T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recording

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 26 Jul 2010, 17:11

Accepted .
And poor Indian recording labels ... Never had the talent to even sift through a huge base of outstanding performers / performances and find winning combinations , for albums.
Lost out on the likes of Parasala, TMT , Kapalagam , RK Srikantan , SRJ , Brindamuktha , Emani , because they would not beg for attention, perhaps ?
Lost out on them , in their prime .
The neglect of these and other great masters is just short of criminal . Goes only to prove that the rasikas who recorded were indeed merit based recorders .And had an idea of what posterity would need.

Just imagine . Organisations like National Geographic would send teams with dollars in their pockets and a camera .And give them all the freedom to capture for posterity.And just see what they have achieved
Can we hope for a similar initiative in the recording Industry ?
And here we have Organisations trying to close doors tigher and tighter , making it more and more exclusive.
God bless all those Indian southies who went to the US and brought about this mp3 revolution over the web.
Indian Music has been recorded at its best . So what if there are a few grumbling voices here and there today . Voices which do not trust their own ability to produce something spectacular on a given day.Thereby stunning themselves.

I see that I have broken my rule of one last post.
Amen.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 26 Jul 2010, 19:32

mankuthimma - Amen to that.
You so eloquently articulated the points. If it were not for that small group of ardent devotees of this art form who took great pains in the past, we wouldn't today be enjoying most of the divine music that's come our way from years gone by. It's the bounden duty of every serious rasika to take full advantage of the technological advancements to record today's music for future generations. (please invest in a good quality recorder!)

But in doing this, let's shun those celebrities who mostty deliver mediocre fare and are money hungry, and focus on those with high level of vidwat but don't get their due in the CM world. These are the Vardhanis, Manda Sudharanis, Bangalore Shankars, et al of this world that money-minded recording companies won't even give a second look.

Even if others don't take up this sacred duty, you can bet this one rasika will do it with passion. And in this, I know I am traveling on the path laid out by the likes of Cool-ji.

To quote Swami Vivekananda: "Awake, arise, stop not till the goal is reached!"

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 26 Jul 2010, 20:09

I wish to point out that certain individuals who shall remain nameless have actually been giving their personal collections of especially the masters of the Golden Age to the great enterpreanurs who have produced many good recordings of memorable concerts of yesteryear......Actually my personal disappointment is that their economics precludes coming out with complete recordings of WHOLE CONCERTS with the limitations of CD'S as opposed to DVD'S which results in EDITING& in some instances omitting part of what was actual concerts, songs, alapanas etc. While various attempts have been made & ideas are constantly being proposed like many things ( the entire group is very enthusiastic) their economic clout is not yet powerful enough to overcome this barrier......VKV

kssr · Post by **kssr** » 27 Jul 2010, 13:37

In spite of all the "Saabams" (curses) from our forum members on the TMK -VS duo, TMK has 12 concerts in July alone, immediately after returning from his Australia tour. There are huge crowds at each venue. VS has very few and also thin attendances. Obviously people who are liked by rasikas continue to be liked irrespective of their idiosyncracies and odd behaviour. People whose music is so-so do not attract audiences. Eccentric behaviour alone is not adequate to either attract or repel rasikas.

We can only wish that artists whose music is loved, can also behave well. Bad comments and reactions with regard to recording is just one facet of their general bad behaviour as a person.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 27 Jul 2010, 14:20

why not propose a get together with the duo , exchange pleasantries , have a mini concert - may be over lunch or dinner , take photographs and be good friends forever.one has to be as old as me or gobilalitha to know how we are wasting precious times of our lives fighting over these issues.i can bring a special gift for the occasion.

