Healthy Rasikas.org down the road

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 03 Aug 2015, 13:26

For Rasikas to survive healthily,I think this is high time the mods step-in in order to save and pump some amicable air into Rasikas forum which was lost completely over the recent times. Sanjay thread was a classic example where you could feel the sadist pleasure people get out of belittling someone , especially a third person, who you do not even know if they would ever read the post. Besides, for activism also this may not be the right place. And no place for troll.
I have kept away from this general discussion for this very reason where you are sometimes dragged unknowingly into a run-in . There are hardly any healthy threads anymore and we have more attackers ambushing from everywhere. There are certainly some who do nothing more than spewing venom and ridiculing post after post well known for their infamy ,and some express that in an infantile manner over and over and over .

Let me put forward some suggestions.

I don’t think we need emoticons. Just a smile would do . NO WINKS , NO SARCASM. It does not serve any purpose and I think it can be restored when civility is restored in this site. Please look into the past threads, it has been used to convey hurting sarcasm and gloat than a little jest which is its actual purpose of existence I suppose.
It is understandable that mods cannot be minding the threads all the time and your time is much behind by several hours, and by the time you read damage is done.

Similar to the thumbs up , we should have two other options in addition to the thumbs up.

1.Irrelevant and unwarranted to the thread with an appropriate emoticon. This conveys a personal opinion.

2. Outright objection and fit to be removed for reasons like malicious interest, mud slinging, detrimental to the healthy development of the thread, or filled personal attack that can be activated by by a red cross sign . X

Now that there will be three options , the third one means extreme resentment and when voted against by five , for instance , 5 people click it the thread automatically gets frozen until the mods can unfreeze it. As a result of this I know often a few might just want freeze everything , but with this system the unwanted talk and retaliation could be avoided . And when you click the freeze it should be such that you cannot write any further too.

Without a weapon to attack and so many constraints you will see a couple already leaving the site disappointed . But without some disciplinary measure I do not see this forum going forward in a healthy manner. I know it may not seem nice to curb the free speech , but the problem is not free speech but dirty talks and personal attacks. And in a small group like this when 5 people objects vigorously to a post , it should be taken seriously. By freezing I do not mean ex-communicating the person but that particular rasika continuing to opinion in that particular thread in the same fashion . I have tried this in my company internal forum and it worked. And those whose only interest was to be passing malicious comments did not find it interesting to continue after a time( naturally ). And those whose intention were to be genuinely critical with a positive outlook remained , but refined their writing in a considerate manner.

I referred two of my friends to sign into the forum and having a glance into some of the posts they did not really want to .

I know that this post will also have immediate attackers , but I don't simply care.

GM

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 03 Aug 2015, 13:54

@gm, if everyone logged in through Facebook, and were required to give their real details, or in an extreme scenario could be iplogged in addition (legality questionable), then things would be very different. Anonymity and the safety of a PC screen and the feeling that you can get away with anything is an intoxication and a very real and researched phenomenon that loosens restraints that are otherwise present in face to face talk. Talking to a person is very different from talking to a handle. This alone will stop most of the trouble.

Nevertheless I've noticed even the lack of anonymity doesn't save some threads from the rage, but mods can handle that and soothe those souls. I also feel that people should learn the art of ignoring the insignificant -- if the "wildlife" isn't fed on attention, it will have to go elsewhere for pastures -- these problems happen in every forum and even Wikipedia. Trash talking musicians is not a new thing and it has been going on all along in the backgrounds of personal talks. Just that the internet has finally allowed us to put everything on the wall.

No point raising the issue of free speech (as if everyone has unlimited freedom to drive on any side of the road) -- CM isn't a music system that panders to the Lowest Common Denominator and I think we need not be apologetic for not compromising on quality even on CM forums.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 03 Aug 2015, 14:07

I acknowledge what you say , and it is well researched too. An otherwise socially respectable person is often said to go down several rung down the decency ladder when anonymity is intact.

But what is also true is when you know that your posts are resented by many, even a congenital bigot will find no meaning to continue as the very purpose of attacking i.e, getting pleasure out of despising someone is being ignored again and again by many people. What the person wants is to be fed back as you rightly said.

This is the reason I suggested an emoticon in between 1 and 3. The one that shows that the post is irrelevant and if several people clicks it , it definitely matters.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 03 Aug 2015, 18:49

By the by , it could be a task to do for the mods. But, it is worth considering and have someone who can be mod to atleast immediately freeze when things get worse.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 03 Aug 2015, 19:15

Youtube has a system where comments that received too many downvotes could be hidden or deleted. On some sites, even the IPs are banned. But @gm, the situation isn't nearly that bad in rasikas by a long shot. Here's a twitter story and you'll be surprised at who the offender was : http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... nted-troll

When I had joined at the very start, I had asked admin a question as to whos who and I got the reply that they didn't know anyone apart from those who used real names and those who choose to identify themselves and those who're well known and been around since prehistory. The very system that cares for the privacy of users' personal data (by which I mean no personal data for hackers to steal beyond a handle

) automatically fosters the anonymity and ironically the best solution is a group where everyone knows who they are talking to at the cost of privacy. Back in the day we only handed invitations to people we knew personally to join up for gmail. I don't see though that these sort of extreme measures are needed here anytime soon. No one can send personal messages except via the admins for one. Hopefully rasikas will never go on the "popular" path and degrade down to the level of Youtube comments.

In the event that rasikas someday loses the "siege of the trolls", we might all have to consider forming a closed group of only known people brought in through personal invitations. Hopefully the apocalypse will never happen. But still I'd suggest preserve anything you found useful over here offline.

