked about how to live married life: "I a monk, don't ask me!" [Genuine, I was there, but paraphrased]

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 27 Dec 2014, 23:26

Rsachi, TMK has already said that food and music are two different cups of tea and are not to be compared, in Anvesha where they were looking to give you a prize for your question.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 28 Dec 2014, 00:08

Hmmmmmm.
rasa, ruchi, abhiruchi, aahaara.. are all words that apply to both experiences. Ok, he may not like to mess around with the canteen. That's OK. No problem.
But this fantasy does not need his approval!

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 28 Dec 2014, 02:05

proven recipes will not be used in cooking - Hindustani and Carnatic cooking fusion will rule

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 28 Dec 2014, 08:08

I have seen this Walk the Talk already once. The person who walks TMK has no Idea about his Music except that he was intrigued by TMK' s persona. He throws a few lines to substantiate " yes, this is some music form I have heard about". And , later , he goes on to admit blatantly that he does not know anything about the music and tries to ask clumsily some technical questions.

I think rsachi did a quick typo and I had to reread it to understand that it was in his enthusiasm

I would not have minded if TMK had actually made no bones about the walker's bald head and his musical ignoramus.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 28 Dec 2014, 09:36

Sir,
I meant what I wrote.
Merriam Webster:-
make no bones : to be straightforward, unhesitating, or sure <makes no bones about the seriousness of the matter>

The interview is not interesting for the quality of questions, but for the tone of the answers. The walk has a celebrity swagger all through. Such an interview would be normally considered a poor showing by the man interviewed.
Link:
Walk The Talk with TM Krishna: http://youtu.be/bx0JW13yoic

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 28 Dec 2014, 10:01

Rsachi sir,,

I was not correcting your English and I am no stickler for it. To me, language is merely a tool for communication which I always have problem with.

It was perfect sentence but I missed the drift. I thought TMK started to criticize the man's baldness.

I am totally with you . TMKs complex persona aside , the interviewer was clumsy in his questions. It was like " I don't know anything, please help yourself with both questions and answers". At some point he even pretended to enjoy having no idea what he

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 28 Dec 2014, 16:43

I am amazed to find that I just might have an actual answer to this question!

I did not attend his Parthasarithy Swamy Sabbha concert this morning, but went there to meet people who did, and we ate in the canteen. Was it the TMK influence that resulted in carrot and beans in the pyassum?

Somebody will say, no, their great grandmother did that, but it was a surprise to us and new to my wife too.

But, whether it is tradition, canteen sampradya, or not, the question is, did it work? The answer is... Yes it did

)

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 28 Dec 2014, 17:44

Nick,
For your kind information neither carrots nor beans are native to India. So they are verboten in payasam traditionally.
But both have a sweetness quotient especially the variety during this season

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Dec 2014, 00:06

I can stretch it far and may see carrots in payasam but beans? I do not know but Nick, you tasted it, so I will go with your assessment until I get to taste it myself!

Btw, TMK is no match to the level and intensity of experimentation in shuffling ingredients and formats by uber- enthusiastic homemakers and then posting pictures of them in Pinterest! Quinoa vegetarian burger is the last one I saw. The picture looked great

( invoking Danammal's sarcasm, 'sAppAtta photo eduthu pAkkarangaLAmE?' - ('I hear they look at photos of food?')

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 29 Dec 2014, 00:24

Ok, spare me for saying this, but I was there at that concert today morning. It was an incredible experience. Every item got the same treatment as would a main number, which made the order irrelevant. Following the Paras Thillana, the Harikambhoji item had a beautiful but short alapana. Then that alapana of Thodi which was incredibly gamaka heavy (mainly mandara sthayi) -- gamaka variations that normally can't be explored at higher tempos. The main item was a varnam which was handled with the same treatment as a Dikshitar masterpiece (I later came to know it was composed by Ramaswamy Dikshitar). If it weren't for the lyrics, I would have guessed it was a varnam at all! Indeed I was sure only after hearing the charanam and chittaswaras. The neraval was incredibly moving and RKSK was holding back his tears in his replies and it included a brief Tani. That was followed by RKSK playing varali followed by an alapana of Shankarabharanam and Akshaya Linga Vibho. The swaras were at a leisurely tempo that allowed a new dimension in their presentation, one that's missed out in explosive speeds. I enjoyed the Tani by Rajna Swaminathan and BS Purushottaman and that mohra and the korvai concluding it. The concert ended with a composition in Yamuna kalyani that ended with the rhythm totally backing off and allowing the melody to end the concert by "freezing time", deep and meditative.