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 27 Jul 2010, 16:41

An interesting sidebar story--more than 70 years old--regarding the "old timers" attitude towards recording.As told by Semmangudi mama to my father:

It seems in the early thirties or late twenties(whenever the gramophone record companies came into being) HMV wanted to have a record of the Great Violinist Tiruchi Malaikotai Govindaswamy Pillai(for the sake of younger forumites he was the Guru of Papa Venkatramaiah and at that time after the demise of Tirukkodikaval krishna Iyer earlier,he was the Uncrowned King in Violin).
He was extremely reluctant--Money was not an issue at all--the great maestro had put in great eforts to preserve the Thygaraja legacy thro the sponsorship of the Tiruvaiyaru Uthsavam in the early part of the twentieth century. Anyway after great coaxing by his admirers etc he relented. The recording was made and the HMV people went to his house with the Master record(to be duplicated after the old man approved!!). They played the record for him. At the end the HMV folks were excited and showed their enthusiasm. Pilaival asked a pointed question--s this the master record or are there any more copies? Thinking that he was asking for copies(complementary--the Great Man in his lifetime has never sought a penny!) the HMV people told him that this is only the Master and that we will make several hundreds of copies. The Great man asked to see the record to have a "feel" for himself. The Master record was handed over and he just broke it into two!! The HMV people were absolutely flabbergasted and asked WHY? It seems Pillaival replied"This is not my best effort-there are some flaws in it which many would not notice--but in future there would be more knowledegeable people who would detect and then pass a loose comment--Is that all that Govindaswamy Pilai could produce for all the vaunted stories that have been written and spoken about me and that is something of a legacy that I do not relish!.

Now younger forumites may have different views on the same--how he may have deprived posterity of the greatness of his music--afterall there are more positive people on earth than detractors. He felt that way and was more sensitive about his art and felt it ough to be presented in the most perfect manner.

I mentioned this to Lalgudi Sir years ago when the subject of recordings came--he was lamenting that several of his accompaniment records were made and secretly distributed amongst rasikas without addressing the issue of compensation(royaties etcs) the fairness etc-even when the tapes came there was not much of commercial recordings being released(way before the CD's arrived). I said to him if Yourself and Mani Iyer(Palghat) who was also staunchly opposed to recordings had succeeded in stopping this do you think the present and future generations (long after you have stopped playing accompaniment) would believe that such geniuses existed.

He agreed and everytime I visited him in the last 20 years or so at his house he will play one of his old recordings given by some friends and ask his son GJR to sit and listen pointing out the nuances in the vocalist swaraprasthras or PMI's deft anticipation etc. I would "needle" him saying if you and PMI had prevailed would GJR have had the benefit of such a glorious lesson from the past--He would give a hearty laugh and perhaps I may have influenced his thinking with the Malaikottai Govindaswamy Pillai incident!!
Tut!! Tut!! What ego--this is my ONLY chance to gain a footnote in the Musical history!!!

kssr · Post by **kssr** » 27 Jul 2010, 18:18

Seeing the earlier story, I am reminded of an experience I personally had decades back. SSI was performing to a small gathering in Karaikudi, a CECRI event in a pandal and we were sitting on the floor (myself an young boy then, quite excited). It was just the very beginning of the tape recorder era and we were giving envious glances towards our neighbour who started recording the concert.

Pat came SSI's reprimand. "Athellaam vendaam. Thirumba thirumba kettoottu Semmangudi pulikkaradu nnu solveL" (Don't do it. You will listen repeatedly and say Semmangudi is sour)!! At the end of the day, no one can stop the march of technology.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 27 Jul 2010, 21:46

kssr wrote:In spite of all the "Saabams" (curses) from our forum members on the TMK -VS duo, TMK has 12 concerts in July alone, immediately after returning from his Australia tour. There are huge crowds at each venue. VS has very few and also thin attendances. Obviously people who are liked by rasikas continue to be liked irrespective of their idiosyncracies and odd behaviour. People whose music is so-so do not attract audiences. Eccentric behaviour alone is not adequate to either attract or repel rasikas.

We can only wish that artists whose music is loved, can also behave well. Bad comments and reactions with regard to recording is just one facet of their general bad behaviour as a person.

None of us us have suggested that TMK should stop singing! Just that he should be more careful about what he writes!

Not all concerts are perfect, and even for the great artists it is too much to expect the absolute best of which they are capable in even the majority of their concerts. It is perfectly understandable for an artist not to wish to promulgate a program that they do not feel was a good performance, but if we do not expect perfection, neither should they. Surely it is a foolish kind of vanity to destroy a concert because of some flaws. How many flawless diamonds are there?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Jul 2010, 21:56

>"Athellaam vendaam. Thirumba thirumba kettoottu Semmangudi pulikkaradu nnu solveL" (Don't do it. You will listen repeatedly and say Semmangudi is sour)!!

