Sanjay snubs TMK

vichu1947 · Post by **vichu1947** » 17 Dec 2015, 16:30

In case some have missed this video, Sanjay critizes TM Krishna not once, but twice

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxoqa3sjvug

- about singing varnam in the middle
- about "secular" music and writing articles in newspaper on secularism

ramamatya · Post by **ramamatya** » 17 Dec 2015, 16:51

Can you say at which timing, ie, minute(s) of the video?

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 17 Dec 2015, 17:34

I watched it a second time. Better to describe it as criticising these aspects rather than snubbing TMK.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 17 Dec 2015, 20:02

Reads like a Times Now Breaking News report...

Basically the headline does not care about the content or provide any illumination on the matter under discussion, instead focusing on the personalities / parties involved.

vichu1947 · Post by **vichu1947** » 17 Dec 2015, 20:38

Rsachi wrote:I watched it a second time. Better to describe it as criticising these aspects rather than snubbing TMK.

OK, if you prefer "criticize" over "snub", so be it.

If I had used "criticize", perhaps you would have said "observed"

We can keep playing with words till cows come home

The gist is that Sanjay has called TMK's bluff (well let us not get into another substitute idiom )

vichu1947 · Post by **vichu1947** » 17 Dec 2015, 20:41

sureshvv wrote:Reads like a Times Now Breaking News report...

Basically the headline does not care about the content or provide any illumination on the matter under discussion, instead focusing on the personalities / parties involved.

Oh, sorry, if you don't understand Tamil, then naturally you can't understand the contents.

Rsachi and I understood the content, just that we are differing on the word to use.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 17 Dec 2015, 22:04

I think it would be more constructive to discuss the "bluff" rather than who claimed it or who called it. Just naming personalities does not throw any light and is typical of how our media works.

vichu1947 · Post by **vichu1947** » 18 Dec 2015, 04:47

sureshvv wrote:I think it would be more constructive to discuss the "bluff" rather than who claimed it or who called it.

OK go ahead and discuss, who prevented you ?

sureshvv wrote: Just naming personalities does not throw any light and is typical of how our media works.

You are entitled to your opinion but I need not subscribe to it

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 18 Dec 2015, 12:49

Was hoping you will have the good sense to change the title to "Sanjay discusses kucheri format & secularism" or something like that. I was wrong.

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 18 Dec 2015, 13:22

It is unnecessary to interpret Sanjay's speech as snub to TMK.The speech should be understood in its spirit.I request moderator to remove the posting.

thaaye · Post by **thaaye** » 19 Dec 2015, 11:50

Yes, remove postings, ban people, shift to lounge, provoke simple-minded members, support only known members even if they unnecessarily attack, never support right opinions esp coming from anonymous handles ... this stifling, dictatorial forum laced with adhocism is really getting sick and boringly predictable. Its like an exclusive coterie of a chosen few - definitely not democratic. Sorry, I even bothered to open an account and try to interact.

I'm out, and like to delete my account. Mod, do let me know how.

Ciao.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 19 Dec 2015, 15:55

Yep. It's us and them here --- should be clear to you by know where the dividing line lies... In the same place as most of decent society.

Bye.

carnaticwriter · Post by **carnaticwriter** » 19 Dec 2015, 16:09

Bye thaaye. I understand how you feel. Though I haven't interacted much in here (but just watched from the sides), I find ppl trying to be politically correct at all times - needless sophistication and pointless chitchat. Anyone with a genuine thought is banned. Quite some 'intolerance' there. A general tide towards the NRIs and the people they respect. I'd like to quit too. Mods, pl delete my account with you too. Thanks.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 19 Dec 2015, 16:31

Why this drama about "delete my account" esp. with spurious throwaway handles ? Just stay away & see if anyone misses you.

Thanks to vichu for this thread

pattamaa · Post by **pattamaa** » 20 Dec 2015, 13:53

"thaaye" ezhyai pal dayayai seivaye !!

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 20 Dec 2015, 14:55

Sounds like the award returning stunt a few months ago.

What we ought to know on a small forum like this is that all the long timers here know each other in person at least to the point of personal emails and many know each other in person too. Hence the usual insensitivities and loose speech that anonymity generates doesn't hold good. Hence political correctness is very necessary. That has come as a surprise to more than one anonymous user.

