The ineluctable and the ineffable- Bhava in CM

[Rsachi]

I am starting this new thread because Rajesh hinted that 'Bhava" is an elusive subject and one can't measure it or even define it easily.

Preamble:
For those totally ignorant of Indian languages, bhava we are discussing here is bhaava (rhymes with lava). Long a first. Not bhava (rhymes with rava) with short a- that word stands for ëxisting or this worldly existence, without the aesthetic connotations. bhAva or bhaava ( henceforth I will write bhava for lazy convenience) is to be pronounced with a long a.

My message:

I will try to define bhava as I feel it. I am emboldened by the innumerable viewings of the advertisement for the new movie Piku, where Big B stands for all that is "motion and emotion."

This universe is called jagat...In Sanskrit it means "what moves". There is no life without motion. Music is first and foremost motion. But the ineluctable and ineffable element in any great music is emotion.

Bhava is emotion in its most basic definition. Along with raga and tala, it defines music.
When someone renders swaras or chitteswaras, there is melody and rhythm or raga and tala. But when someone does niraval, there is bhava also.

Similarly every lyric worth its name ( I am excluding Ek Do Teen and such stuff) has a context and meaning called bhava.
There is madhura bhava (male-female love) in Astapadis. There is vatsalya bhava (motherly love) in songs sung as lullabies.

What's more: when a raga is presented with its total personality, it acquires raga bhava. Not just melody, but beyond melody. Some ragas are full of bhava potential, eg. Bhairavi, Shahana, Kalyani, Varali.

You can see that rasa and bhava are very related words.

A great musician can build up bhava from the first song through a concert and "hold" the mood. In fact any bhava has a staying power. They even define something called "Sthaayi" bhava meaning emotion that is not fleeting. Let the mood have a hold on the audience for some time...
In such a great concert, even swara singing will become bhava-laden, as it rides on the bhava created thus far!

Bhava is a collective consciousness of the CM aesthetic. It has an element of suggestion, memory, and recall. A great musician can create the bhava throughout the audience. The music and lyric both help him or her enormously.

Rakti ragas give more scope for bhava than the scalar "tonal" ragas which have melody but little scope for bhava. A raga with huge bhava potential is a raga like Kapi or Sindhubhairavi. I will not start defining connection between gamakas and bhava etc.

When we hear someone's music is impactful, we can guess it has melody, rhythm and also bhava in good measure. Without bhava, music will be easily passed over.



When you simply play the scale of Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, without thinking of the words, you have melody and rhythm. But the moment you sing it with words, you start creating a collective imagery of a child looking up and wondering at the star-lit sky. That is bhava.

Sahitya has been mentioned by me separately from bhava elsewhere because of a reason. Whereas bhava is a more immersive feeling, sahitya has many dimensions of story, poetry, cleverness of construction, abstract ideas etc. When I hear "Sarvam Brahma-mayam" i enjoy the bhava as well as the sahitya.

Hope I am making sense here. What do you say?
I gotta go, Ciao!

[shankarank]

When someone renders swaras or chitteswaras, there is melody and rhythm or raga and tala. But when someone does niraval, there is bhava also.

Oh you have not heard Madurai Somu rendering swaras in a opening kalyAni varNam in slow pace!! Hear it again!! Or MMI's hamsadhwani swarams ( that pentatonic rAga). A T.V Subbarao article reproduced during 90s in Sruthi magazine talks about Tiger's swara rendering soaked in bhava - "we cannot hear a tatiginatOm swaram from him" - same that is said of MMI often.

[Rsachi]

Of course! MMI's music is ALL BHAVA.
Somu could make up bhava on the spot. In any moment of the concert.

[kvchellappa]

Can you kindly distinguish between raga bhava abd sahita bhava? Is there any other bhava (laya bhava for instance)? Can a musician sing with bhava without reference to meaning? This has been rankling in my mind ever since TMK said in his dismissive way that meaning does not matter to musician, only the notes. And I read people write that he sings with bhava. What is that bhava when the musician has no regard for meaning? He also claimed that the composers had only music in their mind and not meaning as in notation words are split without meaning. My mind refuses to accept these, but it can be due to my ignorance of music and the way I have (mis)understood it all along.

