Ragam of Vallikanavan perai

bala · Post by **bala** » 08 Feb 2006, 08:25

Can anyone please tell me what is the ragam of "valli kanavan perai vazhi pokkan sonallum......"
thanks

kaumaaram · Post by **kaumaaram** » 08 Feb 2006, 08:51

There are many renditions. I would shout (supposedly sing) in Sindhu Bhairavi.

Kaumaaram

vrbadri · Post by **vrbadri** » 08 Feb 2006, 09:28

Bala,

I have heard it in a folkish version of Chenjurutti.

-vrbadri

bala · Post by **bala** » 08 Feb 2006, 10:23

Thanks vrbadri

Is Chenjurutti the same as Janjhuti?
For Janjhuti the ar and av are listed as:
Arohana: d2 S R2 G2 M1 P D2 N1 || dhi S Ri Gu Ma Pa Dhi Ni S
Avarohana: D2 P M1 G2 R2 S n1 d2 p d2 S || Dhi Pa Ma Gu Ri S ni dhi pa dhi S
Bhashanga: G1 in MGRSRGR

Is Janjhuti the same raag Aruna Sairam has used to sing valli kanavan.... ? Her singing of this song is divinely. I think in whatever ragam Aruna has sang the song it is the correct one.

kaumaaram · Post by **kaumaaram** » 08 Feb 2006, 10:49

Chenchurutti and Janjhuti are one and the same.

The song is rendered while performing Aarthi for Lord Shanmukha. It has been traditionally rendered in two ragas viz., Maund and Sindhu Bhairavi. The beginning of the song is Aiyundhu Karannukku Ilaya Arumuga Velavanai.... and ends with Valli Kanavan...

Thodudaya Sevian is a famous song on Lord Shiva that is rendered in Gambira Nattai (odhuvars and others use Gambira Nattai based upon what people call it as Pann). But BMK sings it in Sri Ragam. We cannot conclude that what BMK sings is correct.

Kaumaaram

Mahesh · Post by **Mahesh** » 08 Feb 2006, 17:00

DKP's rendition of the song is in Kavadichindhu.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 08 Feb 2006, 22:52

If the provenance of this song is considered, the story is that a police constable in Madras approached Smt. DKP after one of her concerts and asked her to sing it. The composition's authorship remains anonymous, but Smt. DKP tuned it and the rest is history...so, as far as 'authentic' versions, my vote would be for hers!
Mahesh,
When the sangeetham site was operational, we had a discussion on 'kAvadichindhus': I am not sure if we ever reached a consensus on what it was, but we are very sure that it does NOT represent a rAgam. Most people think that it referred to the beat/nadai. kAvadi chindhus can be sung in MANY rAgAs. DKP renders it as a kAvadi chindhu as many folk melodies on murugan are traditionally rendered. But, the kAvadi chindhu style is not restricted to songs on murugan: the traditional way of singing 'mAdu meikkum kannE' is also in the kAvadi chindhu style.
If there is anyone more knowledgeable on this, please explain.
Ravi

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 08 Feb 2006, 22:56

it was the policeman who composed this song!

Mahesh · Post by **Mahesh** » 08 Feb 2006, 23:11

When the sangeetham site was operational, we had a discussion on 'kAvadichindhus': I am not sure if we ever reached a consensus on what it was, but we are very sure that it does NOT represent a rAgam. Most people think that it referred to the beat/nadai. kAvadi chindhus can be sung in MANY rAgAs. DKP renders it as a kAvadi chindhu as many folk melodies on murugan are traditionally rendered. But, the kAvadi chindhu style is not restricted to songs on murugan: the traditional way of singing 'mAdu meikkum kannE' is also in the kAvadi chindhu style.
If there is anyone more knowledgeable on this, please explain.
Ravi

Yeah, it seems to lie in a different position. It's neither the traditional Tamil Panns nor the traditional carnatic ragams. Bizarre. One can say the same of Magudi. People say it's Punnagavarali, however listening to other songs I disagree. Magudi, Kavadi Chindhu belong to a different genre that has not been catogorised IMHO.

