A spot of bother with any song list / index

[SrinathK]

Being a guy who often memorizes (and occasionally notates) songs out of an audio recording (I would love to learn in person, but opportunities are tough when you are far away with little privacy), what do I think is the biggest problem I've had with indexes / reviews of Carnatic Music compositions :

Ans : Not a single one mentions the kalai and eduppu of the opening line.

Fortunately I can recognize the patterns of all the eduppus, and nadais other than chatushram rarely ever explore fractional eduppus (I can decode them too), so it's not a problem now. Even then, sometimes I have trouble and it takes work to figure it out. Often I need to refer to a video. It is a MAJOR problem in RTPs, since often the solution set of possible talas / eduppus / kalais can have many possibilities.

I'm currently working on making my own index of compositions I'm familiar with (also as a means to figure out just what all DO I have in my collections). I might have slipped at some spots accidentally labelling a pada varnam as a tana varnam or a devarnaama / daasar pada as a krithi, but I'm definitely making sure to mention the kalai and eduppu along with the Talam. Though sometimes I might think an eduppu is Deshaadi when it is actually a 2 kalai 3/4 Adi Talam -- and a Rupakam might turn out to be a Tisra Ekam, but in those rare cases I'll have to guess till I actually see the rendition with my eyes.

[vasanthakokilam]

Go for it. I am looking forward to your laya enabled list and exposition

[SrinathK]

As of now, I've got 41 varnams and 784 compositions of all other types in the list. It's still growing (and I've just struck gold in an unexplored part of my collection with a massive stash of Dikshitar compositions and live concerts) , but at this point I'm increasingly in completely unfamiliar territory. I got the idea from Carnatica's composition indexes.

One condition for any song to be up in my list is that I should be knowing at least a line of it or be able to recognize it when I hear it -- without which I can't accurately find it's tala. I'll also ask up here if I can't get the answer. I'm adding about 5 in that list everyday and I might slow down from this point as I'm no longer familiar with most of the newer entries.

[SrinathK]

At last! The 1000th entry !

Suffice to say it's very demanding even for me. I have to pick a composition, find a good recording of it, listen to it, then decipher the tala's eduppu and kalai (your reviews have been immensely useful ) and only then it goes to the list. Padams are by far the most difficult, and in many items I must see a video to be totally sure. And there're quite a lot of points where things have to be clarified and improved. But wow, the exercise has made me grow up a lot as a rasika!

[arasi]

Great!

When you are done with the masters, you are welcome to tackle my compositions

[SrinathK]

I will add anyone and everyone as long as I can hear / see it . It takes time as I'm hard pressed for time to juggle between work, studies and sleep Still I've decided I'll add 3-5 every day (more if I have a free day) and it will slowly build up over time.

When you are done with the masters

I'd rather pounce on a chance sooner than later. You see I spoke to my best friend about it and we agreed that my grandson will probably still be working at it when he's at my (late) grandfather's age.

[arasi]

If this old but contemporary composer needs to wait in the line as some old vidwans do for the SK, her great grandsons need to hand over the songs to your grandsons to work with them

[SrinathK]

Don't wait then....I have read about Suryaprakash sir having sung them. In fact my grandfather knew him well and he had sung at their place once and at my uncle's wedding. So any recording sources?

[arasi]

Will send you mail...

[SrinathK]

@arasi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxzzOh7GQsk

Pun Intended

[VK RAMAN]

It is awesome to read how a singer progresses in his/her skill to listen, learn and practice CM. So learning is not confined to only one on one or skype to skype.

[arasi]

Fun intended:
inRu varumO, nALaiyO?

Sorry, Srinath. Not just a senior 'moment' here but a much prolonged one. I had forgotten that I said I would send you mail Apologies...

Thanks for MMI's treat...

Will do...

