Darwin and Music

RKrishnamurthy · Post by **RKrishnamurthy** » 18 Sep 2015, 08:56

I am no expert in Darwin's theory of evolution. That is not my field. But I learned that the gist of his theory is
this.
"Adapt or Die".

If I were to connect the theory with CM, successful CM musicians who have learned this are doing the following. They need to be applauded.

(1) Cross cultural percussion involving different percussionists from around the world.
(2) Carnatic jazz (whatever that means)
(3) Melharmony
(4) Fusion music ( the most ill dined word in the lexicon)

I open this topic for a healthy discussion and not to indulge in personal attacks.
Prof Krishnamurthy

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 18 Sep 2015, 13:32

Depends what your criteria for success is. For me, there are many successful Carnatic musicians who largely remain within the traditional box of Carnatic music. This year's Sangeetha Kalanidhi designate is an example.

If success is measured by recognition by Western audiences, then escapades into the realm of fusion music seem to required.

In terms of adaptation, I feel that Carnatic music has not changed too much despite some forays into fusion collaborations. For example, our ragas are not getting diluted to include more flat notes. On the other hand, some of the Western music genres, especially those with a improvisational component, are being influenced by Carnatic music especially its complex rhythmic structures and the rhythmic language used to codify the art form.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 18 Sep 2015, 13:59

Are you mentioning Jazz ,mohan?

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 18 Sep 2015, 19:02

RKrishnamurthy wrote: (1) Cross cultural percussion involving different percussionists from around the world.
(2) Carnatic jazz (whatever that means)
(3) Melharmony
(4) Fusion music ( the most ill dined word in the lexicon)

Are you saying if Carnatic musicians don't do the above they will "Die" or perish? You think carnatic music and it's practioners on it's / their own does not merit survival? Seriously? Are you out of your mind? Have you every been to a concert recently without your son in it? Take a look at the evening slots in the Music Academy for this year and let me know how many have done the above list?

/ harimau mode

Professor, don't forget your pills and stay of the internet. This is a carnatic music forum primarily, don't bite the hand that feeds you. Sheesh.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 18 Sep 2015, 19:08

He applied for anticipatory bail, but has been denied.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 18 Sep 2015, 19:46

And what is fundamentally wrong with cross cultural musical exchanges and experiments, or people migrating to India in search of opportunities (which btw is the next evolutionary adaption in CM)? Speaking of migrations, for the most part, it has been happening the other way round. For the same reasons.

Speaking of musical fusions, I agree it these new attempts are still discovering depth and haven't yet evolved to the extent of an established musical form that's been around for centuries, but still, It has been happening from the times of the Greeks at the very least, maybe even from the Sumerian times. What do you think is the basis for why we all use 12 tones? Or why the Mesapotamians are said to have used 20 of the 22 tones we have discussed often here?

And speaking of immigration, here's an incident. It happened in the days when it took much longer to go from one end of Tamilnadu to the other than it does to fly halfway around the world today and the meaning of the word "immigration" was somewhat different. A teenaged LGJ was apprehensive with his career lying ahead of him and he was getting noticed as an incredibly talented kid and getting offers to play in Madras. Before he left his village and came to Madras, he thought people would make comments like, "You're an immigrant to the city, kid. What's the matter? Couldn't get any chances as a musician in your village?" -- For which Gopala Iyer told him, "Don't worry. No one will say things like that." That is not a loose gossip from hearsay. It is in his biography. Think about THAT ...

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 18 Sep 2015, 21:14

Ravikiran is making a major impact in fusion of world music with cm IMO

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 19 Sep 2015, 00:03

Yes, Ravikiran's melharmony is noteworthy.

As for others who are experimenting, here at Rasikas.org, we hear them/hear about them. Not all experimentation is worth our while. That's all.