I add one more request on top of rshankar's call to people with more knowledge on this issue. Coolkarni sir, can you give us some sample of both [Magudi and Kavadi Chindhu] please? I once heard Ramani mama play Magudi [Aadu pambe ...] and it was *brilliant*. It was MSG on violin and UKS on the mridangam. Half way thro, he left MSG and UKS carry on where he switched on the Bansuri [biggger flute and lower pitch] and it was a delight. MSG was playing the higer pitch whilst mama went on a very very low pitch. UKS played as only he can, simply breath taking. Unfortunately our call for "Once More" were refused

Though he did oblige and played Venkatachanilayam on the Bansuri, which was nice!

meena · Post by **meena** » 09 Feb 2006, 00:41

cml
the policeman who went by the pen name subbaraya swamy from ambasamudram (sahvig had provided this info on bboard)
Some else there also provided more info on this constable, forgot to note it down

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 09 Feb 2006, 05:06

Meena,
I hope someone from Amutham Inc. is a member of this BB - one of their booklets calls the policeman annonymous (anAmikA)...
Ravi

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 09 Feb 2006, 05:16

anAmikA is a woman's name! and rightly as the folklore goes it was the wife of the policeman who composed the poem.
meena
I had the information from a guy from ambaasamudram!

kaumaaram · Post by **kaumaaram** » 11 Feb 2006, 11:21

Kunnakudi Vaidyanathan has played this song in his album Rainbow that contains the name of the composer:

"13.VALLI KANAVAN PERAI (Senchuruti - Adi - Kumaraswamy)"

From Sangeetham BB:

"I misattributed in my previous post. The pen name of the composer of the kiLikkani is subbarAya svAmi and he was a police constable from ambAsamudram."

"vaLLi kaNavan pERai" is part of the kiLikanni verses known to be composed by kOvai subri,pen name for a police constable from ambAsamudram. DKP & DKJ were the ones who popularized this piece."

"In the book parisu peTra tamizhisai pADalgaL-volume 1 in the Annamalai University series, there is a reference to vaLLi kaNavan (mAND rAgA) and the song is credited to Mariappa Svamigal......"

Confusion confounded! We must pick up the materials from Annamalai University to find out the real background.

But here is an interesting link that talks of Kavadi Chindu:

http://www.chennaionline.com/musicnew/t ... song15.asp

Kaumaaram

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 11 Feb 2006, 22:19

kaumaaram:
I think Kovai Subri is a different composer. He has published 8 volumes of songs on muruga titled "Muruga Ganam".

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 11 Feb 2006, 22:35

http://www.chennaionline.com/musicnew/t ... song15.asp
Kaumaaram

Sowmya has rendered this very delightfully in an album full of KCs. I am not 100% sure that the translation on this page is correct: for instance, 'vaNNa mayil murugEsan, kuravaLLi padam paNi nEsan' is transalated as 'I bow to vaLLI who is murugan's consort'. My take would be: 'I bow to murugan astride a colorful peacock, who is a slave to the charms of the gypsy, vaLLI'.
On a lighter note (purely a tongue-in-cheek moment), should we consider Annamalai Reddy the answer to the scores of Tamizh-speakers who composed in Telugu!
Ravi

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Feb 2006, 00:20

shankar
kuravaLLi padam paNi nEsan= kuTaththi aakiya vaLLi (yaaruDaya) paadaththai paNikiRaaLO antha priyamuDayavan
(He the darling, whose feet were prostrated by the tribal vaLLi)
This is grammatically correct (as in sanskrit where we have the standard vibhakti lOpa bahuvrIhi).

Annaamalai Reddiar was a great Tamizh scholar who was the inspiration for Bhaarathiyaar himself. Though Reddys are telugus there are (were) quite a few in TN who considered themselves out and out Tamils. All kaavadi chintus are in Tamil. I doubt whether there are any in the other SI languages. Most certainly not in sanskrit!

