What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 23 Oct 2015, 19:30

srini_pichumani,
'muthudirndARpOl'...rare and precious are your posts, we long time Rasikas.org members know only too well...

Jayalakshmi Santhanam was lucky to learn from HMB himself a few songs. I didn't know about her learning from NNB as well!

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 23 Oct 2015, 20:09

ramakriya wrote:The Mysore disease? Harimau, you could have come with a better word for sure!

The Mysore affliction? The Karnataka penchant?

Take your choice.

I can refer you to Roget's Thesaurus for words you may consider more appropriate.

But seriously, the Mysore Durbar did patronise a large number of musicians who did introduce a lot of Hindusthani ragas into CM. In fact, the version of Yamunakalyani (Krishna Nee Begane Baro is neither pure Hindusthani nor the version you hear in Jambupathe. So you do get a rendum kettan (the idiomatic English expression may be neither fish, nor fowl, nor good red herring) version of the raga!

PS. But I do like that version of the raga too!

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 23 Oct 2015, 20:46

What is known is that the tuning of purandaradasar, annamayya etc krithis. What is probably lesser known is about 80 % of Thyagayyar krithis have been retuned ro the ragas that show its presence in sangraha chudamani. This is definitely a bitter fact and I very well expect a strong opposition from the forumites. A studyof older manuscripts, especially those of Valajapet disciples will prove this. A careful study also reveals that the schools does not differ between Thyagayyar and Dikshithar. I am not the first one to say this and definitely not the last one too.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 23 Oct 2015, 21:09

bhakthim dehi wrote:What is known is that the tuning of purandaradasar, annamayya etc krithis. What is probably lesser known is about 80 % of Thyagayyar krithis have been retuned ro the ragas that show its presence in sangraha chudamani. This is definitely a bitter fact and I very well expect a strong opposition from the forumites. A studyof older manuscripts, especially those of Valajapet disciples will prove this. A careful study also reveals that the schools does not differ between Thyagayyar and Dikshithar. I am not the first one to say this and definitely not the last one too.

Well, the Wallajapettai school has been historically looked down upon by the dominant Umayalpuram sishya parampara. The manuscripts of the Wallajapettai school differ from the Umayalpuram school in terms of raga names, etc., and is considered to be ridden with errors. The Thillaisthanam school has no known disciples left. -- at least, nobody who is performing in public. And the Thillaisthanam school is also not supposed to have been taught all the compositions of Thyagaraja, specialising in certain ragas and krithis totalling about 160 only.

As to differences between Deekshithar and Thyagaraja, it is accepted that Deekshithar composed using the asampoorna mela paddhathi whereas Thyagaraja composed using the sampoorna mela paddhathi. As such, theoretically they should differ from each other.

My two cents.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 23 Oct 2015, 21:14

arasi wrote:Ramakriya,
Though Harimau is up to date with many things, he has not seen (let alone heard) vol: 5 of my compositions sung by Gayathri Girish. She sings a paTdip song in that

Paattu Deepamaai Olirudhe!

Never assume anything about Harimau who has a wide net of informants.

Is the name of the raga Patdeep or Paatdeep?

Your song goes with the latter.

If it's the former, I think I have the Pallavi ready: Pattu Deepatthil Patri Eriyuthe. It will then be a song about a woman whose sari catches fire and thus will satisfy those musicians who are tired of singing songs in praise of gods. This will have the additional merit of addressing the contemporary evil of bride burning!

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 23 Oct 2015, 21:20

arasi wrote: CRama,
What do you think? If paTdIp is as alien as Harimau makes it out to be, how did behAg, bhAgESri (oh dear!), jOnpuri and Sindhubhairavi somehow get in--while he was on guard duty?

Ha, you forgot Todi (described as a Desiya raga) and Kalyani (described as music of the Turks and not fit for CM). It took the genius of Thyagaraja, Deekshithar and Syama Sastri to dress them up in 9-yard Kanchipuram silks and make them presentable south of the Vindhyas.

Jonpuri seems to have caught on in the 1940s with everybody and his brother trying to sing a tukkada in that raga!

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 23 Oct 2015, 21:41

@harimau : Well said regarding Valajapet disciples. They are overshadowed by Umayalpuram disciples.
@harimau: Your view is totally wrong regarding asampoorana and sampoorna paddhathi. Thyagayyar has composed in both navaneetham and nabhomani, vasanthabhairavi and vakulabharanam. I hope you got my point. He just preferred sampoorna scheme.
But, I didn't mean the melakartha scheme when I said their systems are similar. I was referring to the raga lakshanam. One simple example is balahamsa. Valajapet version of balahamsa (thyaggayar krithi in that raga) is very much similar to that of dikshithars guruguhaadanyam!!