I only realized today that CM manodharma had that much potential or how refreshing the same thillana can sound when rendered and interpreted differently. But this experience has left me thinking quite a bit ...

This approach to a concert is how CM used to be before the kutcheri pattern and gramaphone records came into vogue -- what was different though was the absence of a 5 hour RTP (praise anyone who can even sit or stand for that long

, how in the world did they even do that in those days ??!). Far from actually being an innovation, this is something really retro, that predates "tradition" as is accepted today (a tradition that was also an innovation at one point and which was at the time criticized for turning CM composition heavy).

Now I'm someone who has heard all types of concerts from those consisting of only tukkadas to ones like these -- some of it was familiar, some unfamiliar, some I liked after exposure and there are still things like heavy opera vibrato which I can't adjust to (and many I know can't adjust to CM as such). But that's art -- all about paradigms and subjective experiences and multiple dimensions. To make one (very valid, popular and innovative and time tested) paradigm into a doctrine of sorts such that any other approach is akin to a blasphemy is IMHO, rather childish. I could be panned for saying this, but when I look at it, yesterdays' revelation ... is today's religion ... which could (and in some cases it does) become tomorrow's racket -- at the root of it is artistic direct experience becoming further progressively transformed into doctrinal thinking. Again blind rebellion to me, is childish (or teenage-ish

). A true artist knows history and has the maturity due to direct experience to take one's own stand. I'm not speaking for anyone or against anyone, it's purely my own take (being the geeky, yet increasingly moved and mellowed rasika I am).

Now why all this rant, one that might put me in hot water? Well, this is all that crossed my mind in today's concert, and I can't say I've ever been in a concert that's made me think this much before. Not all these thoughts were due to musical reasons (some of them come because of what I've personally seen in religions, cultures and philosophies), but it's connected nevertheless for purely personal reasons. Coming from an orthodox background, I used to entertain strong notions myself as a teenager, but somewhere along the way, thanks to this music we call CM and many other experiences outside music, I've been increasingly looking at things less as an intellectual rationalist and more as an artist (maybe it's hearing tons of music for 25 years, reading philosophy, becoming more introspective or just growing up

). Anyway I've heard people saying and writing various things about all these changes to the concert pattern and I decided to go and find out for myself to know how I would experience it.

I enjoyed it immensely. Discovered new dimensions. Maybe it's just my age.

. But I couldn't care in the experience. I would like to stay inspired as a student of music by that experience.

Phew!

PS : And only a couple of days ago I was at Abishek's at NGS, which to me felt like a perpetual explosion all the way to the end. There's another flavour. I choose my pick, my own way.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 29 Dec 2014, 00:53

Srinath, thank you for that view. It was very refreshing to read. And I for one agree with your sentiments...and lovely to see that another one of our US-born and raised artists doing well in their chosen line of work (I'm referring to young Rajna, whose late mother used to be a member of this forum, and whom I've heard live).
Would be wonderful to have Aishwarya, Aishu, and Rajna team up....a concert of the children of the forum, if you will! Hope Cienu and Vinod are listening!
I have heard Rajna and Aishu team up before.

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 29 Dec 2014, 03:29

criticism of Shri TMK has become the invented tradition of the day ..

If we follow only his music criticism will fade in to oblivion..

Just hear this one..

T M Krishna-Mathe Malayadhwaja ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOEJjHPeXBA

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 29 Dec 2014, 03:33

Srinath,
I have heard TMK live and experienced similar feelings of joy.. You can see my reports in the forum elsewhere.

