Gautam Tejas Ganeshan - Mar. 13, 2016 in Berkeley, CA, USA [VIDEO]

GautamTejasGaneshan · Post by **GautamTejasGaneshan** » 21 Mar 2016, 04:07

Gautam Tejas Ganeshan - song
Mohan Rangan Govindaraj - bamboo flute
Gopal Ravindhran - mridangam
Ella Milliken Detro - tambura

https://vimeo.com/channels/gautamtejasg ... /159681734

venusishya · Post by **venusishya** » 22 Mar 2016, 05:30

I appreciate your efforts, but I do not know why you wish to change the meaningful and deep lyrics by our great composers to english...

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 22 Mar 2016, 09:32

but I do not know why you wish to change the meaningful and deep lyrics by our great composers

would this be acceptable ?

http://www.mediafire.com/download/ffl9e ... Amayya.mp3

and for those who think that it is the telugu lyric that aways suffers...
https://www.mediafire.com/?s4e80jqdfd6kkks
A soft call to ones own consciousness morphing into " what the heck....

"

GautamTejasGaneshan · Post by **GautamTejasGaneshan** » 23 Mar 2016, 04:06

@venusishya:

Thanks for your appreciation despite your reservations,
and likewise I appreciate the comment.

So, I'm not "changing" lyrics to English, by the way.

Whatever is "meaningful and deep,"
let it remain for all time - certainly.

I'm comfortable claiming at least a bit of "meaning and depth" in my songs as well,
although I would not begin to compare my very small accomplishments to anybody else.

I might ask - have you taken the time to try and see what some of my songs say?

After all, this conversation itself is happening in English,
implying some tacit acceptance of the value of that language,
at least to certain ends!

- G

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 23 Mar 2016, 22:02

I listened to the first song, much as I tried to concentrate on the English lyrics, my mind was singing Evarani

Overall it was nice, however there are some parts [inevitable I suppose] where the "English" shows itself and to me that sounds like an anomoly ...

I will try and catch up with the rest of the video during the Easter break, are all your songs based on established [in vogue] carnatic songs?

It might also help if you also post the lyrics. Thanks!

:: Edited :: I just heard Varsha Ji's upload in Karakarapriya. Same feeling

Maybe the Indian languages and carnatic music itself blends itself better than say for example English? Language specialists can probably elaborate further with word formations, emphasis on letters etc etc.

:: Side note :: Years ago, mid/ late 90's Neyveli Santhagopalan translated some of Thyagaraja Swami krithis. I was with him when we went to see Semmangudi mama and by coincidence he demo'ed his Tamil version of Chakani Raja in Karakarapriya, and while Semmangudi mama appreciated[?] the effort [you can never know one way or the other with his typical Tanjavoor Brahminical humour / sarcasm] he also said, why? Leave that alone. If you want to compose a Tamil song in Karakarapriya, feel free but don't do this to Swami's krithis*. And I think Neyveli abandoned the idea.

Mama's words in Tamil were along the lines of, besha pannikoyen, yaru unnaya thaduka pora, swami kirthanaya vittuden. Avar enna pavam pannar?

GautamTejasGaneshan · Post by **GautamTejasGaneshan** » 23 Mar 2016, 23:27

@MaheshS

First, yes - I have posted the lyrics to 67 songs on my website:
http://gautamtejasganeshan.com/songbook.html

And, the first 40 were published in a book printed at the Berkeley Art Museum:
http://oskicat.berkeley.edu/record=b22112963~S1

Feedback like yours is very welcome to me.

Here are a few different responses, by no means exhausting the topic(s):

- These aren't translations. (Unlike the Neyveli S. story, I believe.)

- A concept very close to my process is "contrafactum," which was brought to my attention by mridangist Rohan Krishnamurthy, and which is (as Wikipedia attests) ""the substitution of one text for another without substantial change to the music." It's a time honored practice, especially used in sacred music where a musical culture spans multiple language groups. (Sound familiar?)

- From time to time I attempt writing from scratch. A few different types of things give me pause.

1. Thus far I cannot match Dikshitar for depth, not even close. Dunno if it will happen in this janmam at all. Likely not. His songs are too good, too rich in musical content.

2. In singing "new" music (which is not what I would say I'm doing), I would be sacrificing a very rich culture of sam geetham, or at least attenuating it. That is, being in concert. As you note, @MaheshS, these correlate to "in vogue" songs, meaning my fellow musicians can bring to bear their customary comfort and substance, which serves the goal of good music.

3. Manodharma is an adequate avenue for whatever I have to offer purely musically that is worthy or even unique. (Thus far, not much. Working on it - hard. I'm either a late bloomer, or I'm putting in the work for next lifetime.)

4. What I do also serves an homage function. It's a great way for me myself to learn the originals, and pay respect to them. It should be pretty evident to most of you rasikas.org folks, in watching what I do (I've posted nearly 40 complete concert films on VIMEO), that I care very much for precision in prosody, prasam, etc.

Let me tell you a story.

Once there were a bunch of peaceful sadhus in an ashram ensconced deeply in the forest. Nearby also lived a solitary native forest dwelling man. He viewed their ashram as an encroachment, and resented their practices. Every day they conducted their daily pujas, paying obeisances to a humble Shiva lingam that they had established in the central ashram courtyard. And every evening, after they had retired, this man would come and deliberately kick this lingam down, in a show of discontent. Then, in the morning, they would restore it before carrying on their prayers. This went on for years. Then, one year the monsoon was unusually fierce. El Niño or something. The gentle sadhus could not bear it, unfortunately, and finally decided they must leave their ashram for their own safety. However, our forest man knew no other home, and remained. And although the sadhus had left, still every night, despite treacherous stormy conditions, he would go and kick the Shiva lingam, so determined was he to show his disrespect. Well, in due time all of these people met their mortal ends and all appeared before Shiva himself. And lo and behold, Shiva reported that although the sadhus were fairly devoted in their practice, none could match the absolute unswerving dedication of the forest man who, whatever his ritual was, carried it out diligently until his last day, come hell or high water!