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 24 Oct 2015, 02:36

srini_pichumani wrote:Harimau gAru,

just a comment -- Rallapalle Anantakrishna Sarma gAru is primus inter pares when it comes to tuning Annamacharya compositions, in many ways ahead of the Pani school musicians, Balamurali etc.

The classic "brahma kaDigina pAdamu" (navanItam in Garimella Balakrishna Prasad's voice), "alarulu guriyaga" in Shankarabharanam, "sahaja vaiSNavAcAra" in sAmanta are all his varNameTTus, if I am not mistaken. Not sure if the dEs'ya sULAdi "anagatarE" is also his. When Prof.SRJ was here in the early 90s, he gave a couple of lec-dems on the subject and remarked on the yeoman service rendered first and foremost by Rallapalle gAru to Annamacharya's compositions !

-Srini.

ps: You mention mukhAri wrt "nAnATi bratuku nATakamu" -- I heard Balamurali gAru's version in Mukhari a long while ago... it is very beautiful and has a very rustic/folksy/dry but not dreary ring to it... you could almost imagine a jangama singing it with a ektAra walking through Ralla Seema.

I am sorry I didn't mention the yeoman service rendered by Rallepalli Ananthakrishna Sarma Garu in tuning Annamacharya compositions.

As to Alarulu guriyaga, I remember an incident during the release of a DVD on Dr Sripada Pinaapani Garu. The DVD by SwathiSoft said that this composition was tuned by Dr Pinakapani. Nedunuri Krishnamurthy Garu called the folks from SwathiSoft aside and said that it was his tune not his guru's and wanted the DVD corrected.

The way I hear it, Dr Pinakapani, after setting the tune, handed the notation over to Sri Nedunuri who, through his improvisations may have added several sangathis to it and thus felt it was rightfully his tune.

The tunesmithing by Dr Pinakapani, Sri Nedunuri, Sri Voleti, Sri Nookala Chinnasathyanarayaa, and by Dr Balamuralikrishna were undertaken after they were commissioned by the TTD who were most likely motivated to popularise Annamacharya's compositions. The earlier attempts in the late 1930s may well have been an academic exercise that didn't attract much attention.

There is no denying that it was the Balaji Pancharatnamala LPs that popuarised these compositions outside Andhra. Smt MS requested for notations from Dr Pinakapani and did sing Deva Devam Bhaje (incidentally, without the chitaswaram composed by Dr Pinakapani for that) and Vandeham Jagath Vallabham in those LPs. Equally, she got the Revathi version of Naanaati Bhrathuku from Sri Nedunuri whom she was supposed to have complimented by saying that such a tune by itself makes him deserving of the Sangeetha Kalanidhi, which he received later.

And yes, it was Sri SRJ who mentioned to me that the raga for that composition was indicated as Mukhari, and after singing a bit of it, asked if it wasn't a good match for the meaning of the song.

thanjavooran · Post by **thanjavooran** » 24 Oct 2015, 05:38

Shri harimau

Thanx for sharing such valuable information.
Thanjavooran
24 10 2015

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 24 Oct 2015, 06:26

Sorry for digressing, but Harimau with his antennae has found my song (which by the way is a song about an evening of worship, by humans and other creatures). A tranquil scene I had imagined.

Harimau,
However, your idea is apt for a poem. So, here it goes...

விளக்கிடவே ஒரு கவிதை
......................................

பட்டு தீபத்தில் பட்டெரிந்ததே--
பாட்டு நட்ட‌ நடுவில் நின்றதே

விளக்கெரிந்ததே அருகிலே--
தளுக்காய்த் தலைப்பு வீசியதில்--
பட்டு தீபத்தில் பட்டெரிந்ததே!

பாடியதோ தோடி, பட்டு தீபத்தில்
ஆடி அசைந்து பற்றிக் கொள்ள--
ஆர்ட்டு வர்க்குக்காக வாங்கியது
பார்ட்டு பார்ட்டாய்ப் போனதே

paTTu dIpathil paTTerindadE--
pATTu naTTa naDuvil ninRadE

viLakkerindadE arugilE--
thaLukkAi thalaippu vIsiyadil--
paTTu dIpathil paTTerindadE!

pADiyadO tODi, paTTu dIpathil
ADi asaindu paTRik koLLa--
ArTu varkkukkAga vAngiyadu
pArTu pArtAip pOnadE

No, not suitable for a song, nor is that graver atrocity you mention

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 25 Oct 2015, 19:15

arasi wrote:Sorry for digressing, but Harimau with his antennae has found my song (which by the way is a song about an evening of worship, by humans and other creatures). A tranquil scene I had imagined.

