Tyagaraja's Jingla by American School Orchestra

[asangeetha]

Happy to share this..

Sun Prairie & Middleton School Orchestras in USA attempting a melharmonic re-creation of Tyagaraja's Anathudanu ganu composed by Chitravina N Ravikiran. I believe the actual performance premieres in November.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFUHNKxjuxg

[ganesh_mourthy]

so very nice.

I remember someone saying " orutharu paadaratha kaatilum , pathu peru serndhu ore maadhiri oppaari vachaa ketka nalla irukkum" . That is the power of unison.

I wish we have a melharmonic of many nice Krithis in the future to branch out.. Vocal , instrument and melharmonic. . Several instruments in unison to suit Carnatic. Sri Valli Devasenapathe comes to my mind immediately. And Merusamana. Wishful thinking.

[arasi]

Are clips of Ravikiran's melharmonic with the kids at Cleveland available yet on youtube?

[arasi]

Ganesh_mourthy,
There is a thread on the meharmonic at Cleveland, a review by Vasundara in the Concert Review Section. I am hoping at least part of it will be made available for rasikAs. I loved watching the kids with the orchestra when it was streamed.

[vgovindan]

orutharu paadaratha kaatilum , pathu peru serndhu ore maadhiri oppaari vachaa ketka nalla irukkum" .

I hope you understand the meaning of 'oppAri'.

[Sundara Rajan]

What next ? Ravi Kiran will play Bethovan's or Bach's concertos on his chitraveena in the next Cleveland Aradhana ! I only note disharmony here.
As a sanyAsi Thayagaraja was buried in the sitting posture ; or else he would be turning in his grave .

[vasanthakokilam]

I did not know this song so I looked it up on youtube and found a Nithyasree version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwFFHAdNCAo

Sundara Rajan, I like your humor there I do not know what T's reaction would be, but musicians and vaggeyakaras usually know when they hear good music no matter which genre it is and I do not see why Tyagaraja would be an exception. I think Thyagaraja would have blessed Ravikiran on this on just the musical merits alone since the origins of this kind of work comes from a deep understanding of music at the compositional level. I can even imagine Thyagaraja giving Ravikiran some pointers and guidelines to the adaptation of the melody and rhythm of his song being set in this harmony context. May be he would have advised Ravikiran on 'bhava adaptation' which is a monumentally difficult task. Pardon me, I am speculating here quite freely.

( I do not know why you hear dis-hormony there even if it sounds non-CMish, I wonder if it is because it is a rehearsal and there is some verbal counting and instructions by the conductor which may have been distracting. You would not hear that in the real performance. In any case, it may just be that it was not to your liking which is perfectly understandable )

btw, this is not the first time T's songs have been set in this format. We have listened and discussed this following piece a few times before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es2cv1NrLN4
It may not be melharmony based but as you would hear this is a full on orchestral adaptation of one of Tyagaraja's great works.
(listen to it preferably with a pair of headphones, same suggestion for the school kids piece provided above )

Just to keep you interested, listen to the last movement starting from 10:55 or so. What raga and song is that? ( those who have read the previous thread on this topic would know, so do not spoil it for those who want to listen unspoiled)

[vgovindan]

Is there any harm in calling this simply 'jingla rAga'? Why drag name of T? Ragas are common heritage, but kRtis have the imprint of the composer. Can we allow our National Anthem to be sung in a disrespectful manner? Isn't it simply a publicity stunt to put T's name? I agree it is indeed 'oppAri' because it refers to T's kRti. Had it been simply 'jinglA', go ahead and have any kind of variation, who cares?

[ganesh_mourthy]

Arasi thanks for that. I am heading there.

Vgovindan , I do not have a word to translate that to English. They don't oppari there. They silently mourn and I don't like it. It is a killing silence and I prefer our garuda puranam.

VK , sometimes you are too esoteric and I quite did not understand. Look at my writing ... KG like. . That is my sophistry way of saying I struggle to translate my thoughts to words

[vasanthakokilam]

G_M, now I do not understand what you are talking about.

VGV, that is a bit harsh, I thought. Which is fine, that is your feeling, but this is what artists do. It is not like the melody is murdered. It is all there. It is not that different from say AIR orchestra playing carnatic songs ( or what the famous nadamuni band used to do ), they are different dressings of the same beautiful core.

Now, talking of the word 'O" word which I really really wish we did not bring on here, which is worse? this, or the annual pancharathna krithi group singing right at T's samadhi in a totally unsynchronized fashion which more often than not sounds like cacophony. I have a feeling T would rather have his music played properly like these school kids rather than people paying homage to him in that cacaophonic fashion.

[vgovindan]

vk,
Probably I have not been able to convey my thought correctly. I will leave it at that.

[ganesh_mourthy]

VK , nothing much. It is just my jealousy put in a different style when I see some of you effortlessly write what you want to convey , while I keep procrastinating even writing a reply here. Mine used to be the shortest comprehensive writing in my whole class, because I simply could not.

