Manjul Bharghava (Fields medal winner) to preside over MMA's Sadas this year

[mahavishnu]

Young mathematician and Fields medal winner Manjul Bhargava (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manjul_Bhargava) will preside over this year's Sadas at the Madras Music Academy.

I just noticed this as I was browsing through their schedule: http://www.musicacademymadras.in/fotemp ... 304891133e

At 41, I imagine he is one of the youngest to have presided over the Sadas!

[arasi]

Thanks Ramesh for the news.

Interesting. Another mathematician/scientist from the west with interest in music (after nobel laureate Venkatraman) in recent years.

The invitation has his name right. Wonder how the new SK's name is going to look on the scroll.
Subramanian is how I see it on the invite

Found another typo: tabala??

[mahavishnu]

Will you be in Chennai for the season, Arasi? (If only just to proof the Academy's proceedings)

[arasi]

If all goes well, yes. A short season it will be, I'm afraid. Will you be there?

If season comes, canteens can't be far behind. They are the ones which bring back old favorites like tavalai vaDai. Don't mind if they spell it wrong on the blackboard--so long as they taste good See, 'tabala' brought them back to me

[HarishankarK]

I would think that Tabala is the correct spelling. In hindi it spells as तबला . Which is a full Ba and not a 'ibb' which would mean a half ba. So it is correct even if we see it spelt as Tabla everywhere else.

[kvchellappa]

It is Hindi, not Samskritham. Secong ba is truncated by Hindiwalas. e.g. in ladaka or ladaki.

[kvchellappa]

I heard Manju Bhargava give a talk on mathematics, poetry and tabla. It was interesting.

[arasi]

HarishankarK,
Yes, but as Chellappa says, we are used to the hindi version (popular usage?). I somehow felt that it was printed the way 'tabEla' is also used in written tamizh--and how many will take notice anyway?

Yet, remember the way we discussed 'mOrsing'?

[Nick H]

I have regularly seen "tabala" as the transcription of the instrument's name, in this part of the world. the west calls it "tabla." I don't have any basis to assert right or wrong, only that the spelling is actually common.

Consider how many spellings, in western transcription, there are of "mridangam!"

[priyaram78]

Tabla is how it is pronounced in Hindi. I was initially surprised to read tabela which means a stable or cowshed.

[arasi]

albElAnE sIkhA tablA ek tabElE me
bhalE, bhalE, bOlE gaiyyA--ZAkir
bajAyE lOk bhar ganEvAlOnkO--
madrAs mE bhI, sAgar kinArE

kOyi kahE tabElA, kOyi kahE tabalA
nA E kuch bAt hai jab tAn huyE mastAn...

[rshankar]

tabala is an incorrect way to pronounce the name of the instrument in hindi - it is pronounced as tablA, (and like Priyaram says, tabEla is probably the right way to pronounce it) and the reason why the one who plays it is called a tabElci.

[arasi]

Nick, Add one more to the list: moraDangam ('beat the hell out of it!' sounding one)'.. .

Now, don't start me off on Srinivasan, Shrinivasan Sreenivasan and Shreenivasan. Swamy, Samy, Swami and Samy and a cartload of other names

Ravi,
Priya says tabela is a cattle shed.

[mahavishnu]

If all goes well, yes. A short season it will be, I'm afraid. Will you be there?

Yes, Moi aussi. Short season, only the early part of it.
Look forward to seeing you and the various Chennai rasikas.

[KNV1955]

MA should invite Vilayanur Ramachandran neuroscientist. He has done some research on music & brain. He is also a great fan of Semmangudi Srinivasa Iyer

KNV

[kvchellappa]

His books are wonderful.

[KNV1955]

His Ted Talks are superb. He is the grandson of Alladi Krishnaswamy Iyer

[sureshvv]

May be Manjul can identify more precisely the branch of mathematics employed by Carnatic music. "Arithmetic" seems woefully inadequate.

[kvchellappa]

You mean the kanakku that they employ?

[rshankar]

Arasi: thank you for pointing it out - blame it on jet lag. What I meant to say was that like Priyaram says, tabEla is also not how it's to be pronounced, despite the fact that a tabla player is called a tabElci!

[sureshvv]

You mean the kanakku that they employ?

Yep. Some call it "vyavahaaram" too.

[kvchellappa]

antha vyavaharam enakku adiyoda theiryAthu. But, Bhargava explained the mathematics involved in the rhythm logically.

[Sivaramakrishnan]

Manjul Bhargava to 'Tabela'!
The thread is overstretched and snapped!

