Healthy Rasikas.org down the road

[ganesh_mourthy]

Nick

I never felt the Mea culpa anywhere, but it was " I dare to say this and if I don't who will ..".. either deliver it sarcastically with lot of smileys, and or on a high riding moral horse making moves within their ivory tower.

[VK RAMAN]

"the acheivements like over 2000 young persons in N.A." Credit cannot be entirely given to Cleveland for the whole of N.A. We have a lot of new Immigrants in the 30s and 40s who come with CM background and skill who impart music skills to N.A kids because these kids parents love CM.

[harimau]

Selective moderation that probably happens here.
Posts of CACM, harimau etc gets away from being moderated and there are a few members who support their views which adds fuel to the fire.
I am surprised there is no explanation from CACM in this thread or the homage thread !!

WHAT EXPLANATION ARE YOU EXPECTING? WHAT I WRITE IS BASED ON BEING ASKED TO WRITE THE TRUTH ABOUT CLEVELAND FESTIVAL (I am a committee member) for over 10 years. I am writing the TRUTH & HAVE TRIED TO ANSWER THE ISSUES RAISED TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITIES. IF YOU HAVE NOT FOLLOWED THE ATTACKS, MISREPRESENTATIONS AND LIES I CANNOT HELP IT. WILL YOU ASK ME SPECIFIC QUESTIONS ABOUT CLEVELAND FESTIVAL? I am interested in presenting the good things that have been achieved. After trying to organise things for over 60 years in India & NORTH AMERICA I am keen the acheivements like over 2000 young persons in N.A. LEARNING CARNATIC MUSIC & Bharathanatyam & other art forms SHOULD NOT GO TO WASTE. I am also interested in setting straight falsehoods about musicians of the GOLEN AGE (194 5-1975) & wroite about that era as it has been the most important period of my life & I have interacted, heard & known EVERY MUSICIAN.
IT IS FAR BETTER TO SAY THE TRUTH, BE CHALLENGED ETC THAN BEING POLITE...... I REALISE THIS IS A FREE FORUM & FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION IS THE BEST THING ABOUT THIS FORUM. VKV

You are absolutely correct, sir.

You have an insider's view of what has happened in the CM scene in the USA for the last 55 years and you are a treasure trove of information when you chose to share it. And you have always been discreet about what you wrote so that we can see the positive side of the CM scene.

There are a whole slew of people here who make assumptions about why sponsors go through all the trouble of bringing artists from India. It has to be to make money, an ego trip, etc., etc., etc. Nobody ever thinks that it is out of a sense of community service, of enriching the lives of expatriate Indians, of trying to inculcate in the next generation growing up in the USA a sense of what their cultural background is.

I know how many of the pioneering sponsors -- by this I mean those who started sponsoring US tours in the very early 1970's or even earlier -- sacrificed their time and money not just for CM but for community organisations which supported group activities such as get-togethers for Pongal and Deepavali, monthly Indian movie screenings, starting/serving on boards for constructing Hindu temples, etc. When you put all those together, you get a full picture of what motivated these pioneers.

People who came some 25 years ago to the USA -- when there was more than one Indian grocery store in even remote little towns and several hundred students at the local university -- have no idea what it was to be like when there were maybe 20 Indian students in your university if you were lucky. They have no idea of what isolation we felt when we landed here and how we looked forward to those monthly movie screenings or the community Deepavali celebration. We were the pre-VCR generation, the pre-PC generation, the pre-cell phone generation, the pre-Internet generation. We were grateful to those who brought us together on occasion through CM, bhajan sessions, proto-temples in some basement, etc.

People landed in the US with $8 in their pockets. Compare that to some code coolie whose ticket is paid for by his employer, has $1,000 in his wallet, and a cell phone to make inexpensive calls to India. They tell us now that they could very well do without the efforts of people like you. What effrontery!

I see RED when I read some inane comments by ill-informed people on this board about how a cultural organisation should function or how any cultural function should be run. I am actually quite restrained in my comments considering that my favourite way of expressing myself would be to use the language used by master sergeants of the US Army when addressing raw recruits.

[harimau]

"the acheivements like over 2000 young persons in N.A." Credit cannot be entirely given to Cleveland for the whole of N.A. We have a lot of new Immigrants in the 30s and 40s who come with CM background and skill who impart music skills to N.A kids because these kids parents love CM.

Yeah!

Read my previous post.

And shut up already.

