rasikas.org

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 05 Sep 2015, 11:06

As I understand, RTP is for giving an exhaustive treatment to a raga and giving free expression to the manodharma of the artist. If that understanding is correct, how does truncating it serve the purpose? Or, how is creativity stifled in a format that is born to encourage creativity?
If a raga has limited scope, so be it. Why can’t there be RTP for a reduced duration within the available scope of that raga? Why should not such downtrodden ragas be given a fair treatment?
Is there an equivalent of RTP in HM?

classical91 · Post by **classical91** » 06 Sep 2015, 16:56

The RTP is absolutely a means of exploring a raga's creative breadth and depth. However, I believe that it certainly is not solely meant for that purpose - in fact, an expansive ragam can be sung for a 'main' kriti, with trikaala neraval, and that serves the purpose. The speciality of a Ragam Thanaam Pallavi lies in the latter two words - the Thaanam and Pallavi. The Thaanam (which has its origins from veena playing, as most would know) is unique particularly to this piece. Coming to the pallavi, again, it is not the speciality of singing a palace with trikaalam that is special. In fact, it is the technical prowess that is to be exhibited. Veenai Balachander had summed it up perfectly in a LecDem - it is up to a musician's capabilities to do justice to an RTP.

Anyone can memorise a pallavi, practice trikaalam, and deliver it with some neraval and swaras. The key technicalities to be considered while singing a pallavi (lesser so these days and more so in the yesteryears) could be summarised as:

1. Thaanam singing - there are several types of thaanam, most of which are available only as text and are applicable to veena playing (any vainikas on this forum would be able to expand better on this).

2. The structure of the pallavi - a pallavi need not have be overly complicated, but can sill have a simplistic mathematical structure like a Yathi, or praasam. The pallavi is (most commonly) divided into two portions, separated by a vishranthi. Maintaining the akshara count for this vishranthi is also key. More able musicians may play around with a more complicated eduppu (araikaal, kal-araikaal, arai-araikaal, etc), and the vishranthi count.

3. Maintaining the word positioning in a pallavi - this is unique to pallavi singing, and is not practiced in the neraval singing where words can be displaced from their original thala position to allow for elongated akaaras, etc.)

4. The expansion of the raga (not necessarily unique to a pallavi) - this was usually the base for selection of ragas in yesteryears pallavis. The most common ragas chosen for palace singing were ghana ragas and rakthi ragas (e.g. saveri, bhairavi, shankarabharanam, thodi, kalyani, karaharpriya, etc.), where creativity came easy. It was quite uncommon to hear a pallavi in, say, a hindustani-based raaga, or an owdava raaga. This has definitely become more prominent today, and there is absolutely nothing wrong - if someone can sing a bhimplas for 45 minutes, and strikes a chord with the audience, why not?

5. It is to be noted that pallavis of yesteryear rarely had complicated/lengthy thaalams. They could even be set to roopakam, and still have a simple mathematical or lyrical beauty to it. Pallavis sung by DKP and DKJ are probably the best examples of simple thaalas, simple structure, and undeniable beauty. Even practitioners of pallavis in 'complicated' thaalams have admitted that this more of a personal exercise and challenge. It would be unsuitable to most audiences. It was also common to sing 4 kalai pallavis (which are nearly extinct today), which provide much more freedom to expand on the words of the pallavi and allowing for more bhavam, without messing up the positioning. A fine balance between technicality and aesthetic appeal (maybe even with a bit more of the latter) provides for the best kind of music!

The RTP of today has 'evolved' to meet the demands of an audience, most of who want a lot of content and 'variety' in a short period of time. If people want to listen to a 2 hour concert with an RTP, some member requests, then some 'light' pieces, the artist has no choice but to shorten every piece. Indeed, an RTP used to be at least an hour to an hour and a half long. Today, even some concerts don't last as long! There is no one particularly at fault - as the mindset of the audience evolves, the musician evolves to meet the demand. This was probably why a lot of great vidwans went unnoticed, or did not get the popularity they deserved - SKR (top of the list), Ramnad Krishnan, Oleti, etc.

While the pallavi used to be about the above mentioned 5 points, today it's become more about the wow factor - unheard raagas, ragamalika, etc. Mis-directioning by a few artists in the past has given audience the opinion that a pallavi is a fight between the artist and the words, with the mridhanga vidwan chipping in some more blows. Today, many consider it to be very noisy, and beyond their capabilities of technical comprehension. This is probably why the RTP is slowly vanishing, or changing its form to seem more 'tame' and 'attractive'.