Harimau,
However, your idea is apt for a poem. So, here it goes...

விளக்கிடவே ஒரு கவிதை
......................................

பட்டு தீபத்தில் பட்டெரிந்ததே--
பாட்டு நட்ட‌ நடுவில் நின்றதே

விளக்கெரிந்ததே அருகிலே--
தளுக்காய்த் தலைப்பு வீசியதில்--
பட்டு தீபத்தில் பட்டெரிந்ததே!

பாடியதோ தோடி, பட்டு தீபத்தில்
ஆடி அசைந்து பற்றிக் கொள்ள--
ஆர்ட்டு வர்க்குக்காக வாங்கியது
பார்ட்டு பார்ட்டாய்ப் போனதே

paTTu dIpathil paTTerindadE--
pATTu naTTa naDuvil ninRadE

viLakkerindadE arugilE--
thaLukkAi thalaippu vIsiyadil--
paTTu dIpathil paTTerindadE!

pADiyadO tODi, paTTu dIpathil
ADi asaindu paTRik koLLa--
ArTu varkkukkAga vAngiyadu
pArTu pArtAip pOnadE

No, not suitable for a song, nor is that graver atrocity you mention

You are following in the footsteps of Sekkizhar and Muthuthandavar.

It is said that Sekkizhar had a major writer's block when he wanted to compose Periya Puranam. He prayed to Lord Siva at Kovur and heard the word Ulagelaam. He then composed the invocatory poem starting with that word and after which he could complete his magnum opus.

http://jeevagv.blogspot.in/2008/04/blog ... 7.html?m=1

Similarly, when Muthuthandavar was instructed to sing the praises of Lord Siva, he too wondered how he could compose songs. He was told to start his song with the first word he would hear upon entering the temple at Chidambaram. He did and after that he turned out to be a prolific composer.

You may not be aware of these legends as they are not part of the Vaishnavite lore. Muthuthandavar probably entered through the east entrance perhaps and thus didn't get to see the naamadharis singing the praise of Govindaraja Perumal. Otherwise his songs would have been in praise of Vishnu.

Anyway, what I mean to say is that the unseen hand of God guides poets. And you seem to follow their tradition!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 25 Oct 2015, 20:37

'அரி' உரைத்து அறிந்துகொண்டேன், அதனுடன் அறியா ஓர் ப்ளாகையுமே! நன்றி...
'ari' uraithu aRindu koNDEn, adanuDan aRiyA Or blog-aiyumE. nanRi

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 26 Oct 2015, 08:17

The latest to add to re tuning- Swati Tirunal's Paripahimam nrihare which is a song in Mohanam sung in Dharmavathy by TVG in Navarathri Mandapam. The concert is available in Sangeethapriya.

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 26 Oct 2015, 19:39

Harimau and Srini Pichumani,

Sangeeta Kalanidhi Rallapalli Anantakrishna Sarma published two volumes with a total of 108 [110?] compositions by the tALLapAka composers - Annamayya and his equally illustrious descendants. It is heartening to know that the Academy Journal published a translation of his introductory essay on Annammayya's compositions. It exemplifies his incisive erudition, wisdom, and humour. Equally precious are the rAgalakSaNa notes he appends, with brilliant insights on the genetic link between abhEri and Ahiri, through a common ancestral AbhIri; his exceptional notes on the trishruti rishabha in deshAkSi that still glimmers albeit vestigially in the homologous Bilahari and so on. Prof T.Shachi told me how he explained SalanganATa and mangalakaisika with illustrations, and taught her (unpublished) Annamayya sankirtanams in those rAgas, along with those in malahari, pADi and gundakriya (some of which Balamuralikrishan has sung per R.A.Sarma's notation).

Rallapalli garu was a repository of at least a thousand compositions, encompassing composers from the Trinity, Pallavi DorasAmayya, Kuppusamayya, Ksetrayya, down to the vAnamAmalai compositions and the exquisite mangalams of the Krishna brahmatantra Parakala yati in ragas like navaroj, saindhavi and an older mangalam in dvijAvanti.

It is fortunate that we have received at least some authentic lakSya interpretations of his understanding of raga-s like gauri, takka, gamakakriyA, manjI, mAdhavamanohari, from his children and disciples. Ditto for the sAranga, saindhavi, nAtakuranji [published] padams and the unpublished saveri padam of Ksetrayya.