See, that is a valid concern... Absence ( or scarcity ) makes the heart grow fonder ....

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 28 Jul 2010, 01:20

vk:
That is my point too. Only when something is not there or in limited quantity you wish for it more. If you are up to your ears (the pun is not intended---I mean it literally here) in somebody's music you get tired of it and look elsewhere. The same thing goes for making CM popular like film music--be available to the masses. Yes, even if plenty, film music has its fans. But then .....

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 28 Jul 2010, 01:51

Yep. Let's pray these artistes also sell very few of their CDs. This way people won't get an overdose of their music!

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 28 Jul 2010, 01:55

mankuthimma wrote:why not propose a get together with the duo , exchange pleasantries , have a mini concert -
...
i can bring a special gift for the occasion.

You mean a good quality recorder?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Jul 2010, 05:45

For the record, what SSI said made sense to me in the context in which it was said and for that time period. In fact a case can be made that if you have quite a wide variety of music, then the idea of "repeated listening to the same recording" does not exist since you have that variety to listen to ( even by the same artist )

Personally, what I find is, for my drive time music, I can listen to the same custom CD repeatedly 3 or 4 times, I then go to a few other such CDs and do the same thing. When I come back to the top of the rotation, the experience is definitely fresher and different. But that does not stop me from listening to the same CD a few times in a sequence. My current rotation is a couple of custom CDs of MSS and MLV and mixed CDs of different artists including Kalyanaraman, NCV etc.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 28 Jul 2010, 07:19

NCV at the end of the list, Vasanthakokilam ?

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 28 Jul 2010, 18:11

Ramasubramanian M.K wrote:An interesting sidebar story--more than 70 years old--regarding the "old timers" attitude towards recording.As told by Semmangudi mama to my father:
...

One thing I have come across again and again when it comes to musicians of many genres (not just CM but also some western pop and rock) and many generations (especially yesteryear) -- they seem to think that these "bootleggers" who record off-the-air are stealing money, i.e. taking something without compensation. Here are the relevant questions that they rarely think about:

1. If it comes to holding back compensation, how much money do the musicians think they will get? i.e. what compensation do they think they are missing out on?
2. Do they think that the bootleggers are going to sell those tapes for money? Have they ever encountered tapes or CDs being sold on the market that are recordings off the air (i.e. not taped off the mic system by the hosts)? Are sales of commercial releases going to reduce because of these recordings?
3. Is their any benefit at all of "secret" tapes circulating? More people listening who could not make it to the concert for whatever reason, people in other cities and towns listening, etc? The circle of listeners actually increasing because of the increased opportunity to listen to the artist?
4. Do they think that the concert opportunities would be somehow reduced because of these recordings?
5. Does it endear them to any part of their rasikas to be curmudgeonly about their concert recordings?

-Then Paanan

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 28 Jul 2010, 22:29

Then paanan,
I am with you.
Forgetting the overwhelming frustration (fear?) that their listeners are robbing them of their income, if they just pause and think on these lines:
Why do some listeners want to take back with them the music they just heard? Because they like what they hear! Supposing the performers happened to hear a conversation like this: A: have you recorded this? B: Nah! This music is not worth listening to another time. Once is more than enough. Will they be happy?
They can view the audience less as pirates and more like music lovers.
As you point out, CM fans are scattered all over the globe and these are the ones who would attend concerts fairly regularly if they were in Chennai or other cities.When they come to India, they spend a pretty penny on CDs and on high price tickets during the season, standing in lines for more than an hour in the morning and then wait again to be ushered into some of the halls in the evening. There are others who come to Chennai from distant places in India. These are the folks who spread the word about the merit of their music and keep them in focus. While Chennai folks appreciate them too, some may take them for granted.
Would the musicians say no to press photographers when they take pictures of them and thereby miss the chance of being seen by the readers of the newspaper the next morning? Rasikas serve exactly the same purpose as newspapers. They keep them in focus if their music is good and is growing. To tick off the rasikas is like killing the golden goose.
The musicians bring us the old treasure of music. Sensitive rasikas are their nourishers and are not to be taken lightly. Even slightly indifferent rasikas have to be taken into account. They fill up the halls

We all care about the financial well being of those who bring us the music we love. The old days of the starving artistes should not prevail. We want them to live well without having to worry about money. Heaven forbid! Yet, just as in any profession you are expected to give your best, the musicians are too. They can concentrate on their gift of a profession and try to give their best to their listeners. Otherwise, they wouldn't be any different from the whiners in any office who say: I work like a dog, I get a pittance and my company is robbing me of my talent and toil!
Long live CM musicians and may they grow in their music without having to think about where the money would come from for maintaining a healthy and comfortable home for their families!
Long live rasikas too!

