Trichur Brothers 21/5 Shanmukhananda Mumbai

priyashekar · Post by **priyashekar** » 22 Aug 2015, 22:46

SriKrishna Mohan & Raam kumar Mohan - Vocal
H.N .Bhaskar - Violin
Trichur Mohan - Mridhangam
Venkatasubramanian - Ghatam.

intho Prema - Surutti
Pancha matanga mukha ganapathi - Behag - S pada guru guha
Rakshamam sharangatham - Nattai -A, S - pakshi vahana
Sri Varalakshmi - Sri - A,S - Srivaralakshmi
Manavyalakim - Nalinakanthi
Sri rama Jayarama - Yadukulakambhodi
Ninne Nammithi - Simhendra madyamam - A,N ,S , ninne
Sinamadyaaadhe - Bhahudari - Dandapani Desikar
Guruvayurappane - Reethigowlai
RTP - Jog - Chetashri Ramam Chintaye vinuta shyamam - S-Jog,kedaram.Anandabhairavi,maand,Bilahari
Petra thaai thanai marandaalum - Viruttam - followed by pittam theliya - Chenhurutti
Krishna neebegane
Govind bholo hari - Bhajan
Pavamana

Then they played the theme song Namami Gange which is Govt of India's song for the Clean Ganga project initiated by PM Shri Modi, which they performed when PM visited Dubai this Monday..

A awesome cracker of a concert lasting about 3.45 hours on the last date of the Pon isai vizha festival organized by Shanmukhananda.

Abhishek ,Hyderabad Brothers.Sudha Raghunathan,Sanjay Subrahmanyan.T.V.Shankarnarayanan,Trichur Brothers was the line up.They are holding this for 2nd year in the month of August.( a special carnatic music festival no aradhanai or tamizh isai festival).

Amazing rendition right from the word go.A treat to ears.
Brothers were in full command and coordination,energetic singing - again from heart no lap top or ipad.

The alaps were fantastic so were swaram.

I like the way they take the alap and swaram as if doing a relay race.The brothers smoothly hand over the baton to the other .
Sri and Simehndra madhyamam were royal and sang beautifully.

The younger brother Raam kumar was more imaginative and improvised swaram in the rtp.

H.n.bhaskar was as usual masterly through out and was awesome in sri and simhendra madhyamam.

Mohan and Venkat were able support and did a grand thani for 12 mins

Shanmukhananda presented them with a 6 feet kuthu vilakku for the outstanding concert.A request to sing Namami gange was made.

The brothers were gracious enough to agree and said they will play the cd after mangalam as it was a bit western and involved lot of other instruments.

It was indeed an magnificent song and we should be proud of them singing for Govt of India PM's initiative.

No wonder they got a standing ovation 3 times from the audience after they were presented the kuthuvilakku, one after mangalam and after the nanami gange song was played .

They were really superb.

Sanjay's concert and T.Brothers concert ere the gems of the 5 day festival.

arunsri · Post by **arunsri** » 23 Aug 2015, 00:25

varnam is entO prEma tO nE pilachitE
pancha mAthanga is in malahari composed by muthuswAmy dIskhitar - swaras would have been in 'vara guruguha sOdarENa'
rakshamAm sharaNAgatham is in gambhIra nATTai - composed by mInAkshi suta
the pallavi would have in all probability been 'chEtah shrI rAmam chintayE jI muta shyAmam chintayE

kunthalavarali · Post by **kunthalavarali** » 23 Aug 2015, 01:41

Small addition please
Ramalinga swamy's arutpa should read petra thAi thanai maga maranthAlum (பெற்ற தாய் தனை மக மறந்தாலும்)

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 23 Aug 2015, 03:41

Thanks for one more review, Priya.

guruvAyUrappanE is by Ambujam Krishna. Maharajapuram Santhanam sang it with gusto.

priyashekar · Post by **priyashekar** » 24 Aug 2015, 01:37

Thanks Arunsri sir for the right words.

They also sang OMANA THINGAL - Kurinji by irayan Namanbi ? after the Govinda bolo bhajan in a slow speed which was melodious.Sorry I missed it earlier

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 24 Aug 2015, 08:38

Thanks for the lovely review. My two cents. Trichur Bros present a well packaged concert, intense and and with gusto and sincerity wherver they go.

Rakshamam sarnagatham- Eventhough Chembai used to sing in Gambheera nata, the brothers and Saketharaman sing this in Nata. I heard that the composer originally tuned it in Nata only.