I have found the tyAgarAja krtis from his repertoire to be models of excellent notations [in most part] that reflect a trans-scale understanding of raga-lakSaNa, and closely resemble authenticated walajapet and tillaistanam versions often.

He was the first [possibly the only] musician-scholar to undertake the task of critical edition of not just the text of songs, but also of their musical settings; and set right the Avarta asymmetry in songs like sogasuga mRdanga tAlamu, gauri girirAjakumAri and anupallavi of bhajare citta.

Rallapalli-gAru himself has bemoaned the retuning of the mAnji composition of tyAgarAja into 'nAgasvarAvali' in an early raga laksana discussion at the Academy. He must have heard the current version of abhimAnamu lEdemi, wehich is now sung in a reconstructed andhALi, with more of the g3. Rallapalli identifies his own version as karnAtaka kApi which is closer to the mAnji given in the saurASTra sabhA list.

So this changing of tunes business is pretty old.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 27 Oct 2015, 09:37

The unseen hand of God can also be seen in the "gastronomy astronomy" line of arasi's poem for the 10th anniversary. What was billed as some irrational juxtaposition of words ( except for their rhyming) lost their surreal character if you consider that our astronomical fate is linked to gastronomy - i.e. if you believe in global warming

. Surreal poem losing it's surrealism - surreal!!

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 27 Oct 2015, 09:54

@harimau Malkauns has replaced Hindolam in this song and the original Hindolam has been renamed Varamu. Listen to Papanasam Sivan's Thunai Purindharul and you will hear the original tune of Manasuloni.

TNS has tried his hand at immortalizing the rAga by tuning "sA gA varamu(m) aruLvAi" of Bharati

in Varamu - as he himself explained the motivation at a Chicago concert years back.

@Srinathk @harimau, So that was why Brinda Mukta sang Samaja Vara Gamana in what is now Varamu? And you do mean MS and MMI sang it with Chautshruti Dhaivatam, D2, right? Shuddha Dhaivatam is a D1.

TNS mentioned couple of Tid bits there: kancheepuram school sang in varamu. ARI sometimes sang in varamu and sometimes in current hindoLam.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 28 Oct 2015, 00:20

shankarank,

Sir, how surreal some real moments seem!
Then, just those strange moments turn back
To nitty gritty, daily reality--Harimau to blame
For the wizardry* and 'way out' ways of his

*His being a font of info is also acknowledged...

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 28 Oct 2015, 09:19

arasi wrote:'அரி' உரைத்து அறிந்துகொண்டேன், அதனுடன் அறியா ஓர் ப்ளாகையுமே! நன்றி...
'ari' uraithu aRindu koNDEn, adanuDan aRiyA Or blog-aiyumE. nanRi

I was just too lazy to try and type that poem Ulagelam in Tamil so went and looked for it on the web. I am sufficiently computer-illiterate that I couldn't cut and paste just the poem so gave the URL to the blog.

After that I googled and found your CD Paattu Deepamai Olirudhe is also available through a Google search, though a kindly soul had given me that CD to listen to some months after the CD release function.

Now I count Google among my informants.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 28 Oct 2015, 09:39

Join the club Wiz, but who cometh now?
Nicholas alas, frowning and fretting--
Google makes him, well ask him--but
For unlettered me, it is just grand...

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 29 Oct 2015, 11:21

Shankar Vaidyanathan Sir,

Refer to your post #17 on 'cerebral process'. Please excuse me for posting a reply, albeit delayed. Intellect is ' seeking and establishing objectivity for abstract art form of music, with reason and logic and also communication establishing mental strength or power of ideation, imagination, discursive and resultant creativity. Musical genius is very much intellectual and cerebral, edifice built on saadhana of Kalpita sangeetham, lakshya and lakshana and mental training, practice and skills, urge and desire, high potential for Kalpana. To establish the uniqueness and extraordinary qualities, divine nature is invoked. Mind engulfed in musical thinking, created habits, tendencies and knowledge, conducive environment and support creating the urge or desire to meet one's own or induced (by other) inspiration, determination and will results in composing or tuning. Ability to recall and using the experience, knowledge, past or imagination of its unique variants or rarely happening in the present unrelated to the past. This rare happening in the present unrelated to the past, is recognized as 'beyond' and musical genius. Thus, this process and action is very much a cerebral process and is intellectual only.

munirao2001

srini_pichumani · Post by **srini_pichumani** » 29 Oct 2015, 11:50

Arasi madam,

thank you for your kind words, but no, I am very much known to be garrulous ! Just check with L.Ramki ! It however does take me quite a while to get on this forum and hence I miss many a conversation. I do send emails to people sometimes much later on a topic when I finally catch up, including you, Prof.S.Pasupathy, ShankaranK, etc but they seem to have gone nowhere !!!

