Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar
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Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar
(This topic was split off from the discussion that originated in a TMK concert review thread http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic ... 47#p289947 )
'Mudduswamy' sounds harsh to me. I do not find any word 'muddu' in Samskritham. Mutthu is a Tamizh word (arguably from muktha in Samskritham) and Mutthuswamy Dikshithar was Tamizh by all means. I have not heard any Tamizh person say Mudduswamy. Why not follow the Tamizh pronunciation for a Tamizh name?
'Mudduswamy' sounds harsh to me. I do not find any word 'muddu' in Samskritham. Mutthu is a Tamizh word (arguably from muktha in Samskritham) and Mutthuswamy Dikshithar was Tamizh by all means. I have not heard any Tamizh person say Mudduswamy. Why not follow the Tamizh pronunciation for a Tamizh name?
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
KVChellapa Sir,
Tanjore Maratha Prince Amarasimha (also Ramaswami) and Ramaswami Dikshita, Father, chose the name of 'Mudduswamy Dikshita', after their kula devatha, Azhagiya Murugan and Subrahmanya. 'Muddu' is Telugu word, one of the State language (other language was Sanskrit), derivative of 'Mugdha' of Sanskrit, meaning 'beautiful' /Azhagu. Grown up and becoming a great musician, scholar and vaggeyakara, 'Kondi parampara' Devadasis and Stalwart Nagasvara Vidwans attached to the Thyagaraja Swami Temple and Tiruvarur Court started addressing him as 'Muthuswamy Dikshitar'. This is on records.
In respecting the history, we honor the two great musicians, scholars and vaggeyakaras Ramaswami Dikshita and Mudduswamy Dikshita with reference to their Namakarana.
munirao2001
Tanjore Maratha Prince Amarasimha (also Ramaswami) and Ramaswami Dikshita, Father, chose the name of 'Mudduswamy Dikshita', after their kula devatha, Azhagiya Murugan and Subrahmanya. 'Muddu' is Telugu word, one of the State language (other language was Sanskrit), derivative of 'Mugdha' of Sanskrit, meaning 'beautiful' /Azhagu. Grown up and becoming a great musician, scholar and vaggeyakara, 'Kondi parampara' Devadasis and Stalwart Nagasvara Vidwans attached to the Thyagaraja Swami Temple and Tiruvarur Court started addressing him as 'Muthuswamy Dikshitar'. This is on records.
In respecting the history, we honor the two great musicians, scholars and vaggeyakaras Ramaswami Dikshita and Mudduswamy Dikshita with reference to their Namakarana.
munirao2001
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
Rao garu, wasn't it also because he went to Vaitheeswaran Koil and prayed for a boy in the shrine of Muruga there? Murugan is called Muthukumara Swamy in Vaitheeswaran Koil. This is also mentioned in Subarama Dikshitar's Vagyekara Charitham.
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
I do not know the basis of the above story. Sri Ranga Ramanuja Iyengar does not refer to any such incident. He says that Sri MD's father observed austerities for 40 days in Vaitheeswaran koil, where Subramhmanya is known as Muthu Kumara Swamy. (This name has been current longer than the story cited above). The parents named him after Muthu Kumaraswamy. Smt. DKP learn directly from Ambi Dikshithar and she was impeccable in pronunciation. She pronounced the name as 'Mutthuswamy' and she would have come to know if that was wrong. Mutthuswamy is a common name on TN and nobody pronounces it as Mudduswamy. It is perhaps in order to follow the convention rather than change it arbitrarily. I would be unhappy if somebody called me Jellappa. (Incidentally my name is after the same deity, who is called chella pillai.)
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
Mahesh S and KV Chellappa Sirs,
In our sampradaya, the author/practitioners relate and invoke 'divine' intervention to vaggeyakara but this is hagiography but not history. Subbrama Dikshitar's story was taken as authoritative. Ranga Ramanuja Iyyengar and many other musicologists later took the story and wrote/spoke about it.
Both the names are correct, it is not harsh statement.
munirao2001
In our sampradaya, the author/practitioners relate and invoke 'divine' intervention to vaggeyakara but this is hagiography but not history. Subbrama Dikshitar's story was taken as authoritative. Ranga Ramanuja Iyyengar and many other musicologists later took the story and wrote/spoke about it.
Both the names are correct, it is not harsh statement.
munirao2001
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
Anyway only Chellappa is correct as my name. Let the vaggeyakkara take care of himself!
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
And we merely call him MD here, as if he practiced medicine Had he been around, he would have have told us exactly what his preference was.
As for a small fry composer, I have this to say. I did not mind a few of my friends through the years calling me rADje, Rojet and so on because of the amity we shared, but a hundred years from now, if a few of my songs do survive, I'd like to be remembered as Arasi aka Rajee
As for a small fry composer, I have this to say. I did not mind a few of my friends through the years calling me rADje, Rojet and so on because of the amity we shared, but a hundred years from now, if a few of my songs do survive, I'd like to be remembered as Arasi aka Rajee
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
While one or the other version may sound harsh to one's ears depending on individual tastes; there is absolutely no doubt that SubbarAma DIksitar uses the term MudduswAmi while referring to our composer.