DrMrinalini · Post by **DrMrinalini** » 23 Aug 2006, 20:12

Isn't there a kavadi chindu piece describing the dance of Lord S'iva-not sure of the start but it comes in the 2nd line or so as -'..........paraman aaDiDum, thiru natanam........ '. Bombay sisters have sung this beautifully. Any more info?

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 01 Nov 2006, 07:41

vallikanavan perai has been sung by S G Kittappa in Mand. but it starts with 'Ingaranukkilaya Arumuga Velavanay...'

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 01 Nov 2006, 09:07

Chalanata,
Are we talking about the same 'vaLLikkaNavan peyarai' that was first sung by and popularized by DKP? AFAIK, she tuned the kAvaDi chindu and it has been sung unaltered since.

Ravi

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 01 Nov 2006, 10:57

i'm not sure. in SGK's it goes like this; 'valli kanavan perai vazhipokkan sonnalum ullam kuzhayuthdi;unum urguthadi'. it is very much a kilikanni and ends with 'kattukodipadarndha karuvur kaatukkulle vittu pirintharadi kiliye vedhanai thavirkamale' kilikkani otherwise is folk and it is possible that different versions are available. it is also possible that SGK's version may be the earlier version. scholar rasikas can clarify.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 01 Nov 2006, 18:29

Amudam Inc in one of their booklets have said that this was a recent composition from a policeman (I know he has been identified, but have misplaced his name) who asked to remain anonymous and wanted DKP to tune and sing it.

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 01 Nov 2006, 18:44

vaLLi-kaNavan (kAvaDicindu). rAgA: cenjuruTi.

P: vaLLik-kaNavan pErai vazhippOkkan shonnAlum uLLam kuzhaiyudaDI kiLiyE Unum urugudaDi
C1: engum niraindiruppOn eTTiyum eTTAdiruppOn kumkuma varNanaDI kiLiyE kumarap-perumAnaDI
2: mAlai vaDivElarukku vArishaiyAi nAn ezhudum Olaik-kIrukkAccudE kiLiyE uLLamum kirukkAccudE
3: kattuk-koDi paDarnda karuvuruk-kaTTukkuLLe viTTup-pirandAraDI ennai vElanennum pErOnaDi
4: kUDi kulAvi metta guhanODu vAzhndadellAm vEDikkai allavaDi kiLiyE vegu nALin dvandamaDi
5: mADu manai pOnAlenna makkaL shuTram pOnAlenna kOTi shempon pOnAlenna kiLiyE kurumkai pOdumaDi

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 01 Nov 2006, 20:07

you will have to include Subramanya Bharathi's 'Nenjil uramuminri nermai thramum inri...' in the list. that too is a kilikkanni.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 01 Nov 2006, 23:16

LakShmaN
The last line must be
'kuRu nakai pOdumaDi' (the gentle smile is enough!)

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 02 Nov 2006, 03:30

Thanks CML.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 02 Nov 2006, 05:44

engum niRaindiruppAn, eTTiyum eTTAdiruppAn--is how I remember it.
mAlai vaDivElavaRku (not vElaRku)
kAttuk koDi (wild vines)
viTTup pirindAraDI! (he left me!)

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 02 Nov 2006, 10:02

Sorry, kATTuk koDi (not kAttuk)

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 02 Nov 2006, 22:37

it is not kattukodi (wild vines) it is thick rope like creeper.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 03 Nov 2006, 03:59

koDi (vine) MEANS winding creeper. so kaTTu is not necessary. kATTUk koDi adds to the imagery of sylvan surroundings. Try to sing (I am sure you can sing:)) both ways and listen. Which is more free flowing? Then again, both words are correct in the context. We can take poetic licenses too like the poets in rendering, but they should mean something relevant and within the context. Please look at bhArathi's unnaiyE rati thread. Sometimes, not paying attention to the words and singing as the masters did (with their mistakes!) can get to mean something opposite! Take for instance, oruththi maganAip piRandu from tiruppAvai. oruththi maganAi oLiththu vaLara when sung as oliththu vaLara puts krishnA in danger! He had to be smuggled to gOkulA in the dark of night. Had he done the oliththal (made sounds and made his presence known!) instead of oLiththu vaLara (growing up in obscurity), the sense would change completely...