On Jayalakshmi Santhanam herself, I have only managed to hear her live once back in 1991 when she was visiting metro-Detroit. It was very much in DKP -style, with the stock accompanists of that area at that time, Jayashankar Balan on violin and C.P.Vishwanath (Sriram Parasuram's brother) on mridangam. I pestered her to sing at least one rare Dikshitar kriti and she obliged with "tyAgarAjam bhajarE" in Yadukulakambhoji.

-Srini.

srini_pichumani · Post by **srini_pichumani** » 29 Oct 2015, 13:40

Harimau gurugaLE,

>>But seriously, the Mysore Durbar did patronise a large number of musicians who did introduce a lot of Hindusthani ragas into CM.

Other than the famous Muthiah Bhagavatar himself with his Gaudamalhar and Hamsaanandi/Sohini etc, is there really compelling evidence for this statement ? And particularly as it applies to the (re)tuning of Purandaradasa or other Dasakuta compositions ?

If anything, I have found the traditional renditions of Purandaradasa padas from Mysore/Bangalore folks, Madhwa folks, to be in very regular and sedate Carnatic ragas only -- from musicians as varied as the late R.K.Srikantan, V.Ramaratnam, Shashikiran who have a connection with Mysore, Ms. Gayatri Kassebaum who hailed from that region but studied Gottuvaadyam with Budalur in Kalashetra and was in the US early on, and amateur singers of the area (have a friend from near Krishnarajasagara who knows several compositions in old varNameTTus, all sounding very madi-sanchi !).

Maybe it is the Janasammodinis or "sugam-sangIt" type attempts at these kritis that bother you !
________________________________

On a diffferent note, even when there are multiple tunes for these padas, they seem acceptable & sound authentic in their own way.

To take 2 very well known padas, "gajavadana bEduvE" -- you can hear it in Kedaram (DKP, if I remember right, a very endearing rendition), Dhanyasi (T.K.Govinda Rao , heard at a Vishwa Madhva Sangha concert here in San Jose), and the popular Hamsadhvani heard around Madras and elsewhere -- I daresay the last one sounds the razzmatazz version !

Similarly," kELano hari tAlanO" -- the SuruTTi version seems commonly heard from Mysore, Srimushnam Raja Rao sir sings it in an extremely moving manner in Purvikalyani (this version sounds very traditional and devout as far as the approach to the lyrics go -- the raga choice may be modern, I don't know), and MLV sang it in Kalyani on a cassette recording in the early 1980s... in fact, once again, it is the last version that sounds more modern, but it is very beautiful too !
___________________________________

On YK and Krishna Nee Begane Baro, it is specifically the gooey-gooey Hindustani-ish Alapana prelude by the great not-Mysore Bala/T.Viswa that makes me cringe

I always scratch my head as to why Viswa Sir feels compelled to play that way.

On the other hand, once the pada starts -- as heard in Narasimhulu's classic rendition on the Bala video from Wesleyan, or in the various dance snippets of Bala -- it is absolute nectar.

-Srini.

srini_pichumani · Post by **srini_pichumani** » 29 Oct 2015, 14:41

Keerthi,

excellent points about RAS' scholarship, and several important details. There is a 3 minute interview of his where he tells his Telugu interviewer about the lack of availability of original tunes for Annamayya compositions and how Prof.V.Raghavan asked him to meet Pudukottai Gopalakrishna Bhagavatar for a few Tallapaka family compositions from the Bhajana sampradaya including the Todayamangalam. I don't remember whether it was the TTD website or the website on RAS himself that had it.

>> It exemplifies his incisive erudition, wisdom, and humour

Are you referring to the same introductory essay ? Yes, it does have all of these elements. Harimau would enjoy it !

>> Equally precious are the rAgalakSaNa notes he appends, with brilliant insights on the genetic link between abhEri and Ahiri, through a common ancestral AbhIri

It is the "onomastic (sic)" in him coming from a literary background, apart from the musical/historical scholar that he was, that must have impelled him to see this genetic connection.

It is actually a very productive enterprise to just take musical nomenclature prima facie, speculate on the possibilities with some care, and see where it leads one to. Harold Powers did something similar in a classic article that he wrote in Asian Music wrt H & C musics (1968)... the starting point of his article was the very basic, but at times detailed, comparison attempted by B,Subba Rao in his Raga Nidhi volumes for the Music Academy.

