TM Krishna for Madhuradhwani, Singapore

natts1959 · Post by **natts1959** » 29 Aug 2015, 22:59

TM Krishna- H.N. Bhaskar - Tanjavur Murugaboopathy- Anirudh Athreya

List

1. Varugalamo - Maanji - M Chapu - Gopalakrishna Bharathi
2. Chinna Natana - Kalanidi - Adi - Thyagaraja
3. Krishna Nee Begane - Yamuna Kalyani - Purandara Dasar (R,N,S)
4. Brova Bharama - Bahudari - Adi - Thyagaraja (R,S) by HN Bhaskar
5. Viriboni - Bhariravi - Kanta jathi ata talam - ?? (R,T,N,S)
6. Eti Janmamithi - Varali - M Chapu - Thayagaraja
7. Sagara Shyana vibho - Bageshree - Adi - MDR
8. Mangalam kosalendraya - Virutham in Bageshree, Sahana, Begada
9. Thyagarajaya namaste - Begada - Rupakam - MD

From the list, one would come to realize that this was typical TMK concert where is surprise is no surprise. The entire concert was slow paced but thoroughly engaging from the word go. Most of the audience stayed riveted to their seats even past 10 AM and that is testimony to TMK's power to engage the audience.

The yamuna kalyani alapana was the pick of the concert for me. really well done using his powerful voice to land on the gandharam and arresting the audience with that one note.

I have never heard HN Bhaskar play a solo, but if his bahudari alapana and krithi was anything to go by, he should definitely try more solo concerts. he was very good and crisp. The krithi was also rendered crispy with krishna joining in for the swarams following bhaskar.

TMK announced that the viriboni varnam he sang was the full varnam. it had one additional chitta swaram and some charanams after that. I was intrigued by the NDMGR gliding proyogas in bhairavi. Have never heard that before.

Mangalam as a virutham was another surprise. The way he seamlessly transitioned from bageshree to sahana to begada was stunning. After a pause when he seemed to be in trace, he went to ask the audience if he can sing one more song and went on with a stunning rendition of the begada krithi.

All in all, while TMK's concerts are always up for debate and opinions, it was 3 hrs of soulful music and 100% engagement. The standing ovation for the concert was richly deserved.

Sivaramakrishnan · Post by **Sivaramakrishnan** » 30 Aug 2015, 14:07

Not a single rasika had the 'guts' to say no for a kriti after the Mangalam!

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 30 Aug 2015, 17:37

Mangalam simply means auspicious, it does not mean the end. If it were after say the national anthem, then you have something to crib about.

The more I read about TMK's concert list the more I feel that he is right in one way, you have to be there and enjoy. Doesn't make sense to comment if you were not there and say "Viriboni" should not have been sung in the middle. Me for one, would love to get hold of this concert [and any others

] of his ...

Sivaramakrishnan · Post by **Sivaramakrishnan** » 30 Aug 2015, 18:00

Ok let us have Mangalam as the opening piece.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 30 Aug 2015, 20:08

Come on guys, all this mish mash with Mangalam before Viriboni and then a Ganesha song etc. is so passé!

Give me a musician who can sing Jagadanandakaraka backwards! That gets slightly interesting.
KAYANA NAPRA KINAJA YAJA!
KARAKADANANDAGAJA!

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 30 Aug 2015, 21:02

Only music is required. No need to give importance to the composer, sahityam or the customs followed till now.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 30 Aug 2015, 21:20

Sangitam Dehi!?

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 30 Aug 2015, 21:39

Post 5 above
may be one can achieve this feat if he practices singing doing sirasaasana

kunthalavarali · Post by **kunthalavarali** » 31 Aug 2015, 00:48

Reserved for the next year's concert in Pune! Just for fun please.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 31 Aug 2015, 03:48

Sivaramakrishnan wrote:Not a single rasika had the 'guts' to say no for a kriti after the Mangalam!

Ok let us have Mangalam as the opening piece.

I think your anti-TMK sentiment is making you say things that are not properly researched and are inconsistent with our real tradition. If you ridicule TMK for this, to be consistent you have to ridicule Thyagaraja himself. Check out his Operas, there are Mangalam songs in the middle of the song list of the dance drama.

And of course in Dance, they do start with Todaya mangalam.

So TMK is on very strong grounds here.