The key words in your beautiful writing are: aesthetics. dimensions. Retro.

The words that won't go far are: rebel. challenge. why have any format? Etc.

aaaaabbbbb · Post by **aaaaabbbbb** » 29 Dec 2014, 08:27

*Was it the TMK influence that resulted in carrot and beans in the pAyasam?*

Can it be *BhAShAnga payasam*?

Sure, it will be followed by many more new and novel combinations,

like *onion halwa* and *pakODA pAyasam.*

*****************

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 29 Dec 2014, 08:49

I would just say -- the concert pattern as such -- there's nothing wrong with it. The criticism that CM is more about compositions (but only in comparison to HM) is also a subjective one. Art isn't about right or wrong at this point anymore. But it was conceived with a particular purpose when the days of the 4-5 hour RTP were numbered and shorter compositions turned popular with the gramaphone's arrival. But seriously some of the hate I've had to hear for the Ragam Tanam Varnam for e.g. was shocking.

@ vk, maybe it could be, "What is this place where people go to "see" food?"

. Oh and speaking of carrots, beans, potatoes and tomatoes, there are some places out there where they are never allowed in cooking because they are "non-Indian". Does the attitude ring a familiar bell?

Onion halwa will only be a true novelty when someone actually makes a successful recipe that tastes good.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 29 Dec 2014, 09:25

Ladies and gentlemen, my family were served capsicum halwa at the Windsor Manor 2 days ago and my grand daughter says it was yummy.
No the chef was not called TMK, but I won't rule out some butterfly effect.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 29 Dec 2014, 09:28

How about payasam or kanji with chia seeds? Very nutritious!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 29 Dec 2014, 21:02

Srinath, You are entitled to enjoy and praise the concert that you attended, and I certainly didn't mean to mock it. I was not there, but the last TMK concert that I attended also impressed me enormously. The overflowing sounds, as I waited for my friends (none other than AIshwaryia and Vinod), sounded good to me. Vinod can vouch for the veg --- it was he who realised what it was, and confirmed it with the catering staff.

A little mockery can be done for a light heart. it does not have to be vicious. We can mock tradition (spare me for saying so

) and we can mock anti-tradition. Sure, there are those who have serious words to say too, but there is room for a light heart.

And if beans and carrots are not native to India, and therefore verbotten --- what of chilli?

By the way, having taken only tea (albeit gallons of it) at the MA canteen, I think this was my one-and-only December Sabbha meal.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 29 Dec 2014, 21:28

Yeah, I think I shouldn't have used this light thread to write something serious... but hey it got me thinking. Go to a concert, think some, rant some more

, discover more of the subtle connections between CM sabha canteens and the experience of CM music. This year it was TMK. But last year I couldn't get a single ticket for Abhishek's MA concert, but with the help of a friend, ordered enough on the plate (a ticket's worth) and ate slowly enough till the last strain of a breathtaking "Maate" from the canteen speakers heralded that the house had just been brought down.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Dec 2014, 00:22

There is a show called 'Restaurant Startup' on CNBC where two teams of Chef Entrepreneurs make a pitch to investors to start a restaurant. Two of my interests combined into a show. Very cool! (on food my interest is in motivating others to make new things!!)

This particular episode was between the two teams 'Kraken Congee' and 'Ramy's Falafel Fusion'. Kraken Congee team's idea is to take a fairly common rice based Asian food and make it mainstream in the U.S. The Falafel Fusion is about substituting Fava beans for the usual Chickpeas in the Falafel.
I figured Congee is some common food in Japan or China. Fava beans? No idea.

Later I found out that Congee is our rice kanji and the Fava beans is our avara kottai.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicia_faba) .

This kanji based Kraken Congee is a Seattle Pop-Up restaurant and our members from there can give it a try (mostly non-veg). They had some good ideas for kanji based dinner entrees (really, and charge $13 for it). We can adapt them to our tastes. http://www.krakencongee.com/#about

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 30 Dec 2014, 07:38

You can have any number of menus you want to have and may have have fun in the lighter vein. But it is most disgusting
every time TMK's name is being brought in in such posts

kindly do not link your lighter moments at an Artist's cost. TMK is an artist of stature liked by scores of rasikas..