>> his exceptional notes on the trishruti rishabha in deshAkSi that still glimmers albeit vestigially in the homologous Bilahari and so on.

This is pretty much "Standard issue" in some SRJ lec-dems

>> Prof T.Shachi told me how he explained SalanganATa and mangalakaisika with illustrations

I am curious as to how he interpreted the "cyuta pancama" in mangalakaisika.

When I heard Shanta Subramaniam's LP or EP recording of "s'rI bhArgavI bhadram" of Dikshitar in Mangalakais'iki long ago, I found it very intriguing and talked to her and her sister Vani Jayaram, and enquired a little bit about their study with Kadalur Srinivasa Iyengar from whom they learnt these compositions -- at that time, they were stationed in Vellore after the WWII Japanese-bombing-Madras scare !

Vani Jayaram just sang off the top of her head s'rI dakSiNAmurtim and renuka devi samrakSitoham -- the interesting part was the graha svara in Kannada Bangala which she sang exactly as the Doctor ordered...

The only other person I have heard another correct interpretation of grahasvaram was from the incomparable Kalpagam maami, but that was for the grahasvaram in nAri-rItigauLa... it was in 1994. Having been weaned on DKJ's gunijanadinuta in Gurjari and the way he interpreted graha svaras, I almost made bold to ask Kalpagam maami if what she was doing was "correct" and indeed the way she learnt it growing up. [Only later did I get confirmation from N.Ramanathan's paper on "s'Astra and prayoga" at the World Sanskrit Conference in Leiden 1992, the volumes of which made it slowly to our library. In 1997, I showed a video of her rendering this to Prof.N.Ramanathan for whom it was a revelation that a continuous tradition of rendering the graha svara in the manner prescribed by Subbarama Dikshitar actually existed.]

>> taught her (unpublished) Annamayya sankirtanams in those rAgas, along with those in malahari, pADi and gundakriya

Of course, his careful study and scholarship of the SSP must have guided him well. What a difference between how much he got out of it versus RRI who says that he has been staring at it for 16 years in an article, but did nothing but rail about it at the end... he was otherwise great in his own way !

>> and closely resemble authenticated walajapet and tillaistanam versions often.

As regards Tillaistaanam, I for one prefer their "nenaruncarA" (as heard from Smt.Ranganayaki Parthasarathy and Ms.Hema) against DKJ's/Sowmya's etc which I hear is the Umayalpuram version -- again, these are beautiful too !

On Walajapet versus Umayalpuram, a humorous note:

In an interview, N.S.Krishnaswamy Iyengar, disciple of Naina Pillai, says that he met TiruppAmburam Swaminatha Pillai and asked him if he knew "dorakunA" in Bilahari and if he could teach him. TSP says OK, but then NSK asks him whose version it is -- when TSP says it is the Umayalpuram version, NSK abruptly recoils and says "enakku vaanaam" (thanks, no thanks !) in very Madras-tinged Tamil.

-Srini.

ps: But wrt "evari mATa" he says that when he asked Tiger for an opinion, Tiger told him to keep the Ariyakudi version NSK learnt first, as against his later teacher Naina's version, despite Tiger's fondness for Naina !

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Oct 2015, 23:58

srini,
Thanks for responding. You asked JS to sing one of my favorites of MD (muddu/Muthu)! Still waiting to hear it in a concert for that matter! At home, whenever I sing it, the song moves me just as it did when I first heard B.Rajam Iyer teach it to JS...

You, Keerthi and other experts make me feel awestruck. How much of all that I read I retain of what you all discuss is another matter

srini_pichumani · Post by **srini_pichumani** » 30 Oct 2015, 03:13

>>the song moves me just as it did when I first heard B.Rajam Iyer teach it to JS...

That makes sense... since the way I got her to sing this kriti was offer B.Rajam Iyer's notation of this kriti from Swadesamitran in the 1950s as per TLV's pATAntaram, which she used to recall some details.

I do have a very good recording of her Aug 1991 concert on tape that I will be glad to loan to you or anyone who wants to listen/digitize/load up anywhere... or maybe her rendition of this kriti or the full concert is already available online ?

-Srini.

ps: BTW, her earlier guru in Trivandrum, NNB, was present at many sessions where TLV learnt Dikshitar kritis from Ambi Dikshitar. Apparently, HMB would be resting in an "easychair", with NNB at his feet, as his younger cousin TLV was learning from Ambi Dikshitar formally. NNB hence learnt the kritis by osmosis as well as took the opportunity to write down some kritis with notations of his own. That is how he acquired his enviable repertoire of Dikshitar kritis and passed it on to his nephew Prof.Y.Sitaraman (who JS knows well). Prof.YS went further and even did a mandala of puja as recommended by Kallidakuricchi Ramalinga Bhagavatar and learnt the mantra kriti directly from KRB.