Another western music trained artiste born in a CM-oriented Chennai family, Anil Srinivasan, has succeeded in his efforts, sans much ado and noise, in my view.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 19 Sep 2015, 00:57

Don'r forget, T H Vinayakram, Ganesh & Kumaresh. The L brothers of course.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 19 Sep 2015, 03:10

MaheshS wrote:/ harimau mode

The result of going into this mode is called 'harimauling'....

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 19 Sep 2015, 03:54

rshankar wrote:
MaheshS wrote:/ harimau mode
The result of going into this mode is called 'harimauling'....

I have been harimauled.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 19 Sep 2015, 04:16

And here I was thinking it was you that had harimauled the good professor!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 19 Sep 2015, 04:18

Everyone,
Nearly time for 'talk' of Rasikas.org badge again!
"I've been harimauled!" can be a companion one

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 19 Sep 2015, 05:13

Each each who who in their style badge may be a good start

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 19 Sep 2015, 08:34

Don't know what it is, but when I tried to edit a line in my post, weird things happened! By the time I could type again, I had forgotten what was there! So, after all those edits, I just summarized.

VKR,
You are experiencing the same thing?

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 19 Sep 2015, 11:54

Darwin and Music, yes it has similarity in the sense the evolution, creation and scientific theories and findings are hailed as revolutionary and also rejected, equally. But they remain not going out of theoretical speculation, studies and publications of reports. Music is continuum with creation, evolution, experimentation and innovative offerings with aim of offering pleasure and monetizing the pleasure giving actions.
From the general 'music' let us examine and understand our prime interest in 'Classical' music -Karnataka Sangeetham. Practitioner strives and achieves acceptance, recognition and reward. After achieving status of artistic realization and well being in living, their constant urge for creativity results in thinking and working on new facets and aspects of Karnataka Sangeetham. With centuries of evolution, history and body of works of great significance of many artists, in the past and in the present; the discovery, its value and offer pleasure by the artist is highly difficult and extremely rare. Its acceptance also takes long time even with right endorsement by the opinion makers or no one is willing to critically examine, study and express their views or at worst, simply ignored. Artist with constant urge for imagination and ideas looks for other avenues, other than his own specialization for expression, performance, recognition and reward. Establishing relationship with artists with similar state, works on collaboration for higher or wider recognition and higher financial and living status.
The collaboration making demands on the technical virtuosity, achieves virtuosity or fails. Artists consumed by the success and technical virtuosity become obsessed with their higher skills. Musical value becomes subservient to the technical virtuosity, high profile and visibility resulting in self centric being. Only those rasikas/listeners who are looking for excitement and pulsating experience of sounds of such music, which constitute a vast majority, celebrate such music and such artist. A small percentage of rasikas/listeners that are looking for meditative and tranquilizing qualities of classical music, reject the music and the artist. The temptation of performing to big crowd/audience, receiving their adulation, achieving highest support from event managers and the media, the affluence status takes away his original intent and content. As a popular performer, achieves and as a artist of impeccable artistry and values, miserably fails. Only few notice and care. Such artist mind becomes conditioned with 'why bother and care' attitude.
It is very rare for artist to keep the integrity, focus and belief on higher values of the classical music and remaining humble while enjoying the success and resultant pleasures. Such great genius and great maestro artist serves the noble cause of classical music, its growth and development, uncompromisingly. Such artist sets example that while being a great genius and maestro of a classical music system, innovation and creation in collaboration with other artists of great merits only enhances the appreciation and respect for the classical music system his identity is firmly established. Such artists realize the finer aspects of other classical music systems and its practitioners, which can inspire and raise the bar of aspirations. Few Great Genius and Great Maestros readily come to our mind are Sri M.S.Gopala Krishnan, Sri Chitraveena Ravikiran, Pandit Ravi Shankar, Yehudi Menuhin Sir, Ustad Zakir Hussain. They have all achieved the ideals of Vedanta-Being Pure Conscious; Being Creative; Being Delight.

munirao2001

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 19 Sep 2015, 13:34

arasi wrote:Everyone,
Nearly time for 'talk' of Rasikas.org badge again!
"I've been harimauled!" can be a companion one

Wear It With Pride!