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 30 Jul 2010, 03:00

arasi wrote:Then paanan,
I am with you.
Forgetting the overwhelming frustration (fear?) that their listeners are robbing them of their income, if they just pause and think on these lines:
Why do some listeners want to take back with them the music they just heard? Because they like what they hear! Supposing the performers happened to hear a conversation like this: A: have you recorded this? B: Nah! This music is not worth listening to another time. Once is more than enough. Will they be happy?
They can view the audience less as pirates and more like music lovers.
...

Arasi,

This attitude from earlier generations of CMusicians was more understandable -- they eked out a precarious livelihood especially when they were young. In previous decades, even well-established artists had to wait out a long time before they were financially comfortable, by which time they were well into middle age. Also they were unsure about technology back then. It is much harder to understand this attitude from present-day musicians, at least from those who seem to be making out decently.

As you say, we all want the tribe of musicians to thrive and multiply. But, as is often the case, we cannot all agree on the road to take even if we agree on the destination.

-Then Paanan

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 30 Jul 2010, 03:19

Vijay Siva is performing at Ragasudha Hall on 25 August.

I hope I will be free, that day, to demonstrate my continuing appreciation of his music.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 26 Aug 2010, 18:38

I did not make it to that concert, but just for practical reasons, not because of any issue with Vijay Shiva.

However, I am miffed that, in the current YACM 25th Anniversary series of excellent concerts, he is not permitting his program to be webcast within India.

Why the discrimination? Does he think people outside of India won't record it*? I wouldn't have done anyway.

Somehow, I wouldn't feel as bad about it if he had simply not wanted to be webcast at all.

I don't know why this excellent artist, who stands out for lack of drama and fuss onstage, is putting up this issues offstage. It is a shame.

*I hope the whole thing ends up on YouTube

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 28 Aug 2010, 12:55

kssr wrote: At the end of the day, no one can stop the march of technology.

Doesn't mean we should just give up!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 28 Aug 2010, 14:00

No one has stopped the march of technology.

From brittle 78rpm records to vinyl LPs; from huge reels of tape to cassettes; from songs on hard disks to tiny MP3 players --- and all the in-between stages I missed, not to mention those that never caught on, technology marches on. Concerts still happen though!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 29 Aug 2010, 00:46

Nick H wrote:No one has stopped the march of technology.

Doesn't mean we should just give up!

carnaticlaw · Post by **carnaticlaw** » 29 Aug 2010, 02:38

where is sramesh nowadays?

saigeetha karthik · Post by **saigeetha karthik** » 29 Aug 2010, 20:53

if we buy a company- cd say, for 200 rupees, it has 10 to 12 compositions. (it may differ) but at the same time duplicate cd's are also available in the market for 60 - 70 rupees where there are so many compositions. and sometimes people tend to buy one and give copies to the dear ones also. no debate whether it is right or wrong. this is unavoidable. i remember in my teens, if anybody has a cassette of songs which i liked, i used to take a copy for me. comparitively, which would be more damaging, concert-recording or copying from a cd? those who are against concert-recording, are they not aware of the availability of duplicates in market? how good would be the quality of 'concert-recording' by individuals? i feel it simply gives a pleasure to those who record, that's all. how many times they would listen to it, that is also a question. it need not become a big issue, but if it disturbs the performer, in that aspect it can be avoided.
I also feel that if the rates of the original cd's reduced, the sales would be more because of affordability, though this idea may not be related to the topic discussed here.