[cacm]

When someone renders swaras or chitteswaras, there is melody and rhythm or raga and tala. But when someone does niraval, there is bhava also.
Oh you have not heard Madurai Somu rendering swaras in a opening kalyAni varNam in slow pace!! Hear it again!! Or MMI's hamsadhwani swarams ( that pentatonic rAga). A T.V Subbarao article reproduced during 90s in Sruthi magazine talks about Tiger's swara rendering soaked in bhava - "we cannot hear a tatiginatOm swaram from him" - same that is said of MMI often.

MMI SPENT HIS ENTIRE LIFE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND BHAVA. He especially followed TIGER'S SWARA RENDERINGS & TAILORED HIS renderings to those of Mazhavarayal & Tiger; THE RESULTS SHOW HE WAS RIGHT IN PURSUING THIS.....VKV

[cacm]

Can you kindly distinguish between raga bhava abd sahita bhava? Is there any other bhava (laya bhava for instance)? Can a musician sing with bhava without reference to meaning? This has been rankling in my mind ever since TMK said in his dismissive way that meaning does not matter to musician, only the notes. And I read people write that he sings with bhava. What is that bhava when the musician has no regard for meaning? He also claimed that the composers had only music in their mind and not meaning as in notation words are split without meaning. My mind refuses to accept these, but it can be due to my ignorance of music and the way I have (mis)understood it all along.

TMK is NO EXPERT when it comes to this subject. His lack of not knowing the Language& Sahitya is OBVIOUS TO ANY ONE who knows a LITTLE LIKE ME! I actually organised a session about Raga & Sahitya BHAVA WHERE Dr.DURGA explained in detail the intricasies of this subject. TRS also commented about it & how MMI WAS PERFECT in this aspect. It is well understood CERTAIN RAGAS LIKE JAYANTHASENA CANNOT BE RENDERED PROPERLY WITHOUT PERFECT KNOWLEDGE& USE & EMPHASIS ON THE CORRECT SWARAS WITH PERFECT SWARASTHANAMS & OTHER RAGAS LIKE KALYANI CAN BE RENDERED BASED ON HISTORICAL DEVELOPMENT FROM FOLK ORIGINS ETC.JUST BEING ARROGANT & INSISTING ON his ERRANEOUS VIEWS IS CHARACTERISITIC OF TMK. However THAT CANNOT& WILL NOT CHANGE THE truth......VKV

[vgovindan]

tyAgarAja, in his kRti 'rAmA nIyeDa' - kharaharapriya, states

'kAmini vEshadhAriki sAdhvi naDatalu Emain telusunA? A rItI
nIyeDa prEma rahitulaku nAma ruci telusunA?'

O rAma!
Can one, performing the role of a chaste woman, know anything about her conduct (character)?
Similarly, can one, who is bereft of (divine) love towards you, know the taste of your name?

bhAva means 'becoming'. It is more than assuming. It is merging one's personality with the ideal. That can be achieved only if the person knows truly the purport of his bhAvana. This is practised in Sri Vidya - in the various nyAsas - consigning. One consigns his body parts as those of the Mother and finally consigns himself into her. Here, it is not a pretension, but a true feeling of the Mother having taken command of his body. This is bhAvana. Gradually, this becomes his nature and he reaches sAyujyam (union) through various stages. In order to enter that stage, one's heart has to be full.

bhAva is the essence of nATya and drama. Many consummate actors are, at times, stated to become entranced while enacting roles.

Now relating this to a musician, who is also an actor on the stage, bhAva comes into play when the musician has understood the sAhitya, the emotional content of the sAhitya and the depiction of that emotional content as the undulations of svaras. If the bhAva is pretentious, it would only be ostentating the scene and therefore, exaggeration.

However, rAga bhAva per-se, particularly in rakti rAgas, cannot be understated. Even without sAhitya, the bhAva can be truly depicted by a consummate musician. But then, again ostentation is undoing of that bhAva. This rAga bhAva is stated to be the seed for many inspired kRtis of great vAggEyakkAras. .

The present Kutcheri paddhati of CM, does not permit even a consummate musician to carry a bhAva throughout the concert. The paddhati is simply a manoranjakatva (popular entertainment) and nothing more than that. One sees flashes of brilliance and bhAva - probably because the rAga has those properties embedded; but that is not sustainable and not sustained.

I am yet to come across a concert laden with bhAva from beginning to end.

Sorry for being skeptic. I may add that this bhAva is very much noticeable in HM. Where have we gone wrong?

Taking the kRti referred above, is it possible for a musician to be in the mood of enjoying the 'nAma ruci' as tyAgarAja did? If that is possible, then it is bhAva. And then, he conveys that bhAva to the audience. There is no applause there - mere drinking.