It is quite unfortunate to see something as simple with a huge creative potential for the artist go waste. Finishing with a collated observation which was mentioned by many artists including Veena S Balachander, and TRS in separate LecDems - People should understand that not all of the 'great' vidwans were masters of the trade. Everyone had his/her own speciality - maybe an appealing singing style, or a mesmerising voice. This does not mean that everything they do is 'right'. Everyone has his/her own creative limits, and if you listen to the right people, your interpretation of the pallavi will be completely different. While this statement may be controversial, particularly amongst die-hard fans of many artists, my personal belief is that there is truth to it. Not everyone was an expert in pallavi, and their popularity has unfortunately changed the interpretation of the RTP. Of course, there is no 'right' or 'wrong' - if people like it, the artist sings it. Absolutely fine. However, there is tradition, and there are very few who are upholding that.

I do apologise if my post is a bit opinionated, or if it has any statements that may offend or seem mistaken to more technically sound people!

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 06 Sep 2015, 18:16

Thanks. It is useful to me.

KSJaishankar · Post by **KSJaishankar** » 06 Sep 2015, 18:27

The Tarana in Hindustani music is more similar to our Thillana than Taanam. The closest component in HM to Taanam is a part of Dhrupad music which is called "Nom-Tom ka Aalap".

Anyway, the structure of presentation is HM is quite different from CM. and even within HM, Instrumental concerts have a different way they approach the concert than the vocalists. It is quite a futile exercise to map the two systems in terms of presentation components.

classical91 · Post by **classical91** » 06 Sep 2015, 18:37

KSJaishankar wrote:The Tarana in Hindustani music is more similar to our Thillana than Taanam. The closest component in HM to Taanam is a part of Dhrupad music which is called "Nom-Tom ka Aalap".

Anyway, the structure of presentation is HM is quite different from CM. and even within HM, Instrumental concerts have a different way they approach the concert than the vocalists. It is quite a futile exercise to map the two systems in terms of presentation components.

Rectified! I've heard Ustad Faiyaz Khan sing something called 'poornrag alaap' (I think!) in one of his recordings - probably something similar? Or the same?

EDIT: Found it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYoWozpdKZg

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 07 Sep 2015, 07:15

Ustad Faiyaz Khan sing something called 'poornrag alaap' (I think!) in one of his recordings - probably something similar? Or the same?

We are now getting closer to why South Indians could cherish Agra Gharana the most

And why Fayyaz Khan remains a very fascinating and influential name till date .
And why soirees like these were a rage in SGS Sabha Chennai in the 60s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yqk_DE_Grg
From wikipedia

Agra gharana
Agra Gharana is a tradition of Hindustani classical vocal music descended from the Nauhar Bani. So far, Nauhar Bani has been traced back to around 1300 AD, during the reign of Emperor Allauddin Khilji of Delhi.
The first known musician of this tradition is Nayak Gopal. The style prevalent then in the Gharana was “Dhrupad-Dhamar”. Ustad Ghagghe Khudabuksh (1790-1880 AD) introduced the “Khayal” style of Gwalior Gharana into Agra gharana which Khudabaksh learnt from Natthan Paribaksh of Gwalior. Furthermore the Khayal style of Atrauli gharana was added in the late 19th century.
Distinguishing characteristics
The gayaki of the Agra Gharana is a blend of khayal gayaki and Dhrupad - Dhamar. In training, both the khayal and dhrupad components run hand in hand and are not taught in an isolated fashion. This is obvious from the svaroccara (The method of singing notes) of the Agra Gharana which demands that the projection of voice be more forceful and voluminous than encountered in khayal gayaki.The svarocarra of the gharana is also reminiscent of Dhrupad in which swaras are uttered open and bare (without grace notes).
Most khayal performances by artists of Agra gharana commence with the nom - tom alaap, a tradition unique to the Agra gharana. Different facets of a raga are displayed with the help of bandish or cija while the raga is liberated using vistaar. The use of bandish or cija for performing a raga is ubiquitous in all
Hindustani classical music gharanas but cheez or bandish occupy a special position in the teaching methodology of the Agra Gharana.
The gharana adopts a kind of voice production which relies on a flatter version of the vowel sound "a"`, which makes its music agreeable to rhythmic variations and is best suited for a deep masculine voice. Emphasis is laid on bold, full-throated and robust voice production, and singing in the lower register (mandra) is favoured. Keeping in tune with its dhrupadic origins, the singers use broad and powerful ornamentations (gamaks), extensive glides (meends), and resonant articulations of notes. As with the Gwalior gharana, the Agra singers accentuate the importance of the bandish and its methodical exposition. Singers following Faiyaz Khan`s style resort to the dhrupadic nom tom alaap before singing the bandish. The singers of this gharana are also great masters over laya-kari or the rhythmic component. In fact, laya-kari is the lasting foundation on which the singers build the edifice of the bandish. In the hands of the best exponents, the dialogue between the singer and the tabla player often turns into a dramatic event. Their tihais are eagerly awaited, as are their nifty ways of arriving at the same, by building up anticipation within the listener.
This is the only Gharana that has still continued to sing Dhrupad-Dhamar along with Nom-Tom Alap, Khayal, Thumri, Tappa, Tarana, Hori, Dadra, Ghazal, Kaul, Rasiya etc.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 07 Sep 2015, 14:43