[cacm]

"People landed in the US with $8 in their pockets." Harimau.....
TO try to attempt to inject some humor combined with facts- I cannot come anywhere near you as you are a NATURAL at it- in my own case I landed with $5 at JFK- USED TO BE CALLED Idelwield AT THAT TIME- & $1.25 HAD TO BE GIVEN TO CARY TRANSPORTATION+$ 1 TO TIMES SQUARE MOVIE THEATER (to escape the 90 degree temp!) +$2 to Horn&Hadart the first ever automated cafetaria( in the World!) leaving me with $0.75 for emergencies!
I did not know any one except the famous Scientist Prof. E.C.G.SUDARSHAN & fortunately he sent me train fare thru' Western Union from Rochester (also let me stay in his Post-Doc Apt for a month with his wife Lalitha EDUCATING me about life here & THO' E.CG. TRIED HIS BEST TO DO LIKEWISE IN PHYSICS my level was at the level of the bottom of Atlantic Ocean & he was hovering in the Stratosphere) for me to reach Rochester....My case is similar to MANY OTHERS....VKV

[cacm]

"the acheivements like over 2000 young persons in N.A." Credit cannot be entirely given to Cleveland for the whole of N.A. We have a lot of new Immigrants in the 30s and 40s who come with CM background and skill who impart music skills to N.A kids because these kids parents love CM.

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU. MY comments had to do with Cleveland Aradhana as that was the thrust of the discussions in the postings.

YOU will be happy to know that close to 40 percent of the presentations in the Aradhana are devoted to students (& their teachers). Actually EVERY YEAR we search & requests INPUTS from the MARVELOUS teachers & organisations & present an award to the BEST TEACHER..
As a historical account I might add that originally (Starting in 1959 TO MY KNOWLEDGE)Tamil, TELUGU, Kannada, Malayalam, Tagore Society & N.Indian organisations used to JOINTLY PRESENT ARTISTS & I was involved myself in ALL THESE ORGANISATIONS & PRESENTATIONS . In the late seventies onwards the influx of Indians dramatically increased & all the previous efforts of MANY MANY GOLDEN ERA POINEERS IN INDIAN ARTS + CHANGE IN IMMIGRATION RULES+ SKYPE etc began to bear fruits & today the are ENORMOUS NUMBERS OF TEACHERS & SCHOOLS.
Still as one who has been involved in such activities myself since the fifties I CONTEND CLEVELAND HAS BEEN THE MAJOR FACTOR IN THE DRAMATIC INCREASE TO THE THOUSANDS& MORE RANGE OF STUDENTS WHO ARE SERIOUS ABOUT OUR ARTS& CULTURE..
Actually I PERSONALLY ATTRIBUTE THIS TO THE EFFORTS OF CLEVELAND V.V.Sundaram AND HIS FORESIGHT in realising & tilting towards the YOUTH IN A MAJOR WAY & ASSURING THAT THE FUTURE IS INDEED VERY BRIGHT....VKV

[VK RAMAN]

Why don't you do this, do that, people are 90%. One who is dedicated/committed stand alone person does miracles not only in personal life but also in public interest. So long that person does it, honey bees will flock him, criticize him thanklessly.

[cacm]

[quote="VK RAMAN"]Why don't you do this, do that, people are 90%. One who is dedicated/committed stand alone person does miracles not only in personal life but also in public interest. So long that person does it, honey bees will flock him, criticize him thanklessly.

FOR THE SAKE OF HONESTY & TRUTH EVERYTHING I WRITE HERE ABOUT CLEVELAND is written by me ON MY OWN & I DO NOT CONSULT WITH ANY ONE ELSE IN THE ARADHANA COMMITTEE. THEY ARE TOO BUSY WITH REAL PROJECTS! VKV

[SrinathK]

<Facepalms>

[cacm]

<Facepalms>

CAN I EXPOSE HOW IGNORANT I AM? PL DUMB DOWN & EXPLAIN WHAT <Facepalms> means? VKV

[Ranganayaki]

From Wikipedia:

""A facepalm (sometimes also face-palm or face palm) is the physical gesture of placing one's hand flat across one's face or lowering one's face into one's hand or hands. The gesture is often exaggerated by giving the motion more force and making a slapping noise when the hand comes in contact with the face. The gesture is found in many cultures as a display of frustration, disappointment, exasperation, embarrassment, horror,[2] shock, surprise or sarcasm.[3]"

[arasi]

VKV,
In days of yore in tamizh, there used to be an expression: kappal kavizndu pOnadu pOla (as if your ship has sunk). That's one face palm. There can be many more. aDa kaDavuLE! (Oh, god!) is another one. There are any number of shades to that expression--mild to extreme.

Possible that it could even mean--a namastE?

Note: I have only gathered some examples for you for the expression's meaning. Commenting on it, I am not...