But I feel you are already taking the best route : Do not respond. Better, don't participate in such threads.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 03 Aug 2015, 21:55

But, unfortunately , in the ugly battle when they stab each other and few run away frightened I will be left in an empty route . I sense that already .

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Aug 2015, 23:42

I do not have a lot of time to write on this topic, but just briefly, by design we keep the moderating activity quite low. ( even that is too much for some people and in general any moderating activity results in more chaos and some people can not get past the fact they got moderated even for months ).

So what we are talking about here amounts to a lot more interference by moderators. Our tactic till now is, however unpleasant it is, the antidote for free speech is more free speech. It is indeed messy but that is the best sustainable technique known to mankind. Believe me, it is frustrating and that too in a forum that is supposed to deal with the highest level of cultural activity. By the above quoted rule, some people practice the corollary 'the antidote for mud slinging is more mud slinging. And what is even more aggravating is the rationale for such things is 'I call spade a spade' as if we all really want to call a tiger a spider. That is the height of egoism and egotism. The second aspect that is typical of such postings is an exhibition of extreme righteousness and an indignation that arises out of it.

The only lesson to learn is, what we see here is a reflection of the real world and added on top of that is the silly freedom people feel they have due to the anonymity.

Anyways....

One change I have been contemplating is to have a different set of rules for

1) those who join just for the sake of joining in some fierce debates or participate in some controversial topics. ( not allowed to pour gasoline on an ongoing flame )

2) And relax that rule a little bit for those who can establish their identity a bit more concretely instead of being totally anonymous when they join.

These are not going to change many of the battles that is being referred to here since they are among members who have been here for quite a while but can at least contain the problem somewhat.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 04 Aug 2015, 01:18

vk,
I also suggest that you make the participants agree to an undertaking that they are fully answerable for any postings which could be construed as libel.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 04 Aug 2015, 01:26

I have always appreciated your moderating actions, VK, but this time, I disagree with you completely.

vasanthakokilam wrote:I do not have a lot of time to write on this topic, but just briefly, by design we keep the moderating activity quite low. ( even that is too much for some people and in general any moderating activity results in more chaos and some people can not get past the fact they got moderated even for months ).

Why should mods capitulate to the opinions of those who are being moderated? How does it matter that people can't get over it? The last people whose comments matter are those who brawl or write inflammatory posts.

So what we are talking about here amounts to a lot more interference by moderators. Our tactic till now is, however unpleasant it is, the antidote for free speech is more free speech

What is the goal of such a tactic? What gain do you hope to achieve? The only people who claim the right to free speech are the ones who inflame and don't want to be trumped. You are falling into their trap.

Only the state needs to ensure complete freedom of speech because all who are resident in democratic states have to be equally protected. Belonging is neither a choice nor a privilege. And also,which state do we belong to? Rasikas is a private membership group. We can have our own policies and we don't have to accept the brawls we have seen.

The pain Arasi felt in a thread meant to pay tribute to President Sri Kalam is real. Why can't rasikas.org hold its members to higher standards? When Rasikas is discussed outside, I often feel embarrassed. If the group benefits from the postings of its members, why should some be made to feel embarrassed?

Please develop new policies and state it to anyone who is about to post for the first time, including prior members. Everyone who accepts has to check a box and agree. If not they cannot post, and once agreed to, moderating acts cannot be questioned, except through a private email exchange. You don't need to respond to snide remarks online.

It is indeed messy but that is the best sustainable technique known to mankind. Our tactic till now is, however unpleasant it is, the antidote for free speech is more free speech.

No it's not and you are cutting off your own legs.

The only lesson to learn is, what we see here is a reflection of the real world and added on top of that is the silly freedom people feel they have due to the anonymity.

No, it is not a reflection of the real world. Most of these people would behave very decently in the real world. Neither is anonymity the problem. There is a right to be anonymous on the net, and most people have innocuous reasons for anonymity. There is a tendency to talk down to people who are anonymous here, may be because of their unpalatable or sometimes troll-like views, but it is unfair to others who are anonymous for reasons of shyness and privacy. I don't think that anonymity is a big problem here, even known big names can be quite unpleasant. What I mean to say is that when you place the problem elsewhere your solution is not going to be appropriate. The problem is bad behavior and that alone should be moderated, whether it is an anonymous user or a known one.

Anyways....

One change I have been contemplating is to have a different set of rules for

Of course not. You must have the same rules for everyone and everyone should watch their behavior equally. That will take care of those who join with a nasty axe to grind too. Otherwise your moderating will be unfair and arbitrary.

2) And relax that rule a little bit for those who can establish their identity a bit more concretely instead of being totally anonymous when they join.

That would be wrong, and too much work and stress too.

I agree that users should be allowed to flag posts. Flags get a quick check, not a freeze. If it is determined that there is no reason to flag, then the flag should be disabled. Anyone who flags with a vendetta should have flagging rights withdrawn. I have absolutely no clue if such things are possible. But it seems reasonable to me.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Aug 2015, 03:24

Ranganayaki, good rebuttals. Some I don't have to respond because I agree with them, you were linking a few statements that I did not mean to.

But that is not vitally important. I will write about the other aspects on which it is definitely possible to pivot in the direction you are suggesting and what I stated are the current principles ( if at all that ) on which we operate this site. There is quite a long history on this matter as well.

In fact, I should have listened to my own instinct and stayed away from this thread for a few days. I don't want my thoughts to be the primary debating point at this stage but wait to listen to you all first.

