Carnatic Music and Karnataka Sangeetham

[vgovindan]

Sorry for raising a fundamental question.
I had raised a query about what Sri Munirao calls 'Karnataka Sangeetham'. His response is given below -

Karnataka regions in the rule of Nayak’s, became Carnatic, in the British rule times. Nayak rulers supported the ‘Bhakthi’ music movement based on the Dasa Sahithya, with elements of nascent ‘art’ form. Tanjore ruler’s patronage to Maha Vidwans to develop the ’art’ form for teaching and practice, based on the works of Purandara Dasa and other great musicologists, resulted in the identity of ‘art’ form, different from the pre existing Pann and Arayar Isai in the tamilzh regions, identity of Karnataka Sangeetha.

munirao2001

IMHO, the Indian music as practised in South India - leaving aside the HM gharanas in erstwhile Mysore state, like Dharwar - is called Carnatic Music. The word Carnatic was coined by British to refer to region of Deccan Plateau and down South.
Though not very authentic, the Wiki source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnatic_region gives the general description of what Carnatic - as a layman understands.

Is the contention that Tamil isai - pan and Arayar are different from Carnatic Music, correct?

There are any number of Tamil literature which gives details of music as practised then.

(PS - As per the link http://srutimag.blogspot.in/2013/02/dha ... ni_16.html Dharwar gharana owes it origin to Gwalior Gharana)

[varsha]

I wonder if one should use the term Dharwar Gharana .Dharwar was not in The Mysore state.
Neither was Bellary , a distinguished seat of Cm.

We are discussing this formation and existence , in times that have seen porous boundaries between gharanas.
Gwalior Gh , jaipur Atrauli Gh,Kirana Gh each indicate something significant ly different.
Dharwar Gh does not mean anything.

The prolific output of the region in terms of practitioners though , is baffling.But then the period upto 60s all over the nation is baffling.

If there had to be a comment in favour of calling it a Dharwar Gharana , i would prefer to punctuate it with a negative sentiment that there are few who stood true to their original Gharanas

The case of Vinayak Torvi is typical.He is identified today more with Bhimsen Joshi than his original school Guru Gururao Despande.
Anyone who has heard vintage Torvi without traces of Bhimsen Joshis stylistic approach will agree that there is more to the dissolving of Gharanas than just porous boundaries.
The fault may lie at the doors of following popular acceptable styles ,choosing popular Gurus along the road ,rather than rigorous belief in a system.
Something we have seen in Cm in abundant measure too.
The sruti article is interesting because of the paradoxical nature of the two artists.Mansoor never crossing the laxman rekha and Rajaguru marking his runups from the rekha.I have heard him sing carnatic like passages too .
This labour of calling something Karnatak or Carnatic is just a hairsplitting exercise that can be visited time and again.

[vgovindan]

Varsha,
I am in agreement with you about the nomenclatures. But is the statement of Mr Munirao correct?

[munirao2001]

VGovindan and Varsha
What I have stated is not hearsay or my imagination, but based on the history. Historical evidence of written and published works and also research material available for the public in the Tanjore Sarswathi Mahal library and other manuscripts libraries.
All hearsay or one person or a group of persons imagination or statement, its discussions, unsubstantiated is hairsplitting exercise, not historical. E.g.'it is called Karnataka Sangeetha, derived from Karnaithihi, Karnatakaha'-meaning what is pleasant to the ears, it is Karnataka, Karnataka Sangeetha.
Karnataka Sangeetha, one of the greatest of art forms, needs lots of research and publication for the posterity (not the doctoral thesis, with motive of resultant personal benefits).

munirao2001

[Pratyaksham Bala]

munirao2001 wrote:
Karnataka regions in the rule of Nayak’s, became Carnatic, in the British rule times.

Keladi and Chitradurga were the only Karnataka regions ruled by the Nayaks.

Nayak rulers supported the ‘Bhakthi’ music movement based on the Dasa Sahithya, with elements of nascent ‘art’ form.

After the disintegration of the Vijayanagara empire, the Tamil regions with HQ at Thanjavur, Gingee and Madurai were ruled by Nayaks. Like any other king, they too patronized various art forms of the local area. By that time, Bhakti movement practised since the time of Saiva Nayanmars was a well developed system. This movement was strengthened by the Vaishnavas from the 11th century, and it had its greatest impact in South Indian music. The Dasa sahitya, at best, might also have been a part of the Bhakti music at later stages.

Thus, the present day Carnatic Music system evolved from the well developed Tamil Pannisai, the old South Indian music system, which had its influence in the nearby areas including Karnataka. It had its greatest influence in Andhra and Karnataka during the time of Tuluva emperor Krishnadevaraya who had annexed the Tamil lands of Pandya and Chola under his reign. South Indian Music system had great admirers and practitioners in all regions of South India. Purandaradasa of Karnataka was one such great practitioner of the South Indian music system.

During the rule of the Nayaks, the official language of their kingdoms in Gingee, Madurai and Thanjavur was Telugu as it was the mother tongue of the ruling Nayaks !