Ranganayaki,
Our posts crossed:)

[rshankar]

kappal kavizndu pOnadu pOla

A tangent - forgive me - but Arasi, your quote reminded me of what my mother used to say - 'kappal kavizhndAlum kannattil kai vaikkAdE'!
But Srinath - despite that advice, I agree with you totally, that this does call for 'face-palming' - maybe even a gumbal ODa (collective) face-palming?

[cacm]

Dear Ranganayaki & Arasi, Thanks for trying to help me out......It is TOO PROFOUND & BEYOND MY LEVEL!

[Ranganayaki]

Dear Ranganayaki & Arasi, Thanks for trying to help me out......It is TOO PROFOUND & BEYOND MY LEVEL!

Sri VKV, it is really not all that complicated . Namaste is not implied. It's like saying,"Haiyyo, Rama, Porum pa.." - the palm hitting the forehead expresses the frustration everyone feels. If you try it you will get the exact feel of it.

This is a variation: https://static.orain.org/allthetropes.o ... m_5452.png Or this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facepal ... statue.jpg

[SrinathK]

Now, before I may be misunderstood or anything, I've taken the night to let things sink in and then an idea clicked -- When you avoid knee jerk reactions and give some time for your brain to incubate the experience in calmness, you get much better ideas. Here's a winning deal for us all.

There was once a thread that started with the potential for becoming something epic : http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... th+america

It needs more love. It need not be a serial history by any means (that will take as much effort as writing a book). Instead just one anecdote after another like the ones you have shared here -- past present future, anything that comes to mind. We readers will integrate it all ourselves. I may suggest copying (not moving) the above anecdotes to that thread -- let the original copy stay. We grandkids like nothing more than a grandparent's stories (having lost my own grandfather recently who was a big encouragement to my musical tastes and who could narrate so many anecdotes of his musical experiences as a rasika till he fell ill). I feel this may be a positive suggestion.

Also, I would seriously suggest making it sticky so that it always remains near the top and allow only selective posting (or heavier than usual moderation where every post in that thread alone is inspected for spam before posting) in that thread by those who are truly associated with the scene (to prevent mudslingers from distracting so that the RIGHT people can post freely there and we feel like coming and reading it without getting put off). It has potential and I would not like to see it getting derailed.

I can tell you when a thread with great positive potential gets derailed in mudslinging and "promotions", it feels similar to what happens when you are in a concert and in the middle of a great alapana a few people behind you suddenly cause an argument about <insert any topic>. It only gets worse when I go to concert after concert only to experience the same thing. (And it HAS happened often at real concerts too). That moment, I don't care about what they were talking about. All I will remember is that my musical evening was spoiled and you have gone down in my eyes. And without being an ip expert I can guess that the forum has the problem of multiple anonymous ids where one mudslinger pretends to be five, but their writing gives them away.

As to those anecdotes above, despite it being off topic, I can't stop reading them either and want to hear the next one. In the absence of a proper book, otherwise the true tales of the efforts, sacrifices, difficulties and the success stories may never be told, all ultimately for the love of a music supported by few. And there are not many people around to tell us the story.

I will get back to talking about forums and technology in the next post.

[arasi]

Ah, Srikant, surprise! I nearly posted something but changed my mind about it, and it seems as if you are responding positively to what I had in mind

With all the agitation we have had of late, everything had become 'kalanda kaTTi'--an unrecognizable, messy slop! The scene was confusing and conflicting that we were sailing away from many sensible things?

One of the oft used expressions on Rasikas for throwing the good out with the bad (baby with the bath water, of course!) has been recurrent during these times, but there you are with your post!

The fog is lifting, it seems...

[vasanthakokilam]

a complete lack of a filter between the part of the cortex where these thoughts arise and the part of the cortex that controls motor function

Well said. It applies to so many functions.

And then there are those who put amplifiers between those two cortices which blasts some unpleasant noise through the universe.

Best such filter is a delay timer. Take a break, walk away and come back in a few hours and deal with it then.

[ganesh_mourthy]

VK
who do you want to walk away and comeback, the amplifiers or the listeners?

[vasanthakokilam]

G_m, not sure if I got your drift...but...I meant the ones who do not have a filter between thought and action. Put a delay filter. Applies to all walks of life. But, yeah, if there is an amplifier between the two, the listener needs to walk away

[rshankar]

@VK
Here is one place where 'tAmadam tagAdayyA' doesn't work, and should morph into 'tAmadam tagumE ayyA'!

[Nick H]

Think before posting, or words to that effect, is written on almost every forum that I have ever belonged to. People do not always take the advice. I have not always taken the advice.

If nobody ever broke the law, there would be no need for police...