Do not try to make a laughing stock of him...by naming the thread that he be in charge of a canteen. Why should he be?
Most detestable that one can choose..

If you like his concert, attend to it..If you do not attend he loses nothing....It will be infinite less one...If you like his writings... read it... If you do not like it leave it..He propounds his views and he has a right to hold it..Me and you have no right to make a fun of it or mock at it..
Let us be responsible rasikas also...He can make any number of experiments as he likes which we may may not be to our liking..
As disliking is our right, it is his right to experiment ..

I have heard an raga elaboration while singing a varnam which is usually rendered to act as warm-up...

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 30 Dec 2014, 08:39

To all those, starting with Sri Venkatakailasam, who are offended, my sincere apologies. As I have said elsewhere, I am second to none in enjoying Krishna's "southern summer" of music.

By the way Krishna says in that Walk the Talk interview that singing Varnam as a warm-up is a stupid idea and a waste of time. He says, if you want to warm up, sing the Varnam in your home before the concert.

I think I gave the YT link to that interview.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 30 Dec 2014, 10:15

vk,
IMHO, your annoyance is not justified. TMK is just not 'any' musician - he wants to be special - so be it. When he goes about articulating his opinions about various aspects of CM - with little reverence to traditional concepts - there is bound to be opinions about him too. There is no need to defend him - the offensive was started by him and he has to be prepared for the response.
Btw, the interviewer of Walk the Talk - Sekhar Gupta is a clueless person about music. Therefore, TMK should have been more circumspect when giving interview to such a person. I do not want to say he was bragging - that is what it amounts to.

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 30 Dec 2014, 10:31

Shri Govindan..

" little reverence to traditional concepts"

It is amusing that you have forgotten for once that we are in the 21st century..where traditions have no relevance...

Any way, opinions can be about what he has told and not to mock and make fun by providing him a posting at the canteen..

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 30 Dec 2014, 10:39

Srinath... Think I will memorize your post and repeat it to myself silently next time I happen to be at one of these concerts. May help me tolerate it

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 30 Dec 2014, 11:56

"Little relevance to tradition", while a valid complaint, has been an ongoing one for at least a millenia now and probably goes all the way back -- the complaint has a point of course. I'm at this point wondering if the Vedic people were put in a time machine, they would be aghast at our music no longer being aligned to 22 shrutis anymore. Most recently lighter ragas being elaborated was a complaint. Before that was new ragas. At one point brighas and a degree and a modern haircut was considered un-traditional (We're looking at you, GNB). And before that women on stage. Before that was the whole controversy over Tamil songs. Before that was the very idea of a kutcheri format and lighter pieces. And before that was the violin - the western rebel that dared to challenge the veena. And before THAT might have been Tyagaraja composing simpler krithis and Dikshitar setting sanskrit songs to nursery rhyme tunes (or simply the fact that they composed their own music). Before that the TANPURA might have been criticized. Probably the first wooden mridangam was criticized for not being made of clay. Maybe before that Purandaradasa for making swara exercises in mayamalava gowla. Long before that Chaitanya was criticized for introducing hari nama sankirtanam. And before that probably Jayadeva or Annamacharya or even the Azhwars for their divine love songs. The gamaka may have been considered a ridiculous idea when it came along (Hypothetical music critic -- "What is this ridiculous idea of a note that can't stay in one place and sounds like some old man moaning ?") Maybe long long ago before it all began, choosing sa re ga ma pa da ni was also criticized as other syllables were available (at least one 'u' - kara could have also been considered). Where does the list begin or end?

Studying the history and evolution and purposes of various forms of art and music suggests to me that the only real tradition in art (and society) is evolution! Indeed it appears we can very accurately learn all we need to know about how CM evolved simply by looking at everything that has been complained about it for the last 1000 or so years.

I remember reading an article (can't retrieve it alas!) about a history of complaints made right from the 10th century onwards that (western) classical music was in danger for all the usual reasons, including losing the audience.