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/3baciq7 ... arbari.mp3

Somewhere in one of the quieter streets of Bengaluru , lives , the singer of the above track.
From a concert that was held three decades ago , in my hometown , six hours away from the city .

Chennai never bothered to invite this Vidushi , yet , this was a hit track when I posted it here a decade ago .
Rumblings of a distant past , the likes of which will be difficult to come across in present times .
The very thought of Fayyaz Khan gives me goose bumps , going by what someone in his lineage could produce several decades later .
Enough of HM , here in this thread , I suppose.
There is this Music for the Kings . The Kings among listeners . That is what a fine full fledged RTP is all about

Sreeni Rajarao · Post by **Sreeni Rajarao** » 07 Sep 2015, 18:06

Varsha avare,

Thanks for yet another beautiful recording! I think I know who the Vidushi is. I will wait for others to guess.

classical91 · Post by **classical91** » 07 Sep 2015, 19:09

Was that Lalith Rao? Not too familiar with that Gharana, TBH. If yes, that's quite a good (needless to say, rare) recording!

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 07 Sep 2015, 19:46

Correct

classical91 · Post by **classical91** » 07 Sep 2015, 20:13

On second thought, there's a recording of Ram Chatur Mallick (Darbhanga Gharana) singing a nom-thom alaap.

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/v1ul2rx ... nomtom.mp3

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 07 Sep 2015, 22:26

This thread is shaping up to be one of the 5-star threads. Enjoyed listening to all the tracks and learning from all the info provided. Treat to both the ears and the mind. Thanks all.

Is this true then?: Nom-Thom -> ThomNom-> Tanam

classical91, regarding the vishranthi that separates the pUrvAngA and uttarAnga of the pallavi section, do you know why the dominant stress at the beginning of the vishranthi is called Arudi or pada garbam. (Arudi in other contexts refers to the end but here it is typically bang in the middle).
More significant question: Where is that point for the other 6 tala types? ( For triputa talas, it is the first beat of the the first drutham) E.g.
For talas with multiple laghus ( e.g ata ), can there be two arudhi/vishranthi in that pallavi line?

Thanks.

KSJaishankar · Post by **KSJaishankar** » 08 Sep 2015, 03:07

VK - this now is an interesting question on the Arudi, where the answer may lie in HM. In HM, the Arudi spot is called the Sam (cognate with our Samam?) their layakari is focused on landing on the Sam, and the eduppu is not of much significance. In that sense, the Sam represents the one defined spot of the tala cycle, and the same syllable has to land there every time, so it is the fixed end of a round of layakari (taans, swarams, their neraval etc.).

Since the Arudi in a Pallavi is a point of stress syllable-wise, I find it more pleasing when the Arudi is maintained during the faster speed or during tisram during trikaalam neraval, rather than maintaining the eduppu for the same exercise (which is the common practice). You can see this during trikaalam neraval of Pallavis by the late TRS. Among current singers, I have seen the Mallari brothers do it at the end of the second speed neraval.