But for various reasons Mangalam is sung only at the end of the CM concert. That practice somehow got elevated to a kutcheri dharma. That wrong notion is further etched in the psyche of folks to the extent that musicians are advised not to sing Mangalam at the end of their concert if there is another concert to follow. This all amounts to layering of one bad notion on top of another. The end result is if somehow someone has the guts to go back to the old tradition, they get the brick bats. That is indeed a shame.

It should not be considered improper if anyone starts a concert with a Mangalam song. But if it is Pavamana, people will find it odd given most people do not have the background info about this and will laugh at that. Since we are not going to explain things to hundreds of thousands of people, someone needs to pick a Mangalam song that is not typically sung in CM concerts and start the concert with that song.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 31 Aug 2015, 04:36

VkM,
thanks for elevating the discussion to a more serious one about Mangalam.
My four rupees:
1. Mangalam is like Amen..ushers in an auspicious atmosphere. It has a sense of "conclusion to a prayer". Whereas Om Shatih Shantih Shantih is an Upanishadic conclusion, it became a norm in group prayers especially in temples during the main Arati to conclude with a Mangalam. Same way, when we do Arati to Rama at the end of a reading (parayana) we sing Mangalam Kosalendraya. Just as we have "Shubham" displayed on the screen at the end of a movie. Especially meaningful if the movie or reading covers episodes full of drama, death, bereavement, and war etc. I was told when young that in old Sanskrit drama, the ending always had to have a" Shubham". Unlike Greek tragedy.
2. It is also important to make an auspicious start to a prayer session. A song to Ganesha is a good way since he is called "remover of obstacles". Todaya Mangalam does the same thing in fact, as far as I can see (http://srimadbhajanamrutham.blogspot.in ... galam.html)
3. The word mangalam meaning simply "Amen', or auspicious, is different from "mangalam" as applied to a song definition. Another meaning of mangalam is auspicious ingredients for prayer (Kumkuma, haridra, tambula, pushpa, gandha...) and even persons (a cow, a brahmin, a married woman..).
4. Singing a song defined as a mangalam creates an invocatory or a concluding prayer atmosphere. By definition an invocation or conclusion is out of place in the middle of a concert. It is all a matter of convention.
if we remove these conventions, by saying a Ganesha song can be sung at any point in a concert, and the mangalam (Mangalam Kosalendraya, Pavamana, ragas like Madhyamavati, Suruti, Manirangu..) can be followed by other songs, even songs like Eti janma, or Nanati Bratuku, Yake Nirdayanade.., we are questioning a basic concept, that Carnatic music is supposed to usher in, finally, positive, prayerful, and auspicious sentiments in the audience. By challenging that concept, what are we achieving?

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 31 Aug 2015, 04:40

Good-bye:
From earlier Godby, Godby'e, Godbwye, God b'w'y, God bwy yee, God buy you, God be wi' you: each a progressively shorter contraction of God be with you, with the change of God to good by confusion with good morning, good day, etc.

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 31 Aug 2015, 06:34

@Vasanthakokilam
Its nice to see you comparing Sathguru with TMK. Sri Thyagarajaswamy has used mangalams in two of his group compositions, namely Utsava sampradaya krithis and in his operas. In the former he invites Sriramachandra to his house with his parivara, do nalangu, oonjal, kalyana utsava etc. Each event is an auspicious one and not to have any obstacles he says mangalam inbetween. Inbetween at only one occasion, after nalugu. We have four mangalam in the entire set, two comes after nalugu and two comes at the end. He is not doing any concert there is to be remembered and hence we cannot justify the act of TMK based on this example. In the second, his operas, there are only one mangalam, only at the end.
So your comparison is totally on wrong premises. I am not judgemental wrt to his act of singing mangalam and singing another composition (though personally I dislike), details and references wrt to Trinity must not be misinterpreted.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 31 Aug 2015, 08:21

bhakthim dehi, thanks for pitching in and thanks for those details on Sri. Tyagaraja's use of Managalams in his operas. I was going to look it up to provide that reference and you saved me that effort.