Guruvayoorappane Appan- It was tuned and sung very frequently by TNS. Yes.Santhanam also has sung this sparcely but with right bhavam.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 24 Aug 2015, 19:39

priyashekar wrote:Thanks Arunsri sir for the right words.

They also sang OMANA THINGAL - Kurinji by irayan Namanbi ? after the Govinda bolo bhajan in a slow speed which was melodious.Sorry I missed it earlier

The beautiful composition is by Irayimman Thampi. Please see this.

harahari · Post by **harahari** » 25 Aug 2015, 14:45

Why do Carnatic artists sing pallavis in jog ! If they want some challenge , let them try a Pallavi in say Atana, ahiri, asaveri , etc..
Only when they are not capable of doing that will artists sing in jog , Maru behag, Shyam Kalyan etc.. The same reason to sing abhangs etc.. Instead of devarnamas, javalis etc

kamavardhani · Post by **kamavardhani** » 25 Aug 2015, 17:38

harahari wrote:If they want some challenge , let them try a Pallavi in say Atana, ahiri, asaveri , etc...

For that you need a solid grip over rakti ragas, which comes only if you have an extensive repertoire of kritis in those ragas. Amongst contemporary artistes, there are perhaps two: Dr. S. Sowmya and Chitravina N Ravikiran, who have the capability and more importantly the guts. I am personally an admirer of Dr. Sowmya's music and amongst her season concerts over just the last few yrs I have heard RTPs in: Narayanagaula, Manirangu, Senjurutti, Mukhari, Vardhani, Ritigaula, Asaveri, Ahiri, Sahana, Nilambari, Nayaki, Yadukulakambhoji to name but a few.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 25 Aug 2015, 18:42

harahari wrote:Why do Carnatic artists sing pallavis in jog !

"Why did you want to climb Mount Everest?" This question was asked of George Leigh Mallory, who was with both expeditions toward the summit of the world’s highest mountain, in 1921 and 1922, and who is now in New York. He plans to go again in 1924, and he gave as the reason for persisting in these repeated attempts to reach the top, "Because it's there."

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 26 Aug 2015, 07:47

MaheshS wrote:
harahari wrote:Why do Carnatic artists sing pallavis in jog !
"Why did you want to climb Mount Everest?" This question was asked of George Leigh Mallory, who was with both expeditions toward the summit of the world’s highest mountain, in 1921 and 1922, and who is now in New York. He plans to go again in 1924, and he gave as the reason for persisting in these repeated attempts to reach the top, "Because it's there."

Singing RTP in Kalyani, Todi or Sankarabharanam is like climbing the Everest.

Singing RTP in Jog or DogeSri is like climbing the St Thomas Mount.

pattamaa · Post by **pattamaa** » 26 Aug 2015, 09:01

harimau wrote:
Singing RTP in Jog or DogeSri is like climbing the St Thomas Mount.

well said..... <claps> ...

will TMK take up this cause part of his crusade ?

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 26 Aug 2015, 10:55

Many many years ago I heard a chance to hear JOG RTP of Trichur brothers and also of Suryaprakash. THey both are lovely and is indeed very detailed . There is also recording floating around , if you have a chance hear it . They are as good as ragas like Nattaikurinji and Keeravani- bit curtailed in duration.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 26 Aug 2015, 16:53

pattamaa wrote:
harimau wrote:
Singing RTP in Jog or DogeSri is like climbing the St Thomas Mount.
well said..... <claps> ...

will TMK take up this cause part of his crusade ?

In his write-up a year ago on Sanjay in Sruti, TMK wondered why Sanjay would want to do an RTP in Patdeep which didn't have a clear Carnatic swaroopa.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 26 Aug 2015, 18:07

An artist has a creative urge and wants to express it. When he can do it in any raga, his aesthetic sense is not in doubt. Why do then people single so many ragas that do not have carnatic flavour? How is carnatic flavour defined? There was a time when vivadi rags were taboo. I believe a famous musician said, 'If you sing vivadi ragas, you will get vyadhi.' It would be nice if the technical points why an RTP other than in Kambhodhi etc. is not aesthetic are discussed, instead of Everst and St. Thomas; after all many Chennai people know St Thomas intimately and Everest only in text books and photos. It looks like the attempts to purge Tamizh of all Samskritham words. A language is the richer when it is eclectic. CM has absorbed ragas into it by 'doping ' it with carnatic flavour and must be the richer for it.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 26 Aug 2015, 18:26

harimau wrote:
MaheshS wrote:
harahari wrote:Why do Carnatic artists sing pallavis in jog !
"Why did you want to climb Mount Everest?" This question was asked of George Leigh Mallory, who was with both expeditions toward the summit of the world’s highest mountain, in 1921 and 1922, and who is now in New York. He plans to go again in 1924, and he gave as the reason for persisting in these repeated attempts to reach the top, "Because it's there."
Singing RTP in Kalyani, Todi or Sankarabharanam is like climbing the Everest.