So please continue

More thoughts later.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 04 Aug 2015, 06:48

VK

"Antidote to freedom of speech is more freedom of speech?!!!!"

As ranganayaki told freezing means a lot of intervention , but there should be an option to flag a post to mention that it is irrelevant.

GM

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 04 Aug 2015, 08:10

.
Suddenly the woods are silent !

pattamaa · Post by **pattamaa** » 04 Aug 2015, 09:06

and should we have more moderators, to moderate different sections? there are several unhealthy discussions... it is paining to see two doctorates always on fire...i agree with a suggestion that there could be a punching bag section in members and lunge and people can use that section to fight it out... let's have some decency and moderation in other parts of the forumn...

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 04 Aug 2015, 09:18

It only gets ugly when you see a few grabbing the opportunity , shows up suddenly on the thread, tosses out a string of dirty expletives about an artiste or a person followed by emoticons. And then it gets worse.. and then they seem to enjoy more.

This is where I feel that there should be "flag as inappropriate" option. At least it sends a signal to the person that it is not in good taste.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 04 Aug 2015, 09:44

In fact here the problem is less of anonymous issues and we have known members going at it thread after thread on the same topic. You want that to go down? Don't respond, don't read. If it goes overboard, you might have to say something or put a stop, like a thread was locked down a few weeks ago. Sometimes it has to be reminded that we are in a public place and it doesn't look good when highly qualified people quarrel like this. One or two disagreements are fine but this is going on for several threads, even hijacking others. You want your name searched on google only for page 1 to report all these things?

Now when your favourite musicians get hit on -- don't get provoked and rush in to defend your musicians. On the flip side, if musicians say or do things that aren't worth paying attention to don't give that any attention either. In the event of musician bashing, sensibly ignore the post, and if the offender persists, send them a mail. They might stop posting on the thread or on the forum at worst -- but who needs the environmental pollution?

Do remember that musicians are also aware of what many people out there say about them in private or behind the veil of anonymity or the license of seniority. Some of them may even be here as members and never post, you don't know. Some may, but they will not stay if they find the atmosphere degrading. But they are not spending their time answering their "hate mail" or defending themselves out here. You can sensibly downvote or flag the post enough till it vanishes. Time will filter out all the garbage and this will be forgotten.

Another rule : When a newbie with almost no posts spams, it's a sure troll tactic. Sometimes trolls when reprimanded also act like they have been truly wronged and play a victim card. No point letting all that upset us.

I'd suggest you can automate your dislike button to hide a comment that receives too many dislikes (Not that most people have enough energy to click on these buttons anyway).

But don't worry guys, rasikas is not nearly like many other forums where mass appeal has reduced nearly every thread to the level of Youtube comments and even below. To be here and to be around and talking about CM for a long time, you need to be seriously interested in CM with a good level of knowledge and taste and few meritorious people actually have that long term commitment. As a statistics study can you just list out members by the number of posts they have made so far and how long they have been around? That will tell you just how few people there really are.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 04 Aug 2015, 11:01

Srinath I understand and I ignore too. But, you see many good post taking a different shape altogether almost immediately. Say for instance that of RKV and his Kalam meet. I think there it is about Kalam and his good sense of appreciating music. This could have developed into a good post, progressive, could have been even about various notable persons interest for out music, irrelevant to their stature and status. It could have taken a nice shape with anecdotes. I am happy to ignore , but when you ignore and turn off then no threads are going to take off , but only would end like a brawl and , you see, there are beings who know the tactics to get that done, springing all of a sudden with spiteful comments with no relevance to the thread and when that continues you tend to leave the thread.

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 04 Aug 2015, 12:25

The solution is not in moderating but in restricting membership and not allowing posts during the first 2 weeks, moderated posts for the next 2 weeks before allowing full rights.

The forum was at its best during 2008-11 period when we had some wonderful discussions. Threads on Wodeyar , MDR , etc., and we had some high quality discussions by DRS, CML, Arun, Ramakriya, Lakshman and others with some excellent relevant clips by Kulkarni. There were some very heated debates but arguing only the issues. Review section did have some very scholarly reviews by Vijay, Ram and Bharat. Many of the members from that time have decided not to post anymore. In fact we had quite a few musicians posting during that time but the personal attacks have kept them away.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 04 Aug 2015, 13:43

Here are some preliminary stats of the contributions (sorted from the members list in descending order of post count) :

Total members : 7820
>= 10000 posts : Only 4. @vk is at the "bottom" of the list

and even Lakshman sir isn't on it despite the huge size of the lyrics section.
>= 5000 posts : Only 7

>=1000 Only the top 50 members have ever made more than 1000 posts. Even @MKR who is next in line is 11 short. I think that it may be a long time before I even get here. They are well known and these then are definitely long running enthusiasts and they account for just 0.64% of all those registered on rasikas. I do not know if any of them have stopped posting of late.

>= 500 posts : Only 95 . 1.21% of the total membership. Right now I am still more than a 100 posts away from this number! This is where I would probably draw a line (with the exception of musicians).

>= 200 : 173
After page 3 (the 1st 150), I can only recognize the usernames if they are musicians or if I came across them in my time surfing here.

>= 100 : Only 273, 3.49 % of total membership
>= 50 : 471 Only 6.02% of all members

After this it is a slow and steady decline
You will be surprised to know that 7820 - 1296 = 6524 out of 7820 have not made it to 10 posts, some going back to 2005! This is 83% of the total membership

Out of that 6524, 7820 - 1742 = 6078 have not posted 5 times or more. 77.2% of all members!