I know there is always a risk of invoking Sri. Thyagaraja since it affects people's sensibilities but let me state why I invoked him in this context. That is not to defend TMK though that is the context in which we are discussing this. The part about defending TMK is separate which I will write about separately below. It is more about the general point that we elevate certain current 'practices' as God sanctioned divine dharmas. This is not the first time the issue of Mangalam has been raised. There are clear examples from traditions much deeper than the concert tradition that Mangalam need not be relegated to the end. There are cases where Mangalam is used at the beginning, in the middle and at the end. I am not at all saying that this gives people freedom to do whatever they want with it. But I just wanted to point out the real meaning of Mangalam. You and Sachi have done a much better job about that than I did. I know I am taking a position that is opposite to such an enormously well entrenched principle in people's minds that Mangalam marks the end of the CM concert, but someone has to harp on it to point out the true meaning of Mangalam.

What I say above has nothing to do with TMK per se, it is more my reaction to other's reaction to TMK which exhibits a false belief about Mangalam

=====

Now coming back to this specific instance of TMK in this context, I would not have minded what he did for totally different reasons. I give him the benefit of the doubt that he sincerely felt that he wanted to sing another song after singing the mangalam. It was not meant to intentionally go against any current practices etc. ( If you do not believe that, fine, I respect that position and I do not expect you to look kindly to what I am going to write below. )

He has two choices. Fear the potential retribution and ridicule, curtail his natural artistic impulse and finish the concert keeping his mouth shut, or go ahead and sing the Begada. As a rasika, I will definitely take the latter any day, no question about it. Those who just shudder at that abomination of singing even S-P-S after mangalam can run out of the concert hall with their palms to the ears muttering 'apacharam, apacharam' . I just can not afford to care about them. Really. In my opinion they are the ones who are not respecting the music that they claim to care about and think and act slavishly by treating practices as inviolable tradition and putting that at a higher pedestal than the spontaneous act of a musician. Think about it. What did he do? He sang a Begada song since that is what he felt like singing! Yeah, right, what a thoughtless crime!!

Sivaramakrishnan · Post by **Sivaramakrishnan** » 31 Aug 2015, 08:29

Vasanthakokilam,
Am not against TMK but 'innovations that can be avoided'.
In bhajanai paddhati we have certain ordering of songs and we follow it. (Ok, concerts cant be bhajanais, but still!).

natts1959 · Post by **natts1959** » 31 Aug 2015, 08:45

Sivaramakrishnan wrote:Vasanthakokilam,
Am not against TMK but 'innovations that can be avoided'.
In bhajanai paddhati we have certain ordering of songs and we follow it. (Ok, concerts cant be bhajanais, but still!).

Sir, I dont quite agree that Viriboni or Eti Janmamu or for that matter they way Krishna Nee Begana and the ragam was handled can be called "bhajanai". I mean it was serious effort, serious music. I could have views about his other theatrics but on music he is up there.. no question,

Innovations are must for evolution and who are we to say things should evolve only in a particular way? Of course innovations could fail but from what engagement i saw, and personally speaking as well, i dont see this particular one failing. Lets wait and watch what happens... in the meantime have an open mind and enjoy the music.

Sivaramakrishnan · Post by **Sivaramakrishnan** » 31 Aug 2015, 09:14

natts 1959,
Seems you haven't got my point correct. Afraid the thread may go awry if I try to explain further! Thank you.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 31 Aug 2015, 10:01

btw, just to provide more context, I was looking for a rendition of the song 'Madhava bhavathu they mangalam' whose structure is quite similar to 'nI nAma rUpamulaku nitya jaya mangaLam'. Guess what I found! An excellent rendition of that by our own Sri. V.K. Raman. Here it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yUFv42FLa8

It is also part of the full Todaya Mangalam sequence that VKR sings wonderfully here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_io-SgGYopA

V.K. Raman, let us know more about your anubhavam and pAndithyam of these pieces. Is it true that this is sung during the beginning portions of sampradaya bhajans?

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 31 Aug 2015, 10:25

Natts 1959, PL frankly tell me. Will you rate the concert lower if he had not sung Thyagarajaya namaste after the mangalam?
What great creativity exploded in the song which drove him to sing the same at the end. (I have heard the song from him many times. So I need not hear the same concert to have a judgement on that.)
Not that he has not sung that song earlier or suddenly the urge came out to present that song. He has sung that hundreds of times. It is onIy for the heck of breaking the tradition, which he has taken as his mission and which hundreds of listeners also support.

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 31 Aug 2015, 10:42

When he has decided to disregard the existing system, why he sings Mangalam in all the concerts. It is high time he skips Mangalam.