Singing RTP in Jog or DogeSri is like climbing the St Thomas Mount.

Haha. Singing in Panchamukhi talam is then walking along marina beach while singing Adi tala pallavi is walking in Ranganathan street

pattamaa · Post by **pattamaa** » 26 Aug 2015, 19:59

kvc sir - it is similar to chakkani raja margamulundaga.... why to explore on unfamiliar / uncarnatic ragas? Vivadi ragas are pretty much carnatic... main difference is presence/absence of gamakas... Apart from big 5, we have huge amount of ragas to be explored.... it will take ages... except for specific thematic concerts, i don't prefer jog / patdeep / durga etc for detailed elaboration/RTPs...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 26 Aug 2015, 21:30

anna, sAru, adE palya...(rice and rasam, will do for a veggie too, enough),
and for those from old Tirunelveli, pazaiyadum, kIraiyum (cooked rice soaked overnight and spinach)...heaven, indeed!

Now dare and dissuade the younger generation to do away with manchUrian and paneer dishes from their wedding menu

And as for us oldies, believing that northern desserts were our own (not just brown sugar besed appam and pori)

pattamaa · Post by **pattamaa** » 26 Aug 2015, 22:01

can't eat manchurian, paneer on daily basis, only for wedding / special meals... that's exactly my point.... keep aside uncarnatic ragas and use them sparingly.... focus on carnatic ragas... we have huge variety and choice here.. !!!

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 27 Aug 2015, 01:17

How many times have you heard a Jog pallavi? How many times have you heard a "carnatic" pallavi? Calculate the propotion and I am sure it will be the same propotion as you eating paneer vs "normal" food

I still don't get people who still complain about raga selection of an artist. Song? Language? I can understand, but raga? It might not be to your liking, so what? All this "every time I hear Kalyani / Thodi / etc etc I hear something new because it's an ocean with more depth than paramaathma blah de blah.... " BS. If you do, good, doesn't mean I have to.

Reminds me of a saying from my grand ma, "Ellarum rajah ana yaru pallaku thukkuva?" [Rough translation - If everyone becomes a King who will carry the Palanquin?]

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 27 Aug 2015, 06:48

Those who sing all those fancy rAgAs, who also bring to us a rarely heard mElakartA rAgA--what if they are also in the habit of bringing us elaborate and scholarly tODis, kalyANis? What if those very classical rAgAs stay in our minds, as those from old classical concerts? Unacceptable still, because in addition to the mega rAgAs they also bring rAgAs rare in CM and an occasional one from the HM tradition?

Personally, I find this addition refreshing, just as a kAvaDi Cindu one would hear in an old time concert.

An RTP handled expertly in a minor rAgA lodges itself as a lesson for future reference and for our appreciating it more.

harahari · Post by **harahari** » 27 Aug 2015, 12:31

The criterion to choose a raga for a classical carnatic concert should be : Have the trinity composed a song in that raga ? Have other great vaggeyakaras composed ? Is it mentioned in the ancient granthas ? All other ragas are non-carnatic.
You can sing all those ragas like jog, basant bahar etc.. , but dont label it as a "carnatic concert ". You can say its an indian music concert & sing whatever you please !
At the rate the standards are declining it wont be surprising if you hear Ghazals, quwwalis, sufi chants etc.. in a carnatic concert from the dias of music academy by the so-called Carnatic artists like trichur bros, suryaprakash,BJ,skl gurucharan, etc..
More shameful would be rasikas lapping it all up

Venkataraman · Post by **Venkataraman** » 27 Aug 2015, 12:48

harahari wrote:The criterion to choose a raga for a classical carnatic concert should be : Have the trinity composed a song in that raga ? Have other great vaggeyakaras composed ? Is it mentioned in the ancient granthas ? All other ragas are non-carnatic.
You can sing all those ragas like jog, basant bahar etc.. , but dont label it as a "carnatic concert ". You can say its an indian music concert & sing whatever you please !
At the rate the standards are declining it wont be surprising if you hear Ghazals, quwwalis, sufi chants etc.. in a carnatic concert from the dias of music academy by the so-called Carnatic artists like trichur bros, suryaprakash,BJ,skl gurucharan, etc..
More shameful would be rasikas lapping it all up

Completely agree with this. There is a a need for a revolution in carnatic music. Unlike other revolutions, this one should take us back to the past! We should probably do more to support artists who take genuine care to present classical carnatic concerts and not play for the gallery. Carnatic music can never be popular since its elitist. Unfortunately the sabha secretaries as well as media are so awed by "kootam" that the genuine music has been thrown out of the window.