[SrinathK]

Update : After a long hiatus (standard reasons may apply), I've started work on that list again and here's how far I've come -- yes, I've actually forced myself to listen to every item in that list...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2fuwlphenorgi ... t.jpg?dl=0

There are some points that stump me however such as :
a) The difference between a keertanam and a kriti -- where do you draw that line? Not to mention things like devarnamas or sankeertanams that have been tuned to CM. I'm not sure at times what to call them. That part can therefore get a bit arbitrary at times.

b) I made a big mistake in the beginning not using the Harvard Kyoto convention for the syllables. So about half the list needs to be fully re-edited to fix that... . Nevertheless I still don't use it exactly. I prefer not to use "I" where "ee" could be clearer since it looks identical to a small "l" most of the time. And I don't like to use a "c" for cha. I prefer "ch" for the normal syllable and "CH" for the aspirated version. Barring that deviation, everything is as per that convention now.

c) There is a separate list for varnams, inspired after mass looting on sangeethapriya yielded a much bigger pot than I ever imagined . However, it has also kind of made me aware of my vast ignorance in this area. I believe I've undone my own wicket when it comes to classifying varnams into various types... and finally I've given up. I believe that part of the list is all wrong.

d) I found that going by composer is the best way to list and exhaust a set of compositions (with the exception of varnams) -- I'd even suggest that apart from listening by artist or raga, to REALLY broaden your repertoire you must listen by composer. Right now I am (still) on Thyagaraja for the last 4 (FOUR!) months... am itching to get to Dikshitar and OVK.

e) At times I have mistaken a 1 kalai for a 2 kalai and vice versa... in fact not having videos or having seen the renditions live means there may be quite a few mistaken cases like that.

f) I realized there was a thing called viloma chApu...

g) Many songs classified as "tripuTa" or "jhampa" are really in mishra chApu and khanDa chApu respectively.

h) Reports of Ariyakudi's repertoire in Thodi are not exaggerated.

i) My Brinda Mukta collections have gone up to an all time high -- I never knew there were that many recordings out there.

j) There are some compositions in the sangeethapriya tribute pages that have the wrong recording for it.

I'll need expert help in the future as I believe that despite all the progress, there'll be tons of bugs to exterminate....

The experience has pushed me totally into unknown territory to the point where unknown has become the new normal. But the rewards are worth more than I fathomed. A great many thanks to karnatik.com, sahityam.net as well as @lakshman and @vgovindan for their incredible efforts.

[srikant1987]

Coming to pallavis, the ardhI also offers a useful cue.

[SrinathK]

The sheet would actually serve best as a very good database for known RTPs. But since RTP's can and do have multiple solutions and kalai possibilities, i am not trying to go that side. Also there are difficulties in Tiruppugazhs, since many of them are set to chanda patterns or very complicated cycles. In fact in rare compositions with very long tala cycle lengths it's all too easy not to realize it. As a rasika and a student there are serious limits to my understanding.

However, the most commonly used talas have come to a point where it's straightforward to pick up their underlying patterns in various eDuppus. Nevertheless some times there are surprises at times.

[RaviSri]

Many songs classified as "tripuTa" or "jhampa" are really in mishra chApu and khanDa chApu respectively.

Almost all songs listed as jampa and triputa have been changed to misra chapu, kanda chapu by musicians. For example srI mahA gaNapatiravatumAm (gauLa) is listed as triputa in SSP and that is how it was sung by the Dhanammal family and that is how I learnt it, to be sung in chauka kAlam. Similarly with srI vENugOpAla in kurunji which is sung in kanda chapu but which is actually jhampa. B-M sang in jhampa and I learnt t in jhampa. I wish some sensitive musician of the present would resurrect such pieces to the original talams.

My Brinda Mukta collections have gone up to an all time high -- I never knew there were that many recordings out there.

I know it is difficult but would you be able to give a list of songs/padams/javalis that you have of B-M. And if I realise that I don't have any or some of those would you be able to share?