VVaidyanathan · Post by **VVaidyanathan** » 31 Aug 2015, 13:54

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 31 Aug 2015, 15:08

wish TMK just sang more and pontificated less

Sir, you're spot on!

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 31 Aug 2015, 15:29

@Vasanthakokilam
Thank you for understanding my concern. Mangalam is sung to confer mangalam. So it is sung after various important occassions like after a nalugu in a kalyanam or after concluding a discourse , harikatha or a concert(?). But if we notice carefully, in a marriage, if a mangalam is being sung after nalugu, the event is not allowed to end just like that. I mean mangalam is repeated at the End of a marriage. So, singing mangalam at the beginning , middle or end is not an issue. An event must end only with a mangalam (there can be 2 or 3 mangalam also). So if TMK was suddenly overwhelmed by his own performance and feels like singing again after singing a mangalam, he should have sung an another mangalam after begada krithi.
Instead of providing various hypotheses for his behaviour, lets accept the fact he wants to violate from the tradition and his blind fans who wants to attend his concerts for the sake of (only)music as an innovation.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 31 Aug 2015, 17:36

TMK sings well. His voice and fundamentals are strong. He is open about not following the pattern, so the argument to show that he does not violate it seems misplaced. He has proved a point that his singing will carry the day with no care for the pattern, not that the pattern is ill-conceived or disruptive to creativity. I find no greater creativity in his post-revolutionary singing apart from normal maturing with continued singing. The same maturity would have been there even if he had stuck to the beaten track.
I for one do not find the entire non-concert on vilamba kala interesting.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 31 Aug 2015, 17:50

Well said, sir.

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 31 Aug 2015, 22:20

V.K in post no 18 :is it true that this is sung during the beginning portions ps sampradaya bhajans? "
Here is my 2 cents.
The sampradaya bhajanai is an elaborate program which runs for more than 24 hours and has well defined sequential order of several angams(components ) consisting of thodayamangalam , guruvandanam,Gita govindam (24 ashtapathis) ,compositions of saints( Narayana theerthar,Ramadasar, etc ), puja,divyanamam,dolothsavam,prabhodhanam,kalyanam, magalam.each angams is like a chapter in a book.thodayamangalam is the introductory chapter( which runs for about 25 mints and this chapter ends with a conclusion viz mangalam( madhava bhavaduthe. ...) All the other chapters including the kalyanam chapter with nalangu etc.. Also have their mangala. Slokam .( sort of conclusion ) the last chapter is the final mangalam which has about 20 Slokam ( set to punnagavarali :jaya mangalam nithya sub ha mangalam.mangalam therefore marks the end of one part or the end of the program
Older generation people ,when they start writing in a page. First put OM and Subhamasthu. And end the page with Subham.
As stated by Rsachi and Bhakthim dehi mangalam has a religious connotation. It is supposed to usher in finally positive prayerful and auspicious sentiments. " mangalam is sung to confer mangalam or auspiciousness.
But Shri TMK has expressed that Bhakthi or religion are not necessary for C M. So while singing this he may not be praying for any auspiciousness which in his opinion is unnecessary.
Then why should he sing mangalam at all ?
If it is like any other Bhakthi song which he sings without Bhakthi to be sung anywhere , the next innovation could be Alapana ,neraval, swaram,thani with the mangalam.

natts1959 · Post by **natts1959** » 31 Aug 2015, 22:21

So this is exactly what TMK is aiming to do... This thread has generated more intensity and debate than any other recent thread!! Whether we agree with him or not, we still discuss him. can't ignore him!!

CRama.. May be he did it to break traditions .. Or may be to make new traditions.

I think I have gone far enough for people to typecast me as a TMK fan. I'm only a fan of good music n I did hear good music the other day.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 31 Aug 2015, 22:40

Answer to Post # 18 - VK, In sampradaya bhajan, we have two mangalams, one in the beginning called thodaya mangalam and in the end Arathi mangalam and may be more depends on simple to elaborate.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Sep 2015, 06:14

I will leave the TMK issue aside, I do not think we will get to any consensus. And there is really no need to get a consensus. Only thing I will state is the obvious point that some of you seem to be unforgivingly and disproportionately emphasizing the non musical aspects like sequence etc. compared to the music itself. So be it, we all come at this with different past baggages wrt TMK.

I like bhakthim dehi's suggestion that he should have sung another mangalam. At least that is a consistent point of view. But again, may be bhakthim dehi will be satisfied if he had done that but many of you would have still got on TMK's case for such innovations

probably even more strongly.