1 post or below : 7820-3316 = 4504 members . 57.6% of all registered members have posted less than twice!

2782 people have never posted. Which means 1722 members (4504-2782) have posted exactly once.

"Senior most member" - by no. of posts : @arasi -- 13582 !! Which itself is a whopping 2084 posts higher than the next nearest -- @cmlover. It says something as only 27 people have ever crossed 2000 posts TOTAL at all - the last being (late) @gobilalitha

One member in those top 27 has done more than 4504 others combined.

World population : 7,357,569,000 at the time this was visited : http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/

Let that sink in for a minute .... This is truly how small the community really is. Leaving musicians out of the picture, the number of long running fans here are very few and very far in between.

If the quality of discussions is already declining compared to 2008-2011 (when these numbers would have been significantly smaller, then think about how few are the numbers required before compromises begin and the discussions decline. 300 is probably the tipping point ! (No not THAT 300, but still

) By that I mean the number of people with >= 50 posts, which today stands at 471 and which must have been around 300 in 2011.

"Mass appeal" sounds truly scary by this yardstick. We must aim for quality membership, not quantity. Forget the word "mass" altogether.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 04 Aug 2015, 15:02

I have note done the statistics or data yet, but there are only a few regular members who contribute, and if are ready to compromise them to give more freedom to speech, I think this is going to look like a spam forum.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 04 Aug 2015, 15:06

Srinathk, I am unable to suppress my admiration for your bringing a new angle, a well thought one, that directs a discussion to its right course, like a magnet orients the iron filings, on any subject. I am also unable to contain my regret why most of us in India have not picked up that scientific spirit, bothering about what rather than who, as is taught in management lesson. (I provide an example of what I deplore).

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 04 Aug 2015, 16:55

SrinathK: Interesting analysis--sorry I just missed the >1000 posts--I shall try to compensate!!

Seriously though,I have to admit that since I joined the forum in 2009,I have found the posts to be a little polemical offering more "heat" than substance using the coverIMHO(there is hardly anything humble about the post itself!!).
While I relish writing about the personalities-most of my posts are in the Vidwans and Vidushis section,my REAL WISH is that the forum should be an educational tool for "Johnny-come-lately" listeners(I do not mean to disparage this group) to enhance their understanding and appreciation of CM. We have a wide range of topics where there are several thought-provoking posts by Members. But despite this or may be because of it,it is difficult to navigate the site in a meaningful manner--I have missed many a post when the topic just surfaced and by the time the thread grew, and I "discovered" the thread ,it was too late for me to join with my view point . Ofcourse there have been days or weeks when I have not been able to follow the site and the posts and this lack of activity on my part is MY problem!!!

I TAKE MY HAT OFF TO THE ADMINISTRATOR AND THE MODERATORS!!!

If there is a Q and A section,and readers could post their queries,on the various topics,--say Raga analysis,musicians' history etc perhaps some of us in the audience could "attempt' to answer--my primary aim in this is to encourage more people joining the forum and they should be enabled to benefit from it!!

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 04 Aug 2015, 19:06

Small edit : I realized that vgovindan had changed his account at one point. With a combined contribution of 1430 (old account) + 815 (on his current account) = 2245 posts, he is also part of the 2000+club, which brings the count up to 27. Now some people would argue that quantity does not represent quality, which I agree. But the stats are clearly very revealing :

What it shows is that in this kind of field, to be a forum veteran of CM, you gotta have the stuff. You absolutely cannot troll your way to 1000+ posts with the culture we have here. If you got this far, you must be one (or more) of the following -- a moderator or admin, the website founder(s), a composer, a musicologist, a historian, an enthusiast rasika, a good reviewer and concert goer, a student, a teacher, a geek, an organizer or a distributor of vast music collections, a notable contributer of music resources like lyrics etc., or be someone very close to musicians and a musical heritage. If I forgot anything, please let me know.

At this point you will also be personally well known to a lot of rasikas too, so you are beyond just another handle now and a respected person whose credentials are known to many. The very nature of CM's lofty standards will demand it of you. We can all see the contributions made by people and that speaks for itself.

But the stats also show that you may rarely be a very public figure with a mass following. If you are, most of your followers have good tastes. Part of the reason will be that it will attract your critics here, not all of whom will really meet any quality standards and who will just spew negative energy. Another very real possibility is identity theft. I have seen both these happen in the (usually unmoderated) comments section of newspapers and the quantity of "garbage" is directly proportional to popularity, especially "LCD" popularity. I have completely stopped going anywhere near the comments section of any online newspaper -- it makes me ill. Go see for yourself if you can tolerate it. Do you want rasikas to end up like that?

I know that there may be plenty of really great rasikas making their own contributions out there who never joined the forum or have chosen not to, but still, how much higher do you think your veteran count will go up (leave aside musicians) ? So I think in the long run, we don't have to worry except on those days when Mt. Rasikas erupts.

The stats are clear that mass appeal at the cost of quality was never really for Carnatic Music. The best musicians have never compromised on their music, neither should the rasikas.

This site started with just 5 enthusiasts. And today the stats also show that the number of members posting little or nothing is increasing and probably we should examine how many of them make it past the +500 mark. I have also observed that you start getting noticed if you can get to around 200-250 or so. After 300 you are definitely valuable and depending on what you post, potential veteran material.