If democracy is a refined way of saying "riots", then one may very well go to Youtube or the TOI comments section (especially do go see the TOI and behold to what depths of depravity a totally free "democrazy" can stoop to.)

In a thread on the statistics of the posters on the forum I had used the numbers to conclude that certain kinds of users won't last long in terms of how many posts they will contribute.

In the future i might extend it to the number of users complaining about free speech with a stat count of the types of posts they've done, but even without the numbers i can tell you that nearly all those who complain are complaining because they are unable to fully use anonymity for indulging in loose speech.

ramamatya · Post by **ramamatya** » 21 Dec 2015, 08:18

chalamelara o' rama

vallknowme · Post by **vallknowme** » 21 Dec 2015, 11:08

Title can be changed to -- 'Sanjay discusses funambulists ...

@7:59

vichu1947 · Post by **vichu1947** » 21 Dec 2015, 12:13

friends

there is a debate going on in India on raising intolerance. That is most applicable in this forum.

I did not do any name calling. I did not make any personal attack. I dd not use offensive words. I thought Sanjay's views are a snub to TMK. That is my opinion and I am entitled to mine.

This is supposed to be a democratic forum . Others can not dictate what word I should use as long the word that I used is parliamentary. Snub is not an un-parliamentary word by any stretch of imagination

If there are any TMK bhakthas in this form who are offended, I can not help it.

I stick to the word snub. That is my interpretation of the video. I need not sugar coat it to please others

Perhaps I should have said "Sanjay double snubs TMK" as he had snubbed on two aspects.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 21 Dec 2015, 14:29

I really do not mind who says snub, hate, or whatever they wish to express, as long as they do not do so with the venom that some now-departed members brought to this forum. Let us talk freely, as among friends, because that, at least to some extent is what we are.

Let us avoid "political correctness," which, to my mind means having the same old feelings, but simply censoring the words for form's sake. Politcal correctness, as most things political, is just superficial: I can't say that because I'm not allowed to.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 21 Dec 2015, 15:41

I was only amused by the headline. The video itself has already gone through the rounds here under other more relevant topics. Sanjay's observations was with respect to some inaccurate views floating around and did not name anyone in particular who propagated (or not) those views.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 21 Dec 2015, 16:57

The video was posted in the forum before, and I don't think it was a criticism of TMK, it was just Sanjay's personal opinion.

Singing varnam in the middle - You can also say he was snubbing KVN, as he used to sing Suma Sakhaya [Swati Thirunal, Kapi pada varnam], in the middle of the concert ...

"Secular" music and writing articles in newspaper on secularism - While people might not have *written* in newspapers, if you look at pre-independance days, *most* people did this, so is this a snub by Sanjay to DKP? Papanasam Sivam? People who sang Pallavi's on Mahatma Gandhi, like MMI?

vichu1947 · Post by **vichu1947** » 21 Dec 2015, 18:59

MaheshS wrote:The video was posted in the forum before, and I don't think it was a criticism of TMK, it was just Sanjay's personal opinion.

you are entiled to your opinion as I am entitled to mine

MaheshS wrote: "Secular" music and writing articles in newspaper on secularism - While people might not have *written* in newspapers, if you look at pre-independance days, *most* people did this, so is this a snub by Sanjay to DKP? Papanasam Sivam? People who sang Pallavi's on Mahatma Gandhi, like MMI?

Well tried. By putting the word written inside quotes, you have not conveyed or proved anything

8 mins 39 secs : "people are talking about secular music, it has been done in those days itself" . The meaning is clear. This is not a recent innovation as claimed by someone. It was done in those days itself

8 mins 50 secs: "no need to write any articles in paper on secular music" . DKP, Sivan, MMI did not write articles in newspaper on secular music

You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.

- Abraham Lincoln

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 21 Dec 2015, 19:04

'Snub' is not what it is, as some of us seem to agree in posts above.

Sanjay, like many of his contemporaries differs from TMK in the way a concert should be presented. He adheres to the tradition of the cachEri format of ARI which evolved from an older tradition--something which made it a distant thing for common listeners like us, staying in royal courts and parlors of rich landowners.