[Rsachi]

What a beautiful discussion! Thank you all.

When TMK says sahitya doesn't matter to the singer as much as the music part, he is voicing something I have heard from many musicians. They say that the purpose of music is to transport you to an elevated mood by the sheer impact of musical bhava which raises you to a state of bliss with no details of sahitya. Everything merges into a wordless joy. That is also called sayujya and also bhava samadhi.

But I feel sahitya is the strength of CM and hugely adds to the engagement of the mind as well as the musical soul or heart of the listener.

HM definitely creates bhava with almost no lyrics! At least early on. And even in Thumri etc. the musicians are indistinct with words.

About any musician who can sustain bhava from beginning to end, I have lived through such concerts. Many of them. I am not mentioning names of artistes lest the discussion be derailed.

I think MSS gave a fabulous concert at UN and the bhava was present from beginning to end.

[VK RAMAN]

The singer can feel bhava as tears roll Down their eyes and they choke for a second like audience.

[cacm]

MSS CLEARLY SHOWED WHAT PROPER BHAVA MEANS; BY THIS i mean PROPER understanding of the Language, NUANCES of the composition well as ABILITY to render compositions PERFECTLY (Technically) . SHE managed to PROPERLY render ALL ASPECTS in almost the correct proportions instead of elevating her own capabilities which is the MAJOR DEFECT of the TMK'S of the current scene who in their ARROGANCE& IGNORANCE try to prevail based on popularity & ignorance on the part of the audience just using their access to the press.....VKV

[kvchellappa]

Confusion arises in learning minds about bhava, aesthetics, emotion (other than bhava; e.g. when we hear adutthu vantha ennai.. tears come, but is it bhava or an impressionable or vulnerable emotional state?) etc. What is the drawing line?
I have felt that in many concerts I have experienced bhava (I cannot really say this confidently) from start to finish in the ARI format. The review of Mahavishnu of SS concert in bay area is a case in point. I quote him because he sounds authentic.

[kvchellappa]

As to bhava transcending sense, I feel that it is a later process and not direct. It borders on metaphysics; the union you feel (nadabrahmam as the devout describe) is achieved through the process of going through meaning and then going beyond, even as spirituality is a journey through reason to the region beyond reason. The point of ignoring sense in the first place makes no sense to me.

[Nick H]

When someone renders swaras or chitteswaras, there is melody and rhythm or raga and tala. But when someone does niraval, there is bhava also.

I think there are degrees. As mentioned on another thread, I don't believe that, with some exceptions that perhaps we might not define as such, that music is ever lacking in some sort of feeling, or is not heard and felt by its audience.

At the same time, I know what you mean. As neraval begins, something in me listens that wasn't attending so much before. And then, we have the exceptional, where the entire concert just breathes with feeling, and I had the happy chance to be at one such only two days ago, that of Tadepally Lokanantha Sarma, who breathed his whole soul into every note, and made the swaras as full of bhava as any niraval. As the violinist said, perhaps translating the concept for my Western appearance: he sang every note with feeling.

[VK RAMAN]

This forum and the subject we discuss about is not for bashing any particular artists no matter how much a writer dislikes an artist IMHO

[vasanthakokilam]

Fascinating discussion. Thanks Sachi for taking the initiative to start this thread and thanks everyone for the various viewpoints to help us grasp the different dimensions of it.

Sanskrit often uses the same word to mean quite a few things, all possibly related at some higher level. May be that is also what is at play here. Different people have a different meaning in their mind when they use the word but they are related at some level.

When VK Raman refers above to someone choking with emotion with tears flowing down their cheek, they are living that emotion at that time.There is a tamil phrase that describes how we perceive the sound in that state: 'kural thazhu thazhukka'. I do not know how to translate it.

How is that emotion communicated to us. It is through a definite change in timbre of the voice. Just like how timbre is the one that makes one instrument sound different from another or how one person sounds different from another, it also has a role to play in communicating different emotions.

It does not have to be that extreme. There is a range of timbres that can communicate different emotions. But Timbre is not emotion itself, it is just a communication medium from one person to another. And it is an acoustic thing overlaid on a linguistic thing. In a similar manner, Swara, Rhythm and Lyrics are acoustic and linguistic things which can act as carriers of emotions.

So my intrinsic understanding of bhava is that thing that is communicated to us using Sruthi/Swara, Laya, Lyrics and TImbre. It is not them and they are not it. It is an emergent phenomenon out of those things.