[Nick H]

MA should invite Vilayanur Ramachandran neuroscientist. He has done some research on music & brain. ... ... ...

In that case, they should invite our very own Mahavishnu: he has done a lot of research on music and the brain, and is still doing it

But seriously... if it is science and music anybody wants, he would be a great choice.

[KNV1955]

Nick: Why not? Infact even VKV Sir & Cleveland Sundaram & even Ram Narayan of Sruti can talk beautifully about Carnatic Music & organisation & Administration. Instead of calling Judges & Politicians & people speaking empty stuff in flowery language, I would any day prefer such knowledgeable rasikas to inaugurate such functions. But such things would never happen in Music Academy or any Sabhas in Chennai whomsover be the head.

KNV

[cacm]

Dear KNV,
THANKS for mentioning my name along with the luminaries.......I will probably spend 75 percent of the time talking about the PHYSICS EXPTS I HAVE DONE W/ARI& KVN & THE REST OF THE TIME ON PMI'S MUSIC! VKV

[Nick H]

Indeed, and why not!*

Nick: Why not? Infact even VKV Sir & Cleveland Sundaram & even Ram Narayan of Sruti can talk beautifully about Carnatic Music & organisation & Administration. Instead of calling Judges & Politicians & people speaking empty stuff in flowery language, I would any day prefer such knowledgeable rasikas to inaugurate such functions. But such things would never happen in Music Academy or any Sabhas in Chennai whomsover be the head.

KNV

To be fair, Cleveland Sundaram is a regular speaker, and, at many of the functions that I attend (usually, but not always, for the concert that follows), speakers are drawn from musician/sabha/rasika community as well as figurehead VIPs.

When I first saw this thread, I did think, "Who cares?!" I don't really know that the eminence or fame of the "presidor" is relevant to anything. I say that meaning no disrespect at all to the individual in this case, an eminent man indeed. But then I reflected that I have heard excellent speeches from non-music speakers and, perhaps, not so excellent from the musically knowledgeable.

Anyway, and again, I stress, with no disrespect to the givers or to the receivers of the awards on that day, part of the Music Academy's purpose in life is to maintain and further its aura of importance. If it lets that slip, we might start not caring about who gets its awards!



*And moving on from the ceremonial, arising from this thread are two good lecdem suggestions for the MA: Carnatic Music and The Brain, and Carnatic Music and Physics. And we have multiple people lined up for those

[vasanthakokilam]

part of the Music Academy's purpose in life is to maintain and further its aura of importance. If it lets that slip, we might start not caring about who gets its awards!

Quite true. No possibility of slippage in the case of Manjul Bharghava. In addition to his own achievements, certain set of Indians ( which intersects considerably with the set of classical music fans ) put Mathematics at a very high pedestal. That is a huge tradition going back many centuries. So i am sure a person like Manjul will help maintain and enhance MA's stature. ( example Manjul lecture to kids https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siFBqH-LaQQ ).. Of course my definite and loud Yes for VKV and Mahavishnu. That will be fascinating.

'Aesthetics of Mathematics' is a good topic for lecture demos, with particular reference to carnatic music.

Interesting coincidence that just yesterday I was reminded of a thread where Srinath posted his calculation on how many different sollu combinations exist in a certain number of sub-beats. This is the type of stuff Manjul talks to kids about in the above video. That is, for chathrasram, with 4 sub-beats, Srinath's calculations were to determine the number of combinations like 1-1-1-1, 1-3, 1-2-1, 1-1-2, 4 etc. I am sure if Srinath sees this thread he will fill in what I am talking about and link to his post.

Yesterday, I dooddled around overlaying melody on top of that. That is, for the simplest case of 1-1-1-1 ( tha ka dhi mi ), there are three possibilities for transitions from one sub beat to the next: Stay there, Move up, Move down. ( R-R, R-G, R-M, R-S, R-N etc. ) The swara to which you can move up or down can be theoretically any of the allowed scale degrees but we can assume in Carnatic music, you do not jump more than 4-5 notes typically ( there are exceptions of course). So that gives you the number of different swaras to which you can jump up or down to. But then if you are at the top edge, you can not jump up ( assuming the typical range is 2+ octaves, say lower Ga to High Pa ) and if you are the lower edge, you can not go down. This is for one transition. In the above simplest case of Chaturashram, you have two more transition to go and you just did one small part of filling up a beat. I did not come up with a number but the sheer number of possibilities of rhythm and melody together even to fill up one beat is astounding.