The format appealed to artistes and listeners alike and took root, and in turn became a new tradition.
If an artiste says he prefers it to the old ways, it doesn't necessarily mean he's snubbing another musician who practices it

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 21 Dec 2015, 19:12

Yes, it's also rasikAs' doing--pitting one artiste against another (in our minds, alas) and creating some (imaginary) rivalry among them

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 21 Dec 2015, 19:15

vichu1947 wrote:
MaheshS wrote:The video was posted in the forum before, and I don't think it was a criticism of TMK, it was just Sanjay's personal opinion.
you are entiled to your opinion as I am entitled to mine

MaheshS wrote: "Secular" music and writing articles in newspaper on secularism - While people might not have *written* in newspapers, if you look at pre-independance days, *most* people did this, so is this a snub by Sanjay to DKP? Papanasam Sivam? People who sang Pallavi's on Mahatma Gandhi, like MMI?
Well tried. By putting the word written inside quotes, you have not conveyed or proved anything

8 mins 39 secs : "people are talking about secular music, it has been done in those days itself" . The meaning is clear. This is not a recent innovation as claimed by someone. It was done in those days itself

8 mins 50 secs: "no need to write any articles in paper on secular music" . DKP, Sivan, MMI did not write articles in newspaper on secular music

You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.

- Abraham Lincoln

OK, where does he explicitly say he is aiming his comments at TMK? Do you have any inside information that Sanjay had TMK in mind when he made the speech? If not, it's just an opinion of yours, which I have *no* intention to prove or disprove, afterall you are entitled to yours and I to mine.

Who claimed that this was a recent innovation? Do you have any links / articles / videos?
What about Suma Sakhya - Kapi varnam in the middle which you have not addressed?

If you are anti-TMK, fine, plenty of those on this board, however why are you dragging Sanjay's speech into this? If you don't have inside information that Sanjay did have TMK in mind, then I completely understand why people are against the topic name.

Sanjay DID NOT snub TMK. You *THINK* Sanjay snubbed TMK. See the difference?

devan · Post by **devan** » 21 Dec 2015, 19:19

sanjay snubs gayathri,gowriramnarayan,geethamadahavan.he makes it a habit to snub sombody on a daily basis in his summing up in lecdem session at the academy.i do not know who is going to snub the sangeetha kalanidhi.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 21 Dec 2015, 20:49

All right, take a deep breath fans, and relax. I think our tempers are getting too heated over this, and it won't make any difference except a lot of bad blood at the end of the day. Is it worth it?

Getting offended is an exhausting pastime and we Indians (sorry to say it) are way more reactive than proactive and are rather incapable of the art of "ignoring is bliss". Level headed is a rare virtue for many of us

.

All I can say is, that when you take multiple digs at the world, expect a few in return.

What he really means to say is that the Alathur brothers brought a special standard in their renditions of varnams. What he exactly says is that these days there are people who say that varnams have to be sung in the main item because they get treated as a mere warm up or an afterthought to be done with, but they would not complain when they hear the way the Alathoor Brothers handled their renditions of varnams.

The second one could be a dig at the entire media system as such....

There is nothing to be so seriously upset about. I don't see it as anything malicious at all, after all Sanjay even takes a dig at himself at one point (so that question is also answered I guess

). He says that the Alathoor brothers duet singing enhanced the rendition to such an extent, it gave other musicians the idea of this thing called 'vocal support" by bringing a disciple or two along for the ride, hoping it will improve the renditions of their items

, and he has also brought a student along accordingly.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 21 Dec 2015, 20:52

Now it seems as though the traditional word 'snub' needs to be entered in dictionaries, with more than one modern meaning

Srinath,
Our posts crossed

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 21 Dec 2015, 21:17

@arasi, Snub : A word describing an act, which when characterized as such, gives the sides of the fanbase who believes that it involves them at a deep and personal level, the 10th and 11th fundamental rights -- the rights to offend and to be offended.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 21 Dec 2015, 21:46

Sanjay did not snub Gowri Ramnarayan... He set the record straight and she conceded.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 21 Dec 2015, 22:03

sureshvv wrote:Sanjay did not snub Gowri Ramnarayan... He set the record straight and she conceded.

What was wrong and how did he correct it?

vichu1947 · Post by **vichu1947** » 21 Dec 2015, 22:37

MaheshS wrote: OK, where does he explicitly say he is aiming his comments at TMK? Do you have any inside information that Sanjay had TMK in mind when he made the speech? If not, it's just an opinion of yours, which I have *no* intention to prove or disprove, afterall you are entitled to yours and I to mine.