Anyway, enough of TMK and Mangalam. Let us sing Mangalam to that!

About Mangalam by itself, thanks VK Raman, bhakthim dehi and Ponbhairavi for the gyan ( VKR, excellent singing of that beginning mangalam piece ) . We have now established beyond doubt that Mangalam can be used in the beginning and in the middle ( if that middle section signifies a logical segment ) and at the end. I bet you, vast majority of the people out there will say Mangalam is only for the end. So let us not harp on things like 'Oh if you are that crazy, why don't you start the concert with a mangalam'. We now know that is not crazy at all. That is one of the points I wanted to establish. Whenever I need to point this fact to someone, I will just refer to this thread.

Sachi, if I may respectfully give you this assignment since you are good at looking up Sanskrit dictionary. I could not find the word Mangalam in any of the online Sanskrit dictionaries. It is possible I did not search with the right transliteration etc. See if you can find the word and the associated info like root etc. Thanks.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 01 Sep 2015, 07:46

Will this help: http://sanskritdictionary.org/mangalam

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 01 Sep 2015, 07:52

मङ्गलं is in Apte's with more than a column; As written here, it is in Samskritam. 'L' was not there, I think, earlier and when introduced, laLayor na bhedah was introduced perhaps. Some found fault with DKJ for pronouncing Sri Valli deva senapathe, insted of VaLLi. Actually, DKJ was right as Sivan's composition is in Samskritham. Normally, Tamizh people get this as well as many other Samskritham words wrong.
Mangalam is auspicious (starting meaning). It is blessing or benediction as well. Enough explanation has been furnished on its usage. It is as well to bear in mind that it is a convention and cannot be proved or disproved.
VK, you have said in passing that the order is non-musical, conceding what TMK has been vociferous about. Maybe that is not as decided.
Anyway, मङ्गलं.

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 01 Sep 2015, 08:45

In continuation of my post let me add by way of clarification:
thodayamangalam is not a song it is one angam ( first part ) of a bhajan.It consists of 4 songs:
song 1-Jaya Janaki consisting of 8 charanam in Nattai
song2-charanu charanu consisting of 5 charanam in Arabhi
song3-murahara nagadhara consisting of 6 charanam in Madhyamavathi
song4- Devesa consisting of 8 charanam in Saveri.
Only after singing the above four songs comes as song 5 madhava bhavathu te jaya mangalam consisting of 7 charanam in panthuvarali
one cannot commence a bhajan straightaway with madhva bhavathu.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Sep 2015, 08:46

VKR, kvchellappa, thanks. Those two came up in my search as well. I am looking for the full details of the derivation, root etc. http://sanskritdictionary.org/mangalam just gives links to where it is used in the prabupada books and not the dictionary entry.
Apte does not seem to provide that level of detail either.

Anyway, the various meanings given by Apte do not come anywhere close to indicating anything special about its use with ending. In fact, Apte relates mangalam to words like maṅgalya, maṅgalīya etc which are all commonly used in the context of auspiciousness alright but I do not think anyone would associate them with 'ending'. That use of mangalam to end something auspiciously just seems to be a convention as you stated. It makes sense of course. One wants to finish something in an auspicious manner but that is one 'use case' of many use cases where it can be employed but that is not the inherent meaning.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Sep 2015, 08:58

Ponbhairavi, thanks. Understood. That is the sequence in which our VKR sings them. I was using that example to shatter the widely held myth that mangalam implies 'ending'. The way it is used in Sampradaya Bajan makes perfect sense given the inherent meaning of 'auspiciousness'.

It is the standard elementary logical error people often commit called 'affirming the consequent'. If A then B does not imply if B then A. ( 'At the end sing mangalam' does not imply 'if mangalam is sung it signifies ending' ) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 01 Sep 2015, 10:37

A digression. A firm applied for a loan in the bank. The name of the firm was Shubham Industries. The manager turned down the application because 'Shubham' means 'end' and so did not augur well for the unit. (Tamizh films used to end that way).

sankark · Post by **sankark** » 01 Sep 2015, 11:24

I don't usually comment on TMK threads. But just so, let me throw this out.

8. Mangalam kosalendraya - Virutham in Bageshree, Sahana, Begada

What if he just sang that just a slokam/virutham and not intended as a mangalam. Or for that matter, if I have an urge to elaborate saurAshtra (madyamAvathi) and sing pavamAna in a concert with elaborate nereval and swarams? Should one not do it at all from now till eternity?