I am inclined to take him as the ultimate authority for this matter, if not for everything that he says.
However in the current post-modern world, which is so supremely democratic that everyone is entitled to their personal pAThAntaram of practically everything [except knowledge in the Natural Sciences and Technology], sure, we are all entitled to use different pAThantara-s of not just the kRti, but even the composer's name.
This can be a good topic for a musicology doctoral thesis; or in the very least a Music Academy Morning Lecture-Demonstration. 'PAThantara-s in the names of pretrinity and post-trinity composers'. One could cover shYAmA versus shAma shAstri, and the many ksetragna-ksetrayya variants. An ambitious scholar could also look at the diachronic and synchronic semantic differences in the allotropes of tyAgarAja - tyAgarAjayya, tyAgayya, tyAgabrahmam, tyAgayyar-vAL, and IyervAL.
I am inclined to take him as the ultimate authority for this matter, if not for everything that he says.
However in the current post-modern world, which is so supremely democratic that everyone is entitled to their personal pAThAntaram of practically everything [except knowledge in the Natural Sciences and Technology], sure, we are all entitled to use different pAThantara-s of not just the kRti, but even the composer's name.
This can be a good topic for a musicology doctoral thesis; or in the very least a Music Academy Morning Lecture-Demonstration. 'PAThantara-s in the names of pretrinity and post-trinity composers'. One could cover shYAmA versus shAma shAstri, and the many ksetragna-ksetrayya variants. An ambitious scholar could also look at the diachronic and synchronic semantic differences in the allotropes of tyAgarAja - tyAgarAjayya, tyAgayya, tyAgabrahmam, tyAgayyar-vAL, and IyervAL.
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
Keerthi - I think the Bard (of Avon) should have the last word here:
What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
Having said that, I have a friend who says that TamBrams, being possessive so-and-sos may also claim that the 'ear' in the Bard's name could, at a stretch be a variant of Iyer!!
What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
Having said that, I have a friend who says that TamBrams, being possessive so-and-sos may also claim that the 'ear' in the Bard's name could, at a stretch be a variant of Iyer!!
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
or iyengAr, other tambrams might claim
But, he was jaga siRpiyE, in his sculpting words to convey universal truths...
But, he was jaga siRpiyE, in his sculpting words to convey universal truths...
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
Your unhappiness would increase if someone called you Jellaba!kvchellappa wrote:I would be unhappy if somebody called me Jellappa. (Incidentally my name is after the same deity, who is called chella pillai.)
http://www.amazon.com/Moroccan-Men-Dres ... B007GDSIMG
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
Harimau,
If Chellappa is called 'Jellabba' by someone, I'd assume he has a bad cold
If Chellappa is called 'Jellabba' by someone, I'd assume he has a bad cold
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
Spoken like someone with a lot of experience in these matters and in the ways of the Fezharimau wrote:I would be unhappy if somebody called me Jellappa. (Incidentally my name is after the same deity, who is called chella pillai.)
Your unhappiness would increase if someone called you Jellaba!
http://www.amazon.com/Moroccan-Men-Dres ... B007GDSIMG
Keerthi: I wonder if SubbarAma Dikshitar's usage of Mudduswamy could have come from a general Telugu influence. I have known descendants of MD (including my first guru, Sri Baluswami Dikshitar), who clearly referred to MD as "Muthuswamy" when speaking colloquial tamizh.
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
How can we be finicky about right pronunciation, and spelling and transliteration of lyrics from a dezabhASa into HK-roman, and then cite 'a rose by any other name'. There is probably a dissonance between these two stances? If roses smell sweet by any name, I could call chellappa not just jellabba or djellaba but also jalebi. I won't because I respect him, and also take history seriously.Keerthi - I think the Bard (of Avon) should have the last word here:
What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
About Shakpaiyyar being a smArta, yes I too have heard of it. Not just was he ayyar, he was a Tanjavur Vadama, bred on Kavery water and jIlakara sambA rice. He was a court poet of the Vijaynagar feudatory Nayaka chieftain of Stratford-upon-avinanguDi. A copperplate inscription (now in private hands) lists several other texts of his including a multilingual sonnet in English, telugu, Marathi and Tamil, as well as several koravanjis and Yaksaganamu-s. His (unacknowledged) influences include Nannayya, Kamban and NilakaNTha Diksitar.
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
Honestly, I couldn't care less what was DikSitar's given name; it doesn't change the way I learn, sing or evaluate his musical compositions. My response was solely in response to the comment that used a bunch of irrelevant facts(?) to determine the 'correct' name of Ramaswami Diksitar's oldest son.
Also, while I agree with Munirao sir about what Diksitar’s given name was, please note my method of determining the name isn’t the same as his. I am not so sure about Amarasimha’s contribution to the name, for instance.
In light of Mahavishnu's comment [he will be coopted into the advisory board of the PhD student] the thesis will now include a chapter 'Methodological concerns in comparative and historical onomastics'.
A chapter abstract follows..
PUrvapakSa I:
- “Sounds harsh to me” is not really a pramANa [episteme] in determining historical fact.