[SrinathK]

I have read mosts of the posts on this forum and its previous edition over the years. Thanks for your data science work in posts #18 and #22. I think what the data really shows is that with the advent of FB, Twitter, and WhatsApp type social media, pure play websites like our Rasikas.org have struggled in recent years. This is similar to why leading high caliber print media have suffered in subscription. Another trend is that while we have written and consumed tremendous amounts of information about the CM Doyens, very little positive and objective critiquing gets written about current musicians, musical quality, and the state of the art. We do get the Chennai December season reviews and concert reviews at other times. There are few fantastic and knowledgeable writers amongst us but most of us are silent consumers who liked to be quietly enlightened in private. It seems that intellectual and analytical writing with scholarship has noticeably declined. I am of the opinion that the platform (website DF) doesn't lend itself to keeping up with the technology evolution as it feels anachronistic at times. The distractions we face from time to time due to personality differences do not help.

Looking down the road, for Rasikas.org to remain relevant, we may need to innovate and find a platform where the talented Rasikas may have already moved on to. In the meantime, I am thinking of taking down copious notes on what I have learned so far.

Your pertinent post needs a detailed discussion. Now there may be the advent of FB, Twitter, Whatsapp and social media and the rise of smartphones and tablets. Nevertheless I doubt if they can replace forums. Because they have their limits and were not designed for forums. I'll share you my experiences. I warn you beforehand, this post is LONG, LONG... there are so many things to consider

1) Their serial posting means they are good for sharing a recording or a link every day (which is what I see they are being used for and which they excel at). As far as I have seen Facebook and Twitter are utterly useless in their current form for multi topic and multi dimensional discussion. NO THREADS! NO CATEGORIES! NO SEPARATE SECTIONS FOR COMPOSERS, LAYA, RAGA, MUSIC RESOURCES.

2) Those who comment on a post are simply not in the same position as a fellow poster on a forum. On whatsapp, there are limits to how many people can participate. On FB, whoever sees the post simply gives a bit of feedback and then goes to read the next post.

3) Old wall posts go down and are finally buried altogether, out of sight, out of mind. You access a profile page from back to front. There is no good way to access them at will, no page splitting, no editor. Poor searchability. No sticky threads. No question of threads with hundreds of posts at all. Social media is designed for today's hot topic, not for the benefit of posterity. News feeds are useless as they will tell you everything about what everybody is sharing rather than exclusive focus on musical matters.

4) The nature of a wall post or a twitter link restricted to 140 characters and the "convoluted" system of following and unfollowing means they are utterly useless for serious in depth discussions. Though FB does offer privacy and a potential for eliminating the anonymity.

5) With tablets and phones, the typing experience is not nearly comparable to a true keyboard. Zero tactile feel, only thumbs (warning : Exclusive use of thumbs will cause nerve and tendon damage), much less typing speed, bloody AUTOCORRECT . I cannot type my long and involved posts ever with some of those. It's obvious that media optimized for these is only meant for apps, short posts or link sharing. Technology may have evolved, but handheld devices will only truly take over when you can type with your thoughts.

6) I have come to conclude that most of the posters who have seldom posted : a) Come here to read b) Come here for links and resources -- Links can be easily shared over Whatsapp, FB and Twitter. Few people may actually dare to troll given the culture here -- they won't survive for long.

7) A one to one chat while it CAN be very useful is a very different thing from a group discussion.

8) The reviews section will be active as concerts keep happening. But maybe we are pushing our trivia and technical knowledge to our limits now and some veterans have left. So we may be really running out of topics. The only people who can share more are musicians, students and people close to musicians. But musicians are unlikely to come here as the internet means their "audiences" here are no longer behaving like audiences.

9) Vintage musicians are the stuff of legend since they only survive in memories and through their music. Current musicians are still humans in flesh and blood and will not command the same lofty platform in the eyes of many rasikas. I have had my fair share of experiences where some old timers look down on the current musicians who are much younger to them -- for them their mental image of older musicians is more perfect than any real human being can hope to achieve. Therefore current musicians will attract more gossipers. It happened back in those days too, but there was no Facebook or twitter or newspaper comments back then (thank goodness). As events fade into memory, only the best of what those musicians offered has survived time, their personal ups and downs and qualities that made them "not so above us all" of no value to those who will never experience them in person, and this reinforces the "golden era glorious past image." That creates a bias against current musicians.

Regarding writing about the current state of the art, tell me when it doesn't inevitably degrade into mudslinging?

Furthermore, when a musician is willing to come out and face the public, the "critic" can remain anonymous and this to them smacks of a complete lack of integrity and double standards, and sometimes even basic manners. Anonymous criticism and gossip on the walls only reinforce their perception that <excuse me> "It takes serious dedication and years of toil to perform, while any fool who can't spell 5 words in a row correctly can criticize and attack if a net connection is nearby". Why will they come here? All their time and energy is more usefully spent on their profession. They are here only for those few souls they know well and who really matter, not for the handles.