Brinda amma was never popular, MDR was never popular, SKR .. but their music stands till this day and will stand for ever. Can we name one musician today that will stand another 50 yrs? someone who will make us shed a tear thinking of "those days"? Concerts are a standard fare today without the soul of carnatic music in them. they are only presentations!

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 27 Aug 2015, 14:20

The question is whether CM is like scripture which is god-given and admits of no change within set parameters. In that case, its relevance may only dwindle as anything that is static is inorganic. What is maodharma? Were all the ragas born at one and the same time? Did not CM reach the stage people consider pristine through evolution which is less discernible because we have no record? TMK researched and brought out the raga swaroopas of sahana, etc. in Dikshitar's time. Even Thodi, I heard, has changed from an unidentifiable past form to one of gamakas as it is today. The trinity were great, but to arrest all development of CM to that golden period seems contrived. It is just not true in any case that those who pull crowds have diluted CM or played to the gallery. MMI, MS, MLV, and the list go on, were classical to the core. MMI did a few new things and there is a section that criticises him for it. Singing new ragas cannot dilute CM. Ragas like Desh, Sindhubhairavi and many others have added to the beauty of CM. Incidentally, what are the parameters which define pristine CM? Even if it is shown in example by the trinity, can someone explain in terms of swarasthanas how the new ragas are an aberration?

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 27 Aug 2015, 16:29

Karnataka Sangeeta as an art form has its core principles, different from other art forms in music. To state the unique quality in KM is in the use of kampita, gamakams, sahithya bhaavam with primacy for raga bhaavam, talas, kalapramanams, laya, highest standards in theory and practices enabling determining, relating, knowing and adopting seamlessly any other forms of music. Practitioners must have the integrity to adhere to the core principles in their creativity and re creativity. Test for pristine and pure qualities of classical art form is related to its core principles. Manodharma is righteousness in creativity or recreativity; manas, the state of mind in imagination and creativity; dharmic being in state of mind with righteousness of not compromising the core principles and practice of classical art form. Time tested and proven creativity or re creativity in rasotpathi seamlessly becomes the tradition.

With the primary goal as bhakthi and keertanas of Supreme Brahman, the practice was to use 'sampoorna' ragas in relation to the sampoorna guna vishesas of Supreme God. Asampoorna ragas were essentially meant and used for the pleasure of 'asvantantra' Devata/Devi, Gandharva, Yaksha and Prajapathi. With the secondary goal of mano ranjakatvam, there is no restriction in practice but to conform to the established lakshanas/theory. Lakshya aspect focus is on delivery of pleasure.

Sabha and modern cutcheri paddhati developed with motive of achieving judicious balance of idealism and materialism-Pandita and Pamara ranjakatvam. Vidwan/Vidushee has the freedom of choice for creativity and its exposition to offer the pleasure of manoranjakatvam. The freedom is misused only when the core principles of the art form is compromised. Practice of 'hitam' and 'mitam' is to be adhered by the practitioner. Scalar ragas have their attraction but also its limitation to expound. It is challenging but limited contrary to the general belief. Real and higher challenge is in the scope of sampoorna and ghana ragas.

The modern cutchery state of; discerning rasikas becoming lesser in numbers; span of attention and time investment by rasikas becoming lesser; support of rasikas, patrons and event managers is for Extremely popular Vidwans/Vidushees-capable of full house and popular Vidwans/Vidushees capable of selective and sufficient support, with very few exceptions. Vidwans/Vidushees survival instinct demands meeting the requirements and securing the support. Popular Vidwans and Vidushees resort to compromise to command and win the instant appreciation-applause by offering excitement and surprise elements unmindful of deterioration in quality and principles of practice of art form.

Observing the specific use of ragas, one must understand the rasikas appreciation of rare ragas over rakthi ragas; use of ragas and their expositions/delineations in Hindustani music popular Ustads/Pandits with the rasikas mindset that it is more challenging and more melodious; rasikas -Public and Private - willingness to invest higher resources for Hindustani music Ustads/Pandits, they are being attempted to show case their talents, skills and also for gaining higher acceptance and support to their practice and making a living.