Not to belittle any body who posts less in the least (please no!) but the bottom line is this -- if we keep to our high standards without compromise, it automatically ensures that troublemakers do not last the long haul, which is really the best way to face the issue of free (a.k.a. loose) speech -- I'm getting tired of those cliched phrases -- I prefer to call it loose speech. If we compromise for mass participation and loose speech, one day all of us will be gone.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 04 Aug 2015, 19:43

SrinathK wrote:
If the quality of discussions is already declining compared to 2008-2011 (when these numbers would have been significantly smaller, then think about how few are the numbers required before compromises begin and the discussions decline. 300 is probably the tipping point ! (No not THAT 300, but still ) By that I mean the number of people with >= 50 posts, which today stands at 471 and which must have been around 300 in 2011.

"Mass appeal" sounds truly scary by this yardstick. We must aim for quality membership, not quantity. Forget the word "mass" altogether.

I lost you here quite completely Srinathk, would you explain?

I don't think restriction periods will even make a dent. All you have to do is wait it out. The members who join only for trolling or brawling on a specific topic are few. Members who want to brawl around an event have only to plan ahead and join earlier. We need determined moderating action and better policies.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 04 Aug 2015, 20:13

Ok. I just posted something above. That ought to explain it. But if it is true that the quality of the forum is declining (I doubt this, what I think happened is that some veterans with lots of depth have left and that is the real cause of the decline), then what is revealing is that it only takes a few hundred contributing members at most before this begins -- few hundred only because the very nature of CM and it's standards mean we need to be really good and enthusiastic to stay on as a long time contributor. I was not talking about 300 Spartans

I don't agree with the idea of a restriction period, otherwise I might not have been able to come here! I suggest, follow the stats and keep a watch instead.

Take a look at the comments sections of the most popular newspapers in India, some of whom are totally unmoderated. You will be sick. It happens almost immediately. That is the cost of "mass appeal". Most of them are hit and run cases making the occasional troll post and fighting there with other trolls because of total anonymity and the fact that no one will bother. It is so bad, so much noise, and it made my head spin so much that I won't be surprised if it is one day termed as a mental illness. Statistically this sort of trouble happens with handles which make very few posts, appear only when there is a hot topic to brawl about and which would never last the long haul if they were expected to make meaningful contributions. It's scary to think this might happen one day to rasikas.

So forget "loose speech". We will not pander to loose speech. Let our numbers remain low -- only those who appreciate a high standard of behaviour will stay on. Just one of these rasikas will do more for the music than 1000s of "handles".

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 04 Aug 2015, 20:38

In rasikas.org, we have a slightly different problem of late -- as someone put it -- veterans in the boxing arena -- which mods have to handle with much more care, otherwise they will just be offended and leave, at the cost of their numerous positive contributions. Still, we can't send the message that because you are a well respected person, you can afford to behave badly either. The only way to resolve this is to raise awareness about things like online disinhibition, not getting provoked or rushing in to defend, firmly insist on no belittling speech -- to gently say that this is not what we expect from respected and known people in a public place where everyone from 10 years old are reading and who may be inspired by you as their role models.

I think this problem happens because this online social life is a new thing and we are still learning (and some of us may genuinely be jerks, god forbid). It must especially be difficult for older people who have more trouble adjusting as compared to some of us and who are more sensitive (in our generation we have seen this so much we don't even bother). In a way this is a good thing, it shows we haven't gone the way of the LCD.

I also feel if awareness has to be raised on ugly issues or disagreements or things that can be improved, it has to be done so with care and balance instead of sounding like a rude condemnation (this is not one's home) -- as it simply drives away the very people who would have otherwise enthusiastically supported the cause. I have not seen a cause that really succeeds by belittling others. As I read somewhere, "I think once before speaking at home, twice before speaking to an audience and three times before writing on Facebook!"

As one article in Wired on the online disinhibition effect concludes, "it would be more chilling to accept that society has only developed as it has because people fear the consequences of following their nastier instincts."

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 04 Aug 2015, 21:32

SrinathK wrote: we don't have to worry except on those days when Mt. Rasikas erupts. The stats are clear that mass appeal at the cost of quality was never really for Carnatic Music. The best musicians have never compromised on their music, neither should the rasikas.

Srinath

I completely disagree with you. I assume this site was not created with a big vision or to be a torch bearer to music, but for people to exchange their musical spirit and knowledge with decorum. The idea may be as simple as to have more people to discuss music , contribute, or even disagree, but politely. Basically a coffee table talk , which is all it is meant to be, has gone down to a brawl. I know there will be a few members who would weather all this, but the point is the pleasure of present day is lost, and it has been ongoing. You do not have to mind a stranger smirking while you are having a healthy conversation. But the problem is when he smokes too and blows the smoke aiming at your conversation, you cannot be unmindful and continue to be a passive smoker. With this analogy , I guess there are some limits in the bars too. Those hired thugs would deal the matter.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 04 Aug 2015, 21:57

@gm, please see post #24, #25.

PS : I think I may have completely missed your intent while focusing on statistics.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 04 Aug 2015, 22:17

I think one workable solution may be to give members the ability to make specific postings or specifc members invisible to them. It's so much easier to not get riled-up, get offended, have blood pressures elevated, or, in general feel anguished if you can't see the posts.
I have no issues with the majority that do not post. I have heard that many of them really enjoy the discussions and do not feel the need to add anything more. The issue comes with those whose posts consistently lead to discord. I wonder if Srinath can extend his analysis to the # of posters whose posts have lead to contentious debates on three or more ocassions - I am sure this will be a smaller group than those with >2000 posts.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 04 Aug 2015, 22:27

srinath I disagreed in a nice way . So do not worry.