[SrinathK]

@RaviSri, what a pity that we have lost so much of the old gold ... I know I am arguing from my modern perspective fueled in an age of "big data", but I think all is not yet lost. If you did learn these the old way, can I at least have YOUR recording of it?

Ok here you go -- here are the one's in my list first -- do excuse me if I have sometimes erred in the details.

425 kAsiki poyenne mukhAri mishra chApu (2/7 eDuppu) Kshetrayya padam
514 kuvalajAkshiro gauLipantu mishra chApu (1/7 eDuppu) Kshetrayya padam
594 ati neepai marulu Yamuna kalyANi Adi (Atheetha -1/2 eDuppu) Dharmapuri Subbaraayar jAvaLi
619 sakhi prAna ChenchuruTTi Adi (2 Kalai 1/2 eDuppu) Dharmapuri Subbaraayar jAvaLi
633 parulanna mATa KApi roopaka (1/2 eDuppu) Dharmapuri Subbaraayar jAvaLi
640 marubAri Khamas Adi (Atheetha -1/2 eDuppu) Tiruppanandal PaTTaabhiraamayya jAvaLi
837 cheli nEneTlu paras Adi (Atheetha -1 eDuppu) PaTTabhiramayya jAvaLi
867 samayamide rA rA nA sAmi behAg roopaka (1/2 eDuppu) Patnam Subramania Iyer jAvaLi
869 padari vAruguduru* kAmbhOji roopaka (2 Kalai)* Vaideeswarankoil Subbarama Iyer padam
894 rAma rAma prAna sakhi bhairavi Adi (2 Kalai 1 1/4 eDuppu) Kshetrayya padam
953 moratOpu chalada sahAna tisra TripuTa (2 1/2 eDuppu) Kshetrayya padam
955 mOsAmaya Ahiri mishra chApu (2/7 eDuppu) Kshetrayya padam
957 payyadA pai meede nAdanAmakriya tisra Triputa (1 1/2 eDuppu) Kshetrayya padam
994 aligitE Huseni mishra chApu (2/7 eDuppu) - Starts from anupallavi Kshetrayya padam
1003 entaTi kulukE kalyANi roopaka Dharmapuri Subbaraayar jAvaLi
1004 pari pOvalerA bilahari roopaka (1/2 eDuppu) PaTTabhiramayya padam

Next post I'll give the full list.

[SrinathK]

Here's the full list of only the padams and javalis ... <phew>

1) rAma rAma prAna sakhi - bhairavi
2) paripOvalara - bilahari
3) mEragadu rAmmannave (A: moratOpu) - sahAnA
4) parulanna mATa - kApi
5) mOsamAye gadavE - Ahiri
6) kuvalayAkshirO yeppaDi - gauLipantu
7) ayyayyO marapAyana (A : neyyamuna) - ghAnTa
8) vaDharaka pOvE (A: Adiyoka) - kAmbhOji
9) sAmi rAra - ragamalika
10) kasiki poyEne (A: osOsi) - mukhAri
11) AdinOmu phalamu (A : yAla padareme) - bEgaDa
12) E matalAdina (A: tAmarasAksha) - yadukula kAmbhOji
13) Emi mAyamu - kAmbhOji
14) ittanai tulambaramAi - dhanyAsi
15) marubAri tALanEnurA - khamAs
16) meragAdu lEchi - aThANA
17) nArImaNI kainadirA - khamAs
18) nee mAtale - pUrvikalyAni
19) paTTakurA - Anandabhairavi
20) payyadA - nAdanAmakriyA
21) sakhi prAna - chechuruTTi
22) smarasundarAnguni - paras
23) vagalADi bodhana laku - behAg
24) vElavarE umai tEDi - bhairavi
25) yAr pOi solluvAr - thODi
26) yArukahilum bhayama - bEgaDa
27) ninnu jUDa - punnAgavarALi
28) pusalaramu - thODi
29) telisenu rA - sAvErI
30) ennATi - thODi
31) mariyAda teliyakanE - suruTTi
32) entaTi kuluke - kalyANi
33) tiruvOTTriyur thyAgarAjan - aThANA
34) idaiviDa innum - sAvErI
35) etthaikanDu - kalyANi
36) Ela rADAyanE - bhairavi
37) valapudAcha - varALi
38) vaddaNTEnE - pantuvarALi
39) gaddari vagalama - kalyANi
40) samayamidE rArA - behAg
41) inta mOham EmirA (A : sunta sEpu dAni) - shankarAbharanam
42) iNTiki rAniccEnA (A : goNTukADu muvvagOpAla) - suruTTi
43) muTTa vaddurA - sAvErI
44) vAnipondu cAlu vaddanE - kAnaDA