When that comes out of someone in a genuine and natural fashion ( and not through acting, good actors can get to that state on command ), we meet the criteria that VGV is getting at. In that state, it is not pretension, it is raw and real.

Can that same bhava be communicated without music? Yes it can be. You can scold someone with lyrics with a certain timbre in your voice, or you can exclaim in great joy in a similar fashion or let out a wild cry or just not say anything because you are overcome with sadness. The laya of your speech can communicate that emotion, that raw expressions of emotion. If that is so, what is the role of music in communicating that emotion? Music, through melody and laya, adds a palatable layer of presentation to the raw emotions. It fits the rawness, roughness and wildness of basic emotions into a structure so it can be methodically communicated to others.

That is the bhava of music, a presentation layer of the raw emotion deeply and genuinely felt inside, achieved through Swara, Laya, Lyrics and Timbre .

[SrinathK]

There are 2 reasons why musicians don't feel lyrics are important. One of them is superficial and the other is a totally different phenomenon altogether :

1) They do not know the language, understand the lyrics or pronounce them correctly and this is closely tied to Rsachi's graph in the previous topic that as a child, the lyrics are the least important thing and it takes more experience before the lyrical feeling is obtained -- it is likely that some of us never quite grow out of that phase. Learning and perfecting languages is hard work and even then, we may not always agree personally with a composer.

And I'll tell you, in all the 10000+ recordings in my collection, no one has ever reached the level of MSS in lyrics. That Vishnu Sahasranamam record is one in a millenium level of perfection. More interestingly, on an average, the ladies are definitely better than the men at lyrics.

2) The second reason is a meditative one and it has to do with the experience of a moment of intuitive realization -- that when we touch a higher consciousness and are overwhelmed in the process, at that point we just want to silently feel that intuitive calm above the storms of all sensory inputs and thoughts.

In all it's glory, it probably is something like what Paramahamsa Yogananada experienced : http://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/chap14.php

But one point he does make : "...The cosmic vision left many permanent lessons. By daily stilling my thoughts, I could win release from the delusive conviction that my body was a mass of flesh and bones, traversing the hard soil of matter. The breath and the restless mind, I saw, were like storms which lashed the ocean of light into waves of material formsearth, sky, human beings, animals, birds, trees. No perception of the Infinite as One Light could be had except by calming those storms. As often as I silenced the two natural tumults, I beheld the multitudinous waves of creation melt into one lucent sea, even as the waves of the ocean, their tempests subsiding, serenely dissolve into unity.

A master bestows the divine experience of cosmic consciousness when his disciple, by meditation, has strengthened his mind to a degree where the vast vistas would not overwhelm him. The experience can never be given through one's mere intellectual willingness or open-mindedness. Only adequate enlargement by yoga practice and devotional bhakti can prepare the mind to absorb the liberating shock of omnipresence. It comes with a natural inevitability to the sincere devotee. His intense craving begins to pull at God with an irresistible force. The Lord, as the Cosmic Vision, is drawn by the seeker's magnetic ardor into his range of consciousness..."

While we aren't THAT evolved, the same energy that ultimately reveals the perception of infinity is also the same creative force within that is responsible for both artistic inspiration and intuitive genius -- and there lies the connection between nada and brahman. The same mechanism that goes to it's full extent in the yogi is also partially active in the artiste and the genius. At it's height, artistic inspiration brings us to the doorstep of the intuitive calm that is also the final goal of all meditative practices and one that we unconsciously experience every time in deep, refreshing sleep -- the doorway to bliss.

Unknowingly, it is what all artistes seek or describe when they talk about music as an infinite ocean, or that inspired moment that makes you go "Aha!" , or the genius of some composers and the importance of that moment of silence... -- However all artistes may not be able to properly communicate that feeling though they all try to do in their own words.