Besides, I checked those posts that rshankar has mentioned. And also another notorious discord posting member. It was easy to scroll through and skim only those particular posts. I feel that it is similar to " the guardian article".Seems to get some kick out of it and the emoticons comes very handy.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Aug 2015, 23:06

Reading Srinath's stats posts with a lot of admiration.

It reminds me of a very profound quote 'Without data you are just another person with an opinion'

Without breaking my self imposed standing on the sidelines on the main topic, let me make a general statement. It saddened me to no end in the past when the following happened. With the mischief makers standing by idly and even having a hearty laugh, a lot of fights have erupted among other well meaning members. People have left the forum in a huff on issues related to how to deal with such mischief makers. Just as in real life, there is always a divide between pragmatic folks and principled folks, people who want to solve problems through decisive action vs those who want the system to heal itself etc. Those are all honorable positions to take but mischief makers won the day on a few occasions in the past when such disagreements went too far to the extent people forgot that they have a common objective. (just to be sure, not at all implying that is what is happening here or that is what will happen here, but just wanted to point out what had happened in the past as FYI for those who have not been around during those tumultuous times)

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 04 Aug 2015, 23:22

@rshankar, We can use Youtube's idea of hiding comments (or threads) that receive too many downvotes automatically (to save the mods a huge amount of their time). Then maybe we can track that somewhere where we could see it. The statistics on members I got simply from the database of members over there and counting. We may probably even see who got too many downvotes and upvotes over there too. From my experience on Youtube, it is a very good indicator as to whether a video is really liked or not and despite all the rubbish comments and often deliberate dislikes on a good video, it definitely wins out and you can tell that most people are well meaning. For e.g. this legendary recording of Paganini Caprice #24 has 5.3 million views which could be an all time record for WCM violin videos -- observe the likes and dislikes stats. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPcnGrie__M 23878 likes and 317 dislikes -- This is despite the fact that Paganini may not be to everyone's taste. (Personally, I was STUNNED -- gm, I think being a violinist you might like it)

That is a far more accurate of the value of the video than the quality of the comments. People who like a thread but don't think they can or should contribute can at least like or dislike. We could probably cumulatively add up all the likes and dislikes for a whole thread or topic on the section page and put that as the total like / dislike count for the topic and that will give people a good idea of how it went. The like and dislike count of any particular user is also available to view (already we have it on the forum, just no thumbs down button).

@vasanthakokilam, Also please mail me (privately) about some of these threads where people got so offended they resigned from the forum. I just for myself want to see where it went downhill. Don't worry, my mind has been sufficiently hardened to ignore after recovering from my experiences with the comments sections of newspapers. As an example to what I stated, just look at the comments section on article on Maggi -- rasikas should never end up like that : http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 348400.cms

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 05 Aug 2015, 06:37

Does VK ever read mails? I have not received a reply yet though I have been asking for sometime.

music1234 · Post by **music1234** » 05 Aug 2015, 07:38

Selective moderation that probably happens here.

Posts of CACM, harimau etc gets away from being moderated and there are a few members who support their views which adds fuel to the fire.

I am surprised there is no explanation from CACM in this thread or the homage thread !!

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 05 Aug 2015, 09:28

music1234 wrote:Selective moderation that probably happens here.
Posts of CACM, harimau etc gets away from being moderated and there are a few members who support their views which adds fuel to the fire.
I am surprised there is no explanation from CACM in this thread or the homage thread !!

WHAT EXPLANATION ARE YOU EXPECTING? WHAT I WRITE IS BASED ON BEING ASKED TO WRITE THE TRUTH ABOUT CLEVELAND FESTIVAL (I am a committee member) for over 10 years. I am writing the TRUTH & HAVE TRIED TO ANSWER THE ISSUES RAISED TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITIES. IF YOU HAVE NOT FOLLOWED THE ATTACKS, MISREPRESENTATIONS AND LIES I CANNOT HELP IT. WILL YOU ASK ME SPECIFIC QUESTIONS ABOUT CLEVELAND FESTIVAL? I am interested in presenting the good things that have been achieved. After trying to organise things for over 60 years in India & NORTH AMERICA I am keen the acheivements like over 2000 young persons in N.A. LEARNING CARNATIC MUSIC & Bharathanatyam & other art forms SHOULD NOT GO TO WASTE. I am also interested in setting straight falsehoods about musicians of the GOLEN AGE (194 5-1975) & wroite about that era as it has been the most important period of my life & I have interacted, heard & known EVERY MUSICIAN.
IT IS FAR BETTER TO SAY THE TRUTH, BE CHALLENGED ETC THAN BEING POLITE...... I REALISE THIS IS A FREE FORUM & FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION IS THE BEST THING ABOUT THIS FORUM. VKV

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 05 Aug 2015, 09:34

ganesh_mourthy wrote:Does VK ever read mails? I have not received a reply yet though I have been asking for sometime.

I already asked in the other thread 'What email?'

I just checked, the forum email sending capability seems to be broken. I have alerted the admin.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 05 Aug 2015, 09:47

OK VK, in that tricky thread I have given it with a hint. Our two other deciphering decoders have decoded it instantly.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 05 Aug 2015, 09:59

@vk I got your mail, thank you very much. Must have been a tumultuous era when people where just getting accustomed to the net culture.

I'll tell you my own policy. I have gained a lot out of this site from all the sections and discussions. So I am here for the mutual sharing of the musical experience and I will contribute whatever I can. With that aim in mind, I have also decided to desist from certain types of threads and restrict some of my interactions with handles whom I do not know well and whose past history of posts isn't encouraging -- yes I will see your user profile before I will think of how to respond - I have right from the beginning used only my real name and details all along as I do not believe for one sec I am going to write anything here which I would not like people who know me well to see.