Oh, you expect Sanjay to make a declaration that his remarks are against TMK ? Will anyone do that directly ? Even hardcore politicians sometimes take a dig at opponents without naming. And you expect a leading carnatic singer to make an explicit statement against a fellow singer ? Either you are too naive or ......Anyway.

MaheshS wrote: Do you have any inside information that Sanjay had TMK in mind when he made the speech?

oh! you need juicy gossips ? I am not for it.
Ok assume , I say that I have some inside information . What will be your line of argument ? Will you next say , "tell me who told you" ? And you expect that I will tell who it is in open forum? Wake up.

MaheshS wrote: Sanjay DID NOT snub TMK.

OK fine, your opinion . Have it.
Writing some words in capital letters will not make your opinion the gospel

You are entitled to yours and I am entailed to mine

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 22 Dec 2015, 00:09

arasi wrote:Yes, it's also rasikAs' doing--pitting one artiste against another (in our minds, alas) and creating some (imaginary) rivalry among them

That's why you should feel a sigh of relief when somebody like me pits myself against all of them

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 22 Dec 2015, 01:09

vichu1947 wrote:
MaheshS wrote: OK, where does he explicitly say he is aiming his comments at TMK? Do you have any inside information that Sanjay had TMK in mind when he made the speech? If not, it's just an opinion of yours, which I have *no* intention to prove or disprove, afterall you are entitled to yours and I to mine.
Oh, you expect Sanjay to make a declaration that his remarks are against TMK ? Will anyone do that directly ? Even hardcore politicians sometimes take a dig at opponents without naming. And you expect a leading carnatic singer to make an explicit statement against a fellow singer ? Either you are too naive or ......Anyway.

MaheshS wrote: Do you have any inside information that Sanjay had TMK in mind when he made the speech?
oh! you need juicy gossips ? I am not for it.
Ok assume , I say that I have some inside information . What will be your line of argument ? Will you next say , "tell me who told you" ? And you expect that I will tell who it is in open forum? Wake up.

MaheshS wrote: Sanjay DID NOT snub TMK.
OK fine, your opinion . Have it.
Writing some words in capital letters will not make your opinion the gospel

You are entitled to yours and I am entailed to mine

So you picked one para of what I wrote, and said that Sanjay can't expected to do that, and it's for people to know what he means. Then you picked a sentecnce from that and said I am looking for gossip. Then you conviniently ignore the rest of the post / points I made, like Kapi varnam by KVN in ther middle of the concert.

And then you say I am entitled to my opinion.

Your RABBIT does have THREE legs OK? It's whatever you say. It's your opinion therefore the truth. Sorry I missed that lesson.

For these once a year or occasional people who come here to get offended on purpose or think they are here to purify and enlighten us all .... we need a "thalele adichukaradhu" icon / gif in the ironic bhramin way. Siva siva. Rama Rama.

vallknowme · Post by **vallknowme** » 22 Dec 2015, 06:51

'sanjay snubs tmk'...and you put a youtube link... we open it and find nothing.

ramamatya · Post by **ramamatya** » 22 Dec 2015, 09:25

Kudos to you, vichu1947 for defending your opinion so very well ! It sounds very reasonable to me.

My two cents: It is not worth it, that is, opening a thread, having an opinion and defending all by oneself from countless attacks of this exclusive club of blood-thirsty hounds is NOT really WORTH it. The members here just put on the garb of refinement and finesse. In short, a touch of savoir faire - that’s about it. So, don’t waste your time and energy !

vallknowme · Post by **vallknowme** » 22 Dec 2015, 09:47

blood-thirsty hounds! nadunisi naigal! sabash!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 22 Dec 2015, 10:36

Velikki oNAn sAkshi or something like that

margazhi · Post by **margazhi** » 22 Dec 2015, 13:29

vallknowme wrote:blood-thirsty hounds! nadunisi naigal! sabash!

Add to this vetti pack, a don-quixote-like English gentleman, and you have the complete guild

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 22 Dec 2015, 14:19

Was it a snub? Was it Sanjay? Was it TMK? Does anybody care anyway?

Confused? You will be... Watch this week's episode of rasikas

thanjavooran · Post by **thanjavooran** » 22 Dec 2015, 15:10

There is contradiction and counter in every message/statement. IMO Best solution ' simply ignore ' to avoid waste of time and energy.
Thanjavooran
22 12 2015

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 22 Dec 2015, 19:37

margazhi wrote:
vallknowme wrote:blood-thirsty hounds! nadunisi naigal! sabash!
Add to this vetti pack, a don-quixote-like English gentleman, and you have the complete guild

ramamatya wrote:Kudos to you, vichu1947 for defending your opinion so very well ! It sounds very reasonable to me.