[cacm]

[quote="VK RAMAN"]This forum and the subject we discuss about is not for bashing any particular artists no matter how much a writer dislikes an artist IMHO
NAMES ARE MENTIONED & THROWN ABOUT IN DISCUSSIONS ESP. THOSE WHO HAVE STRONG POLARIZED VIEWS. I am not willing to waste MY TIME BASHING ANY ONE; For example I neither like or dislike TMK but TAKE into account what he has PUBLICLY SAID.
I neither have the time or feel worth my time to bash any one esp. TMK.. BUT VIEWS are subject to other views which the author of the views is willing to DEFEND. THAT'S the reason for forum where views are meant to be DISCUSSED. VKV

[SrinathK]

Coming to bhava, it is the experience of what I define as "emotional colours". The artiste's world of creativity is beyond ratioanl right and wrong, everything is an emotional flavour, a taste to be experienced, a rasa. As our eyes can see millions of colours, we can also feel millions of emotional colours. Tempo, laya, lyric, raga, energy level, tone, timbre, voice, instrument, percussion, non-verbal communication, language are all vehicles of communicating different emotional colours. If our "emotional sense" is developed, then just like we can see a vivid world with our eyes, we can also feel an equally vivid world of bhava.

And yes, the same force that drives genius is also the origin of all emotion and these are all different routes that point to their source -- it eludes theoretical description and is yet very easy to feel intuitively. "Tat tvam asi" -- You are that perception itself. None of this is to give a "religious flavour" or anything to my statement, in fact the experience of art and intuitive genius is something we have all felt over and above what we believe or do not believe in.

[kvchellappa]

Interesting. VK's views made me feel he is describing bhava as soul and Srinath's eloquent exposition appeared to elaborate it into the true spiritual dimension. But, is it because of what has been our background? Does someone whose background is different also feel the same way? While bhava is abstract, can it be less demanding on faith?
As for bashing, we do not bash an individual. If Copernicus contradicted Ptolemy, we look at the ideas, not the persons. That digression is not intended and need not be stressed.

[Rsachi]

I think this sentence needs mulling over:

Bhava is a collective consciousness of the CM aesthetic. It has an element of suggestion, memory, and recall.

The higher experience of bhava comes only to a seasoned rasika. It involves the ability to resonate with many aspects of our music. Bhava is not an instinct. It is a cultivated response which is not artificial.

That is why each listener feels bhava at the same moment differently. But great music targets and achieves a zone of bhava responses in the audience.

It is almost like a taste for coffee. No child will like a sip of coffee. No cultivated coffee drinker can stay away from it for too long.
Another word for bhava is coffee!

[vasanthakokilam]

Sachi, That sentence did catch my attention but could not fathom it fully. Your further elaboration helps to zone in better. Bhava is in the soul of the beholder? Possibly? Well, soul may be overstating it, but it seems to be more than the 'eye or ear of the beholder'.

kvchellappa, rather than soul, I was thinking of bhava in music as a cultured expression of normal human emotions. By the very nature of it, emotional expressed is seldom balanced and well measured in normal speech and behavior. Whether it is anger, excitement, happiness or even talking to a baby. Why should it be? To communicate that to strangers in a presentable and entertaining form over a longer period of time, music is an ideal vehicle. Music shares a lot of features with speech like intonation, rhythm, timbre, pitch, volume etc but set in a well defined and controlled frame work. That provides for a pleasant baseband on which these emotions can be expressed. For example, a change in speed and rapid variations and jumps in swaras definitely has an emotional connotation even without words.Adding words to it gives that emotion more definition body and substance. To tune to it and decode it requires a cultural context on the part of both the singer and the listener.

[munirao2001]

Bhaava, is experience of sense of mind, inner self or inner conscious of creative individual. Urge and drive to express and communicate takes the medium of akshara, word and collectively saahithya in the case of creative writer. Akshara by itself is dumb in nature and needs the support of voice, tone, volume, modulation etc for clarity, understanding and appreciation of the expression to realize the bhaava or emotion in relationship. When the relationship is established, the inner sense of mind and conscious of a creative individual becomes universal, inner conscious and experience. This unity established is saahithya bhaavam. Saahithya bhaavam gaining values with new insights and insights enlivening and enriching.

A creative individual, a musician, through learning and practice observes and assimilates through outer self or conscious, the svara, strength of a pure note and also a combination of svaras, in a form and structure. With inner self and conscious realizes the potentialities and possibilities for creating raaga bhaava. With trained and cultured voice, gains the strength to express his realization, voice and melody created finding expressions embedded in the mind for listening, experiencing and gaining pleasure in outer self or conscious, for one's own and universal. When the performer and the rasika achieve unity in understanding, appreciation and realization, the raaga bhaavam is established. Raaga bhaavam gaining values with new insights and insights enlivening and enriching.

Static Saahithya bhaavam is enhanced with movement; movement is given with melody; movement made possible by the raaga bhaavam. Rasika with primacy for saahithya bhaavam, gains richer experience and pleasure with the aid and support of the raaga bhaavam.