This is probably the 3rd or 4th time where I see members with hardly any posts (that too I know on which topics) are here to force seniors to write down their opinions and this is what starts off the derailment. So I say let's be proactive and bring in the positive energy and contributions we can. Moderation is always going to be a tricky topic and I don't like it to hear artistes being bashed around though I may not always agree with their personal opinions. Especially with seniors we have to be very cautious.

So you want a healthy rasikas.org? We should have more people stepping out of anonymity and posting as themselves, something which I clearly see in long running and well known members but not so much in the 50-100 or below category and especially not below 10 posts. If you will at the very beginning do this with me, I know that the possibility of good discussions in much higher. I don't think I can have a healthy discussion with a handle that appears only in a hot topic where there is opportunity for rage and finger pointing. As far as veterans fighting each other is concerned, if each starts accusing the other of lying, perhaps we should tell them to settle it outside. But as @vk has told me @gm, it is very tricky to deal with such cases and there is very easy room for hair trigger tempers and getting easily offended. That tendency also needs to be overcome.

A little bit of mischief is ok, it brings some colour to what is otherwise very formal. It is malice that I do not seek.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 05 Aug 2015, 10:28

While I got it explained why anonymity, I feel that when expressing strong opinions at least, one must emerge from the veil. When I was corresponding with TMK once, he showed his dislike for the forum as being anonymous. In the bank, there was a guideline not to take anonymous complaints too seriously. They look like hit and run case.
As for moderation, my first reaction is, how much we can expect from the moderators who have their own occupation to attend to. Everyone here, the serious contributors, do it out of love for CM, and lay ones like me enjoy the content immensely.
Perhaps, we can have a voluntary code and see how it goes. Like, no dropping names when quoting private info, avoiding language that shows disrespect, opening a separate thread if the post is a digression, etc.
I apologise unconditionally for my lapses.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 05 Aug 2015, 10:47

As far as anonymity, it was a time when you had to be wary of giving email addresses, name, and other details to a third party forum for the fear that it may not be layered with proper security and may open way to spammers. I guess very few or intentionally anonymous.
And with an option for others to flag as inappropriate I guess there is no moderation work to be done by mods. I value their time. I know there would be these offenders who may just want to flag a few members for retaliation but having a couple dislike is not a problem. When it is serious, I guess everyone would flag it.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 05 Aug 2015, 11:02

I think (i) downvoting and (ii) automatically hiding posts with a certain number of downvotes and (iii) automatically hiding users with a certain number of hidden posts will do the trick.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Aug 2015, 11:56

I am not sure how well "democracy" would actually work. How about a sutuation where some people think that certain artists are gods' gift to music and others, err... don't?

I'm out of touch for last month, and just catching up with the site and thread.

I do think, and always have, that moderators are supposed to moderate. If they claim they can't because of some sort of fall out, then they are just not doing the job. In my experience (never again!) of moderating a much busier forum, one just has to take the flak: it's part of the job.

The current situation where the weight of all this, on a day to day basis, falls on just one person is probably not tenable. I'd suggest that the minimum active-team size would be three.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 05 Aug 2015, 13:11

I totally agree Nick. There shoudl be 3 and one active with IST

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 05 Aug 2015, 17:39

I am with ganesh_murthy on many of the points. We have a few internet bullies and shouters and do not act like seniors IMHO.

music1234 · Post by **music1234** » 05 Aug 2015, 18:02

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 05 Aug 2015, 18:17

Listen, this topic is there to discuss ways of healthier discussions on the forum. This is not the right place for you to be raking up a discussion about the merits and demerits of organizations and musicians. Right now you are ironically bringing to this thread the very example of what we have been talking about - causing an argument to divert the topic towards boxing matters. You have already posted exactly the same thing on another thread, why are you bringing it again here? If you want to argue with vkv sir or anyone and tell them something, please send them a mail or go patch up in person or write to the mods. This is not the topic for this. Please.

Perhaps it's time to have a list of all topics detrimental to the experience of the music put up somewhere as something for us to avoid.

shankar vaidyanathan · Post by **shankar vaidyanathan** » 06 Aug 2015, 09:45

Srinath:

I have read mosts of the posts on this forum and its previous edition over the years. Thanks for your data science work in posts #18 and #22. I think what the data really shows is that with the advent of FB, Twitter, and WhatsApp type social media, pure play websites like our Rasikas.org have struggled in recent years. This is similar to why leading high caliber print media have suffered in subscription. Another trend is that while we have written and consumed tremendous amounts of information about the CM Doyens, very little positive and objective critiquing gets written about current musicians, musical quality, and the state of the art. We do get the Chennai December season reviews and concert reviews at other times. There are few fantastic and knowledgeable writers amongst us but most of us are silent consumers who liked to be quietly enlightened in private. It seems that intellectual and analytical writing with scholarship has noticeably declined. I am of the opinion that the platform (website DF) doesn't lend itself to keeping up with the technology evolution as it feels anachronistic at times. The distractions we face from time to time due to personality differences do not help.

Looking down the road, for Rasikas.org to remain relevant, we may need to innovate and find a platform where the talented Rasikas may have already moved on to. In the meantime, I am thinking of taking down copious notes on what I have learned so far.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 06 Aug 2015, 10:35

The problem is not per se with moderators or the site, it is the problem with few members who at times make the same point again and again and try to sneak in with the same opinion irrespective of whatever thread or topic. Let us also remember it is many a times the same members who make those lovely posts/opinions which are treasures. Many of them with an anonymous handle take a extra jibe as they are anonymous they like to do it . Let us also remember there are also cases where their anonymity is also revealing lot of points which are extremely incisive which that person would have not given if the handle was not anonymous.Per se it is human behavior some are aggressive, some cocky, some gentle , some affirmative etc we just have to live in the virtual world as much as a real world .I think it is all okay as long as we have discussions centered on cm and its periphery (not lungi , idli which we used to have).