10) Rasikas have started a trend of going for sharing links to recordings and resources. Rasikas is no longer competitive with Facebook or Youtube or even dropbox in the matter of sharing recordings and videos. By which I also mean people can share anything in private that we would not be able to do here. That also raises the question of how many rasikas have turned away from forums and are busy uploading and downloading recordings, now that the net speeds and plans allow for massive amounts of filesharing.

11) Some of our seniors are only getting older. It may be very difficult for them to sit up and type.

12) As a music student, I feel concert reviews are MASSIVELY short of their true potential of dissecting music in depth, unconstrained by newspaper space limitations -- this however requires massive effort which cannot be done by a reviewer with their available time and energy. This will only attract serious music students and teachers who were present in that concert -- if you were not there, reading about it is only as useful as reading a song list (which btw is still very useful for my current project). But Yes. Reviews are mainly news items.

All in all, forum media is not going to go anywhere soon.

13) Now you tell me, how many rasikas and music students around my age or younger are here? That's a major worrying sign for the distant future.

Even if students came here, I doubt if their guides and guardians would approve. (Even I wonder about myself being here, what people who know me might think if they recognize who I am). If I dare to write a review today, will I go from music student to music critic? And will I ever be allowed in music class tomorrow?

[VK RAMAN]

I believe a singer is a learner and student all the time to keep up with the trend, ragas, etc and age is not a barrier IMHO.

[rajeshnat]

Srinath - nice points on the problem statement. Just few more points from my side

Back then :
----------
In early days from 2002 to 2007 with more active posters and without the advent of intense facebook / whatsapp/blog participation all artists directly and indirectly with many of their fans felt the only way to express is thru rasikas . There was bit of vested interest and exclusivity where this site is the only place to get content about CM.

In the recent years
---------------------
Every artist wants exclusivity. The artists prefer to have a walled garden where posting preferably happens in their facebook, in their blog etc. So as such artists wants posting only in their facebook/blog and may be for more brand imaging and there is just a link pointed out here as there are still most eyeballs here.

Taking these few steps will help:
--------------------------------

1. When Kellogs and colgate itself is branding year on year despite being there for 100 years , Srkris and all of us have to come out of the shell and start taking steps to brand rasikas.org . We have to reach out to more new fresh blood rasikas. we have to ask sabhas and others to announce rasikas.org website along with introduction of artists . Recently For The Aishwarya Venkataraman concert - here in Los Angeles ,I talked with many in audience just 1 or 2 knew rasikas,rest did not know.

2. Srkris has to work on elimination of duplicate posters as mentioned before.

3. Some thing on the search has to be done. No progress has happened on it from day one . THe posts are buried if people donot read it daily they will never see the treasure. We have to do more technical work with search.

As such I am pretty sure over the years folks will be fed up with 200 facebooks of 200 artists with 200 blogs and they will come here as it is not content rich with multiple one liner comment for every post . Threaded Bulletin board is the only best way to have more content and meaningful contextual discussion as long as More and More are WILLING TO WRITE AND NOT JUST READ.

[priyaram78]

UAE has many carnatic musicians but very few know about rasikas. I ask many to join rasikas.org but more has to be done to create awareness about this wonderful group.

[vasanthakokilam]

I am liking the subtle turn this thread is taking. It is along the lines of what is it we can do as members of this site so it does not lose its relevance in the future.

There is a genuinely simple theory which is quite useful in my work life. It is termed 'Jobs to be done'. It is a Hardward business school thing but at a conceptual level, one does not need to be a Harward MBA to practice it. The question to ask is 'Why are people hiring a product/service?' It is fascinating to learn that the answer is not what you think it will be and knowing the real answer(s) to that question will help you know who your real competitors are and it will help you deliver the right product/service in the right manner. For example, Netflix CEO Reed Hastings recently said (http://www.geekwire.com/2013/netflix-ce ... ame-money/) that 'Netflix isn’t just competing against other streaming video services like Amazon. It’s also competing with other ways people can spend their leisure time at home'. That is a statement that comes straight out of 'jobs to be done' theory. The job Netflix is doing and what people are hiring Netflix for is about people spending their leisure time.

That may look straightforward and it is in this case, but in many cases it is not so obvious. Another famous example is when investigated as to why adults are buying Smoothies ( the viscous drink ) in the morning when it was originally targeted as a 2-4 P.M. kids drink, the results were surprising. Adults who have a half an hour to 45 minutes commute were picking them up in drive through on their way to work since it gives them company for the entire drive. Coffee or Coke, because they are too dilute, does not last the full trip. So the viscosity of the smoothie satisfied the real job the drink was doing namely 'provide company for the driver'.