Static Svara needs the support for movement to find expression of the inherent and embedded bhaava; svara in relationship with other svara(s) with a form and structure, attaining the raaga svaroopa and sanchara; creative ideation, conceptualization and delivery by the performer; raaga lakshana established giving the identity; its relationship with one aspect of bhaavam or few other aspects of bhaavam with identity. Lakshya is independently abstract in form and also with beauty of abstraction. Only lakshana establishes the understanding of the substratum of abstract. Rasika with primacy for raaga bhaavam, gains richer experience and pleasure with the aid and support of lakshya and lakshana knowledge-at least minimal. Higher the knowledge, higher is the pleasure. Higher the pleasure, higher is the attachment to the raaga bhaavam, independent of the sahithya bhaavam.

When a creative individual, a kavi/poet and also a musician with both the lakshya and lakshana deep knowledge, composes; composes with sahithya bhaavam and raaga bhaavam, has clear intentions-One primacy for raaga bhaavam, Second primacy for saahithya bhaavam, Third, a judicious combination of both saahithya and raaga bhaavam. Musician and Rasika must establish clarity and understanding of the intention of the vaaggeyakara and also total appreciation. Musician has the primary responsibility to express the intent, values in original creativity, becoming his character in creativity with patanthara suddhatvam delivering recall pleasure for one's own and universal experience. Rasika has secondary responsibility in listening and establishing unity with the sense of mind of the musician. Rasikas mind in freedom, freedom from the past, unconditioned, in sensitivity, in observation, in inference, in introspection and with total attention can only establish the unity with the sense of mind of the musician, in creativity and creative offering (s). In this state, the ideals of Karnataka Sangeetham- Ananda, the bliss with SAT, perception of reality and Chitta, pure conscious; manoranjakatvam-sense of mind with pleasure arisen out of manodharma, edifice built on the saahithya and raaga bhaavam, can be truly experienced. In absence of clarity and understanding the state of confusion; in state of confusion, conflict; in conflict, dejection and rejection; in rejection, loss of pleasure; in loss of pleasure, loss of sense of security; with loss of sense of security, anger; with anger, violence-oral and written.

munirao2001

[munirao2001]

KVChellapa Sir

Can you kindly distinguish between raga bhava abd sahita bhava? Is there any other bhava (laya bhava for instance)? Can a musician sing with bhava without reference to meaning?

Raaga bhaavam is abstract in form and in experience. Beauty of rasa arises with true listening-lakshya. The experience with out attachment and conditioning, is distinct, unique and fulfilling. To express the experience, established identity of aspect(s) of bhaavan is required and is resorted.

Saahithya bhavam with akshara only is also abstract in form. Ashara in relationship with other akshara (s), becoming sahithya, expresses the idea, intent , creativity of the creative person. The creative out put establishing the bhaavam, bhaavam in relationship either with the established identity or in abstract form, resulting in interpretation.

Other form of bhaavam arousal and expressions is in analytic, creative imagination, interpretation, establishing identity and meaning, critical appreciation; anew, afresh, not in the established raaga or saahithya bhaava of the original creativity or its creator.

Percussionist does such interpretation and expresses through kala pramanam change or sollus, when in his own zone of creativity.

Musician with realized values of raaga bhaavam, either independent of sahithya bhaavam or in its total absence can emote and express in abstract form. Rasika (s) also has to attain the realization of bhaavam in abstraction. Raaga aalaapanam purely based on the raaga bhaavam establishes this fact. In creativity of raaga bhaavam, musician will not be with sense of mind with saahithya bhaavam. However, it is also a fact that good foundation in saahithya bhaavam enables the creative forays of raaga bhaavam, in relationship with saahithya bhaavam or independently.

munirao2001

[munirao2001]

I want to clear the misconception and misunderstanding on the Bhaavam in Karnataka Sangeetham and Hidustani Sangeet. HM resorts to saahithya and its bhaavam only in bhajan, dhun and thumri. KM has all the three options- raaga bhaavam only; primacy for saahithya bhaavam; equal importance for both raaga and saahithya bhaavam.

I also want to clear the misconception and misunderstanding of TMK, recognized and established maestro. With decades of learning and practicing, achieving and attaining the pleasure of popularity and being in demand, maestro is rest in inner self or conscious, moving away from outer self or conscious and its demands. Maestro is exploring and seeking the bliss in pure conscious and enriched experience, unconditionally, in freedom, sensing the beauty/aesthetic inherent in the form and structure in each of the manodharma creative tools with its own order independent of the established pattern or order with a demand for conformism, a restricted and controlled freedom in manodharma.