In the practice of Classical art, from time immemorial, 'mass' attraction only is supported over 'class'. This is unlikely to change. If change has to happen, practitioner has to attach highest respect and reverence to the core principles of the very art and rasikas have to become discerning with minimal knowledge and offer support to 'class' over 'mass'.

munirao2001

KSJaishankar · Post by **KSJaishankar** » 27 Aug 2015, 19:22

Chellappa sir - very well articulated. There is a section that believes not just that anything new is bad, but that everything old is good! This anyway is not a new phenomenon - even the great Kalidasa had to bear the barbs of these kind of people, and he said (in very palpable anguish)

purAnamityeva na sAdhu sarvam , na chApi kAvyam navamityavadyam

I guess Dikshitar would (or should) have been excommunicated for daring to pollute pristine Carnatic music with such horrible North India muck as Brindavanasaranga, Jujawanthi or Hamirkalyani, just to take three examples.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 27 Aug 2015, 19:39

KSJaishankar wrote: I guess Dikshitar would (or should) have been excommunicated for daring to pollute pristine Carnatic music with such horrible North India muck as Brindavanasaranga, Jujawanthi or Hamirkalyani, just to take three examples.

The Trichur Brothers are not Sri Muthuswamy Deekshithar.

Nor are Suryaprakash and the tup-tup artist though the latter labors under the impression that he is superior.

It takes a monumental genius not seen in centuries to do what Sri Deekshithar has done.

pattamaa · Post by **pattamaa** » 27 Aug 2015, 19:45

my understanding is that Deekshitar 'adopted' HM ragas, and not without brigas etc... Agree with harimau's observation about trichur brothers, suryaprakash obession for HM ragas... sanjay used to experiment few years ago, these days he appeared to have abandoned it...

trichur brothers sang jog RTP in mumbai, and few days later in bengaluru sang darbari kanada and desh RTP ! I have personally heard jog RTP from them couple of times in past !

May be, dikshitar had some opposition during his time, so what? for every opinon, there is different opinion always... that need to withstand the time to be immortal..

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 27 Aug 2015, 20:03

Trichur brothers, Suryaprakash and Sanjay are not composers. Comparison with Dikshitar is weird. What Sanjay thinks of himself is, in my opinion, far more modest than the one throwing spiteful comments on others gratuitously. That topic should not have come in here at all. The topic is what ragas are fit for RTP. No one has said anything worthwhile on why certain ragas are not suitable for RTP. For example a raga like Kuntalavarali may be very limited in scope. The question would be what is the scope fr RTP and why some ragas do not offer that scope. 'I do not like', 'It was not done by others' 'Dikshithar is a genius' etc. are nowhere near the point. I also do not like some ragas. Am I to expect that the singer should not sing them? Sanjay's concerts are in youtube like no other contemporary artist's. Why not choose one raga where he sings RTP, which is forbidden, and comment how it vitiates the aesthetic of CM, or the lakshna of RTP? would it not be a fitting argument why such RTPs mar CM?

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 27 Aug 2015, 20:36

kvchellappa wrote:The question would be what is the scope fr RTP and why some ragas do not offer that scope. 'I do not like', 'It was not done by others' 'Dikshithar is a genius' etc. are nowhere near the point. I also do not like some ragas. Am I to expect that the singer should not sing them? Sanjay's concerts are in youtube like no other contemporary artist's. Why not choose one raga where he sings RTP, which is forbidden, and comment how it vitiates the aesthetic of CM, or the lakshna of RTP? would it not be a fitting argument why such RTPs mar CM?

The point I wanted to make as well, and as far I know Deekshitar did not sing RTP's

Seems like if they personally don't like the artist / raga it / they are not suitable .... What about Kaikavasi for Pallavi? Swami composed in it. Mohana Kalyani? NOOOOOOOOOO. Haram

Baah humbug. I wish people look at carnatic music without restricting themselves to the Trinity.

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 27 Aug 2015, 21:58

Kaikavasi is very much suitable for Pallavi. It is a shadava sampoorna ragam. But how many musicians dare to enter a ragam which has shatshruthi dhaivatham (in this case). In the event of elaborating kaikavasi, they enter into the domiain of neethimathi and claim it as a pristine rendition

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 28 Aug 2015, 01:04

When musicians take a raga like jog, darbari, brindavanasaranga ,hameer, desh, dwijavanthi etc they would usually sing a heavy raga like top 6 (bhairavi, kambodhi, sbharanam, khp ,kalyani) as a main or submain. As such there is no dilution from these artist because they have presented the so called heavy carnatic ragas at the top as such CM package is very much there in that concert . For me personally I like ragas which sit at crossroads of CM and HM for pallavi that too after very heavy Big 6 as main.