Sundara Rajan · Post by **Sundara Rajan** » 19 Sep 2015, 19:28

Yes Arasi, It is time to seriously think about a "Rasikas.org" batch. Let us not instead waste our time on what Dr. R.K. has to say. I am considering, health permitting, to attend the "December Season" concerts this time and meet our forumites.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 19 Sep 2015, 19:40

Nick,
You mean, 'don't wear it'

The once a year topic is worn out. We don't wear them because they don't materialize.However, the topic may resurface

An example of bhArathi's 'vAichollil vIraraDi' (big talk, no action)! In all the meets, once have we worn them--that is, make-do ones at the last minute--piece of paper (thread hung)!

As for the other badge, we would rather have Harimau in our midst

rather than sport his jungle image

Sundara Rajan,
Just as I was about to submit this, I saw your post. Hope you can make it to the season in good health. I am hoping to be there too

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 19 Sep 2015, 21:31

rshankar wrote:And here I was thinking it was you that had harimauled the good professor!

Just coining a phrase

I honestly don't know if the Prof is doing this on purpose ... a daft post IMO.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 19 Sep 2015, 22:17

RKrishnamurthy wrote:I am no expert in Darwin's theory of evolution. That is not my field. But I learned that the gist of his theory is
this.
"Adapt or Die".

Actually, I don't think it is... so shall we skip the rest?

Of course, it isn't my field either, but I'm not an academic, so nobody can even begin to expect me to get my quotes, theories, upshots or even gists right.

Or, to put it another way... Tosh!

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 20 Sep 2015, 07:41

I thought Darwin wrote about evolution of species and not arts. Probably the author means 'Darwin and Musicians' and not 'Music'. Art is in the collective consciousness of the society. It is never born and it never dies. Musicians do come and go, but not music. Music is as eternal as Universe, it has no death. It may need evolution to differentiate.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 20 Sep 2015, 08:35

The professor applies the principle of evolution to music. As Nick suggested, he may be oversimplifying Darwin. The point that music is evolving seems right. Even within the frontiers of classical music, changes occur.
Can it be said with certainty that art and music are not abstractions by man except on belief? I wonder whether the swaras and ragas do exist naturally.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 20 Sep 2015, 09:19

Honestly, what do you think is the only aspect of music that is --- the oldest, ever present, the constant, the unchanging, the one which remains truest to the "traditional understanding of the word tradition" in music, the one where we faithfully follow our seniors as they did before us, the oldest and most well established of all sampradayas, the one which in my opinion has never evolved in principle

?

Ans : Criticism

Yes, the greatest tradition of Carnatic Music IS criticism.

Idolatory is a distant second -- you will not be able to see it in the rear-view mirror.

Ok. "I love it" is probably the greatest aspect of music -- but it doesn't qualify strictly as a tradition (the way we like to use the word) because unlike criticism which is necessarily an occupational hazard of musicians and music lovers alike, you cannot force love of music on me. Also, anyone can be a critic, and all of us are one at many times.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 20 Sep 2015, 09:38

It is said there are no inventions, but only discoveries. What we call inventions are nothing more than innovations - man cannot invent anything. Swaras and rAgas do exist naturally - they are only discovered.

Indian music is not meant for instant gratification - yes, these suggestions by the author come in the category of instant gratification - probably that is where money is. Well, who can stop these innovations? Music is not the preserve of musicians only. The rasika is very much part of the system.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 20 Sep 2015, 15:01

I am no expert in Darwin's theory of evolution. That is not my field. But I learned that the gist of his theory is
this."Adapt or Die".

I took a One day course and became a specialist . Look what I've found !