We need to ask the same question about rasikas.org. What are the 'jobs to be done' by this web site and what are the members and visitors hiring this site for? Some are easy to guess: Social interactions, learning, information, getting music referrals, learning about upcoming events, reading about reviews.

What other job does the site needs to do that people can hire it for. ( the terminology 'jobs to be done' and 'hiring it for' may seem weird at first but go with it for now, it pays to think along those lines ).

This does not mean that the site is here to simply satisfy the known 'jobs to be done'. This theory is also successful in coming up with things that the consuming audience did not even know they will enjoy hiring this site for. Such things can be figured out , though not easy or trivial, once we really dig deep into real needs, wants and desires of people who visit sites like this. It will be an abstraction of one or two levels higher than the ones listed above. A stretch for illustrative purposes is: 'it helps us be in touch with what made us happy in our formative years'. In that sense, music is just a means to an end. It may be the fact when we were trying to find our balance and passion when we were young, we belonged to a group of like-minded people and the thing that linked them was an interest in CM and it gave a sense of belonging and identity. If you go with this line of thinking, then the job this site is doing is re-creating that comfort level. ( this is just an example, so do not take it too seriously, but to illustrate that the real 'jobs to be done' can take so many different forms )

This also informs us that a vision statement as to what this site is for will be a musical one but will have to reflect directly or indirectly this 'jobs to be done'.

[SrinathK]

One thing you can do is to make the search facility accessible to all. Also I wonder if there is any reason why rasikas resources are not google searchable. Also since @rajeshnat mentioned about rasikas being a resource site before, I think we can expand on the Internet resources section -- one website per topic policy. All other resource sites are found on google. Step 1 in brand marketing. (Although let me tell you, we are closer to cottage car makers like Pagani then we are to Maruti or Toyota, our products are more like a Mclaren F1 than a Maruti 800). Why do you think the very best cars are never advertised?

I also think people aren't using the various sections of the forum well enough. Virtually everything happens on general discussions.

Here's from the lounge : http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=25803

I doubt if rasikas posting will ever be that feasible on smartphones or tablets -- the limitations of the hardware are the problem. But one can always search and browse.

[Nick H]

rasikas resources are not google searchable.

Really? That's unbelievable (but seemingly true, I just tried): Google is how most people find most things on the net. Google is exactly the way that people who do not know about sites like this find them!

If the door is closed to Google, then it is closed to the world, and nothing else matters.

[ganesh_mourthy]

Often we talk multiple ID from same IP. What if two people from the same family use Rasikas or from the same office? It is very unlikely for Rasikas.org but we cannot rule out the possibility.

[VK RAMAN]

Some times when I google for lyrics, Forumhub pops up and Lakshmanji contribution there can be seen. What did they do differently?

[SrinathK]

SrinathK : rasikas resources are not google searchable.

NickH : Really? That's unbelievable (but seemingly true, I just tried): Google is how most people find most things on the net. Google is exactly the way that people who do not know about sites like this find them!

If the door is closed to Google, then it is closed to the world, and nothing else matters.

This is our first major task at hand then.

[vasanthakokilam]

btw, the google problem is a known problem for a while. I will alert srkris again.

For whatever it is worth ( not much ) Bing works!!

On the multiple Id s with the same IP, it is a cat and mouse game and so I do not want to say a whole lot about that in public but we do have such tools and do use them for enforcement!! They all have their limitations as some of you have observed.
It is just one aspect and it needs to be used
along with other layers of techniques and data that may be available.

[Nick H]

For whatever it is worth ( not much ) Bing works!!

LOL

duckduckgo?

[ganesh_mourthy]

...other techniques and data available? Oh you are scaring us !!!

OK we are not in Texas, may get shot for using multiple IDs if we were in Texas and the admin went on a shoot out spree with a gun.

Jokes apart, in a forum like this I think that multiple ID from same IP is not possible to be two genuine persons. I think we are some just 30 actively participating with a clear marked territorial radius of 100 sq miles at least. Except a few may be in Mylapore living closer. Max 3 or 4 .

[VijayR]

VK,

A couple of suggestions...

(a) Nowhere in the website's "Terms of Use" does it say that a person cannot have multiple IDs. As it currently stands, the people with multiple IDs have not violated any terms of the forum. If srkris, you, and the moderator team decide that the practice of multiple IDs is to be frowned upon, we should first state that explicitly in the "Terms of Use". Doing so will give the moderators justifiable cause to take whatever action they want to...