[vasanthakokilam]

Many songs classified as "tripuTa" or "jhampa" are really in mishra chApu and khanDa chApu respectively.

Almost all songs listed as jampa and triputa have been changed to misra chapu, kanda chapu by musicians. For example srI mahA gaNapatiravatumAm (gauLa) is listed as triputa in SSP and that is how it was sung by the Dhanammal family and that is how I learnt it, to be sung in chauka kAlam. Similarly with srI vENugOpAla in kurunji which is sung in kanda chapu but which is actually jhampa. B-M sang in jhampa and I learnt t in jhampa. I wish some sensitive musician of the present would resurrect such pieces to the original talams.

Is it a change in how externally the talam is kept, or the way it is sung has been changed due to the change in tala? Has the tempo of the song changed?

If the issue is one of changes in tempo ( and nothing else ), I am curious why people will necessarily sing the chapus in a faster tempo. If a 10 beat cycle is sung in Kanda Chapu, then it should just take two cycles of Kanda Chapu for one cycle of Misra Jampa

More significantly, the internal structure of KC and MC are drastically different from Misra Jampa and Tisra Triputa. When people change the talams like that, do they care about such internal structure or they care about only the cycle count. I have the same question about a more mainstream and much more common conversion of Rupaka to a 3 beat cycle. What happened to the 2 + 4 internal structure of Rupaka in those cases?

[SrinathK]

@vk, In many cases the tune is changed altogether, often to a more diluted version. In a few cases, it involves singing at a faster tempo which makes it possible to turn a Triputa into a Mishra Chaapu.

[shankarank]

A process called tyAgarajification or for the mathematically inclined: tyAgaraja transform!

[RaviSri]

The tempo has also been changed to a fast one. the 'srImahA gaNpati' (gauLa) in triputa is a chauka kala song as as sung by the Dhanammal school and as learnt by me. The raga bhava of gaula comes through beautifully in the chauka kala version very much like it does in the other gaula song of Dikshitar, "tyAgarAja pAlayAshumAm".

SrinathK, thanks a lot, I have all the padams and javalis listed by you. I would like to have a list of the kritis you have, sung by B-M. I'll record "srI mahAgaNapati" (gauLa). Just give me some time. In those days, about 25 years ago I had to literally beg people to lend me their recordings of B-M. I remember being exhausted many times because of the dodging by the so-called "elite club" which had those recordings. After such experiences I decided that I would give away freely whatever I had of B-M to whoever wanted it. Permit me to boast that most of the recordings available of B-M on the net were given off by me to various people who then perhaps uploaded on to the music sites. Today everything is available at the click of a button. Of course despite making me slog and sweat I have to thank the two or three people who gave me the recordings. Just in case I might not have any song of theirs is the reason I am asking you for the list of songs you have.

Many songs of Dikshitar in Rupaka tala are sung in the 2+4 mode by the Dhanammal family, e.g., tyAgarAja yOga vaibhavam, srI subramaNyAya namastE, mAnasa guruguha etc. In certain padams too they sang in that mode, e.g., 'padari varugudu' (kAmbhoji). When I learnt the navavarana kritis from a lady she taught me the tOdi, shankarAbharaNam, punnAgavarALi and Ahiri songs in the 2+4 mode only. The original talas ensured the songs were rendered in the correct tempo and not speeded up.