Rasika with expectation and demand for recall pleasure, his sense of mind conditioned and settled for pleasure in conformism only, will only be partly served or even disappointed. TMK makes a righteous demand, demand of unity of sense of mind in his creativity and its exploration. TMK is delivering experience of pure and pristine quality in music. The reviews of discerning rasikas are in evidence of this fact.

Rasika also must understand that established authority, e.g. ARI, has also resorted to non conformism, a rejection of the existing system and practice to establish ARI padhati, worked for its recognition and popularity. ARI padhati, in popularity enabling other practitioners to practice and achieve success, with very few exceptions. Every other practitioner while proclaiming the need for conformism to the convention or sampradaya, has also brought in changes also gained popularity. Rasikas also expressing one Great/Maestro as 'Na bhooto, Na bhavishyati', apply this to all the other Great/Maestro/Vidwans/Vidushees of their acceptance and preference without realizing the loss of import of its very meaning.

I beseech rasika (s) to unsettle, uncondition their minds and achieve freedom from the demands of conformism. In freedom, be in the present, experience the happening moment (s). Happening moment (s) in pure and pristine qualities of Karnataka Sangeetha's manodharma sangeetham.

[varsha]

https://www.mediafire.com/?4j0ma0k7py8k8ra
To the business end off bhAvam .
It is just the one element , among all, that cannot be taught .
It is said that the first ones to see Van Goghs portrait of the coal miners ,flinched at the sight of the stinking teeth . The bhavam for which he acquired through years with them.
This priceless video gives us a few clues . Arguably , the most influential (H) musician of our age . I have been witness to Tanjore Sankara Iyer breaking into tears after many a listening bout . The students would have used the interruption to catch up with Sapthahiki on DD and he would turn to me and say : How could they move away from this music while we listened . What is the source of the mystery behind such music

No RSachi , I dont think it is given to us to unravel this thing called bhAva. However much we may try . This sense of a dream and the feeling that we have heard this before is what makes us recognise ourselves , in a brotherhood of sorts . Like the old gentleman at the end of the clip.

[arasi]

Varsha,
Thank you for bringing to us those eighteen minutes and beyond...

[munirao2001]

Varsha

feeling that we have heard this before is what makes us recognize ourselves ,

It is not being in the present happening moment (s), but in the past happened movement (s). In this state sense of mind is engaged and pre occupied with the past, very likely to miss the present happening moment (s) and original creative moment (s) or re creative moment (s) with subtle variation (s), afresh, anew.

It is just the one element , among all, that cannot be taught .

No. Mind can be trained for cognition with the knowledge of the established-lakshana. Variance is only in experiencing it, variance due to the state and sense of mind. Urge to listen arises only with the experience, its sum total knowledge of the bhaava.

What is the source of the mystery behind such music

. It is unity of sense of mind of both the performer and the rasika-raaga bhaava or saahithya bhaava or saahithya bhava and raaga bhaava in unity with the strength of the sahridaya - 'brotherhood' or sensitivity of higher in order. We all know about the Maestro composer, Sri Tanjavur Shankara Iyer and naturally, very sensitive.

munirao2001

[varsha]

We could be from different planets.Me with all my fascinating doubts . And you with answers to everything.
No offense intended .
Let me add , what fascinated me last week
this neraval at
ingitam(e)rigina sangIta lOluni
http://www.mediafire.com/listen/uvt2gkitfa8j2b2/eti.mp3
bonus track for those who like Tadepalli Lokanatha Sarma
http://www.mediafire.com/listen/u4ct1bj ... incane.mp3

[Rsachi]

Varsha,
I heard that interesting recording with the voice and music of Amir Khan with his wife and young kid speaking, too. Thanks! I read up in Wikipedia that he was all heart and a pioneer in the way he sang.

[vgovindan]

What is the source of the mystery behind such music. It is unity of sense of mind of both the performer and the rasika-raaga bhaava or saahithya bhaava or saahithya bhava and raaga bhaava in unity with the strength of the sahridaya - 'brotherhood' or sensitivity of higher in order. We all know about the Maestro composer, Sri Tanjavur Shankara Iyer and naturally, very sensitive.

munirao2001

A performer is not a performer when he is engrossed in his own music, where the existence or non-existence of rasika is of little relevance. He is his own rasika. For a musician who sings for himself or for his ishTa dEvata, audience is of no concern. This is the same as karma mArga as taught by gItAcArya - 'karmaNyEvAdhikArastE'. Please also refer to the statement of the musician Amir Khan in the video posted by varsha wherein he asks - if I do not sing every day (morning and evening) what will I do? That is nAdOpAsana whether knows it expllcitely or not.