- Muttu is indubitably a Tamil word [for pearl] not necessarily derived from Sanskrit mukta. Philologists point out that this may be one of those Sanskrit words of Dravidian origin. [Not that it has anything to do with Chellappa Sir’s or my argument]
- We don’t know if the name was meant to a be a Tamil name. The last two lines operate on this assumption.
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PUrvapakSa II -
0. MD’s name was a Tamil name.
1. SD didn’t know Tamil too well.
2. SD’s Telugu learning influenced/ contaminated his Tamil to a degree that he misspelt the name of his most illustrious forebear, the prime reason for him to print the book at hand.
pratipakSa –
0. This isn’t a simple case such as the difference between the name variants veGgaDesan and veGkaTEza, and a debate over which is the canonical form. It is a case of determining a very specific individual’s name, based on the limited clues we have [which should include resources such as Ambi Diksitar’s oral account].
1. While SD was schooled in Sanskrit grammar, and learnt Telugu as a literary language, complete with a couple of Mahakavyas in it; this didn’t diminish his knowledge of Tamil. He edited, tuned and notated the valli-bhAratam, and his notations of the Tamil padams and kRtis in the SSP don’t point to any deficit in his knowledge of Tamil. He actually took pains to give bilingual notation for the tamil padams, with notation in Telugu script and lyric in Tamil script.
2. SD was a meticulous and systematic scholar, which is increasingly evident to me. He has consistently used the name mudduswami, while referring to the composer in his own [SD’s own] biography, in his biographies of the other family members – ramaswami, baluswami etc in the vAggeyakAracaritamu, and while referring to his own son [whom we knew as Ambi dikSitar].
Further, he use the term muddukumAra referring to the deity of Vaidiswarankoil, and not muttukumAra, in the song Bhaja re citta bAlambikAm.
I doubt if the influence of a second language, learnt primarily for literary and professional pursuits, will affect a person so much that they will spell their (grand)uncle’s (and son’s) name differently. Or distort the lyric of a song in Sanskrit.
The anthropological linguist Whorf would have been delighted if this were true, and if learning a new language can have such a dramatic effect on one’s speech, thought and writing. I for one, am unconvinced.
------------------------------
One last bit of evidence..
And this thing came to mind entirely because of KVchellappa’s pointer that his name is a synonym of the deity at Vaidiswarankoil. The kannada and telugu terms muddu refer to a caress, cuddling, and an object of affection [equivalent to the Tamil chellam]. Hence, it would make sense that a darling child (kumAra) is a muddukumAra, along the lines of the poetess muddupazhani, and the ruler of Ettayapuram, MuddusvAmi Ettendra and the 19th century poet MuddaNNa. This term ‘muddu’ has a cognate in Tamil that is pronounced identical to the Tamil word for pearl. I feel they are two separate words that merely share a correspondence of form. [a pair of faux ami]. Burrow and Emeneau’s Dravidian etymological dictionaries lists them as two separate entries [#4062 muttu = pearl, #4063 muttu/muddu = kiss, caress].
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Conclusions
For the curmudgeonly, persnickety nitpickers, a rose smells incrementally sweeter, when affixed with a name determined on historically sound grounds. Telling them to disregard the difference between muttu and muddu is casting pearls before varAhAvatAram.
Also, while I agree with Munirao sir about what Diksitar’s given name was, please note my method of determining the name isn’t the same as his. I am not so sure about Amarasimha’s contribution to the name, for instance.
In light of Mahavishnu's comment [he will be coopted into the advisory board of the PhD student] the thesis will now include a chapter 'Methodological concerns in comparative and historical onomastics'.
A chapter abstract follows..
PUrvapakSa I:
pratipakSa:'Mudduswamy' sounds harsh to me. I do not find any word 'muddu' in Samskritham. Mutthu is a Tamizh word (arguably from muktha in Samskritham) and Mutthuswamy Dikshithar was Tamizh by all means. I have not heard any Tamizh person say Mudduswamy. Why not follow the Tamizh pronunciation for a Tamizh name?
- “Sounds harsh to me” is not really a pramANa [episteme] in determining historical fact.
- Muttu is indubitably a Tamil word [for pearl] not necessarily derived from Sanskrit mukta. Philologists point out that this may be one of those Sanskrit words of Dravidian origin. [Not that it has anything to do with Chellappa Sir’s or my argument]
- We don’t know if the name was meant to a be a Tamil name. The last two lines operate on this assumption.
--------------------------------
PUrvapakSa II -
The first sentence points to one of several possible assumptions –Keerthi: I wonder if SubbarAma Dikshitar's usage of Mudduswamy could have come from a general Telugu influence. I have known descendants of MD (including my first guru, Sri Baluswami Dikshitar), who clearly referred to MD as "Muthuswamy" when speaking colloquial tamizh.
0. MD’s name was a Tamil name.
1. SD didn’t know Tamil too well.
2. SD’s Telugu learning influenced/ contaminated his Tamil to a degree that he misspelt the name of his most illustrious forebear, the prime reason for him to print the book at hand.
pratipakSa –
0. This isn’t a simple case such as the difference between the name variants veGgaDesan and veGkaTEza, and a debate over which is the canonical form. It is a case of determining a very specific individual’s name, based on the limited clues we have [which should include resources such as Ambi Diksitar’s oral account].