And then there's this gold -- http://proto-knowledge.blogspot.in/2010 ... today.html -- youth complaints are likely the oldest in the humanity book !

@Rsachi & @NickH Future complaints may include the first English RTP

or Japanese javali

and a Spanish krithi taking up the main number.

leading to the start of a Japanese isai sangam. In the meantime the sabha canteens will promptly respond by presenting chinese, spanish and japanese dishes too. Rasikas of the distant future might find themselves having to put up with frozen space food from the ISS sangeetha sabha canteen while complaining that mars podcast has frustrating 10 minute delay problems due to the finite speed of light while violinists complain that their bowing is affected by the zero gravity -- all subject to whether or not an orbital season ticket will sell for less than $1 million. The speed of light will also ensure that skype lessons cannot be practically possible anywhere beyond the moon.

My stomach hurts.

And none of this should be interpreted as meaning that our complaints do not have a point either.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 30 Dec 2014, 12:14

Around 1200 BC, in the Iron Age, men invented a form of cultural entertainment called Rag'em Tan'em Pall'a'wee.
Basically the men worked iron frame dolls of various shapes and sizes. The women used to stuff them up with rags. Then the dolls would be covered with a hide and tanned. Finally they would load them into a bullock cart and cover the dolls with a pall cloth with only a wee bit seen. People would have to identify the dolls from what little they saw. It was a wonderful game and they celebrated a month-long festival in December of Rag'em Tan'em Pall'a'wee.

There were hot debates started by a young man who called the tradition bogus.
Tan'em could stand on its own and didn't need to be sandwiched.
One could do a Rag'em and completely render a different Tan'em.
He also challenged the idea of the bullock cart and said the items should be placed under water and one should play the game of bubbles.
And much fun was had by all.
He even participated in a famous show called Stroll the Droll.

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 30 Dec 2014, 12:55

"Day after day, someone somewhere discusses the state of classical music, typically with a degree of concern about its long-term survivability. This has been going on for ages, of course, but it has generated something of a cottage industry in recent years ... ..."

http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainme ... tml#page=1

ramamantra · Post by **ramamantra** » 30 Dec 2014, 12:56

vgovindan wrote: TMK is just not 'any' musician - he wants to be special - so be it. When he goes about articulating his opinions about various aspects of CM - with little reverence to traditional concepts - there is bound to be opinions about him too. There is no need to defend him - the offensive was started by him and he has to be prepared for the response.

Exactly the way I felt too. He is after all a public persona who goes so low as to talk of his sex appeal etc., so what's wrong in a little fun at his expense, while he has loads of them at the audience expense and sensibilities. btw, what is IMHO?

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 30 Dec 2014, 12:58

Sir, IMHO, IMHO stands for in my humble opinion.

kvjayan · Post by **kvjayan** » 30 Dec 2014, 14:42

"If you want to warm up, sing the Varnam in your home before the concert." Perhaps after warming up, one can also finish the concert at home and just visit the sabha to relax and greet the accompanists.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 30 Dec 2014, 17:13

vk,
As in dharma - 'sanAtana' and 'yuga', there are two concepts - sanAtana and yuga in music too. I have pointed this out in the context of 'soulful' and soul-less music in a parallel thread. The soulful music is the traditional concept I have in mind; the syllabification - as propounded by TMK makes music soul-less - a simple intellectual wah-wah and titillation. A musician singing soul-less music per se - voice culture being one such, and another having a compulsive reason for singing so, are two different things. May be, TMK still holds on to traditional concept in his concerts - probably because he is his own prisoner of tradition - his 'school' or 'sampradAya' or what HM musicians call 'gharAna'. Or may be he does not want to lose audience - if this is true, he is simply hypocritical. Be that as it may, it is very painful that the very purpose of music - communication - seems to have been lost sight of now. Not that, only kRti singing is communicative - even RTP is indeed very communicative if and only if the mood is established through suitable viruttams. Indeed, it is RTP which germinates the seed of rAga and kRti. For that one's heart should be brimming with love - love of music - nAdOpAsana. But sometimes it makes one weep in silence to hear voices asking such 'traditionalists' to go to kathA kAlalshEpa (religious discourse) and not to concerts. Isn't music a religion by itself? At least that is what great exponents of music of yore thought - hence the coinage 'nAdOpAsana'. Is it an illusion or a mirage?