Please refer to -
kRti 'rAmAbhirAma' - dhanyAsi - wherein he asks rAma to command him (tyAgarAja) to sing for him (rAma) and
kRti 'dASarathI nI RNamu' - tODi - wherein he states 'bhakti lEni kavi jAla varENyulu bhAvameruga lEru...' those who are adept in poesy, bereft of bhakti, would not understand 'bhAva' - the emotional state....'

I am not advocating bhakti. It all depends on one's own predisposition. But karma for its own sake - read music for its own sake - is the state of consummation where the true meaning of bhAva is understood.

[varsha]

RS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46DNJWHgGSk

I like to think of Amir Khan and Bade Ghulam Ali Khan as the two axes of HM musical expression . Between them they have captured everything that is worth capturing . One a slow tightening clasp of a python . The other , a majestic flight from nowhere , a swoop and a soft landing .

This is an example of the birth of a gharana in our times - Indore . He seems to be just speaking syllables , not singing . But he will haunt you through incarnations .....
Kirana may turn out to be a short lived aberration . The highways take a turn around Indore and move back in diiferent directions to Patiala , Rampur , Jaipur , Agra and Gwalior . Riding on the winds of classical BhAva .
Enjoy every minute of this recording , preferably alone and after eleven pm under a star studded cloudless sky

[munirao2001]

VGovindan Sir,

A performer is not a performer when he is engrossed in his own music, where the existence or non-existence of rasika is of little relevance

To establish the understanding, insight (s) helps. The wonder and beauty of nature-human, with evolved intelligence, in the Mind and Brain works; Kalpana and Kalpita works. Mind has the multi-tasking ability and strength. Brain delivers commands for action or for not acting in relationship with Mind. A performer while performing, does the multi-tasking; Mind with sense of ideation, imagination and creativity, all acts of Kalpana; Brain acts with commands for expression and its delivery, all acts of kalpita. Mind's strength of kalpana is based on the strength of kalpita knowledge, inter play of outer self/conscious and inner self/conscious and inner self/conscious and pure self/conscious. Very rarely, pure self/conscious with the urge and prompting of intuition/instinct, original creative idea and imagination not related to Kalpita. Performer in public is always aware of the existence of rasika, instinctively, also his relationship with the rasika's sense of mind in listening, in appreciation and in enjoyment. Performance based on the Kalpita is with desire to offer re call pleasure of the original creativity. Performance based on the Kalpana and very rare original creativity is in moments of focus on the inner self and total absence of outer self and also of rasika (s) presence. On expression and delivery, awakening , appreciation , enjoyment and fulfillment. Owing to this extra ordinary ability, ability of expressing, communicating, delivering and also imagining and creating, a performer is held in high esteem.

if I do not sing every day (morning and evening) what will I do? That is nAdOpAsana whether knows it explicitly or not.

A musician and a professional musician has to do the saadhana/practice to perform with excellence. With the strength of saadhana/practice, person is with the identity of very good/extra ordinary- Saadhaka. Saadhana and Saadhaka is acts of personal, with motive and desires. When the Saadhaka, rest in pure self/conscious with the perception of Naada and its Visesha or highest quality of purity, its power and energy; Saadhana, in continuum; impersonally, without motive and desire-nirapekshatvata, is Naadopaasaka.

those who are adept in poesy, bereft of bhakti, would not understand 'bhAva' - the emotional state....'

Yes, Bhakthi with deeply felt Shraddha-devotion and reverence and Bhaya, fear of wrong doing only enables perception and realization of bhaava.

read music for its own sake - is the state of consummation where the true meaning of bhAva is understood

Sir, there are two states- one Bliss and the second Pleasure - wherein music is for its own sake, it is in blissful state and music is with determination and purpose, it is for pleasure. Meaning of Bhaava established and is in awareness, varies in degrees of attainment, realization and experience.

[munirao2001]

Varsha,

Please also think of other Great Maestros and legends like Vishnu Digambar Paluskar, Mallikarjun Mansoor and many more....

[varsha]

Yessir .Will do. Thanks