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 03 Nov 2006, 06:22

you are right; both are ok.

gdg · Post by **gdg** » 28 Nov 2006, 21:41

please find SGK's version in
http://www.esnips.com/web/mohangopalrat ... inessFiles
(and it is high time a seperate thread is started dedicated to SGK.)

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 28 Nov 2006, 23:49

Adityamohan,
That was a very poor recording, and did not sound even a tiny bit like a kAvaDi chindu to my ears.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Nov 2006, 07:09

The SGK version is a different vaLLi kaNavan song. The words do not match the one we are discussing ( though it is very hard to hear the words ).

gdg · Post by **gdg** » 29 Nov 2006, 08:10

rshankar,
i'm sorry about the poor recording. it would however not sound like kavadi chindu because in my perception kili kanni and kavadi chindu are different.
vasanthakokilam
there are many common verses in both the versions assuming that two different versions exist. it has already been pointed out that one version is sung in mand.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 29 Nov 2006, 08:56

There is only one version of the song: it is the one sung by DKP - the original version was given to her by the composer and he asked her to set it to music and sing it (check amudham inc CD - Bindumalini by Sudha Raghunathan for details) - DKP, Aruna Sayeeram, Sudha Raghunathan, and NC Vasanthakokilam all sing the same words..SGK's song is nowhere close...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Nov 2006, 09:42

mohan, see if you can transcribe the words as much as you can. From what I could hear, the only common thing is the pallavi refrain 'vaLLik-kaNavan pErai vazhippOkkan shonnAlum uLLam kuzhaiyudaDI kiLiyE Unum urugudaDi', rest of the charanam couplets are different ( except for the the kiLiyE which is common among all the songs in this genre ). Correct me if I am wrong.

Without digressing too much, does kiLi kanni refer only to the lyrical structure and related attributes or to the melody and rhythm as well? Asking because the SGK version does bring out a melody that is common with other rural folk songs and may be there is a separate name for such songs. If kiLi kanni is only about the lyrical structure, is there a common name for this folk melody?

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 29 Nov 2006, 11:10

Here are the lyrics I have:

pallavi
vaLLik-kaNavan pErai vazhippOkkan shonnAlum
uLLam kuzhaiyudaDI kiLiyE
Unum urugudaDi

caraNam 1
engum niraindiruppOn eTTiyum eTTAdiruppOn
kumkuma varNanaDI kiLiyE-
kumarap-perumAnaDI

caraNam 2
mAlai vaDivElarkku vArishaiyil nAn ezhudum
Olaik-kIrukkAccudE kiLiyE
uLLamum kirukkAchudE-1

caraNam 3
kaTTuk-koDi paDarnda karu, vuruk-kaTTukkuLLe
viTTup-pirandAraDI ennai
vElanennum pErOnaDi

meena · Post by **meena** » 29 Nov 2006, 11:21

here is the one posted on
http://www.karnatik.com/c2443.shtml

meena · Post by **meena** » 29 Nov 2006, 11:25

shankar

do u recall the police constable name?

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 29 Nov 2006, 17:17

I have forgotten, but CML may: I think it was mentioned on the erstwhile sangeetham BB.

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 29 Nov 2006, 18:10

There are a couple of more stanzas in the song. Here are the lyrics. The constable's name is Subbaraya swami from Ambasamudram.

vaLLi-kaNavan (kAvaDicindu). rAgA: cenjuruTi.