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 01 Sep 2015, 11:49

I think TMK is kind of setting a challenge for us. Can we talk just about the music without dragging in a lot of cultural aspects which are peripheral to the music? Looks like as a group we are failing. I do like the way the OP (natts1959) dealt with it. Thanks, natts, for the other S'pore reviews as well.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 01 Sep 2015, 11:55

Can we make once more sincere attempt at the understanding for true enjoyment and pleasure of happening moments.

1. The listening has to be in freedom from the past and focus on the future and be totally attentive to the present happening moments. In its absence, mind is in the state of being judgmental-Past Vs Present; Present Vs Future; past and future dominating influence taking away the present, either totally or in the present minimally. Missing the present, the judgment will be fraught with misconception and misunderstanding and lack of perception of the quality and quality of listening.

2. The listener with desire for recall pleasure expects to be served with such pleasure. When the expectation is not met, results in disappointment and even dismay. The listener with dejection rejects the offering. Mind in rejection wanting to feel secure with the judgment, focus and actions are on reason and justification. Seeks support from others and achieves satisfaction with their endorsement.

3. Identity, aims and objectives of different genre of music must be known. Karnataka Sangeetham is art form, distinct and different from other genre of music, including Nama Sankirtana/Bhajana. Aims and Objectives are also different. Aesthetics also are different. Listener in confusion on the aims and objectives with the lack of understanding ends up with conflicts. Pleasure of art experience is given amiss.

4. Bhakthi is of two kinds in performing art. One kind is Bhakthi for the Supreme Brahman and the form in the keertana, created by the composition and the composer. The focus and the attention is more on the sahithya bhavam and less on the raga bhavam. Other kind is Bhakthi for the aesthetic beauty in imagination, creativity and its potential in the composition, Bhakthi for the composer's realization and attainment. Also Bhakthi in re creativity of the original creativity with artists own imagination and also creativity with new insights in the stream of the original creative flow as its embellishment or ornamentation without the loss of quality. The style of presentation is for enhancing the delivery, delivery of pleasure. The focus and the attention are more on the raga bhavam and less on the sahithya bhavam.

5. In the practice of art form, there is no compulsion for convention. It's a treaty between or amongst the practitioners and the rasikas. Sampradaya is inheritance, creating and giving away the sampada, wealth of knowledge, talent, systems, practices and its avowed values for enabling, uplifting and enrichment. The giver and the seeker in relationship, understanding and appreciation are for contribution and enjoyment of the derivative pleasure. Tradition is body and works of excellence seamlessly absorbing the creativity, anew and afresh. Artist for one's own pleasure works for his creativity to establish the tradition and in its acceptance, endorsement, par taking the pleasure with rasikas.

6. Order and change in order are both parts of convention, established and being established. This is natural in thinking and actions. Conditioned mind with tendencies does not want change and prefers status quo, becoming one's own nature. Abhors the change brought in by actions and results of afresh, anew, unnaturally. Unsettle and uncondition the mind to gain freedom and enjoying the freedom in perception and deriving the pleasure of the present happening moments of creativity and beauty. This is real listening, attaining the pleasure and not any other.

If you have questions, you are most welcome.

munirao2001

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 01 Sep 2015, 21:35

Ponbairavi: #32 post - A small addition of two items to your list.

1. Mooshika Vahana Modaka Hasta
2. After Jaya Janaki Ramana, we do Mandaara Moole Madanaabhi raamam and then Saranu saranu

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 02 Sep 2015, 08:25

VK,
Affirming the consequent is very interesting. Thanks for the references.How many pitfalls in deducing what appears to be obvious!
It reminded me of the methodology in loci problems in college geometry

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 02 Sep 2015, 09:28

8. Mangalam kosalendraya - Virutham in Bageshree, Sahana, Begada

Maharajapuram Santhanam once sang a piece after Mangalam and then sang the Mangalam again (on audience request).

Semmangudi was one whose imagination couldn't be told, "Hey, it's Mangalam time. Cut the engine." -- while that would end the on-stage concert, this often resulted in his music continuing to run off the stage till he felt done (anyone privy to that is most welcome to share the experience). This could happen even on the way back from the concert and ending in more music at the hosts' house (with accompanists too), and I have heard that those concerts were actually his best music. And pray, how could you tell a TNR that the audience had enough of his raga alapana -- surely in today's concert scenario that would be ripped in the next day's newspaper? Surely one can't bring the curtains down if they finished 2/100 th of a second past the 9 p.m. mark.