Terms
Common Descent - The belief that all present life evolved from a few common ancestors.
All present music evolved from the seven notes and 12 (or 22 ?) intervals

Gradualism - The Darwinian belief that evolution takes place in innumerable small steps. Led Darwin to believe that the world was much older than previously thought.
If your Dad is a Sangeetha Kalanidhi . forget about becoming one . Or get adopted by one who is not Sangeetha Kalanidhi

Darwinism - The theory of evolution proposed by Charles Darwin. It holds that species change over time and that this change comes about through the mechanism of natural selection.
Music does indeed change with time . For instance from the practice of singing what one believed in , to the present day practice of singing what the audience wants

Natural Selection - The theory holding that competition exists within species, determining which species live to have offspring, and pass their traits on to those offspring..
Competition in music determines which species gets weary of the pillow fight and starts sulking . And sings to audiences of less than ten , mostly friends and family members

Population Speciation - The Darwinian belief that there are random phenotypic variations within species that confer advantages selected for by natural selection; these variations can be passed from parent to offspring.
Can be passed , true , but rarely picked up by offspring.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 20 Sep 2015, 16:31

Thank you professor (Honorary ) varsha. I think you nailed it. Well said.

It's possible that the opening post of the thread might have had some points to make, other than the customary advertising campaign associated with its author, but, as an academic ought to know, inaccuracy and a very strained analogy is a bad start to any proposition.

I don't even know if Darwin actually used the words "survival of the fittest," another phrase which has become inextricably linked with his name, but it does not mean (as often supposed) that the big bruisers' offspring will (to borrow from the bible*) inherit the world. It means that green moths may do very well among green trees, but if the trees change, over a long period of time, to having purple leaves, then those odd moths that get born purple, and have purple offspring, will be the survivors --- and purple will win the day. Or, rather, many days, many generations.

*irrelevant, but my favourite bible joke: The meek shall inherit the world ...if that's ok with the rest of you

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 20 Sep 2015, 17:47

Poor Darwyn and Einstein, two misunderstood geniuses!

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 20 Sep 2015, 18:39

*irrelevant, but my favourite bible joke: The meek shall inherit the world ...if that's ok with the rest of you

You sound gracious in not remembering this quote :

The English are indeed mentioned in the Bible . Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth ..Matthew 5:5

On a serious note , thanks for catching my drift that this is a theory explaining millions of years of change

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 20 Sep 2015, 19:43

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/20 ... egion&_r=0

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 20 Sep 2015, 20:12

A wonderful article. Thanks to Sri shankarank and also the Professor for giving an occasion for this to manifest.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 20 Sep 2015, 21:19

varsha wrote: You sound gracious in not remembering this quote :
The English are indeed mentioned in the Bible . Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth ..Matthew 5:5
On a serious note , thanks for catching my drift that this is a theory explaining millions of years of change

Cheers, yes... tiny changes over a long period of time, is what I picked up from a brief look at Wikipedia. I'm told that there appear to be mysterious jumps in evolution that cannot be explained so easily. Well, without mystery, we can all go home, including the scientists, who would be the first ones out of their jobs!

I like the quote, but I am sorry to say that, if there was one thing that my ancestors did not do before over-running other people's countries, it was to ask politely!

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 20 Sep 2015, 22:33

The Titanic music of the golden age will be sunk so deep into the abyss - we need a kUrma avatar to retrieve it ( fusion of mythologies

). But like the scriptures it likely won't die. The Olympians who came after them want to take their music ( or sport ?) to the Olympics along with T20 cricket. If cricket has to adapt why not music?

Our SK designate sang in the Winter one in Utah some time back. We just need a more formal entry as a sport.

And Cleveland will enact an opera with fused mythologies soon!

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 21 Sep 2015, 06:42

And now where is the professor? Probably not interested in the way this has shaped?

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 21 Sep 2015, 08:11

ganesh_mourthy wrote:And now where is the professor?

Hopefully adapting!