Back in 1989, Kannikeswaran and the Dayton folks celebrated a Dikshitar day in the Dayton temple where Prof.YS gave an all-Dikshitar concert with some rare pieces. Kanniks and his group, for their part, sang several rare noTTu-svarams acquired from his pATTi who had learnt all 33 of them from Anantakrishna Iyer in Calcutta, if I remember right. Wonder what Kanniks is upto these days !

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 30 Oct 2015, 03:50

Srini,
As far as I know, not any old concert of JS is available on youtube. I would love to hear (and for others to hear) what you have. Though, I wouldn't know how to listen to it unless it's right there at a click--unlettered as I am in technology. I am still trying to find her seven to five+kaTTai singing voice from the early days! wonder

As for the Calcutta school, wonder if J&J (members of Rasikas.org) have anything to add...

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 30 Oct 2015, 08:25

As for the Calcutta school, wonder if J&J (members of Rasikas.org) have anything to add..

Busy planning for their AIR Sangeeth Sammelan concert , I guess
http://allindiaradio.gov.in/pages/sangeet-samelan.aspx
Download brochure for full details

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 30 Oct 2015, 12:37

srini_pitchumani Sir,

With reference to your post #72 on tuning/re tuning of Dasara Padas/Devaranamas, Mysuru Maharajas, becoming regent for British, got exposed to Western Classical, studied and employed Western Classical Musicians. They were also attracted to Hindustani Music. They did make demands on their asthana pramukha maha vidwans to learn western classical music and appreciate Hindustani music and tune or re tune compositions with the influence of both the system. One outstanding maha vidwan who took up the challenge was Venkatagiri Appa, a great maestro in Veena and Piano. Other noteworthy maha vidwans were Veena Seshanna and Subbanna, Bidaram Krishnappa, Karigiri Rao. This resulted in change from Tanjore School of music sampradaya to Mysuru School of Music with emphasis on plain notes/harmony. Mysuru Vasudevachar, a strong votary of his Tanjore School of music training and scholarship resented, did not accede to the requests of Maharajas and did undergo hardship of patronage and support for some years.

With regard to tuning and re tuning of Dasara Padas/Devara Namas, there were two distinct contributions-Vyasa Koota and Dasa kota. Madhwa pontiffs took the lead of creating compositions and they are known as Vyasa Koota. Their compositions were based on the Bhajana Sampradaya. Disciples of Madhwa pontiffs-Vyasa Raya, Vadi Raya, Narahari Tirtha, Raghavendra Tirtha, Sri Pada Raya and few more, created compositions with emphasis on art form music with well defined lakshya and lakshanas-raga and tala, very good variants on the preexisting Bhajana Sampradaya and Vyasa Koota compositions. The prominent disciples were Purandara Dasa, Kanaka Dasa, Jagannatha Dasa, Vijaya Dasa, Kamalesa Vittala and many Women composers. They all advocated and followed the sampradaya of Batdheesa Ragas-32-Sampoorna ragas and Suladi Sapta Talas. With set belief of Madhwa and Dwaita Religion & Philosophy of 'Hari Sarvottama, Vaayu Jeevottama' and 'Pundareeka Vittala' as Hari incarnation, established the sampradaya of eschewing asampoorna/vakra svara ragas and other non standardized talas, other than Suladi Sapta Talas, as they were only considered to suit the 'Hari & Vaayu, Sampoornatva and Sarvottamatva', Dosha rahita. Musicians with strong connectivity with Dasa koota parampara, followed the sampradaya, uncompromisingly. Musicians rendered based strictly on very rich Karna parampara, Karna parampara of simple varnamettus but establishing both the Sahithya and Raga Bhavams. The quality of music of Dasa Koota parampara inspired many later day vaggeyakaras, including greatest composers Kshetrayya, Shyama Shastri, Thyagaraja and Mudduswami Deekshita.