Jog has lovely shades it has a swaroopam of near nattai and a tinge of tilang - I really welcome them to take Jog - that too considering there is no composition- As such any raga has more ragabhavam when a bit detailed pallavi is taken. I understand some donot like it - it is a matter of taste but certainly it is not a taboo as some of you claim.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 28 Aug 2015, 01:11

Venkataraman wrote: SKR .. but their music stands till this day and will stand for ever. Can we name one musician today that will stand another 50 yrs? someone who will make us shed a tear thinking of "those days"? Concerts are a standard fare today without the soul of carnatic music in them. they are only presentations!

SKR has taken far more HM ragas than CM ragas in his life time . His handling of rare ragas of HM flavour and Dwi Madhyama ragas are his creations . We just have to wait for another 50 years. There are atleast 10 musicians who have pushed the envelope of CM distinctly as of now which the previous generation missed out before 1980's. In CM we have to wait to look from a distance . There are always lovely mahanubhavulus in every generation.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 28 Aug 2015, 12:11

KVC Sir,
QUOTE The topic is what ragas are fit for RTP. No one has said anything worthwhile on why certain ragas are not suitable for RTP. UNQUOTE Please read my post #25.
I am posting once again here, for ready reference, the relevant parts.
1. Karnataka Sangeeta as an art form has its core principles, different from other art forms in music. To state the unique quality in KM is in the use of kampita, gamakams, sahithya bhaavam with primacy for raga bhaavam, talas, kalapramanams, laya, highest standards in theory and practices enabling determining, relating, knowing and adopting seamlessly any other forms of music. Practitioners must have the integrity to adhere to the core principles in their creativity and re creativity. Test for pristine and pure qualities of classical art form is related to its core principles.
2. Practice of 'hitam' and 'mitam' is to be adhered to by the practitioner. Scalar ragas have their attraction but also its limitation to expound. It is challenging but limited contrary to the general belief. Real and higher challenge is in the scope of sampoorna and ghana ragas.
3. Observing the specific use of ragas, one must understand the rasikas appreciation of rare ragas over rakthi ragas; use of ragas and their expositions/delineations in Hindustani music by popular Ustads/Pandits with the rasikas mindset that it is more challenging and more melodious; rasikas -Public and Private - willingness to invest higher resources for Hindustani music Ustads/Pandits, they are being attempted to show case their talents, skills and also for gaining higher acceptance and support to their practice and making a living.
On Mudduswami Dikshita’s introduction of ragas popular in Hindustani Music, the great genius composer has composed keertanas with primacy for pure notes(HM’s core principle) and also with kampita and gamakams e.g. ‘Kamalam Bhaja Re Re’ and ‘Bhaja Re Re Chitta’ both in raga Kalyani. Dikshita also composed Keertanams in Ghana/popular ragas of HM using the appropriate gamakams to conform to the KM principles e.g. ‘Cheta Sri Bala Krishnam Bhaja Re Re’ in Dwijavanthi. Studying with respect and reverence, learning and committed to conform to the patantharam in practice-teaching and performing is required. Delivery of such practitioners will result in establishing the intrinsic qualities for following and enjoyment. Unfortunately, only few practitioners have commitment and dedication. Popular artists taking the liberties with patantharam has resulted in lack of clarity and understanding resulting in confusion.
4. QUOTE The question would be what is the scope for RTP and why some ragas do not offer that scope? UNQUOTE RTP is structured on elaborating the i) raga aalapana in thri sthayees-mandara; madhyama; tara, Svara to Svara and also with phrases and moorchana ii) tana in thri kaalam-vilamba; madhyama; turita with minimum three kinds of tana varieties iii) Pallavi with sahithya bhaavam and raga bhaavam distinctly and also mutually complementing; Svara kalpana in thri kaalam and with tala, gathi, laya and kalapramanam, with panditya prakarshana. Scalar ragas offer limited scope for RTP conforming to the sampradaya. Why scalar ragas also being taken up, more and more in the present times? Factors contributing to this trend and development are 1. It is rasikas expectation for values of excitement and surprise elements 2. It is rasikas choice of artists in supporting with opinion that they have higher Vidwath/talent when they take up such ragas 3. It is restricted time duration of 15-20 minutes, exceptionally 30 minutes 4. It is rasikas higher tolerance for repetitions by the performers and not making demands with commitment to listen only to popular artists 5. It is Knowledge of rasikas being inadequate.
5. QUOTE Why not choose one raga where artist (he) sings RTP, which is forbidden, and comment how it vitiates the aesthetic of CM, or the lakshna of RTP? UNQUOTE Test is simple. Take same/similar raga RTP of artist who uncompromisingly conforms to the RTP standards, systems and methods with the artist being tested and judged.

munirao2001

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 28 Aug 2015, 12:13

Rajeshnat Sir,

Rag Jog is similar to Raga Bahudari.

munirao2001

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 29 Aug 2015, 11:39

What is the reason that present day musicians are not considering Tim tested ragas like gouri, guntakriya, padi, purvi for RTP?