About the O" word is it really that bad. Especially when you have used just the first Letter , I dread to think if it is so derogatory. Or , perhaps it is regionally offensive or has stronger connotation.

I was at a house warming ceremony in Dindugal and when one of the important persons missing , I told " Avaru thervula nippaaru" to those who were frantically searching for him. Actually he was supposed to be waiting outside in the corner of the street expecting another VIP visitor. My literal explanation was not well received. In the context of my circle of people, it is absolutely normal .

But, when people from Tanjore casually use the work Ma... for hair instead of Mudi that we use , I could never take it although it is correct. See , i could not even write the word.

I think over the years the meaning of the words evolve into more stronger expressions. When you ask in a everyday context (or rather say ) "how are you ", the answer has to be just , " I am good" or something like that.


Imagine the person replies " I am having a terrible problem in life " . Well then our established rule goes here, " Oh no , I did not mean to ask about your problems or about you comprehensively. It was not even about "you". It was just a " how are you?". The socializing " how are you" without any meaning to it.

But seriously , is that O such an offensive word. We often use it in our region. Am I getting too disconnected to other regional sensitivity?! Two persons have already pointed it out , hence I am asking.

[sramanujan1943]

Is there any harm in calling this simply 'jingla rAga'? Why drag name of T? Ragas are common heritage, but kRtis have the imprint of the composer. Can we allow our National Anthem to be sung in a disrespectful manner? Isn't it simply a publicity stunt to put T's name? I agree it is indeed 'oppAri' because it refers to T's kRti. Had it been simply 'jinglA', go ahead and have any kind of variation, who cares?

I just watched this link. It is Tyagaraja's Jingla Keertanai - Anathudanuganu - clearly starting from the 58th second onwards till finish. This should be fairly obvious to those who have heard this composition rendered by good artistes Being a listener of both Western Classical and Carnatic, I can see that there is a prelude to the actual song for 55 seconds, again in pure Jingla. I think it is a humongous effort by the students, schools involved, and the US-based orchestra directors. As VK says, this effort is definitely more 'cheerful' than Pancharathnam disharmony in Tiruvaiyaru or other aradhanas.

[SrinathK]

Let's not forget that Thyagaraja and Dikshitar were inspired even by the occasional snatches of band and orchestral music that might have been around in their times. "Vara Gana Leela" is one other keerthanam composed in a major scale! The violin was discovered in one of these inspired moments.

Correct me if I am wrong, but this raga "Jingla" (note the name) in particular seems to have taken some inspiration from Scottish music. Then there is Garudadhwani. Again what is wrong in crediting 81 ragas to Thyagaraja -- he was the one who created them. There is no disrespect when ragas get imported or exported or when keerthanams are composed in band tunes (though I am sure there would have been, and there still are, people complaining about Thyagaraja and Diskhitar too), so what's wrong when it goes the other way? When our music goes to another culture, it is only inevitable that they will integrate some of it into their music as we have also done.

Some of you might not be aware that MSG could play Beethoven too. Or L Subramaniam et. al.

LGJ has often put quite a few WCM touches in his raga alapanas. I have one Shanmukapriya on the '70s tour with some interesting phrasings. He was very fond of listening to Beethoven and Bach too and some of his inspirations came from Bach compositions (read his biography).

And everyone who is complaining here should stop watching old film songs which were pure Carnatic + orchestra ventures -- IMHO the first attempt at melharmony and which has produced some truly incredible renditions. Maybe someone could try to get the kids to play that GNB's Sonnadai Seidhida with the original orchestral backup. Or LGJ's thillanas. Or the Pancharatnams. It just tells me (quite repeatedly), that most people don't see the origins of the standards we have come to accept today.

I dare say, the Chitraveena is in theory quite capable of playing a concerto -- if one can sort out how to play different notes on different strings. If that is resolved, in theory the flat bridge would give it a greater harmonic capability than the violin!

Wish all the students all the very best of luck and hope to see how the stage performance was.

[ganesh_mourthy]

I dare say, the Chitraveena is in theory quite capable of playing a concerto -- if one can sort out how to play different notes on different strings. If that is resolved, in theory the flat bridge would give it a greater harmonic capability than the violin!

Deviating from the subject , but a quick one to gain some insight. How does the chithraveena manage with plain notes. In violin the straight notes are very possilbe at great speeds as the spots are nearby and you dont have to move the hand but only fingers mostly except when you want to go higher when there is more slight than plain. I know chithraveena is a versatile instrument , but how do they get around with this. In chitraveena one has to slide !!

[SrinathK]

I would think that they get the slide in place before the pluck. But yes, the Chitraveena totally slides around which makes it ideal for a gamaka heavy, very gayaka kind of playing that comes closest to matching the continuity of the human voice, but it wouldn't be able to match a flute at playing trill brighas (and vice versa). And then there is also genius skill and lots of sadhana at work Maybe @udayshankar or Ravikiran sir can say. And while I'm at that I'm waiting for the chitraveena-chitravenu-violin trio.