1. While SD was schooled in Sanskrit grammar, and learnt Telugu as a literary language, complete with a couple of Mahakavyas in it; this didn’t diminish his knowledge of Tamil. He edited, tuned and notated the valli-bhAratam, and his notations of the Tamil padams and kRtis in the SSP don’t point to any deficit in his knowledge of Tamil. He actually took pains to give bilingual notation for the tamil padams, with notation in Telugu script and lyric in Tamil script.
2. SD was a meticulous and systematic scholar, which is increasingly evident to me. He has consistently used the name mudduswami, while referring to the composer in his own [SD’s own] biography, in his biographies of the other family members – ramaswami, baluswami etc in the vAggeyakAracaritamu, and while referring to his own son [whom we knew as Ambi dikSitar].
Further, he use the term muddukumAra referring to the deity of Vaidiswarankoil, and not muttukumAra, in the song Bhaja re citta bAlambikAm.
I doubt if the influence of a second language, learnt primarily for literary and professional pursuits, will affect a person so much that they will spell their (grand)uncle’s (and son’s) name differently. Or distort the lyric of a song in Sanskrit.
The anthropological linguist Whorf would have been delighted if this were true, and if learning a new language can have such a dramatic effect on one’s speech, thought and writing. I for one, am unconvinced.
------------------------------
One last bit of evidence..
And this thing came to mind entirely because of KVchellappa’s pointer that his name is a synonym of the deity at Vaidiswarankoil. The kannada and telugu terms muddu refer to a caress, cuddling, and an object of affection [equivalent to the Tamil chellam]. Hence, it would make sense that a darling child (kumAra) is a muddukumAra, along the lines of the poetess muddupazhani, and the ruler of Ettayapuram, MuddusvAmi Ettendra and the 19th century poet MuddaNNa. This term ‘muddu’ has a cognate in Tamil that is pronounced identical to the Tamil word for pearl. I feel they are two separate words that merely share a correspondence of form. [a pair of faux ami]. Burrow and Emeneau’s Dravidian etymological dictionaries lists them as two separate entries [#4062 muttu = pearl, #4063 muttu/muddu = kiss, caress].
---------------------
Conclusions
For the curmudgeonly, persnickety nitpickers, a rose smells incrementally sweeter, when affixed with a name determined on historically sound grounds. Telling them to disregard the difference between muttu and muddu is casting pearls before varAhAvatAram.
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
Despite the scholarly dissertation of Sri Keerthi, Mudduswamy is exotic to Tamizh people and is unlikely to be the way the composer was named and known.
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
I am curious to know if there are any Telugu or Kannada people with the name Mudduswamy. An ex-colleague of mine (Kannada speaking) has this spelling Muthu Swamy, but several people in Bengaluru may have had Tamizh roots. I did not bother to check it.
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muddhuswami or muththuswamy dikshithar?
Kvchellappa Sir, Like I said earlier, everyone is entitled to use whatever name/ spelling/pronunciation for whomsoever they like.
However, my shamelessness as well as a mulish, rather unimaginative sense of doing systematic history [which isn't merely based on everyday intuitions or opinions] forces me to respond. I hate to use evidence of the kind 'This person said so, that person said so' but am forced to offer such material to further my case.
While I am a mere baby in the study of musicology and the history of Indian music, and it would be reasonable to doubt the laboured views of a non-entity in the field like me, I hope you will think twice before dismissing the wisdom of SubbarAma Diksitar, RangarAmanuja Iyengar, T.K.Govinda Rao and R.Sathyanarayana - all of whom refer to the savant as muddusvAmi.
With that, I rest my case. I promise, I will say no more in this matter, having exhausted all material available to me, and having made transparent my approach and methods.
Cheers,
Keerthi
However, my shamelessness as well as a mulish, rather unimaginative sense of doing systematic history [which isn't merely based on everyday intuitions or opinions] forces me to respond. I hate to use evidence of the kind 'This person said so, that person said so' but am forced to offer such material to further my case.
While I am a mere baby in the study of musicology and the history of Indian music, and it would be reasonable to doubt the laboured views of a non-entity in the field like me, I hope you will think twice before dismissing the wisdom of SubbarAma Diksitar, RangarAmanuja Iyengar, T.K.Govinda Rao and R.Sathyanarayana - all of whom refer to the savant as muddusvAmi.
With that, I rest my case. I promise, I will say no more in this matter, having exhausted all material available to me, and having made transparent my approach and methods.
Cheers,
Keerthi
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
R.R. Iyengar refers to Ramaswamy Dikshitar praying at V.Koil, a Muthu malali being presented by the deity in dream, and the son being named after Muthu Kumaraswamy (it is certainly not muddu kumaraswamy) as Muthuswamy. It is in Tamizh as Sri Iyengar wrote. There is no way to infer from this that he used Mudduswamy.
There are some Tamizh persons who write akshi for atchi and kakshi for katchi wrongly. It is not clear if anyone has likewise written Muthuswaamy like that in Telugu.