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 29 Aug 2015, 13:39

. No one has said anything worthwhile on why certain ragas are not suitable for RTP

When I was young we used play cricket in the Temple premises . Lord Nandi did the work for us as wickets by permitting his belly to be scored with vertical stripes. The odd part was the area that normally goes by the name " On Side " ..which was the temple garden. Zealously maintained by the Head priest, who had floated the idea of a seven headed cobra lying in there, waiting for us.So we never hit shots on the leg side .On the rare occasion a delicious flick took the ball into this garden , it was the bravest among us who could retrieve it .
The result was that , no matter where the ball was pitched we batted like GR Viswanath. All strokes on the off - side .

The most amusing result would be on days when we played in tournaments on huge grounds without the serpent lurking around . And our batting would be just like the leg side never existed. Hitting the ball always straight to fielders packed on the offside .With disastrous results .

Singing HM ragas for RTP is a bit like this.The artist opting to constrain himself in a piece where one would expect him eager to show his wares.Leaning less on the composers genius and more on the musicianship part of his delivery . This shall have the same merit that goes with the ragamalika section,too , in a RTP . A tendency to titillate the listeners .( in the sense of tickling the senses ) .

Hindustani Jog itself has not been very widely mastered by vocalists , if one has to go by recordings available .At the end of the day a HM RAGA can be just a muse . No more than that .Developed into a bigger thing by sheer artistry . How and why it fits into a CM repertoire has baffled me .
For the records I have listened to this Jog RTP by the artists under discussion at Venus colony . Yes people go mad with twist and turns , but unfortunately it is the same stretch , revisited again and again .
Blame it on Chaurasia- N Ramani ( jog-calanata) for that first slippery step - to borrow a phrase from harimau.

rupavathi · Post by **rupavathi** » 29 Aug 2015, 23:10

Very well put, varsha!

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 30 Aug 2015, 08:53

Varsha Sir

A tendency to titillate the listeners .( in the sense of tickling the senses ) .

RTP was for a long period in the history of practice, Eka Raga, Later to meet the demand of rasikas, practice became Pradhana and Raga malika. Ragas chosen for the ragamalika was either belonging to the same chakra or different chakra - Janaka and Janya. Later period, late 19th century, practice of choosing ragas to offer both, challenging and interesting came in to being.
RTP is for Vidwath prakarsha-show casing the talents. Performer has to observe the trend and choice of rasikas is based on the need to offer pleasure to the rasikas. Over indulgence only results in 'tendency to titillate the listeners'.

munirao2001

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 30 Aug 2015, 09:44

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTGVKDY-zDE
Pandit Jasraj with his Brother/Guru Pt. Maniram and Pandit Pratap - Raag Jog _ A rare recording

rupavathi · Post by **rupavathi** » 30 Aug 2015, 11:02

Sorry, if something I said in a lighter vein hurt you, when all I intended was appreciation of your unique analogy. Have edited my response.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 30 Aug 2015, 11:56

Point taken . I have held an oliver branch in my post # 40

pattamaa · Post by **pattamaa** » 30 Aug 2015, 12:21

It's all our gain anyways!!! do post vintage gems like a grand thodi welcome drink you did....

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 30 Aug 2015, 14:54

I have left another one for the road for you , in your favourite artists thread

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 02 Sep 2015, 17:22

Vidwan Sri B Krishnamurthy is a great musician, a storehouse of knowledge and someone who teaches special students (students who receive a scholarship from the Central Government's Ministry of Culture) the intricacies of Ragam Tanam Pallavi.

When I asked him about singing RTPs in minor ragas, his comment was that ragas such as Bhagesri or Suddha Sarang (he picked two ragas at random) do not offer the same scope for elaboration as Kalyani, Kambhodi, Todi, etc., and so should not be taken up for singing RTPs.

Of course that didn't prevent his special student Sikkil Gurucharan from singing RTP in Suddha Sarang!

I thank Sri Munirao for his excellent observations that he has posted on this board.

There are people who claim they are bored of Kalyani, Sankarabharanam, Todi, etc.

They seem to seek entertainment and titillation in music.