[RaviSri]

A process called tyAgarajification or for the mathematically inclined: tyAgaraja transform!

Not quite. Many of Thyagaraja's songs have also been changed especially from 2 kaLai to one kaLai, e.g., 'mAmava satatam' (jaganmOhini), and thus speeded up.

[SrinathK]

It will take me a while to list the krithis RaviSri !. All my collections are from Youtube, Sangeethapriya, venkatakailasam's blog and a few albums. Given what you say, much more might have been out there that might have not been shared. Everything I have of them is of an exceedingly high order and it has revealed another dimension in CM I wasn't aware of much till then.

[RaviSri]

Please take your time. No problem.

Brindamma never allowed anyone to record. This was because their guru Naina Pillai refused to be recorded. When B-M gave any concert, many people used to bring their recorders and place them before the mics. Brindamma on seeing the recorders, used to get annoyed and would insist that unless all the recorders were removed the concert would not begin. What little we have now is mostly recorded from the All India Radio and recordings of a few sabhas that surreptitiously recorded their concerts. Mukthamma however never had any objections to recording her concerts after she started singing alone.

Another aside. Their grandmother Veena Dhanammal also refused to record. t was Keertanacharya C.R.Srinivasa Iyengar who persuaded her to record and thus we have a few 78 RPM recordings of Dhanammal.

exceedingly high order and it has revealed another dimension in CM I wasn't aware of much till then.

Yes indeed, quite true.

[vasanthakokilam]

" it has revealed another dimension in CM"

Either here or in another thread, it will be illuminating to expand on this observation.

[SrinathK]

That we may talk about some day in the musicians pages.

[SrinathK]

Update : #1450... After many months, I can see the light at the end of the Thyagaraja tunnel.

Next up : Dikshitar... then maybe LGJ or OVK.

[SrinathK]

@arasi After 8 long months, Mt. Thyagaraja has finally been scaled! But only once....

Now it is the turn of Mt. Dikshitar... this could take another 6 months, then the trinity mountains will have been covered. It took a year and a half just to LISTEN to 1500 compositions AT LEAST once. This is way more mentally taxing than just listening for relaxation. But weirdly after some time, it becomes habitual to just listen to a few new numbers + some old ones every other day. Or as my friends put it, it becomes habitual to be crazy...

If it's so hard just to be a rasika and listen, I can't imagine how some musicians have struggled to master such huge repertoires.

[shankarank]

Between the renditions of SrI mAtRbhUtam here:

http://www.sangeethamshare.org/murthy/K ... kta-MA1964 - at No 3

and this:

http://www.sangeethamshare.org/asokan/CARNATIC/063-SSI/ at item no 7 - SSI with fire and fury - what Brindamma does there ( with rAgam) is being replaced by what PMI does here sensing Dikhsitars intervals with his hands.

So did SSI learn this from them and sped it up? He is a Yajur vEdin ( with more adherents) whereas Brindamma is a sAma vEdin (with less adherents) - even if you say sAma is more exalted!

The avarta length of pallavi is different - the way hRdi cintayE - sugandhi kuntaLAmbA is positioned in both versions.

[SrinathK]

1500! Right now I just finished checkpoint "A" along the climb up Mt. Dikshitar.

After I finished Thyagaraja once, I was so mentally done that I simply didn't want to listen to any more unfamiliar numbers for more than a month. To add to my effort, sometimes there are more than 1 version of the same krithi, which counts as a separate number in my book.

I think I have officially lost sight of the sanity lines at this point. I need to on one hand keep listening frequently to the old numbers as the forgetting curve can be steep (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgetting_curve), and then I have the new ones to listen to as well. This is obviously nearly impossible... with the result that I have forgotten my spots on Mt. Thyagaraja rather faster than I bargained for.