I know two people named Bathrinath and Margabanthu. They are their names. No research is admissible.
How was the composer named and known? That is the only thing that is relevant. Any length of thesis is of no value here. No clinching evidence has been provided on either side.
I would like to rest the debate here.
There are some Tamizh persons who write akshi for atchi and kakshi for katchi wrongly. It is not clear if anyone has likewise written Muthuswaamy like that in Telugu.
I know two people named Bathrinath and Margabanthu. They are their names. No research is admissible.
How was the composer named and known? That is the only thing that is relevant. Any length of thesis is of no value here. No clinching evidence has been provided on either side.
I would like to rest the debate here.
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
Muththam = kiss, in tamil is still in vogue.keerthi wrote:
<Lots of interesting stuff elided.>
This term ‘muddu’ has a cognate in Tamil that is pronounced identical to the Tamil word for pearl. I feel they are two separate words that merely share a correspondence of form. [a pair of faux ami]. Burrow and Emeneau’s Dravidian etymological dictionaries lists them as two separate entries [#4062 muttu = pearl, #4063 muttu/muddu = kiss, caress].
I don't think the Muthu in Muthukumaraswamy refers to the "pearl".
So I think keethi's conclusion stands.
<Gavel bang>
Thanks for the debate, KVC.
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
I don't know telugu but http://annamayya-sankirthana.blogspot.c ... shoda.html refers to the word muddu as meaning pearl in Telugu - perhaps these two words are the same - either tamil took the sanskrit word and tamilized it or the way around. At any rate, mudduswami just doesn't sound right to a tamil ear.
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
Thanks for the link. Check again. "Muthyamu" is pearl.
The "churning of the milky ocean" seems to be an apt analogy for the current age of science/technology.
The "churning of the milky ocean" seems to be an apt analogy for the current age of science/technology.
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
Don't you mean 'Ayyar'?rshankar wrote: Having said that, I have a friend who says that TamBrams, being possessive so-and-sos may also claim that the 'ear' in the Bard's name could, at a stretch be a variant of Iyer!!
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
For what its worth, the reference to the (Murugan) deity at Vaitheeswaran Temple as muthukumaraswamy predates MD's birth by atleast about 100 years based on the (17th) timeline of kumaragupara desikar (kumaraguruparar) whose works includes "muthukumaraswamy piLLai tamizh".
On a somewhat related note, the use of the word mu(th)tham for pearl appears in thirukkural itself, and muthu for pearl e.g. (http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/p ... 8.tamillex) appears in nAlaDiyAr (1st-5th century AD). So both have been in tamil for quite a bit of time.
Although it seems surprising (to put it euphemistically) I guess it is still possible that MD was named mudduswami by his parents (who I am not sure were telugu descendants unlike SS?) living in an area, and after a deity whom locals were in all probability referring to as muthuswamy, which fits the local language's phonetic rules, as well as meaning.
Arun
On a somewhat related note, the use of the word mu(th)tham for pearl appears in thirukkural itself, and muthu for pearl e.g. (http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/p ... 8.tamillex) appears in nAlaDiyAr (1st-5th century AD). So both have been in tamil for quite a bit of time.
Although it seems surprising (to put it euphemistically) I guess it is still possible that MD was named mudduswami by his parents (who I am not sure were telugu descendants unlike SS?) living in an area, and after a deity whom locals were in all probability referring to as muthuswamy, which fits the local language's phonetic rules, as well as meaning.
Arun
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
The mote on which I rested the debate is: Muthuswamy (a popular Tamizh name) is the name of the composer. Incidentally there does not appear to be anyone with the name Mudduswamy.
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
Is the word Muttukkumaara occuring in Diskshitar's Bhaja re rechitta kriti ("guruguha rUpa muttukkumaara jananIm") a reference to himself by Diskshitar - an extended mudra? If so the case for Muttuswami gets strengthened.
But personally I don't find it jarring when I come across Diskshitar's name written as Mudduswami - the same goes for other regionally preferred variants such as Rugmini, ThanKappan, Thampi though we in TN are used to different spellings of all these names.
That said, isn't even 'Muttuswaami' a Sanskritized version of the name, not admissible in grammatical Tamil? Muttusaami, or a stricter Muttuchchaami is what Tamil pundits would approve
But personally I don't find it jarring when I come across Diskshitar's name written as Mudduswami - the same goes for other regionally preferred variants such as Rugmini, ThanKappan, Thampi though we in TN are used to different spellings of all these names.
That said, isn't even 'Muttuswaami' a Sanskritized version of the name, not admissible in grammatical Tamil? Muttusaami, or a stricter Muttuchchaami is what Tamil pundits would approve
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
Another perspective is that we don't know in what language their parents originally named him. Written script might be different from phonetic irrespective of Telugu or Tamil origins. Our anglicised name writing is usually misguided as well. A subtle clue could be that he wasn't named Muthukumaraswami but simply Muthuswami.
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
Sri kvchellappa,
I humbly request that we end this discussion please.
keerthi is clearly quoting solid evidence while you are more "empirical" in your argument ("sounds harsh", "is there anyone else like this?", etc.).
Clearly going by current evidence, keerthi is right here.