On Arudis in the other six talas, anecdotal evidence as below. Can't state with any confidence if these are the rules, or even the norm:

Dhruva: 2 Arudis, one on Dhrutam and second on the start of the third Laghu (eg TMK/RKSK's dasavatara pallavi in Sankarabharanam)
Mathya: Dhrutam (eg TRS's mohanam pallavi - Velai Panivade Nam Velai)
Rupaka: the cycle is normally reversed, with the Laghu placed before Dhrutam - then the Arudi is placed at the Dhrutam. Vaguely remember an MLV pallavi. In this structure In the Rupaka sung with three beats, it's the start of the cycle (eg Mahima Teliya Tarama by ARI in Sankarabharanam)
Jhampa: don't remember any off hand. Would expect it to be on the anudhrutam.
Ata: I think there are 2 Arudis, at the start of the second Laghu and on the first Dhrutam. I think there is a pallavi by Pantula Rama, which follows this - incidentally has three different nadais in the three parts.
Eka: start of the cycle (eg TRS's Tisra nadai Khanda Eka pallavi in Abheri - Paahai Urugu Nenje)

On the subject of Arudi in other talas, in Misra Chapu, I have noticed it to be usually at the start of the 3+4 cycle. Off hand examples, Era na Sami pagavaari in Kambhoji (SSI) and Kanaka Sabhesan Darishanam Kanden in Simhendramadhyamam (SKR). I cannot recollect hearing a Pallavi in Tisra Chapu or Khanda Chapu. Have only heard of a Pallavi by TRS in Sankeerna Chapu.

Interestingly, in a concert in Bangalore, Sanjay sang a Pallavi in Khanda Triputa wherein the Arudi was on the first Veechu (seventh beat) rather than the first Dhrutam (sixth beat). Never heard that before or since.

classical91 · Post by **classical91** » 08 Sep 2015, 03:10

While I'm in no way a technical expert on things, I couldn't pass the opportunity to answer these questions!

OK, this answer is, to a major portion, what I gathered from discussions with my guru and recordings of lecdems, etc. My interpretation of arudi is that it denotes the end of the Poorvankam with the landing on the samam, and not the middle of the pallavi itself. I have heard Vedavalli maami mention in a LecDem that the origin of the word 'arudi' is unknown - it could very well be from the tamil word 'arudhittu solluthal' which has the meaning 'theermanam'. However, this is mere speculation.

This point (arudhi) is only 'bang in the middle' (as you put it) for thaalams like the chatusra triputa (adhi thalam), due to it's symmetric (8x+8x) structure. In case of the other thaalams like the ata thaalam, there can definitely be two arudhis - these pallavis are called 'rettai pallavis'. I've certainly heard several pallavis set to khanda ata or chatusra ata, with arudhis/vishranthis at the end of each lagu.

A good example is the Nattakuranji pallavi in chatusra ata sung by SKR (Sarasa dala nayana||Sankata Harana||Hare Maam paahi): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF94N4hn2es

Interestingly, pallavis without arudhi also exist - these would predominantly in thalas like simhanandana, sarabhanandana, and lakshmisha. However, these are rather obsolete.

classical91 · Post by **classical91** » 08 Sep 2015, 03:29

There are few more curious cases for the arudhi - in the pallavi 'Un dharushanam kidaikumO natarAje dhayAnidhE', (Adhi thaalam, 2 kalai, 4 thalli) the arudhi occurs at the syllable 'RA' of 'NataRAje. So it's a hanging arudhi till the next aksharam, where the 'je' is uttered, and then there is a (second?) vishrathi.

KSJaishankar · Post by **KSJaishankar** » 08 Sep 2015, 03:45

Good point classical91. It's commoner than you would expect - Era Na Sami Pagavari has the Arudi on Va, rather than ri. TRS's Pallavi Vaibhave Vinave Shive Vegame, Brovave has the Arudi on Ve of Vegame; that is when the gopuccha pattern show well finishing on VE as the stress syllable in each of the words.

classical91 · Post by **classical91** » 08 Sep 2015, 03:48

Oh yes, i forgot about those two! TRS has particularly mentioned this in his pallavi LecDem (I think he demonstrated the pallavi in Nattakuranji, but I've heard him sing in other ragams during concerts). The Yathi was quite cleverly thought out too!

KSJaishankar · Post by **KSJaishankar** » 08 Sep 2015, 22:47

Varsha... Just heard the phenomenal Darbari! The nom-thom alaap is just wow. Made me want to hear tanam in Darbari Kaanada on the Veena.

I fail to understand why there is a belief that singing RTP in ragas such as this almost treated as an insult to Carnatic Music. It's not that RTP in such ragas will sound the death knell for our big 5, or other quintessentially CM ragas like Dhanyasi, Mukhari, Ritigaula, Begada etc. very clearly this is also a raga with enormous scope, and would shine well in the tanam!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Sep 2015, 23:40

Thanks Jaishankar and classical91 for all the excellent information about Arudi positions in various talas with the right examples. These are the topics where our forum shines, a good mixture of samples provided by Varsha and good background information on the technicalities. I wrote elsewhere that when I attended the Music Academy morning lectures, I felt we had covered a few of those topics at much more detail in our forum. A bit presumptuous, but this thread will be such an example if and when there is a MA morning session on RTPs of various talas!!