saigeetha karthik · Post by **saigeetha karthik** » 29 Aug 2010, 21:30

music oru aathmarthamana vishayam, paadradu yellaralayum mudiyathu. bhagavan kudukaradu kural, god's gift. evallam gifted people. anthakalathla thengai moodi kutcheri nu solluva. antha alavuku varumanam illada irunda. yethanayo vidwan lam financially romba weaka irundirka. yen, shri thyagayyar yepdi vazhndar. avaroda krithi ellam mauasu urugi bhagavan mela vanda bakthila vandadu. antha mathirithan yella composersm irundiruka. inniki avala vechu thane namba paadarom. yenaku yenna thonradunna, ava paramparaila irukarava yarkanum namba royalty kuduthurukomo? kudukatham mudiyuma, velai mathikamudiyada pokishangal. inniku recognized singers llam comparitively in good position thane. music and medicine idellam professionla serkalama? adukum mela ulla vishayangal. Kurai onrum illai maraimoorthi kanna nu irukapadadaa? enna naa solradu? thi. janakiramanoda "mogha muzh" la oru paatu vadyar varuvar, nalla characterisation adu. padathula kuda romba nanna vandadhu.

(Note from the moderator: saigeetha karthik, please provide a translation for the benefit of our non-tamil speaking members )

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 29 Aug 2010, 23:19

>>music and medicine idellam professionla serkalama?<<
Translation: Can we characterize music and medicine as professions?

YES, positively, in these times. Way back medicine was also dispensed free or "from each according to his ability" basis. Music was sustained by wealthy benevolent landlords.

Now doctors have incorporated themselves. They have business advisors, accountants, and insurance companies to work with. They ask for the money before they even start looking at you (in India) or ask for your insurance card (both in India and elsewhere). Likewise, the musician negotiates the remuneration before he/she agrees to perform. So, yes, they are businesses and are subject to the same rules as other businesses--such as grocery, restaurants, transportation, and others.

carnaticlaw · Post by **carnaticlaw** » 30 Aug 2010, 02:38

Way back medicine was also dispensed free or "from each according to his ability" basis.

MK,

Obama is as such facing a lot with it

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 23 May 2012, 07:52

I wonder how the new Copyright bill affects classical music?
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 401993.cms

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 23 May 2012, 08:47

I wonder how the new Copyright bill affects classical music?

Answer lies here
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/a ... 446658.ece

And look at this beautiful bit !!!
Quote
The copy which promised abundance but then threatens to eat into the ..... seems to parallel the larger movement of the word copy, whose etymological roots in copia (“plenty”) moves in English from an original sense of “abundance” to the more recent sense of derivativeness. It passes, thereby, from a sense of plenty to a sense of scarcity.
Unquote
The choice for CM ARTISTS , is between abundance and scarcity , hundreds of years down the road.

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 06 Jan 2015, 19:47

Ragam thanam varnam.....Shri TM Krishna at MA 2012...

This clip was lying in my files for long unattended..

I requested Shri TM K for permission to share as I am sure many would not have listened to it: but comments were flowing...

With out any hesitation He permitted me
I am forwarding it to the moderator by mail to satisfy himself...

TMK 003- RTV - Bhairavi - Pallavi....

http://mfi.re/listen/2sk25ln4rs8skph/TM ... allavi.mp3

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 06 Jan 2015, 21:57

V'kailasam, acknowledged

raghukumar · Post by **raghukumar** » 07 Jan 2015, 02:42

It seems nobody has answered this question: what is the actual LAW when it comes to an artist asking a audience member to stop recording? Does the artist have that right or not?

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 07 Jan 2015, 06:08

While going on the road say with your family, some one take snaps..What will you do?

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 07 Jan 2015, 10:14

venkatakailasam wrote:While going on the road say with your family, some one take snaps..What will you do?

It is not uncommon in Chennai for guys to take pictures with their cell phones of attractive girls in the beach and other public places.

A friend caught a guy who took a photo of his daughter and threatened to call the police. The guy promptly erased the photo.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 07 Jan 2015, 10:29

vk,
Your counter question seems to be erroneous. Taking your photo by a wayfarer is infringement of your privacy. But concert is a public function where the artist comes with full knowledge of what to expect. He can at best ask for IPR and then he is being paid for the concert - isn't it? Isn't payment a compensation for IPR? How the vocal signer only gets IPR, every artist - including accompanyists have IPR; the sabha has IPR. The lyricist has IPR; the composer has IPR. How the main artist can arrogate to himself all the IPR of the concert?