P: vaLLik-kaNavan pErai vazhippOkkan shonnAlum uLLam kuzhaiyudaDI kiLiyE Unum urugudaDi
C1: engum niraindiruppOn eTTiyum eTTAdiruppAn kumkuma varNanaDI kiLiyE kumarap-perumAnaDI
2: mAlai vaDivElavarkku vArishaiyAi nAn ezhudum Olaik-kIrukkAccudE kiLiyE uLLamum kirukkAccudE
3: kATTuk-koDi paDarnda karuvuruk-kaTTukkuLLe viTTup-pirandAraDI ennai vElanennum pErOnaDi
4: kUDi kulAvi metta guhanODu vAzhndadellAm vEDikkai allavaDi kiLiyE vegu nALin dvandamaDi
5: mADu manai pOnAlenna makkaL shuTram pOnAlenna kOTi shempon pOnAlenna kiLiyE kurunagai pOdumaDi

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 29 Nov 2006, 18:44

Lji,
c4: vEDikkai allapaDi, kiLiyE, vegu nALai bandhamaDI

dvandam will mean fight (dvandvam)...bandham is connection...

Ravi

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 29 Nov 2006, 18:44

And thanks for the composer's name.

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 29 Nov 2006, 21:28

Thanks rshankar.

gdg · Post by **gdg** » 29 Nov 2006, 21:44

vasanthakokilam
here is the verse;
Indhu karanukkilaya Arumaga Velavanai
Ennil pagandravanai kiliye
sera manam thonudhadi
Indhu vayathinile ariya paruvathile pinjile koodinendi kiliye
Piria manam illayadi
Valli kanavan perai vazhipokkan sonnalum
En ullam kuzhaiyuthadi kiliye
Unum urguthadi
Moham thavira yennai mundhi pidithizhuthu
Eka veli thanile kiliye
Ennai kalantharadi
Etta pazhamadiyo irakkatha thenadiyo
Mattila anandhame kiliye
En Malmarugan thantha sugam
Kannal madhura mozhi kattazhagar enkuravar
Enna podi pottanodi kiliye
inai priya thonavillai
kattu kodi padarntha karuvur kattukkulle
enai vittu pirintharadi kiliye
vedhanai thavirkamale
undal kirukka vaikkum ooril ulla kai charakku
kandal kirukka vaikkum kiliye
en kattazhagan peruruvu
kilikanni as the name itself suggests is a specific verse with meters of equal size ending with the word kiliye. it is folk and its beauty is meloncholy and simplicity of poetry. the other famous kanni is parabara kanni and both are accepted verses by scholars. Thayumanavar has written parabarakkanni verses ending with parabarame and it is generally used for philosophy.
with due regards to subbaraya swami - this kilikanni must have existed and must have been discovered by him. i take it with a pinch of salt the possibility of his having composed it. i'm also of the strong conviction that many more similar versions might have existed than these.
i also feel that mand is the more suited than others in moods of melancholy.

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 29 Nov 2006, 22:23

If my memory serves me right, some stanzas of this version were sung in the old tamil movie "srivaLLi".
Perhaps Arasi can recall more details.

kaumaaram · Post by **kaumaaram** » 30 Nov 2006, 12:34

Lakshman,

"Srivalli". Slightly digressing from the topic, I am informed that the first-ever tamil talkie was "Valli's Wedding" where a Mr CM Durai (he had worked in a post office!) acted. It appears that this song was rendered in that movie! May be Srivalli and Valli's Wedding are one and the same.

kaumaaram · Post by **kaumaaram** » 30 Nov 2006, 12:35

adityamohan wrote:i also feel that mand is the more suited than others in moods of melancholy.

I had earlier stated that the song used to rendered in Maund. The last stanza would be rendered in Sindhu Bhairavi. Agreeably, Maund appears most suitable.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Nov 2006, 13:59

Thanks very much adityamohan and others for the lyrics.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 30 Nov 2006, 17:07

I assume that Lji, Kaumaaram are referring to the song posted by Adityamohan, and not the kAvaDi chindu that started the thread - the one by Ambasamudram Subbaraya Swami.