When Suresh mentions that 'arithmetic' does not cut it, it is, I think, in this context of combinatorial mathematics and a few other branches of mathematics. 'Recurrence' is a favorite topic of Manjul and that is in the mix as well. In addition, in Carnatic Music ( and most probably HM ) the concept of Rhthym can be termed additive. That is, the sub-beats cross over beats. So, charashra Eka in Chathrashra Nadai is 4-4-4-4 but in practice, you can combine it into 6-2-6-2 or 3-3-3-4-3 etc. That just explodes the number of combinations even further. May be this is the kind of combinatorial complexity is popularly referred to as 'Vyavaharam'. Akellaji has researched all this and written books on it.

Among these combinations, only a subset is aesthetically pleasing in a particular cultural context. For example, if the jumps are too big, it feels like western music for a carnatic music listener. But that is a matter of degree. S-M is a great jump for many popular ragas like Khamas, Kuntalavarali etc. That in itself is a fascinating topic for a lec dem along the lines of 'Aesthetics of Mathematics'.

[Nick H]

That is, the sub-beats cross over beats. So, charashra Eka in Chathrashra Nadai is 4-4-4-4 but in practice, you can combine it into 6-2-6-2 or 3-3-3-4-3 etc.

I think that is syncopation, isn't it? Stuff where the stresses don't come on the beats.

[vasanthakokilam]

My definition of Syncopation is 'It is that separates the real beat keepers from pretenders'

By the 'official/wikipedia' definition of Syncopation,

"In music, syncopation involves a variety of rhythms which are in some way unexpected which make part or all of a tune or piece of music off-beat."

Korvai is Syncopation, Syncopation, Syncopation all the way and it is all additive rhythm by my definition above. So, yes.

But not all additive rhythms need to sound syncopated. 6 + 6 + 4 for example is additive rhythm alright but can sound perfectly on the beat if the 6 sub-beat boundary happens to be a minor stress which is the case in a lot of CM songs. But you can make it sound syncopated if you provide a heavy stress at the 6 beat boundary.

But to outsiders even stuff we would normally not even take notice as syncopated sounds syncopated to them. And for good reasons. Like for example, the numerous songs of Thyagaraja that starts between the 2nd and 3rd beat ( desadi, 3/4 eduppu ) sound syncopated to them. It is not the eduppu that throws them off. Of course not. The first major stress, falls in between beats. Like in 'Manavyala', the 'ya' has a natural stress but the beat is on 'la'. That can throw them off. Again by my unofficial definition, it is syncopation and by the official definition, it is a mild syncopation.
Rest of the beats do not sound syncopated. In the above example, it lands with a thud on the fifth beat resolving any kind of syncopation that had existed just moments before. That is a unique Tyagaraja rhythmic signature.

There was another occasion recently where I was not sure what sounded syncopated to outsiders. This was a bharathanatyam arangetram with CM songs as usual. After a few songs, the high school principal was invited to say a few things. He is a Jazz musician ( and a very comfortable public speaker as well ). He stepped on to the mic and cheer-led the live band 'Let us give a hand to the band.. Incredible syncopated music.. we are lucky to be listening to them live..' etc. There was no thani etc so no Korvai. There were a few theermanams they played in the normal course of songs which are again additive rhythm which are syncopated like a korvai. And the other definite possibility is the syncopated rhythm that is part of the dance choreography. He had to leave after his speech, so I did not get a chance to talk to him.

[Nick H]

Funnily enough, I was going to say, when tala-putting gets difficult, that's syncopation. And mention that, of course, korvais are all about syncopation.

That rhythm which goes Thanatha Dhinatha Dhina is certainly off-beat, but possibly to regular to merit the big S word. And too familiar, even in western light music. Watch the small children in mridangam class, though, the first time they try to put talam to it!

I guess we should get back to institutions and award givers!

[vidya raja]

Just sharing transcript of his interview with NDTV in january this year . He speaks about fibonacci series in Tabla Beats

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/india-qu ... ipt-730559

[rajeshnat]

Apart from Fields Medal Manjul Bhargava has also been awarded Padma bhushan in this year . MA invites eminently successful people across all fields and I assume for many Padma bhushan award has more weight than Fields Medal.

[rajeshnat]

Of course my definite and loud Yes for VKV and Mahavishnu. That will be fascinating.

Well Shri VKV can be immediately invited - we will give few decades time for Mahavishnu to get some coveted prize. He will be surely there to give a coveted award to Abhishek Raghuram.