Thanjavur, the Chola region, was ruled by Sevappa Nayak,etc. who belonged to Telugu Kammavar Naidu caste.
Gingee, a part of Chola region, was ruled by Achyutappa Nayak, etc. who belonged to Telugu Balija Chetti caste.
Madurai, the Pandya region, was ruled by Visvanatha Nayadu, etc., who belonged to Telugu Balija caste.

With the support and importance extended to Telugu language by the ruling Nayaks, it came into prominence, and its influence in Carnatic Music is well-known.

Carnatic Music seems to be the best possible nomenclature ! Why mess up with this name?

[rajeshnat]

In the days of sangetham.com which got down and never restored and content grabbed by two founders of sangeetham.com, there was a long discussion then on this name carnatic. There were plenty of posts , there is one post where i consolidated different view points in one post then ,adding the same post now(I dont have other posts on this topic)

----------------------the past post below done in 2005 or before @ sangeetham.com --------------------
Karnatakam or karnataka issai has many sources, consolidating all .

1. The land is carnatic as the british called it , hence the name karnatic

2. karunAdu is ancient name for kannaDa which DRS + humdinger pointed out.

3. karnatakam means ancient in english . The source of ancient could be either in tamil or kannaDa.

4. According to Sanskrit language : karNe aTati iti karNATakam (English: Carnatic). Karnataka sangeetham (Carnatic Music) means which pleases (aTati) the ear (karNam) . The land belong to Carnatic music is called Carnatic region(Entire South Inida).
source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnatic_region

5. Karu' means black and also means central. 'naadu' means country and 'agam' means home. Thus Karunaadu meant central country, as well as black (people) country. The name 'karu naad agam' got anglicized to karunaadaga isai..."

6. Cilappathiharam makes mention of Cavari Puhum Pattinam. During this period the performing arts were very popular and as a matter of routine, dramas and music expositions were held on every full moon night on the banks of the river Cavery, where it merges into the sea. The popularity of these dramas cum music prevailed in the township that was located on Cavery near the sea shore (Kadal Carai) which got its name as Cavery puhum Pattanam and the festivity on the sea shore became known as ‘Carai’ (Shore) ‘nadaham’ (Drama) and ‘issai’ (music), which turned out ‘carai nadaha issai’ to ‘carnadaha isssai’ and anglicized as ‘Carnatic music’."

[varsha]

No wonder I got such poor marks in history. Looks like it can do with the rigorous discipline of other pursuits.
Anyway these subjects dont interest me.I just pitched in to correct some impressions on Dharwars so called Gharana .

[arasi]

Varsha,
So, that's what it is! You said it, and I agree with you--some subjects don't interest us...

Another thing. We are so used to using CM and HM at Rasikas.org that KM sounds odd.

[Ramasubramanian M.K]

Frankly Dear I care a damn as to what you call it!! Life is short--so many great music to listen to and appreciate.What difference does it make whether you cal it CM or KM or HM? History buffs may like the discussion--I am also interested in History--the lives of the musicians etc but more to understand the context under which the music evolved.

Sorry for this curmudgeon's take on this topic!!!!

[kvchellappa]

History is an opinion based on available evidence, which is scanty at least in Indian context, and a generalisation overall. It should be accorded a minor place in all that matters for humanity.

[arasi]

A curmudgeon doesn't smudge words--
Nor does he use too many words or fudge

We don't seem to budge, and so pile words
Upon words upon words--for what end?

Knowing you, you are not a curmudgeon
But your donning a coat of one at this moment
Brings relief to a battlement of words! Bless!

[varsha]

to understand the context under which the music evolved.

here we go!!! glimpse of a rare moment in a late night concert
http://www.mediafire.com/listen/d9cboqd ... unpuri.mp3

[varsha]

And another...... Explore
http://www.mediafire.com/listen/2ijf8cb ... las_02.mp3
one more ,this time from Toronto
http://www.mediafire.com/listen/9pqqmmh ... 8-Kafi.mp3
Trying to pick a common territory in all these .....Enjoy .

[vasanthakokilam]

Thanks Varsha.

In many previous discussions about this among members there is not much of a consensus, as Rajesh has summarized. People have their own pet hypotheses. There were also regionalism mixed in which sours people. Some segment of the people do not like it if it is too closely associated with Tamil Pann and others do not like it if it is identified with Kannada or Karnataka state. Rather than getting disgusted with such divisions, that is all the more reason that we should encourage a proper and scholarly study by someone who has no axe to grind. I do not know who that will be specifically but there are a lot of genuine research oriented people who can dig through literature and come up with a good hypothesis. I am surprised that it has not been done already. May be it has been done and we do not know about it. May be Professor Ramanathan (Retd. Department Of Indian Music, Madras University) can be asked to write something about it. At least he can say if enough digging of available material has been done with or without any firm conclusion. I know Akellaji knows Prof Ramanathan well and he can invite him to write about it here.

Anything here?: http://www.musicresearch.in

[munirao2001]

Ramasubramanian.M.K. Sir,
Quote " more to understand the context under which the music evolved." One of the purpose of Historical research is very much about this.

munirao2001