[vasanthakokilam]

G_M, About your 'O' question the short answer is Yes. Check out the Wikipedia article on it. Any more discussion of that in this thread will be inappropriate.

[ganesh_mourthy]

Oh Ok VK . I still could not get it. But, I leave it. Thanks anyway, I understood its connotations in another part when there were such strong protests.

[vasanthakokilam]

G_M, Your first reference to it did make the point but unfortunately it led to a discussion on it. Anyway, we are in sync, we will leave it at that.

On your Chitraveena question, that is interesting. My first thought was, a continuously varying slide should in theory be able to produce a flat note since a flat note is a special and limiting case of a continuously varying note. ( just like how certainty is a special and limiting case of probability (!!) ) But how does one execute a sequence of flat notes when the string is still vibrating without traversing through all the intermediate points. I have a feeling they have some techniques developed for it. As Srinath says, it may involve lots of years of hard work to get that right.

[ganesh_mourthy]

VK

I did discuss the first line with my friend and I am still not able to come around with it intitially. And I did notice someone in our forum started a thread . Are we not singing Dirge for ....that is what wiki says.

Ok Ok Ok .VK It is over. Actually my language skills may also be defective. Figuratively it means whining which is used so commonly in movies , soaps which has censor for other actually abusive words. And my well informed Maama said it is more seriously abachaaram than offensive. So now I understood. But, as you said we will leave it. We are not living in an island , I take back that.

About Chitraveena, I am still not able to understand your logic. When the strings are plucked it resonates unlike in flute or violin. In case of violin or flute you take the fingers away from there and wheras in Chitraveena is it possible to pluck after you have slided and stoped at a particular point. I am seeing stars. To me any instrument other than violin is an impossible instrument. I always wondered at flautists " how do they keep on blowing"?!!!
And Nadhaswarams to me , you should be oxygen tanks.

I have a silly question to ask now . Does anyone know the name of the simple instrument built with a Kottaankachi and a foot long wooden piece and a string? Those days I used to buy them during Maasi Magam's fare. It is no more available nowadays in such fares. You see more of mobile covers, screen guards, vanity pieces. Make in India stuffs.

[arasi]

g_m,
You bought that at the fair, but couldn't play a note! Not just you, all the rest of us
You couldn't get a teacher for it because the seller/player left town that evening to sell the koTTAngachi fiddles (that's what they were called in our days) in the fair in a town far away

[Pratyaksham Bala]

Kottankachi Violin !

Trivandrum :-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Sa_SStKP40

Mysore :-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Msn3NlPueNI

[ganesh_mourthy]

Really Arasi,

Is it kottankachi violin? mmm I doubt. It has another name.

but you know you can actually play with it though not with a fiddle perfection. I remember one of my family friend just picked one and started playing something musical. that is why it haunts my mind.

[ganesh_mourthy]

Pratyaksham Bala

those 2 are a bit of high end version in the youtube.

[Pratyaksham Bala]

... Is it kottankachi violin? mmm I doubt. It has another name...

Kottankuchi Vaadhyam.

[arasi]

g_m,
Your friend is a highly musical person then!

PB,
Your two clips show the sellers playing them--one plying them from his cart and the other from his tiny shop.

The pushcart has a flute too. From what is written on the side of the cart, is the vAdya also called Fancy vINA?!!

[Pratyaksham Bala]

Other names :-

agappai kinnari
thanthi vadhyam
ravana veena

[drmnarmadha96]

Dear All,
The very word Kottangkuchi signifies the gourd at the base to which family Vina,Sitar,Tanpura, Sarod and the Gottuvadhyam belongs to.
The You tube illustration of the Kerala performer shows one such instance of the folk origin Gourd instrument.

Right from pre historic to present day times all the evolutionary process of the violin shows that it is flat on one end which in no way resembles the above" Kottanguchi violin" description as per the technical and historical literature available from Indian Music and Western Music sources.
The Thumba instrument(Tumburu Narada)family has been referred to in popular songs as well.
Just sharing my humble thoughts on the evolution of the violin and bow which was referred to as Ravanastron.
Regards.
Narmadha

[vgovindan]

This is known as Ek tArA (single stringed) in North India. Meera is said to have sung her bhajans to the accompaniment of Ek tArA. Kabir is said to have sung with that.

[ganesh_mourthy]

Narmadha Ji

Thanks and that was insightful. Whenever we find something simple and basic we immediately dignify it with greater antiquity and as a predecessor of a complex later evolution. But many a times they are born in humble way with an attempt to reproduce the complex one with whatever means available. The kottankuchi vadhyam simply can be compared to ezhaikketha ellurundai. You can roll some leafs and make a pi pi sound. that does not mean that its next stage is clarinet.