These greatest composers contribution perfected and made the art form of Karnataka Sangeetham, as one of the greatest of arts in World Music. Practitioners with their training and study of these greatest composers and other composers later times, desired contemporizing the Dasara Padas/Devara Namas. This resulted in re tuning and tuning the compositions commencing from 20th Century, not conforming to the sampradaya of Batdeesha ragas and Suladi Sapta Talas only. Simple but beautiful varnamettus of Dasara Padas/Devara Namas, yielded to trinity music in compositions and renderings. This has resulted in eclipse of varnamettus but beautiful renderings of Dasara Padas/Devara Namas conforming to the contemporary art music practice and appreciation. Fortunately, we do have Dasas of Vyasa Koota and Dasa Koota parampara with original compositions. If we continue their neglect and not archiving their renderings and music, art form of music will suffer the loss of karna parampara.

In 21st Century, Pandits of Hindustani Music hailing mostly from Hubli/Dharwad/Raichur/Gulbarga/Shimoga/Mangalore took to the renditions of Dasara Padas/Devara Namas re tuning in Hindustani ragas. Mallikarjuna Mansur, Bhimsen Joshi, Gangu Bai Hangal, Panchakshari Gavai and many more pandits made them extremely popular. Their popularity resulted in re tuning the padas in to Hindustani Ragas by practitioners of Karnataka Sangeetham. In the recent past and present times, contemporizing to the current trend of popularity is the practice, paying lip sympathy to the sampradaya and convention.

We do have great written books and articles by Scholars on record on Vyasa Koota and Dasa Koota. AIR archives of recordings and few private records/albums do give the glimpses of these varnamettus and compositions. Dasa Sahithya Project of TTD under the able leadership of Sri Ananda Tirthachar doing great work in revitalizing the Vyasa Koota, Dasa Koota and Karna Parmpara-through publishing; programs; teaching projects.

Just for correcting-it is 'Madi-Panchi' of Madhwas, not 'madi-sanchi'

munirao2001

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 01 Nov 2015, 21:30

srini_pichumani wrote:Back in 1989, Kannikeswaran and the Dayton folks celebrated a Dikshitar day in the Dayton temple where Prof.YS gave an all-Dikshitar concert with some rare pieces. Kanniks and his group, for their part, sang several rare noTTu-svarams acquired from his pATTi who had learnt all 33 of them from Anantakrishna Iyer in Calcutta, if I remember right. Wonder what Kanniks is upto these days !

Srini, info via Dr. Chandra Balachandran of The Institute of Geographical Studies, Bangalore:
Kanniks and his daughter are scheduled to be singing a noTTUsvaram on Saturday, 7 November, 2015, in Bangalore at an event 'Geography as Melody' on MD organised by Chandra.

See https://scontent.fmaa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/ ... e=56CECC4B

srini_pichumani · Post by **srini_pichumani** » 04 Nov 2015, 12:29

Arasi madam, I finally managed to get this one kriti converted and uploaded on archive.org. Here is the link:

https://archive.org/details/TyagarajamB ... 1DetroitNR

-Srini.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Nov 2015, 01:30

Srini,
Thanks

Made my day--pet kriti, rAgA I'm partial to, and JS singing it! I hear it clearly as B.Rajam Iyer taught her this.

Wish other musicians take it up to sing in their concerts. Pleasing to sing, pleasing to hear, a 'muthAna MD song.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 12 Nov 2015, 20:20

The November 2015 issue of Sruti magazine features an article by Dr Sumathi Krishnan on this topic. The author has threatened that she will continue it in future issue(s) of the magazine.

satishsatish · Post by **satishsatish** » 12 Nov 2015, 23:17

Thank you for the pointer, I shall review Dr Krishnan's article shortly.
Sruti--with their sharp focus, depth, quality of writing and editing--is for me a rare exemplar of excellence, a benchmark and an institution worthy of emulation.

My appreciation to all that contributed to this thread. Reading the various postings and taking notes has been very rewarding (and edifying too) and has vastly enriched my meager knowledge of this art form.

ramamantra · Post by **ramamantra** » 17 Nov 2015, 15:38

Doesn't mean anything. Just one more way of singing the kriti. More showing off - that's all.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 13 May 2018, 23:41

The syllable setting , landings, and kArvai extensions of this : https://youtu.be/ul0GUEz_HqU?t=1733 is quintessentially carnatic, but the rAgA choice is somewhat somber for a marriage - lacks the kutUhala of the khAmbOji.

Whereas the rhythmic setting in this is more somewhere in between nAma sankirtana and Carnatic music : https://youtu.be/W0aTa4knqeg?t=30

In the real namasankIRtana world - it has gone to simplified 8 beats: https://youtu.be/e5BF4dnGSlo?t=197

Lot of weight gets added to lot of compositions by going from 8 -> 7.

Of late with old threads being revived - thought of jumping on the trend!

rasikas.org

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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

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Re: What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

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