My own thoughts on this topic are somewhat mixed. First, I can state with certainty that it is impossible to police this. To those who disagree, please look up the term "web proxy". Second (and perhaps more importantly), I am not convinced that this "should" be policed in the first place. We talk so much about "open forum", "free speech", etc. I find myself hesitant to clamp down on something that I think is, in the end, harmless (it certainly adds noise and confusion, but nothing more and nothing less). I don't know of any other web-forum that even tries to clamp down on this.

(b) I think it is absolutely critical for the forum to allow users to edit and delete any of their own past posts at any point in time. With all this talk of indexing to search engines, I am convinced that this has become an absolute necessity.

I had this discussion with srkris (offline, through email) a couple of years ago. While he was very kind to hear me out, he pretty much ruled out enabling this feature, except allowing post deletions on a case-by-case basis. If I recall correctly, the rationale was that the continuity of a thread will get broken/disrupted if posts in-between are deleted subsequently after replies. Fair point, but, in my humble opinion, that is nowhere close to being important enough to override freedom of choice. If I am free to post what I want, I should also be allowed to delete it. To me, an open forum means that users are free to join the forum, free to post their thoughts, free to edit their posts, free to delete their posts, and free to leave the forum --- ALL of the above and not just some. Facebook/Twitter/(insert your favorite social network here) all allow users to edit/delete their past posts without any limitations. I have to say that this is the single most important reason that my posts to the forums have been few and far between (just indicates how strongly I feel about this). Perhaps the mods can reconsider, although I completely understand that no matter what the mods do, there will always be someone who is not satisfied...

[Pratyaksham Bala]

I think it is absolutely critical for the forum to allow users to edit and delete any of their own past posts at any point in time. With all this talk of indexing to search engines, I am convinced that this has become an absolute necessity.

I second it.

[kvchellappa]

It looks democratic, but subsequent posts on it may hang in mid-air.

[Nick H]

VijayR, Pratyaksham Bala; I have seen damage that could only be described as vandalism, on another forum, because people were able to go back and delete their posts at any period of time. It is a freedom that really does not work in "real life." On other forums, you will find greater, not lesser, freedoms of editing and deletion.

The use of multiple IDs usually comes down to the question why. If it is done for trolling, or other offensive reasons, it is likely to be noticed, and should be acted upon as the moderators see fit. Probably, yes, it should be in the rules!

[VijayR]

It is a freedom that really does not work in "real life."

Nick: I'm sorry, I couldn't disagree more... Do we really want to go down the path of (a) arbitrating what freedoms work in "real life" and what don't, and (b) only allowing the freedoms that a small group has determined works? As in most real-life situations, nothing good can come of that...

Of course, the moderators can say that it is their decision and if one don't like it, one can stay off the forum. It is a perfectly reasonable stance to take... but, my point was just that one can't do that and also claim "free and open forum". That would be like having the cake and eating it too.

[SrinathK]

Please do keep the ability to edit one's posts. I cannot count how many times just after posting I have felt the need to improve and fine tune it here and there, or even split it into parts. For serious writing the ability to go back and reflect is very much necessary.

I have only on 2 or 3 occasions seen people deleting their posts. One is that occasional problem of duplicate posting (usual culprit is accidentally triggering the back button and assuming the post is lost, then going forward and clicking the submit button). Only once (in fact just a few posts ago on this thread) has someone actually taken down the post as it wasn't healthy. So keep the option, though I think you will very rarely find people using it. If you indeed do this very frequently then I might see it as something strange (????) But as NickH pointed out, if we all thought thrice before putting up a comment here I don't think we ought to be really bothered about the issue of deleting our posts. It has been said often that the best solution to online privacy is not to put up anything you feel shouldn't be there -- especially if Google has indexed your site. From that point of view we may not be considered truly "open", but then we do not complain about driving on the right side of the road either, do we? Speech is a powerful thing.

Robert Burton, in 1621, in The Anatomy of Melancholy, stated: "It is an old saying, A blow with a word strikes deeper than a blow with a sword: and many men are as much galled with a calumny, a scurrilous and bitter jest, a libel, a pasquil, satire, apologue, epigram, stage-play or the like, as with any misfortune whatsoever."[23] After listing several historical examples he concludes: "Hinc quam sit calamus saevior ense patet",[23] which translates as "From this it is clear how much more cruel the pen may be than the sword."[9]

[vasanthakokilam]

Couple of points.

Vijay, a lot of what you write is for the Admin to make a decision on and not I, but you are right on one thing. It is impossible to make everyone happy. You feel the very few rules we have are not to your tastes and personal principles. There are others who think we do not clamp down enough at all. Philosophically, I am closer to your side ( though not all the way) but the volume on the other side is much louder. This has always been the case, for the past 10 years. People have been unhappy, sometimes quite vocally so.