Such music would be as forgettable as pop and film music.

And that is why some people listen to Ariyakkudi, Semmangudi, Madurai Mani Iyer in their homes and do not venture out to concert halls.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 02 Sep 2015, 18:32

harimau wrote: And that is why some people listen to Ariyakkudi, Semmangudi, Madurai Mani Iyer in their homes and do not venture out to concert halls.

With the mistaken belief that everything that they have heard in their recordings is the defenition

Ofcourse, they never had sruthi problems, their talam was always perfect, their bhakthi was unparallel, they couldn't even make a mistake if they tried too and if they did, that was accepted to be the "norm" as they are Saraswathi herself personified and *she* can't be wrong, therefore you are.

I think we should just put a blanket ban and only allow certain performers singing certain ragas and only certain krithis in that raga .., and not allow anyone to explore anything as Ariyakudi / Mani Iyer / Semmangudi did not do it. If they haven't tried, how dare the current lot even attempt *anything*?

pattamaa · Post by **pattamaa** » 02 Sep 2015, 19:25

Mahesh - the issue is that most of today's concert doesn't touch heart, while the the said is true for artists mentioned by harimau !

The analogy is like film songs, you hear concert, and next day you forget it on what was sung...

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 02 Sep 2015, 19:29

pattamaa wrote:Mahesh - the issue is that most of today's concert doesn't touch heart, while the the said is true for artists mentioned by harimau !

The analogy is like film songs, you hear concert, and next day you forget it on what was sung...

Doesn't touch *your* heart,fair enough, doesn't mean *everyone* has to fall into the same line ... sheeple

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 02 Sep 2015, 20:54

There are many true CM singers today, ranging from young to old. Several youngsters are singing amazingly.
TMK appears to be aesthetically satisfying to a number of knowledgeable rasikas. He does not, in any case, deviate from classicism, by his own admission also. Vijay Siva appeals to a good number of the cognoscenti. RK Murthy is also appreciated. There are many more.
It may be true also that there was some quality in ARI etc. which was unique. I heard him sing kotinatulu and a few others. His rendering stands out. SSI's akhilandeswari and chetasri are also heavenly.
But, I have also heard some songs where the contemporary singers bring fresh imagination.
In the thread on RTP, apart from Varsha who mentioned how certain phrases are laboured in the new ragas he has heard, no substance was provided in the discussion. Quoting a guru who just said there is no scope is not a very valuable insight. Was that not the point in discussion ab initio? Even I understand that some ragas are defined in a few characteristic phrases or usages and it will be laboured to stretch them in RTP.
Is it correct to make a statement that certain ragas are 'thakadillae' type? If patdeep is shallow for RTP, why? Is Bhimplas ok? Or is it that HM borrowed ragas are untouchable as a group? Who is the authority for this?
Vivadi ragas were taboo until recently. When I hear some singers sing them even elaborately they sound ever so sweet. Of course, it is subjective, and I would not know if the raga delineation steps into other ragas in transgression.

KSJaishankar · Post by **KSJaishankar** » 02 Sep 2015, 21:53

Why is it wrong for today's artistes to attempt RTPs (or even just alapanas) in ragas that the past masters have not? Its not just about ragas borrowed from Hindustani music. Vijay Siva (who nobody tags as being populist or a rebel) sang an RTP in Jayantasena in Bangalore recently. Forget RTP, I have not even heard of any compositions other than Vinatha Sutha Vahana by the saint, and have not heard anyone elaborate that as a main piece - is this a crime?

In the past, the late MLV sang RTP in Revati - to the best of my knowledge, none of the trinity or other popular vaggeyakaras composed in it. Even Ranjani does not seem to have been popular with the composers of yore. Does that mean these ragas do not have scope for elaboration or lack in bhava in some way?

On the other hand, NarayanaGaula is a raga that seems to have been classified as a ghana raga, and elaborated by artistes like the late Chittoor Subramania Pillai. Have not heard of a detailed Narayanagaula by the big artistes of the "golden period" - other than an occasional Sri Ramam by SSI (sans anything more than an outline hum of the raga) or Maguva Ninne by MDR (as a brisk opener). Among today's artistes, have heard Sanjay, TMK and Sowmya sing Sri Ramam as a sub-main with elaborate alapana.

The charm in music is in variety - it is presumptuous to dismiss this as a need for titillation. I love an elaborate Sankarabharanam or Kambhoji as much as the next man, but please excuse me if I cannot sit though a whole season of concerts where only Sankarabharanam or Kambhoji (or take any pick of raga) is presented in detail.