A cry in wilderness!

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 30 Dec 2014, 20:27

Two ideas, tradition and 21st century, and evolution, stirred my mind. Here we are talking of a continuing musical tradition that has not altered peremptorily at the dawn of the 21st century. Evolution is gradual and organic as I understand, and it is silent. No one announces an evolution with all the fanfare and evolution is not involution, not a jumble. Evolution does not set the clock back and does not revert to an earlier form dramatically. Innovation is of the nature and essence of art and has been going on.
The music of the singer has been top notch and no one questions that. Has it improved because of the lack of structure?
Has he got the right to offend the belief systems of others as he claimed in Anvesha? (Or, as he seems to have done about those that start a concert with a varnam?)
He deserves harsh criticism not for being a maverick, but for being insensitive, for being arrogant, he ends any debate something like ‘I know, you don’t know’.
There are certainly others whose music is delightful and it is not as though he is Einstein of CM, but for whom there would have been a death knell to CM.
Of course my points are non-musical.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 30 Dec 2014, 22:58

The development of legs, or of things to see with like the ones we now call eyes, might be so gradual as to completely defeat any kind of announcement or hoo-haa, but we use the word in a rather current context, more akin to, say, the development of the wheel, followed by stream power, the combustion engine, nuclear power, etc. Those developments happened in a very short period of time, and have been accompanied by lots of braving, arguments, etc, etc.

I wish we had the thanks button. I have enjoyed the last several posts very much

ramamantra · Post by **ramamantra** » 31 Dec 2014, 08:17

kvchellappa wrote: He deserves harsh criticism not for being a maverick, but for being insensitive, for being arrogant, he ends any debate something like ‘I know, you don’t know’.

Yeah, he hits out at basic sensibilities of the audience. Tradition is too strong and misused word here. I'd go with sensibilities. Music lovers have a sense of beginning, climax and end which is in tune with nature. They also have a sense of proportion, time and space. Like the stock market where ultimately investors and not market operators determine the direction, so also music where rasikas/devout listeners just know what fits and what doesn't, not musicians (who live in a world of their own, most of the time).

All sorts of experiments and innovation also finally abide by nature, the flow of things in life and finally form what people follow as tradition. What does not abide in nature gets thrown out, not by individual egos but by collective sensibilities. That's simply the law of nature. Such experiments/developments (now part of tradition) too have evolved by braving opposition, arguments, etc. I'm not sure if the Kutcheri paddati brought out by Ariyakudi hadn't faced any opposition. Was it accepted just like that? No records of opposition may exist as those days people didn't believe in writing/recording events.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 31 Dec 2014, 08:23

Thanks Nick. I did realise that 'evolution' might have outgrown its purely metaphorical meaning like 'goal' etc., but in music a genre does not change abruptly, I thought.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 31 Dec 2014, 12:53

I think SrikanthK's brilliant account of grumbling through the ages covers that well. Some things change gradually, some maybe more abruptly, but the test is whether or not they stick. I suspect that the gradual changes have a better chance, because they are accepted bit by bit. Accepted, here, does not mean necessarily good, of course. Not all change is good!