Let us please not extend an argument merely to have the last word on it please.
Thanks,
PP.
I humbly request that we end this discussion please.
keerthi is clearly quoting solid evidence while you are more "empirical" in your argument ("sounds harsh", "is there anyone else like this?", etc.).
Clearly going by current evidence, keerthi is right here.
Let us please not extend an argument merely to have the last word on it please.
Thanks,
PP.
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
Sorry, I am still not convinced, with all respects to Keerthi, there is no *solid* evidence. Seems all point to the grand Vaitheeswaran Koil where the diety is called Muthu Kumara Swamy. Let's look at the other son's as well.pperumal wrote:Sri kvchellappa,
I humbly request that we end this discussion please.
keerthi is clearly quoting solid evidence while you are more "empirical" in your argument ("sounds harsh", "is there anyone else like this?", etc.).
Clearly going by current evidence, keerthi is right here.
Let us please not extend an argument merely to have the last word on it please.
Thanks,
PP.
Muthu Swamy - Muddu Swamy
Chinna Swamy - Chinni Swamy [?]
Balu Swamy - ???
And yes, it does sound harsh and yes there is no others named like him, what's wrong with the observation?
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
I also feel that the evidence presented isnt as comprehensive.
Arguments for mudduswamy being not used among tamil folks aside, I also find it curious (and at times frustrating) that (here), we seem to not consider evidence in earlier tamil literature serious enough - or take it to silly levels using modern dravidian movement as a strawman's argument.
If we want to use evidence, it would be best to consider all that is applicable looking for multiple independent corroboration. If one wants to look for "muttu" as pearl vs other meanings in tamil (and thus usage in tamil land) to see its applicability for muttusvamy or muttukumaraswamy, for a period of use that is as recent as 18th century, I think one needs to look at references in tamil literature that preceded it. Ignoring that seems like massive gaping hole IMO.
I already pointed one out earlier (kumaraguruparar), which appears to have been completely ignored . Here are some meanings for muttu in tamil with references in tamil literature: http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/p ... splay=utf8. The second one implies beauty which I believe is what applies to the deity here (muruga/shanmukha being referred to as the beautiful one is a very common reference in Tamil), and yes this word is marked as a derivation from mugdha, but also note that usage is as early as in nammAzhvAr's periya tiruvandAdi. That predates the timeline here by atleast a millenium.
(Yes it is still possible with the influence in music in Tamil land by telugu kings also translates to names, and thus MD was named muddusvamy as a telugu-name, and this along with Subbarama Dikshitar's reference may still prove strong to establish it, even if it is at odds with other evidence, but the other contradictory evidence is still present and still strong).
Arun
Arguments for mudduswamy being not used among tamil folks aside, I also find it curious (and at times frustrating) that (here), we seem to not consider evidence in earlier tamil literature serious enough - or take it to silly levels using modern dravidian movement as a strawman's argument.
If we want to use evidence, it would be best to consider all that is applicable looking for multiple independent corroboration. If one wants to look for "muttu" as pearl vs other meanings in tamil (and thus usage in tamil land) to see its applicability for muttusvamy or muttukumaraswamy, for a period of use that is as recent as 18th century, I think one needs to look at references in tamil literature that preceded it. Ignoring that seems like massive gaping hole IMO.
I already pointed one out earlier (kumaraguruparar), which appears to have been completely ignored . Here are some meanings for muttu in tamil with references in tamil literature: http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/p ... splay=utf8. The second one implies beauty which I believe is what applies to the deity here (muruga/shanmukha being referred to as the beautiful one is a very common reference in Tamil), and yes this word is marked as a derivation from mugdha, but also note that usage is as early as in nammAzhvAr's periya tiruvandAdi. That predates the timeline here by atleast a millenium.
(Yes it is still possible with the influence in music in Tamil land by telugu kings also translates to names, and thus MD was named muddusvamy as a telugu-name, and this along with Subbarama Dikshitar's reference may still prove strong to establish it, even if it is at odds with other evidence, but the other contradictory evidence is still present and still strong).
Arun
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
Apologies Arun, I did read and take into account your Kumaraguruparar reference! Is there any other reference to Muthu Kumara Swamy in Vaitheeswaran Koil prior to MD's time? Ala, pErAyiram paravi vAnOrEttum ... sung in praise of Vaidyanatha Swamy.
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
Mahesh - I dont know. A more diligent search may reveal the answer (I found this reference itself by googling , but I already knew about the tamil lexicon website)
BTW, in case people are interested, I believe (?) the text of muttukkumArasvAmi piLLai thamizh is here: http://www.valaitamil.com/srikumarakuru ... _3050.html (it is in tamil script though)
Arun
BTW, in case people are interested, I believe (?) the text of muttukkumArasvAmi piLLai thamizh is here: http://www.valaitamil.com/srikumarakuru ... _3050.html (it is in tamil script though)
Arun
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
Mahesh,
From wiki (as well the book from which it was drawn):
Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaitheeswaran_Koil (my emphasis below)
Of course, one could argue, even if the inscription (dated 11th-12th century) was in tamizh (this info i.e. that the inscription is in tamizh is in the book) and says muttukkumArsvAmi, why couldnt it have been pronounced muddu.... I would submit that the tamil lexicon references for the word muttu and its different connotations. And besides, this was during the period of cholas (i.e. not like the period during MD's birth when telugu did have a influence in music circles in some tamil-lands)
So this would be the current earliest reference to the name muttukumArasvAmi used in tamil land (here it doesnt refer to the deity though)
Correction: It appears NOT all inscriptions were around 11th-12th. Some I guess may be been 16th century. Not sure which is which.