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 07 Jan 2015, 10:32

This is less of a legal and technology issue and more of a moral and ethical issue.
Musicians give us through their music their life blood. They live and die by their music. It is a different matter that some of them have parallel careers in writing, speaking and acting.
Recording secretly their music without their permission is ethically wrong and causes a chasm between the listener and musician.
I am glad Sri. Kailasam wrote and obtained permission from TMK.
Thanks.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 07 Jan 2015, 11:07

Ethically it is wrong ( unfortunately). There are ubiquitous devices to record as much those many cracking programs for protected softwares. This is tantamount to that. Rec = cracking, I mean .

The problem is when we place the musicians in a different pedestal and accord them with a special status. If a musician has his music as one of his means of survival , which clearly is these days, he would mind getting recorded slyly. Musicians are as much a profession like anything else when it involved public staging and if he sees that as a long time career. If the same musician is performing free of cost and does not want to make a living out of it and does singing truly for his pleasure , then it may be unethical of him to stop someone recording his music. In such a case he would want his music to be more and recorded so it spreads musical knowledge in people. Wearing their shoes , it is not easy to allow someone recording if you have a long term plan to pursue as a singer , of course SANS remuneration.

Trinities would not have minded definitely.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Jan 2015, 16:20

The law is simple, and I think that it must have been covered in the previous pages of this and other threads. It can be a condition of admittance that recording is prohibited, but also every performance belongs to the performer (or the organisation presenting it, depending on the performer's contract).

I don't think there is any comparison with photographing people on the street or the beach (even musicians!) which is not illegal at all unless it crosses the line into the sordid. Unwanted attention may well lead to a punch in the face: the punch would probably be less legal than the pic, even though the morality may be on the side of the puncher.

sridhar_ranga · Post by **sridhar_ranga** » 07 Jan 2015, 18:01

does the sabha or a press photographer have rights to photograph the audience?

what can I do if have an objection, other than cover my face with a shawl? i may not want to be caught nodding appreciatively at the tup-tup dugu-dugu alapana, or worse still, a monkey song or a fat ghost song! I mean whoever on this forum would like to end up as the tiger's next meal?

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 07 Jan 2015, 19:43

"I don't think there is any comparison with photographing people on the street "

Nick...can I differ with you...??

Taking unauthorized snaps at will is to abuse the vulnerability...of privacy..if you go around taking photos of people without their knowledge, you are being a creep. ...

What is needed is not law – we have law enough already – but a consensus to take the notion of privacy in a public place seriously..

Shri vgovindan..

As Nick says every performance belongs to the performer (or the organisation presenting it, depending on the performer's contract). ..
Also, it is more of a moral and ethical issue.

Why one does not want to approach the performer and take his permission for recording?? and do things in a clandestine manner?

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 07 Jan 2015, 20:12

I am not in favour of clandestine recording - that is totally unethical. However, I am not at all in agreement with the statement "every performance belongs to performer..." CM concert is not a Rock show where the lyrics and music belongs to the performer. Excepting for Manodharma aspects, every kRti, varnam, etc sung by the performers cannot be appropriated by the performers and also assuming that the 'performer' here means the complete ensemble and not the main singer only. This is the reason why accompanyists are totally neglected in so far as remuneration is concerned. In the absence of 'troupe' culture, CM accompanyists will always be at the mercy of main artists.

balakk · Post by **balakk** » 07 Jan 2015, 20:18

VK Sir, since we are stretching metaphors here, may I offer a counter metaphor? Suppose you visit a tourist attraction in some nice location, and you want to preserve the moment as photos/audios/videos. Would you prefer that you ask for permission? Does that feel unethical to you? Most tourist attractions in India have started fleecing customers for this as well

I'd say it's unethical for an artist to prevent how I enjoy/preserve the musical experience that I paid for. Public distribution of that is an entirely different matter - it has no relation to the act of recording. Asking permission for publicly redistributing it is perfectly fine; I don't see a problem with that at all.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 07 Jan 2015, 21:49

Photography and the law is a much talked about subject in Camera related web sites.
http://www.digitalcameraworld.com/2012/ ... ate-guide/

In the U.S., taking photographs that are plainly visible from public places is fine. Creepy, but Harimau's example is a legally protected use case

Don't know about India.