My two cents: It is not worth it, that is, opening a thread, having an opinion and defending all by oneself from countless attacks of this exclusive club of blood-thirsty hounds is NOT really WORTH it. The members here just put on the garb of refinement and finesse. In short, a touch of savoir faire - that’s about it. So, don’t waste your time and energy !

The pair of you only signed up only a few days ago, us vettis [including the English gentleman] and blood thirsty hounds have been here for years. So please let us know your wisdom as we may have been missing wood for the trees. And ofcourse your opinions which is the truth, and nothing but. Did Sanjay come in your dreams as Maha Vishnu and tell you the truth behind the speech in which he meant only TMK and this universal truth has to be spread by you to the vettis and hounds? Did he have the sangu and chakra? Did you see the lotus on which Bramha sits which emanates from his navel?Was Mahalakshmi there? Did Ananta give you some of his venom to purify us devils? Ohh please do let us know.

We are NOT WORTH it, but I hope you show the benevolence and forget our mistakes and take us to Vaikuntam.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 22 Dec 2015, 20:31

@MaheshS, For once sir, I think you are taking this a little too seriously. It's not doing anything but prolonging what makes for painful reading.

@NickH -- I couldn't have put it better myself. Maybe whenever TMK comes up, we should just say "And so on today's edition of The Rasikas Tabloid".

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 27 Dec 2015, 12:46

Today's panel discussion at the morning academic session was on technology and its use in music.

Sanjay summed it up by saying when you had cassettes you had to go sequentially from song 1 to 2, to 3, etc. Then came the CD and you could choose to listen to tracks at random. One gentleman who was playing a CD in his car -- he was somewhat behind the technology curve -- demurred when Sanjay asked him for a track from the CD. He seems to have said it can only be played sequentially.

Now comes the iPod with the 'shuffle' mode so now you can hear the 9th song first, 7th song next, etc. in fact some musicians seem to do it in their concerts. So long as the musician is in his comfort zone, there is nothing wrong with it.

Wonder who the musician(s) may be!

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 27 Dec 2015, 14:53

Harimau, That is great news that you overcame your resolve and attended a panel discussion this season!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 27 Dec 2015, 17:59

But... did he get snubbed?

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 27 Dec 2015, 23:24

kvchellappa wrote:Harimau, That is great news that you overcame your resolve and attended a panel discussion this season!

A request from a friend abroad who said that she was a fan of the tup-tup artist and was happy that he was selected for the SK but was deeply disappointed by his speech on opening day, and would I attend a session and report on how the session is summed up.

I ended up choosing inadvertently the one session where the comments seemed to be aimed at exactly one Carnatic musician. The underlying venom in the summing up was unmistakeable.

At least TMK was quite gracious in his written comment about this year's selection, going so far as to say the award honours itself rather than honouring Sanjay as it was meant to.

A few years back, when a musician in his 70s was awarded the SK, the comment was that if one lives long enough one gets all sorts of awards. Receiving the SK at age 47 ought to swell the head of the recipient several sizes, believing that he actually deserves it more than all earlier recipients.

Go ahead and believe the propaganda put out by the court jester (vidhushaka). I know better than to do that.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 28 Dec 2015, 06:46

I really wonder why you have not joined politics!
You know to make a statement, go back on it and offer a pretext.
You know to twist facts to suit your prejudice.
The right ingredients that qualify one to wallow in politics.
Facts are:
Sanjay's speech was engaging and rang true to his person.
He has shown modesty with confidence (caution with aggression).
He has shown respect to the greats of yesteryears and admitted that he draws ideas from them.
He has dedicated the award to all the greats.
He criticizes the other musician at every turn, and there is no doubt who he is referring to. Both what the other musician does and what this one does are in public gaze.
Sanjay is a thorough professional and candid. Those who like him have done their home work.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 28 Dec 2015, 10:15

kvchellappa wrote: He criticizes the other musician at every turn, and there is no doubt who he is referring to. Both what the other musician does and what this one does are in public gaze.

It is clearly not personal and only certain "antics" are criticized. If it was not apparent before, it is clear now that harimau carries some deep seated resentment and tup tup and dugu dugu have nothing to do with it,