Also if any member writes 20 good lines , then 2 obnoxious lines , then another 20 good lines- what do you do , are you asking moderators to do a contextual moderation of going and editing those two borderline obnoxious lines . They have done in the past where it was centered on using unparliamentary language. But they cannot do that contextual and substring edit when the opinion is strong -that would be mistaken by many as loss of freedom of speech. We can also end up with near zero participation of interesting collaborative and communicative personalities. As such any one can crib but there is no fool proof way to do moderation .

Certain things are unpleasant , there will be 5 or 10 who will continue to argue/take a jab/spoil the party etc , but let the rest just ignore. It is bad luck that we lost many active posters - some like jayaram stopped posting due to work, some like DRS who wrote actively had a disagreement, few like ramkumar who decided to stop posting because of he becoming a performing artist and bilahari who decided not to post . The strength of forum is limited count of active posters.

In the past say before 2013 or so any week you open , you will have discussions on vidwans and vidushis, atleast 10 new kutcheri reviews and discussions on ragas and vageyyakaras . I think we have possibly exhausted discussions on ragas , vageyyakkaras etc . Also reviews have come down. So as such we are targeting the same sangeetha kalanidhi thread , Rohan vs Cleveland etc as there are no other interesting threads.

BOTTOM LINE JUST PATIENTLY WAIT SOMETHING GOOD WILL COME TOMORROW AND PLEASE DO NOT LOSE YOUR ENTHUSIASM.

Few points worth pondering by members:
------------------------------------------
# On a side note , many of us have roughly spent about 13 years in sangeetham and rasikas. Perhaps many do not have the same drive to actively post . I dont know the reason, but if those passive retirees have to get to their rhythm and post with the same enthusiasm, we will not be spending so much of energy and time on the few bashing posts . It is just the lack of more posts that makes us go to the same post and keep thrashing the topic. Trust me there were far more bashing threads in 2004 to 2007 then what it is today- but then we had lot of other interesting topics where the drift will move away.

# In the last few years with the advent of more phablets, tablets and phone browsing- many are just reading and the sheer laziness to boot the laptop/pc coupled with us having the same discomfort of writing in tablets and phones just has reduced the count of active writing posters.

# The good role models in the last 2 years are folks like srinathk who are contributing immensely, it is just we need more of those types. I have no clue how to bring them but that needs to happen?

One point worth pondering by srkris
---------------------------------------
# We should continue to give the freedom for some to post with anonymous handles. There are enough anonymous handles who write without malicious intent. But in the code we have to check for duplicate ids . I see what happens is a an occasional trigger by a poster and then with duplicate ids there are more posts joining the attacker building a case that as though more than one person is adding an opinion.

For this what I suggest is for the first 25 posts of all new posters have them in a quarantine period of 2 months, let us track the ip and publish it in forum .Post quarantine remove the ip noise. Sangeetham used to have the ip no , possibly rasikas have to bring it. In short srkris (coders if there are any) must bring this feature. I dont want any coding to change the layout again

- we have already lost lot of critical functions which are still not restored like view topics /posts by a user as part of profile. srkris - go ahead and kill the duplicate ids.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 06 Aug 2015, 12:44

shankar vaidyanathan wrote: ... Looking down the road, for Rasikas.org to remain relevant, we may need to innovate and find a platform where the talented Rasikas may have already moved on to. In the meantime, I am thinking of taking down copious notes on what I have learned so far.

Shankar, there are many forums that still use the forum format. I make no use of Twitter or facebook at all (at least for now, I am succeeding in avoiding them) and still I could fill more than a day with my participation in the forums to which I belong, which, apart from Rasikas, range from Indian culture and travel, through the Indian motor/driving scene, hifi, headphones, to technical subjects such as Linux, broadband, Android, etc. Some of those forums are international and huge. And have young members. The bbs/forum format is very, very far from dead.

rajeshnat, 20 good lines and 2 bad? I don't want to suggest that some sort of puritanical new regime, but editing out the truly offensive is, in my view, certainly to be desired. If the posters don't like it --- they go away.

I don't think that outbreaks of unpleasantness is anything new. I've had "conversations" on rasikas.org which, if I looked at them with a moderators' hat, I would say should have been deleted. Perhaps the other involved parties, in retrospect, might have felt the same! I hope I am less hot-headed now, but we are all human and I do not guarantee absence of ill-thought-out response.

Moderation is for keeping things moderate

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 06 Aug 2015, 18:49

Nick H wrote:
shankar vaidyanathan wrote: ill-thought-out response.

If the only issue was an ill-thought out response, we'd be able to carry on with a few 'mea culpas'...

As I see it, contentious responses are:

1) inflammatory
2) made with malicious intent, and
3) downright rude and nasty

Many of these are not ill-thought out, but actually made with enough forethought, intending to put down/one-up something or someone, and a complete lack of a filter between the part of the cortex where these thoughts arise and the part of the cortex that controls motor function (typing).

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 06 Aug 2015, 19:45

Yes, I agree. Posts that come under your headings should be edited/deleted, and repeat offenders forcibly shown the door. It is the way to stop a forum becoming a dung heap. It has to be done. Or rather, it should be done.