Jaishankar, Varsha: yes, that darbari piece is excellent. btw, I am sure there are people who hold such opinions about suitable ragas for RTP but I do not think that is the thought leader opinion regarding ragas like Darbari kanada. May be about Patdeep kind of ragas whose identity is not entrenched in the collective consciousness of CM rasikas in general. So yes, artists go for it with Darbari Kanada. It is quintessential crowd favorite,anyway.

Just a few odds and ends.

Jaishankar, got your point about HM where the Sam gets the big stress and also the rendevouz point so everyone can align themselves both technically and aesthetically. I also like the CM practice of shifting that stress point to the middle of the tala cycle. Like you wrote, given the eduppu considerations, arudi to arudi provides the strong anchor points. Only place where Arudi-Eduppu is crucial is the big korvai in the thani so the main artist take off point causes the right excitement due to the natural transition.

classical91, just a minor thing. can you clarify this sentence "My interpretation of arudi is that it denotes the end of the Poorvankam with the landing on the samam, and not the middle of the pallavi itself.". While I see that it need not be the middle of the pallavi ( as in center which only works for symmetric talas like Adi ), what do you refer to as 'landing on the samam'. Not the samam of the tala, right? May be, samam as samam of the following drutham or Laghu?

Finally on terminology

a) Why is that arudi point also called 'pada garba'?
b) Is there any validity on my speculation about Nom-Thom -> ThomNom-> Tanam ? ( especially with Nick's spelling Thonum he occasionally uses

)

KSJaishankar · Post by **KSJaishankar** » 09 Sep 2015, 00:16

VK - going out on a limb here. Pada would be the words of the Pallavi (there is a school of thought which explains the term Pallavi to be an acronym for Pada Laya Vinyasa) and if we take Garbha to be the place of birth, the Pada Garbha would be the place from where the Pallavi germinates. (Honestly, my explanation sounds contrived even to me

)

As you mentioned, the arudi is the key anchor point of the Pallavi. When you are listening to a Pallavi without the benefit if seeing the artiste keep talam, it is easier to count the aksharas Arudi to Arudi, rather than eduppu to eduppu.

Your speculation sounds right - Taanam (supposed to be a corruption of Anantam) and Nom-Tom sound cognate anyway.

classical91 · Post by **classical91** » 09 Sep 2015, 02:08

vasanthakokilam wrote: classical91, just a minor thing. can you clarify this sentence "My interpretation of arudi is that it denotes the end of the Poorvankam with the landing on the samam, and not the middle of the pallavi itself.". While I see that it need not be the middle of the pallavi ( as in center which only works for symmetric talas like Adi ), what do you refer to as 'landing on the samam'. Not the samam of the tala, right? May be, samam as samam of the following drutham or Laghu?

Yes, that is exactly what I meant - samam, as in samam of the dhrutham. I can see where the confusion arises, as the term 'samam' is more widely used to denote the eduppu! I tend to refer to the latter as 'graha' in case of pallavi - samagraha (samam eduppu), atita graha (before samam) and anAgata graha (after samam).

Nom-thom alaap, or poornrag alaap (apparently they are the same, as conveyed to me by a friend who's more familiar with HM), seem to be the closest to our thaanam, but I'll leave the comparison there!

I honestly do not know of the origins of the term 'pada garbham' - KSJayashankar sir's explanation seems well thought out. 'Pada/Padam' could refer to the pallavi as a passage/verse, and the word 'garbham' to signify the transitionary state from the poorvangam to uttarangam. Further speculating, I am somewhat reminded of the term 'pregnant pause' - the arudhi is but a pause!

As for the arudi-arudi cycle, I definitely agree that it is simpler for a listener to find the thaalam of the pallavi by following it arudi to arudi rather than samam to samam. This is made easier by the fact that most pallavis have arudis which occur at the end of a familiar -'tatom-tatom-taam' (3+3+3) pattern, making it easier to anticipate. However, I'd also add that for pallavis with more than 1 avarthana, and for nadai pallavis, this might still be a rigorous exercise. E.g. if you take Semmangudi's 2 kalai adhi tala pallavi in shankarabharanam (sometimes also sung in one kalai) 'chakkagAni bhajana jEsE vAriki takkuvamulu galadA srI rAmA dina dinamu', it would be hard to understand from a recording if it is a 4 kalai pallavi, a 2 kalai pallavi, or 1 kalai without hearing the swaras, or some loud claps of the thaalam. Incidentally, this pallavi is also a rettai pallavi, though debatably controversial as the first arudi (the syllable 'na' of 'bhajana') does not occur at the samam of the dhrutham in some (most?) of his recordings, while it does in others. However, it has been classified as 'rettai pallavi' by several artists.