There is an English-weather saying: soon foretold, soon over. That is possibly also true of some of the abrupt-change attempts in music.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 31 Dec 2014, 18:51

Reading the posts, is TMK is being viewed as Bala Krishna, Gopikrishna, pandava krishna, doota krishna and gita krishna? All pervading and engaging the minds!
Tradition is ' a body and works of excellence'. Sampradaya is the gift or wealth handed down. Classical Music, Carnatic Music has twin goals of Idealism and materialism, like Hindu Religion- a way of life. Idealism demands music to achieve the state of being in SAT-reality perception; CHIT-stillness of the sense of mind in equanimity and contentment; AANANDA-Bliss of sense of mind in peace, self in unity with universal self. Materialism demands the art of living. Art of music demands excellence of original creativity and re creativity. Excellence is in the experience of the pleasure for the first time and its potentiality and possibilities for its recall pleasure. It results in Chitta-Intellectual satisfaction, the ultimate in pure conscious. This state of mind is attained by Manas-a sense of mind being in imagination and creativity, in continuum; Ahamkara- a sense of mind of being with individuation or egocentric;Budhi- a discursive and analytic sense of mind. Manas is predominantly focused on conscious-external; Ahamkara on conscious-internal; Budhi on conscious-alternating between conscious-external and internal. With saadhana/efforts, conscious-pure.
TMK is a traditionalist, in the making. TMK has inherited the sampradaya and also sharing his sampada. TMK, exceptionally talented, trained, practitioner of great merits. TMK set himself on the search of truth, as an 'art' musician, after achieving the support of rasikas, popularity and resultant adulation over two decades as a performing musician. TMK has realized that in the past, he was intelligently serving the 'settled minds' with yearning for the recall pleasure, constantly and perpetually. TMK, in freedom from the past, determined to serve the 'un settled minds' to experience the live moments of great pleasure, uncritical, unbiased,open and in freedom from the past by sharing his insights and discovery of beauty, beauty of every aspect of this greatest of arts, Carnatic Music, be it a raaga, a taana, a niraval, a kriti, a varna etc, independently, not being in relationship and in order with others in a performance. TMK treats each and every aspect, with dedication and reverence. TMK desires collaboration and contribution from the artists, being together in a performance on joint efforts in creativity and experience of beauty. TMK also desires rasikas to creatively and with sensitivity to experience the beauty. Let the focus not be on the individual whims and fancies, character and expressions of oral and written, but focus on the values in his music, as a performer. If the values are higher and appreciable resulting in experience of pleasure, go along with him, in his pursuit of excellence and truth. If values are not higher and there is no experience of pleasure, just ignore his performance(s) and TMK, as a favorite musician. Rasikas have choice of many great maestros and maestros performing, conforming to the sampradaya systems, if TMK is not offering the experience and pleasure expected.

munirao2001

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 31 Dec 2014, 22:46

The fact that a humor thread led to such excellent discussions about TMK shows he definitely has achieved one thing. Mindshare. For good or bad, love or hate.

Good points there, Ramamantra.

There seems to be a consensus that the market (rasikas) will eventually decide on what sticks. I think there is some amount of truth in it.

Consider these related aspects:

1) A lot of times the public does not know what they will like, until they hear it. It is true that the market decides and the 'companies' need to keep producing new things and see if there is demand. Audience survey based initiatives produce the blandest of output, so don't ask them. They just don't know. Neither are the so called 'seasoned rasikas'. In fact the general public is better that they will be honest that they do not know.

2) So the few musicians who have the guts to go in a path that their mind and heart takes them are important for the system. There will always be resistance for such things. Calling such efforts 'cheap publicity stunts' is nonsense since it is actually the opposite. They are 'costly ruinous foolhardiness' . That is why we do not see a lot of people venture into such things.

3) Carrying on the 'evolutionary' argument, we need 'mutations' and see if they find a niche and a survival advantage. Mutations typically take hold when the environment changes. In CM the environmental changes can come from demographic changes and competition from other species, old and new etc. The environmental changes that led to the Ariyakudi mutation to have the survival advantage have been well documented.

Speaking for myself, in its current form, TMK's raga only 'offerings' sound unsatisfactory. It does not take hold for me. On the other hand, Ragam, thanam, Varnam and Ragam, thanam and thillana etc are weighty stuff. And I hope they stick. In this so-called Ariyakudi format, Varnams suffered the most. Glad there are attempts to put it back on the high pedestal it deserves.