Let us leave out the multiple id issue for now. We are talking about that here because of some recent accusations which can not be proven through normal means. It is not a big problem otherwise currently. Vijay, point taken about updating the TOS.

On the edit-ability, we used to have it unrestricted. There were so many serious problems with it, and hence it was switched to the current scheme. I thought there was a day or so time period up to which the poster can edit their posts. May be that went away in some update. That is something we can consider. Such a policy is not unusual for forum based web sites. I understand why you do not want to enter something in a form put up by a web site which then writes it to its own database and not allow you to change it ( I am sure you know this, but on the internet, even if you edit it, it does not mean it has gone away. archive.org for example may have crawled it and keep a timestamped copy of what you wrote. Anyway that is a different point but I thought I will put that in here for those who do not know about it ).

This policy is not based on any deep principles, but just vanilla practical considerations. But the final decisions on such things are srkris's.

[VijayR]

VK,

Point taken -- Put 6 CM rasikas in a room and you'll get 7 opinions. I did not push the admin on this issue at the time... while I may not agree with it, I do understand the position taken. At the end of the day, we all have to make our own decision of how actively to participate. Absolutely no hard feelings whatsoever...

[rajumds]

VK,
To me, an open forum means that users are free to join the forum, free to post their thoughts, free to edit their posts, free to delete their posts, and free to leave the forum --- ALL of the above and not just some.

You are free to post your thoughts , if you post with your identity revealed and ready to face the consequences if the other party thinks what you have written in libel. When someone hides behind a pseudo name and throws mud at others, this can't be called free speech and this needs to strictly moderated if rasikas.org has to maintain its reputation. The way it is going now, it may go the sangeetham.com way

[srkris]

As far as google search goes, it's been one intractable problem for quite a long time, google has stopped indexing the forum (but it does index the wiki). A last option would be to move the forum entirely to a new URL.

Update: I have made a small modification to the directory in which the forum is hosted, it has been moved from http://rasikas.org/forum to http://rasikas.org/forums to see if google re-indexes the site (and there is an automatic redirect in place as well so pls let me know if any of you face any problems in accessing the forum).

Update 2: After the above update, it seems Google has started reindexing the forum, search for site:rasikas.org/forums on google, it currently shows 12 links, and this number will grow as google indexes the entire forum again.

[Nick H]

Sorry, I had forgotten that the Google thing was an old problem and discussed before. Glad to know that you are making some headway with it now though!

[vasanthakokilam]

The way it is going now, it may go the sangeetham.com way

Oh, come on now. If some mud slinging, however unpleasant, between a few seniors can do that, we do not deserve to exist.

---
On a related matter, I noticed you say such a thing consistently over the years with your own impression on when the golden period of our site was. I definitely appreciate your thinking that things can be better, a lot better, which comes from good intentions for our site for the benefit of everyone. I just want to point out that while the forum may not be satisfying your needs to the extent it did during the golden period, there are a lot of good things being discussed and contributed as well. I am not saying this to defend the site, the admins or the mods etc. but to point out that we seem to focus disproportionately on the few fights that happens occasionally and not take into account the useful contributions that have happened over the years.

When I attended the MA lecture demo, quite a few times I felt that the topics they deal with there have been dealt with at a much deeper level here. That is what gives me the confidence that among all the unpleasantness that exists there is a lot of good as well. I think that is the reason that we need to exist.

[VK RAMAN]

I have benefited a lot and have enriched my knowledge and skill due to the topics shared and discussed in this forum and I like to see a few of you come forward to state the benefits you all have benefited. A few who can only see the negatives should not influence those of us who are benefited by this forum and we are thankful to srkris and the moderators for their unthankful effort and role.

[VijayR]

You are free to post your thoughts , if you post with your identity revealed and ready to face the consequences if the other party thinks what you have written in libel. When someone hides behind a pseudo name and throws mud at others, this can't be called free speech and this needs to strictly moderated if rasikas.org has to maintain its reputation. The way it is going now, it may go the sangeetham.com way

Sigh... Unfortunately, you completely missed my point. Anyway, if you're trying to deanonymize anything on the Internet, good luck to you!!

[vasanthakokilam]

Update 2: After the above update, it seems Google has started reindexing the forum, search for site:rasikas.org/forums on google, it currently shows 12 links, and this number will grow as google indexes the entire forum again.

Good job srkris. Now I see four pages of search results for https://www.google.com?q=site:rasikas.org/forums

So the trend is in the right direction!!