KSJaishankar · Post by **KSJaishankar** » 09 Sep 2015, 03:29

Classical91 - in most of the recordings I've heard, Chakkagani seems to have only 1 arudi, on the first Dhrutam of the 2nd avarta, on the syllable Shri. The Na of Bhajana seems to fall as an arudi on the first Dhrutam of the first avarta only when singing swarams for effect, as the full Pallavi is too long to sing each time.

ARI's 4 raga Pallavi in 2 avartas of 2 kalai Adi - Shankarabharananai Azhaitthodi Vadi Kalyani Darbarukku - has 2 clear arudis: Nai of Shankarabharananai on the first Dhrutam of the first avarta and Ni of Kalyani on the first Dhrutam of the second avarta.

KSJaishankar · Post by **KSJaishankar** » 09 Sep 2015, 03:31

Btw - Is Chakkagani an SSI composed Pallavi? I think I've heard the same Pallavi by ARI also; not sure if he picked it up from SSI. Among current singers, have heard Sanjay and TMK sing it.

classical91 · Post by **classical91** » 09 Sep 2015, 03:57

The chatur ragamalika pallavi (either composed by Pallavi Seshayyar or Kunnakkudi Krishnayyer, most probably the former, popularised by the Ariyakudi school), yes definitely. rettai pallavi. The shankarabharanam one, as I said, a bit debatable. It is even mentioned in Pantula Rama's book that this pallavi is a rettai pallavi, and I have one recording of SSI where the Na of Bhajana is sung throughout as an arudi. I have heard more recent artists sing this pallavi with 2 clear arudis (Sanjay, if I remember right).

I would be inclined to think that the pallavi was merely popularised by SSI. It sounds more like a line from a pallavi, as were most of the pallavis of yesteryears. Unfortunately, most of the original songs of these are lost - possibility that might have been one of those cases. I would not be surprised if you've heard an ARI recording of the same (although I've commonly heard mahima theliya and a 4 kalai pallavi of which I can't recall the words).

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 09 Sep 2015, 13:23

Made me want to hear tanam in Darbari Kaanada on the Veena

Could not get you that . but some close relatives ideal for this season

http://www.mediafire.com/watch/947ttkch ... S_01_1.flv

http://www.mediafire.com/watch/ynhommbu ... S_01_2.flv

Scenes from a small town in coastal north karnataka. Reminds me of some of the concerts I attended as a child.Folks travelling to Sirsi / Honnavar / Murudeswar ... should make time to visit this artist , a gracious host.

I was dumbfounded during my visit a couple of years ago . The artist dropping in from her farm in long gum boots ( precaution against snake bites ) , and picking her veena to play for a bunch of us .Also explaining how yoga practice is a must to master this instrument .
Jyothi Hegde . She must be having a website . And she does visit Bangalore often .
Hope you like it

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 10 Sep 2015, 14:24

vasanthakokilam wrote:especially with Nick's spelling Thonum he occasionally uses

Never attend to my spelling, even in my native language, in which I am not only fluent but educated. Not only are there words I have mis-spelled since childhood but there is now some unknown mechanism between my brain and my fingers that substitutes all sorts of rubbish for what I am actually thinking. So... in languages in which I am not only not fluent, but ignorant? I often just hope that I people know what I mean.