Arun
From wiki (as well the book from which it was drawn):
Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaitheeswaran_Koil (my emphasis below)
The book i.e. reference [4] that the Wiki entry refers to is "South Indian Shrines: Illustrated - By P. V. Jagadisa Ayyar", and you can see the same content there (https://books.google.com/books?id=NLSGF ... an&f=false).Inscriptions
The shrine of Vinayagar near the temple tank
The temple has five inscriptions mainly belonging to the period of Kulothunga Chola I (1070-1120 CE).[5] The inscription on the steps of Subramanya shrine records the shutter of the sluice at Sattainathapuram measures 35 inches in length and 8 inches in breadth.[4] The one on the right of the temple tank indicates the tank, Nachiyar shrine, and its hall were completely renovated when Kanderayar was governing the Sigali Simai, and during the management of the temple by Muthukumaraswami Tambiran, a disciple of Sivagnanadesikar-Sambandar of the Dharmapuram Adheenam.[4] On the wall of the second precinct, the inscriptions state that the courtyard of Thayalnayagi shrine, the sacred steps and Tattisuri hall were built during Tamil year 4868 corresponding to 1689 CE.[4] On the floor near accountant's seat registers a deed granted by Sankarabaragiri Rengopanditar by Ambalavanatambiran, an agent of the temple.[4] The Easter gateway inscription indicates the gift of taxes from Manipallam in Tiruvalipparu.[4]
Of course, one could argue, even if the inscription (dated 11th-12th century) was in tamizh (this info i.e. that the inscription is in tamizh is in the book) and says muttukkumArsvAmi, why couldnt it have been pronounced muddu.... I would submit that the tamil lexicon references for the word muttu and its different connotations. And besides, this was during the period of cholas (i.e. not like the period during MD's birth when telugu did have a influence in music circles in some tamil-lands)
So this would be the current earliest reference to the name muttukumArasvAmi used in tamil land (here it doesnt refer to the deity though)
Correction: It appears NOT all inscriptions were around 11th-12th. Some I guess may be been 16th century. Not sure which is which.
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 05 Nov 2015, 00:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
Not to draw away, I wonder if muddu and muthu would have different spellings in Tamil (or other Dravida languages)?
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muddu vs muthu
In Tamil - no. In other dravidian languages - yes. In Tamil, the word muddu (as pronounced) doesnt exist (not also as an import also unlike many words imported). The word muttu (as pronounced) exist and has different connotations as indicated above - and one of them is most probably a cognate of telugu muddu as Keerthi indicated, and all the different usages are quite old as also indicated above.(much older than the specific time period in question - 18th century).
Again quite possible for a telugu based family in the tanjore delta area, or a family influenced by then prevailing times (e.g. during times when telugu had a significant presence), used "mudduswamy" and referred to the deity as muddukumArasvAmty. But as indicated above, in tamil usage (by tamil speaking folks) it would have been muttukumArasvAmy, and would have been a long time leading to this time period.
Arun
Again quite possible for a telugu based family in the tanjore delta area, or a family influenced by then prevailing times (e.g. during times when telugu had a significant presence), used "mudduswamy" and referred to the deity as muddukumArasvAmty. But as indicated above, in tamil usage (by tamil speaking folks) it would have been muttukumArasvAmy, and would have been a long time leading to this time period.
Arun
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
Mods - worth moving this away from TMK's concert review? Technical Discussion maybe? Pedants, aren't we?
And as an aside topic, this Dravida - Arya concept itself is questionable. Far back, there is Sanskrit and then there is Tamil. Both borrowed words from each other. There is or was no evidence of any other language other than off-shoots and regional variations.
And as an aside topic, this Dravida - Arya concept itself is questionable. Far back, there is Sanskrit and then there is Tamil. Both borrowed words from each other. There is or was no evidence of any other language other than off-shoots and regional variations.
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
@MaheshS
I used Dravida as to denote the south Indian as it has been used for a long time in Sanskrit. Sanskrit and Tamil are the only classical languages and everything else is a by-product.
I agree it's time to move on in this topic.
I used Dravida as to denote the south Indian as it has been used for a long time in Sanskrit. Sanskrit and Tamil are the only classical languages and everything else is a by-product.
I agree it's time to move on in this topic.
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar
minor correction - there are 6 classical languages in India - not only Tamil (apart from Sanskrit).pvs wrote:@MaheshS
Sanskrit and Tamil are the only classical languages and everything else is a by-product.
being a tamilian myself (from nellai), i used to think so too..however, reality is not that I guess.
- PP.
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar
What is meant is internationally recognised classical languages.