There was an LGJ incident once narrated in the paper where he listened to so much of TNR that he realized it was 2 o'clock at night and he was stuck with no way back home, but for KVN who picked him up and let him stay overnight at his house.

There's a certain intensity at that slow tempo which was a revelation to me when he sang at IITM. After that concert (3 hr 30 min), I felt overwhelmed to the point where I wanted only silence, the intensity was just too great.

Venkataraman · Post by **Venkataraman** » 02 Sep 2015, 11:45

Looks like TMK has managed to do what he exactly wants! unwittingly, this is the most discussed thread amoung the recent posts

At the end of the day that's whats makes a star i think!

MV · Post by MV » 03 Sep 2015, 13:20

I have enjoyed reading this thread.Often, I was nodding and agreeing with the writer. I just want to add another viewpoint. Lots of times, the concert continues in the artistes' head well after the 2 hours on stage. So, really where does the 'mangalam' come

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 03 Sep 2015, 18:55

Chellappa,
'Non-concert' and 'all in vilamba kAlam' are also my reasons in wondering if I should attend a concert of his. The loss of not listening to him is mine, but his shuffling and dealing at random of numbers deprives me of the joy of a good concert experience. Not his fault, but it interferes with my listening capabilities...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Sep 2015, 04:27

Based on the one data point I have, I think you should give it a try if your concerns are only those two. In my case the format changes and slower than usual pace did not interfere with my enjoyment of the concert.

But TMK is not singing in Chennai this season, right? So it may be a moot point

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 04 Sep 2015, 05:35

Once we get used to certain pattern, we like repetition of that pattern no matter who sings. Let each individual decide who likes to listen to what, whom and what pattern IMHO.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Sep 2015, 05:57

Disclaimer

Whatever you do with the Body, Speech, Mind or the Sense Organs,
Either by discrimination of the Intellect, or by the deeper feelings of the Heart, or by the existing Tendencies of the Mind,
Those are the same reasons that compel you to attend TMK concerts
And you will not hold me responsible for any personal harm caused

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 04 Sep 2015, 07:52

Kokilam,
It's not as if I did not hear him after he got into the present haphazard mode (also, I'm familiar with HM concerts which have a lot of vilambit, lesser number of pieces too. I nonetheless appreciate their following the vilambit with drut

)

Let's take Brinda and Muktha, a fine example for vilamba kAlam singing--another style altogether, but all 'together'! The beauty of it carried you through as if in an uninterrupted journey. The new TMK on the other hand, very agreeable though his singing is, does not have the same effect on me as the sisters,as if a smooth journey by train gets interrupted by a sudden stop midway. The momentum which he builds up until then is gone for me and I listen to him hoping the next phase will be carrying him through smoothly to the end of the concert!

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 04 Sep 2015, 08:25

It is also true that the personality of the singer and our own also impacts our musical experience. That may not be ideal, but music is a facet of our life and experience and we do not become different in a musical experience. It may perhaps be difficult to get used to a 'disturbed' pattern. I can listen to certain pieces of TMK and enjoy, but to sit in a hall or the open for 3 hours (assuming it is not curtailed) and listen does not suit my impatience. The last I heard TMK live was in SriRamaseva Mandali and I left in the middle as it was not enjoyable for me or a youngster who does not have the prejudices that I have. Earlier I tried in Malleswaram (a long way from my home) and in New Horizon School auditorium, and the experience was not to my taste. His concerts of the pre-revolution era, I enjoyed immensely. I used to seek them out.

Sundara Rajan · Post by **Sundara Rajan** » 04 Sep 2015, 08:36

In our home, as in most Tamil homes, Sambar rice, Rasam rice, pAyasam and Dahi rice is the usual sequence of food service and the same order is followed in most wedding banquets. My late uncle insisted on having pAyasam at the end after Dahi rice, because his grandmother had told him that the revised order would grant him the boon of a kingdom ! While he had every right to do so at home, he may not be rewarded if he were to cater so at a wedding. Of course, nowadays wedding banquets are "buffet" type where one can consume any food in any order. TMK's concerts may be the buffet type.