These are the topics where our forum shines,

Indeed, this thread is wonderful example of rasikas.org as a true resource.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 10 Sep 2015, 16:45

KVC Sir,
As many specific technical aspects of RTP have been already posted already, I am posting technical aspects, in general, in answering to your questions.
Q.1. As I understand, RTP is for giving an exhaustive treatment to a raga and giving free expression to the manodharma of the artist. If that understanding is correct, how does truncating it serve the purpose?
Q.2. or, how is creativity stifled in a format that is born to encourage creativity?
A. Indian Classical Music celebrates ‘Raga’, the ultimate in imagination and creativity. The goal of Ragam-Tanam-Pallavi is truly creatively establishing the raga, aided and unaided aspects. Aided aspects are layam and kalapramanam explicitly and Svara, implicitly. Svara in taking the form of Sabda in akshara(s)-‘Anandam, Anantam’; Pallavi line, sahithya bhavam explicitly, laya implicitly; Svara kalpana, svara sthanams in unity with tala in permutations and combinations. Unaided aspect is Svara, its permutations and combinations within the assigned scale establishing the raga rasa bhavam. Two unique qualities in Indian Classical Music are –Kalpana, improvisational and Kalpita, premeditated but based on original kalpana. Ragam is given the pradhama and pradhana states- first and most important states in RTP. Pradhama and Pradhana states is for affording maximum opportunity for imagination and creativity with controlled lakshana but with freedom of lakshya. Panditya is to be established with minimal kalpita gnanam(unavoidable)and maximum kalpana gnanam(essential).
Prachina sadas gayana, at the end of prabhanda gayana was based only on RTP, with two or three compositions being sung, lasting 4 to 5 hours. Artists had the luxury of time for expansion at leisure the kalpana. When sabha gayana replaced the sadas gayana, the time for RTP was restricted to a maximum of 90 minutes. RTP came to be handled with Pradhana raga and ragamalika ragas to satisfy the changed expectations and demands of patrons and rasikas. Great maestros could give the rasika glimpses of the immense potentiality of prachina sampradaya in their treatment with curtailed time of 60/90 minutes. With the advent of AIR and also restricted time availability of patrons and rasikas for entertainment, the concert duration and time has suffered. Artists are given 15-30 minutes, rarely 60-90 minutes time for RTP. With this restriction, artists are compelled to rely on kalpita with glimpses of kalpana Vidwath. This practice over few decades has resulted in affecting the sadhana, performance and listening experience of Classical music, with RTP no exception. When opportunity to perform only RTP in a thematic performance, the artists are found wanting. Thus truncating does no good but harm. To restore the glory, solution is in commitment and dedication of artists, patrons, event managers and most importantly the rasikas to invest the resources of time and money.
Q.3. If a raga has limited scope, so be it. Why can’t there be RTP for a reduced duration within the available scope of that raga? Why should not such downtrodden ragas be given a fair treatment?
A. 3.1. In the present times, RTP of very short duration with both prasidha and aprasidha ragas are being handled by all the artists in their performances. It is being well served. 3.2. There are no ‘downtrodden ragas’ Sir. On the contrary, the prasidha ragas are not getting the fair treatment.
Q.4. Is there an equivalent of RTP in HM?
A. To my knowledge, Khyal of Hindustani Music is its equivalent of RTP of Karnataka Sangeetham. In majority of the Jugalbandi concerts, chota khyal and RTP(also ‘chota’) are being handled by Ustads/Pandits/Vidwans/Vidushees owing to this factor.

munirao2001

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 12 Sep 2015, 20:18

Sanjay does RTP in patdeep 1hr57min to 2hr43' (about).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_h1ZUiUBT9Q
Is it possible to analyse it and say how it is inappropriate? I do not know anything more than that I found it melodious.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 12 Sep 2015, 21:12

RTP - Hamsavinodhini

Balamurali Krishna, Lalgudi and Sivaraman weave some magic. Bombay 1963. Can any one let me know talam and eduppu please?

bombal · Post by **bombal** » 12 Sep 2015, 21:37

Chathusra jAti Triputa tAlam (sadA is from the first beat nigamasudha is after 3 beats)...great rendition with super duper accompaniments.

DhanyavAdaha

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 13 Sep 2015, 01:40

RTP - Shankarabaranam - Only Pallavi part

Sanjay, Nagai Muralidhran and Dorai mama - somewhere in Kerala, very recently I'd think. A practicsed team effort, Dorai mama is just awesome.

So again, what thalam please? I can see it, but I can't name it

Many thanks to Prakashrao Narayanan who keeps uploading gems !

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 Sep 2015, 08:59

Misra jAti Triputa ( 7 count laghu + drutham + drutham )

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 13 Sep 2015, 09:09

Is it possible to analyse it and say how it is inappropriate?