Anyway, the contexts of photography and a music concert are quite different.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 07 Jan 2015, 21:54

99% of those who record are sincere Carnatic Music fans and rasikas and stifling them will only hurt the artists. These fans are amateurs and the atmosphere of recording is completely polluted unlike a recording instrument professionally used by artists commercial organizations. They are making a mountain out of molehill. Give it freely and see how their officially recorded music sells.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 07 Jan 2015, 22:01

TMK has talked about it in his book ... the one thing that hurts an artiste when they give their life's effort to making that musical creation but only to see it taken away without so much as a word or a request. It would be better if it was all transparent and mutual. Again, back in the day when recordings were scarce the efforts of rasikas did a lot to preserve some REALLY valuable treasures of music (even by sneakily recording some artistes who did not like their recordings being heard in places they did not like). We have to give them credit for this. But today, it's rather the opposite problem in the information explosion age where there is too much info and with the exception of a global digital catastrophe, there really isn't a cause to fear about lost music. But that also creates the problem of some stupid algorithms that aren't letting us record our own bathroom music

Meanwhile I still have a huge bunch of cassettes at home that are desperately in need of being converted to Mp3 before they go extinct ... (While most of them have been bought over a couple of decades, I bought a couple of hundred or so from a now deceased rasika who spent 50 years buying the equivalent of a few rooms (!) worth of cassettes quite a few of which were unfortunately lost (!!) by him in some accidents

, but even then I have never found some of those recordings elsewhere! I was told by his family that he had a few thousand cassettes with him when he was alive -- talk about music preservation efforts!). To think that all those recordings would fit in about 400 GB which is just 40% of a typical laptop HDD today ... unimaginable.

Anyway, in the last couple of years I have taken a step towards buying more recordings and commercial releases of all current artists, downloading only those I feel are rare and not in commercial release (that too now I only choose artists who are long gone) -- that itself is a lot. Can't buy that much though, despite moving on from cassette to DVD and the like, the DVD packages are if anything, only bigger than ever and are in fact occupying more space than the cassettes used to do. Haven't explored paid internet downloads yet. Should see where I go from here. But yeah, nothing compares to the quality of a proper professional recording. Proactive effort to sustain the future of CM rather than being reactive about the present time is what I think should be the contribution of today's "i-age rasika".

PS : Besides, my old obsessive collector's tendency has faded somewhat now that I am able to make my own music, play my own swaras and all. But all one has to do to awaken the devil is to say the word "rare"...

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 07 Jan 2015, 22:14

I know people are in their right when they object to being photographed, even in public places and near monuments.

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 08 Jan 2015, 19:42

balak.... yes at certain places snaps are prohibited...Tourists who snap the Eiffel tower at night are breaking copyright laws

The purpose for which you take the snap is the deciding factor...
Here, many people indulge in clandestine recording...the purpose will not be known to the Artist..
Shri vkr..This particular clip...RTV by TMK is not commercially available...as I understand..

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 08 Jan 2015, 20:18

in another thread the copy right issue was discussed and many questions were raised about the claims by recording companies. However, in this thread there seems to be convergence of opinion that performers have complete right over the concert recording. In what way this is different from the claim of the companies? Isn't it a contradiction?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Jan 2015, 08:53

Not at all: it is the difference between rights in an original work, in the performance of a work, and in a particular reproduction or recording of a work. This has been explained lots of times.

I guess it is a little difficult to grasp that, unlike a car or a cooking pan, there is no one simple ownership of an object when it comes to an artistic work, but many different rights.

If you have ever bought an original picture, you own it, but you almost certainly do not (unless you have it in writing) own the copyright. However, even if the artist wants others to reproduce it, as owner of the object you can still say, "No, you may not enter my house and photograph this picture." That is how galleries control reproduction of objects which, like this music, have long since ceased to have any copyright: they control the access, and the terms on which they allow such access.

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 09 Jan 2015, 09:47

VK Sir, I wanted to hear the Varnam with Ragam and thanam. BUt in that clip, there are two Viribonis by TMK- One normal varnam and another with neraval and swarams. NO ragam or thanam. KIndly check up.