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar
@pperumal
Thanks you. allow me to rephrase:
Sanskrit and Tamil are the oldest classical languages (by a good length) and everything else borrows generously from the two.
Thanks you. allow me to rephrase:
Sanskrit and Tamil are the oldest classical languages (by a good length) and everything else borrows generously from the two.
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar
Just because the Central Government (under Manmohan Singh) declares a language to be a Classical Language to please a certain section of electorate doesn't make it so.pperumal wrote:minor correction - there are 6 classical languages in India - not only Tamil (apart from Sanskrit).pvs wrote:@MaheshS
Sanskrit and Tamil are the only classical languages and everything else is a by-product.
being a tamilian myself (from nellai), i used to think so too..however, reality is not that I guess.
- PP.
They may declare Urdu to be a Classical Language if they think it will get them the Muslim votes.
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar
Not to divert the topic even further and risk devolving into a "my language is older and hence better than your language", recorded evidence supports that e.g. Telugu, Kannada etc. has been around for a long time also. Simply stating "everything came from Sanskrit", or "everything else came from Tamil and Sanskrit", without linguistic evidence supporting that (since the statements have everything to do with linguistics) are IMO hollow claims
Arun
Arun
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar
Archaic Tamil words are commonly used in Telugu even today.arunk wrote:Not to divert the topic even further and risk devolving into a "my language is older and hence better than your language", recorded evidence supports that e.g. Telugu, Kannada etc. has been around for a long time also. Simply stating "everything came from Sanskrit", or "everything else came from Tamil and Sanskrit", without linguistic evidence supporting that (since the statements have everything to do with linguistics) are IMO hollow claims
Arun
You just need to look at the packets of milk distributed by the government milk cooperative. The name is "Aavin", meaning "from the cow" as "Aa" means "cow" though it is not in common use. In Telugu, it is "Aavu".
The word "cheppu" meaning "speak, say, talk, etc.," is not in use in Tamil anymore but is a common word in Telugu.
"Chaala" is very much a Tamil word though out of use but in Telugu it is in daily use. "Chaala bagunthi" would be the response if you ask someone how he is (unless of course he is a hypochondriac)!
One could go through a Telugu-Tamil dictionary and identify thousands of such words.
Linguists acknowledge that Telugu, Kannada, Tulu and Malayalam are offshoots of the Tamil language.
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar
Good attempt, but googling, I found that linguistically, it is not clear-cut. All that seems to be agreed is that Tamizh and Telugu are allied and possibly 'pangalis'. Tamizh is recognised as a classical language and not others (save Samskritham) because ancient classics in Tamizh have survived. Interestingly, Tamizh seems to be the only classical language that is lingua franca not only in Tamizh Nadu, but in some other pockets also. All this, however, does not provide horns to Tamizh speaking people. Kalidasa set aside the claim that old is gold.
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015
"BhajarE rE citta" in kalyAni on the Goddess at vaidya puri , has "rUpa muttu ( muddu) kumAra jananIm" line that people can look at various books (and pATantarams) to see how it is spelt.MaheshS wrote:Rao garu, wasn't it also because he went to Vaitheeswaran Koil and prayed for a boy in the shrine of Muruga there? Murugan is called Muthukumara Swamy in Vaitheeswaran Koil. This is also mentioned in Subarama Dikshitar's Vagyekara Charitham.
<<< I didn't notice that this has already been mentioned in previous posts !!>>
I remember Ranga Ramunaja Iyengar in his kriti maNi mAlai translation section noting - muttu (muddu) is not a samskrita word; tan peyarai ninaitapadi ezhutinAr pOlum! - i.e. he wrote it thinking his name!
And that is probably one of the few words Samskritam absorbed from other languages? muttAi kidaitta onru! (rare gem or pearl!) Murugan is a tamizh kadaVuL - his name cannot be translated into Samskrit
Last edited by shankarank on 08 Nov 2015, 23:16, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar
Now "kumAra" is also external according to Witzel!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substratu ... c_Sanskrit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substratu ... c_Sanskrit
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar
A piece of info. Today Nada Neerajanam (a programme by SVBC from Andhra Pradesh) telecast a special programme on Dikshithar krthis by Dr RV and Kuzhu. They had spelt 'Muthuswamy both in English and Telugu.
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar
However they spelt his name as Muthuswami dIkshitaar.
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar
Anything is fine.
So long as it is not Muchami!
So long as it is not Muchami!
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar
wedding reception dinner. the server Muthu is busy
-Annavukku “ razam “ -mysore “razam ΅ - then next:
-annavukku “aBBaLaam “ one more -äBBaLaam “
the chief cook who was watching and supervising shouted
-”daaye, Muthu, it is not aBBaLaam azhuthi solluda aPPaLaam “
Muthu replied : “azhuthinaal noRingi poydume anna “
-Annavukku “ razam “ -mysore “razam ΅ - then next:
-annavukku “aBBaLaam “ one more -äBBaLaam “
the chief cook who was watching and supervising shouted
-”daaye, Muthu, it is not aBBaLaam azhuthi solluda aPPaLaam “
Muthu replied : “azhuthinaal noRingi poydume anna “