Oh Yes . But my inappropriateness could be your appropriateness

I do not know anything more than that I found it melodious.

https://www.mediafire.com/folder/kvxvl5 ... ng_Patdeep
Here are a few tools in this folder .
As one rasika to another , I say the following .
1.Listening pleasure in CM is about seeing the same thing again and again in different perspectives . It is a pleasure borne out of revisiting old spots.
2.This answers a majority of our expectations in concerts . For proof , try and spot grey haired men struggling with Kannans hand book, looking for krithis that the artist has started with the anupallavi

3.However , every now and then, comes someone who raises this bar and does a new thing . SK - TNS ....
Or some one like Voleti or RKS who prove that all the while they had been singing the same thing and it is only we have moved forward .

And this could be slippery , like in the case of Patdeep .
One of the lecturers in this bunch makes a strong case for Patdeep not being amenable for major expositions because of the nature of establishing it . Stress on one note in myriad ways .( Lets remember in HM teachers teach students with phrases like , To SAVE ( bachana ) the raga from another , to give a PUSH to a note ( Dhakka Dena ) , to LATCH on to ( pakadna)

I found it like a young boy on a 300 cc bike stuttering through a narrow choolaimedu street in peak hour , barely maintaining balance. While an old guy moves gracefully on his tvs 50 at 10 kmph. Meeting the same biker at each successive signal .
I must admit that I am not vitriolic in my sentiments and have no opinions that I want others to take as benchmarks.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 13 Sep 2015, 10:01

Thanks. I do see that you have a fine musical point expressed in that pleasing style of imagery that takes one on a dreamy tour of landscape of partly known territory. But, to get to it intrinsically, my grounding in music is awfully inadequate (absent rather). Still, I love to read what you write in the same way I would read Sankara, just appreciating his faultless logic, pithiness of expression and scriptural authority, but not quite at home.
By the way, is choolaimedu road the one parallel to the railway line on the other side of Loyola College (where I studied)? I lived there in the sixties (Sankarapuram).

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 13 Sep 2015, 10:12

choolaimedu road the one parallel to the railway line on the other side of Loyola College

Yes. I live nearby.Please do try some of the tracks in the folder. You will love them

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 13 Sep 2015, 15:09

Listening to the first one. Nice. Is pakad of HM the same as moorchana in CM?

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 13 Sep 2015, 15:48

kvc
thanks for the nice words . I have added a track on pakad
Also added a track that relates to
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic ... ag#p264250

on a day when the strains of patdeep pakaded me

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 13 Sep 2015, 16:26

Thanks.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 30 Sep 2015, 14:53

I read that TMK (who was critical of Tanam in Patdeep) sang Tanam in Kuntalavarali. Is Kuntalavarali fit for Tanam?

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 30 Sep 2015, 18:50

Try, try, fail, fail again, do it like an amateur, get criticized, improve further, do it like a master then tell the world your discovery.

Or find an example of someone who has. Any samples of kunthalavarali tanam?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 30 Sep 2015, 19:52

I read in review:
kunthalavarai: Tanam followed by Thamasamma

I have not heard.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 01 Oct 2015, 19:07

I found an old gem, anyone wants to hear a RTP in Lathangi and Lalitha? Obtained from, who else, the ever generoud Coolji years ago! Ohh and guess the artist?

"Lalthe lalithe sulalithe subha charithe, namasthe lathange"

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 01 Oct 2015, 20:52

TNS has rendered RTP in Lalitha and Lathangi in Bharat Kalachar concert. Looks like the same pallavi. Am I guessing right?

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 01 Oct 2015, 20:58

Yup. I have no other details about this concert [accompaniment / venue / year etc]. The tracks are Maha Ganapathin [Natai], Vallabha [Begada], Pahijagadh [Hamsanandhi], Mathada [Devaghandari], Antaranga Bhakthi [Shatvdhamargini].

Is this the same Bharath Kalachar concert?

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 02 Oct 2015, 10:45

Mahesh, same concert. My list says Begada song is Amba Alankari of Muthiah Bhagavatar- Not Vallabha nayagasya.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 02 Oct 2015, 18:04

Ohh OK, I haven't listened to yet fully, I will correct, thank you Sir.

By the way, do you have the Kalyani Pallavi I have requested in the Vidwan Vidishi's thread on TNS? Please? Pretty please?

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 02 Oct 2015, 19:02

That pallavi he rendered in a lecdem in Mudhra five years ago. I donot know if he has ever sung in any concert. I do not have it. I am also searching for it.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 02 Oct 2015, 19:15

CRama wrote:That pallavi he rendered in a lecdem in Mudhra five years ago. I donot know if he has ever sung in any concert. I do not have it. I am also searching for it.

Ohh OK. Thanks, if you find it let me know or if I find it first will inform you!