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 21 Sep 2015, 17:54

Philosophy is inquiry of established or yet to be established knowledge and seeking answers; gaining insights out of conflicts of beliefs and faiths resulting in perceptions of reality; sharing insights which have supported one’s own existence, living with pleasure with the public. Raising only questions and offering only answers to the raised questions are only parts but never the whole.
Observe the play of beliefs and faiths here. Inquire, if interested in joining the discussion to share or simply ignore if not interested.

munirao2001

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 21 Sep 2015, 22:00

let us get back to original topic - rasikas badge!!!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 22 Sep 2015, 01:25

VK RAMAN wrote:let us get back to original topic - rasikas badge!!!

It didn't adapt... it died.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 22 Sep 2015, 01:29

VK RAMAN wrote:let us get back to original topic - rasikas badge!!!

It didn't adapt... it died.

munirao2001 wrote:Philosophy is ...

But this is not philosophy: it is a false premise followed by idle chat. Why? Because we like idle chat!

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 22 Sep 2015, 01:51

Rao Garu Uvacha.

munirao2001 wrote:Philosophy is inquiry of established or yet to be established knowledge and seeking answers; gaining insights out of conflicts of beliefs and faiths resulting in perceptions of reality; sharing insights which have supported one’s own existence, living with pleasure with the public. Raising only questions and offering only answers to the raised questions are only parts but never the whole.
Observe the play of beliefs and faiths here. Inquire, if interested in joining the discussion to share or simply ignore if not interested.

Now can you translate that for us "harimaulus" ??

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 22 Sep 2015, 07:43

How did rasikas badge become the original topic? By evolution?

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 22 Sep 2015, 08:18

I see this thread getting abandoned by the natural selection process in <Countdown begins -- 10...9...8...>

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 22 Sep 2015, 08:31

kvchellappa wrote:How did rasikas badge become the original topic? By evolution?

Devolution, perhaps??? (Retrograde evolution!)

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 22 Sep 2015, 11:07

MaheshS Sir,

It's belief transforming in to faith, with acceptance and endorsement of irritability, rejection resulting in anger with Pride and Prejudice as driving force. Also a kind of seeking veiled pleasure.

Nick.H.Sir,
It's philosophy, it's inquiry and exchange of communication of experience. Appearing like 'idle' but 'active', thinking and expressing. Philosophy as a subject is established with the image and identity of 'deep' thinking, serious in nature both physical and metaphysical. It is only partly correct. Frivolous can turn in to purposeful and meaningful with mindscape.

Can we engage in discussion in acceptance of RKSir's request? I have already posted my understanding and awaiting the response.

munirao2001

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 22 Sep 2015, 12:58

munirao2001 wrote:Frivolous can turn in to purposeful and meaningful with mindscape.

Very true. Wisdom can even be in frivolity.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 22 Sep 2015, 15:08

Nick.H.Sir,

Wisdom can even be in frivolity.

How? No, Never. Wisdom is quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgement based on sensible or wise thinking. But, behavior of wise man may be at times frivolous arisen being impromptu and reacting, a human frailty.

munirao2001

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 22 Sep 2015, 15:20

Munirao Sir, you must certainly have come across the Shakespearean fool! You will find him saying frivolous things that are gems. Oscar Wilde and Mark Twain are two great writers who say what looks in lighter vein, but is crystallised wisdom.
Wisdom is not something sober, but sensible.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 22 Sep 2015, 16:26

Old English saying: Many a true word spoken in Jest

Actually, it means that, without knowing it, and trying to be funny, a person may actually have hit upon the truth.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 23 Sep 2015, 10:34

Nick.H.Sir,

It is also art of telling/unraveling the truth, either unintentionally or intentionally, to sink in reality later after the wave of laughter sweeps initially and subsides ashore of ocean of knowledge.

munirao2001

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Sep 2015, 10:51

One such statement which I always quote is 'If I had more time, I would have written a shorter letter'! Funny and quite profoundly true.

(Over the years it is attributed to a lot of people include Twain, Shah etc. but it looks like it is by Blaise Pascal
'Je n’ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n’ai pas eu le loisir de la faire plus courte' Modern English translation is 'I have made this longer than usual because I have not had time to make it shorter.' )