4) But one thing that the current TMK distractors have to be mindful of is, while their criticisms serve a great purpose in this evolutionary system, having given control to the rasikas thus, they can not call them 'suckers' for attending TMK concerts in droves. That is just whining that they did not get their way. One has to grin and bear the possibility that something you do not like may become mainstream ( like this 'alapana only' thing for me in its current form )

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 01 Jan 2015, 10:44

TMK is on an extended ego trip. One day, I hope the train will de-rail.

Let him do what he wants with the cutcheri format. But what gives him the right to dictate to organisers how they should handle the audience by demanding first-come-first-seated when somebody may be a season ticket holder at the Sabha for 40 years? Wouldn't that person be the first comer?

I am tired of him trying to jerk people around. The NRI idiots love his antics. Please take him out of India and keep him wherever you live.

This season, I didn't see any reason to attend a single one of his concerts.

Around February, he will be singing to a largely empty hall at Asthika Samajam, Alwarpet. I think I will buy the most expensive ticket (Rs 50), sit in the front row and make a dramatic exit when he opens his mouth to sing.

If enough of you have sufficient self-esteem to ignore this person completely, he may return to his senses. He needs to realise that insulting the audience is not the best way to retain an audience.

ramamantra · Post by **ramamantra** » 01 Jan 2015, 13:44

harimau, really enjoyed reading this post of yours. Straight from the heart... disgust on his arrogance and foolishness of the NRIs coupled with your plans of giving it back (dramatic exit and all) - changed my bitter mood to

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Jan 2015, 00:36

The NRI idiots love his antics. Please take him out of India and keep him wherever you live.

Wow!

A bit bitter and whiny, aren't we? One such 'idiot' who in your mind will be less of an idiot is the one who gave vote of thanks at one of his U.S. Concerts. She took a mild dig at TMK 'I hope you come back and finish that RTP'.

I guess idiots of which domicile is his fan base will be known by your Asthika Samajam prediction.

I remember hearing about this season ticket holder problem, especially the plight of the infirm. Do all sabhas with significant season ticket holders kowtow to his demands? The right response is for a Sabha to refuse to hold his concerts if they really want to stand by their members.

May be they can negotiate a socialistic answer: Separate line for the infirm, season ticket holder or not and they will be let in first. It is a good tactical move actually. If TMK refuses even that, then it is HIS PR problem.

devan · Post by **devan** » 02 Jan 2015, 06:49

NRI idiots.you have hit the nail on the head.this nri.....include mostly women.

Sivaramakrishnan · Post by **Sivaramakrishnan** » 02 Jan 2015, 07:26

Take it easy, folks, let's enjoy the typical Coffee served in a TMK canteen.

Coffee 'dekation', milk, water and sugar will be served separately but with intervals.
So you have to eat the sugar first, drink the 'degree dekation' next, and have the milk mixed with hot water finally.

You had coffee, however.

pattamaa · Post by **pattamaa** » 02 Jan 2015, 07:37

If you have coffee ingredients in different order and different proportions it may be harmful, and might become poison

that can't be termed as coffee

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 02 Jan 2015, 12:23

pattamaa wrote: ... coffee ingredients in different order and different proportions ...

When I make my tea, I follow the following order in adding ingredients to the pan: sugar, spice, tea, milk and water.

There is a simple reason behind my inflexible tradition. I use the same spoon. I do not mind if a little sugar gets into the spice jar, or if a little spice gets into the tea jar --- but I do not want, for example, the sugar contaminated with either tea or spice.

If I had anyone to pass on this tradition to, I would do so inflexibly and with great discipline, extracting vows that they would do the same with following generations. I would hope to be quoted in interviews with my great-grandchildren. They would say that they are so grateful that I had established the tradition, and passed it on to the grandparents and the parents. They would also point out the importance of practising the method at least three or four times a day. Simply having the knowledge is useless: it must be practised. And the tea must be drunk and enjoyed.

They would point out our family's firm insistence that, until such basic disciplines of life are mastered, there is no point in even considering the order of ingredients in a ragam-tanam-pallavi. When it has been mastered, the youngster will understand that it is an inviolable tradition --- but they will feel free to experiment with the order of the concerts, as the only thing that will be spoilt by that is others' expectations.