So the point is, everybody has his own way of showing that they care.

- G

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 23 Mar 2016, 23:33

MaheshS wrote: :: Side note :: Years ago, mid/ late 90's Neyveli Santhagopalan translated some of Thyagaraja Swami krithis. I was with him when we went to see Semmangudi mama and by coincidence he demo'ed his Tamil version of Chakani Raja in Karakarapriya, and while Semmangudi mama appreciated[?] the effort [you can never know one way or the other with his typical Tanjavoor Brahminical humour / sarcasm] he also said, why? Leave that alone. If you want to compose a Tamil song in Karakarapriya, feel free but don't do this to Swami's krithis*. And I think Neyveli abandoned the idea.

I guess Sri BMK did not get Sri SSI's comments before he translated and presented a bunch of the Saint's compositions in tamizh (e.g., SrI gaNapatini - Sri gaNapatiyai sEvittiDuvOm vArIr; nannu pAlimpa - yennai kAttaruLa naDandu vandAyO, etc.)

HarishankarK · Post by **HarishankarK** » 24 Mar 2016, 08:49

IMHO English words do not sound good in the Carnatic tune. And I couldn't get the words even. There is no bhakthi anyways so I found it disturbing.

Late Vidushi Suguna Purshottaman did some work on converting Telugu javalis and padams (?) into tamil. I know that there is a composition Venu ganam tenaai inikkidhu in Kanada is exactly along the tune of Vaani Pondu Chalu vaddane.

Most of us would know that Papanasam Sivan had tuned some of his krithis exactly in the tune of some Thyagrajar krithis e.g. Raghu Nayaka (Karunai Sevai).

I find it weird that anyone can reuse a popular tune and sing their own song out of it. I feel this should not be allowed. In Bollywood there is some protocol of seeking permission from original composer of the tune or paying a price to reuse the song in Hindi films (Anu Malik was known as copy Malik because most of his tunes would be flipped from English or other languages).

ram1999 · Post by **ram1999** » 24 Mar 2016, 10:48

This is akin to "Velai illada ambattan poonayayai sarachanam"

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 24 Mar 2016, 10:49

Gautam
I just listened to only one song of yours in khp

Few pluses
----------
# I think you sing with passion and not interested in diluting like a bhajan or a tv show . There are many whom I heard where they focus on getting the moonu suzhi nA instead of rendu suzhi nA but musically there is no manodharmam and charge . You certainly have the charge and i immensely like you there.

# You may bring those who dont know any of the indian languages and evangelize Carnatic Music in English. Atleast i can attest that you are not like the christian evangelist who bring CM only to eventually convert hindus .

# you are not interested in calling all your friends like tromborne from Harvard , keyboard friend from UCLA etc and converting as a fusion tamasha and put as a tribute to mandolin srinivas and have 4 vidwans /vidushis sitting in a stage and sing kAtrinilE varum geetham in english

Few Minuses
---------------
# San jose bay area is the land of crazy things and land of creativity with only informal setting. Why the hell are you wearing the tie and singing - you are in the valley ???Possibly without the tie and you singing KHP you may get close to SSI

# I think irrespective of language that you sing , the two prerequistes are mrudangam and violin. With flute i only get discrete discontinuity. Without violin you are already lost half the battle. I am atleast happy that you did not have a keyboard/Harmonium and a keypad drums.

# As maheshs said the indian language is interlinked with music - but hey anything other than telugu, sanskrit, tamil,kannada , malayalam is a failing case just like flute accompanying vocal concert. But give me some time to get away from the mindset.

Can you pass any concert where you have violin and mrudangam only??

Overall like your throw but give me some time to say mediocre to good to very good to excellent to outstanding .

GautamTejasGaneshan · Post by **GautamTejasGaneshan** » 24 Mar 2016, 12:57

So many great comments!

Especially from @rajeshnat.

I don't have time right this minute to reply to all, but here's a start:

@HarishankarK:

"There is no bhakthi."

I disagree totally.

"I couldn't get the words even."

Many factors here. One is that singing is not oration - different aims. It's common not to grasp the words of a song straightaway. Whether you want to or not is another question. Another factor is my variable success in the delivery of literal meanings. CM overall has mixed success in conveying texts, of course - usually music itself takes precedence, perhaps increasingly so nowadays. I can do a better job than this, no doubt. Working on it. There's also the issue of accent, even within English. Maybe Americans, who natively speak the language I do (American English - which is not your "thaay mozhi," I assume) would have an easier time understanding me.

- In one breath you mention Papanasam Sivan tuning his krithis in "exactly" the mold of Thyagarajar krithis, and in the next breath you say you "find it weird." So, is what you find "weird" only my songs, or Papanasam Sivan's too?

- English words not sounding good with Carnatic inflected melodies is an interesting point. Can't go into depth right now, but no doubt it poses unprecedented artistic challenges which I find interesting. For instance I have a song (curiously enough, taking as inspiration a song of Papanasam Sivan's) whose climactic phrase occurs on the word "forever", whose pronunciation in American English has pretty much the Tamil "zh" sound. Well, I don't know about you, but nobody taught me how to do "zh-kaaram." But it's an interesting practice to put the body-as-instrument through.

@rajeshnat:

- LOL - the tie is an indiscretion. Speaking of Silicon Valley ethos, "fail early, fail often." Applies to my fashion sense. It's the American equivalent of a vibhuti stencil. Leave it at that. I wore a monk's robe to my wedding and pissed off my mom too. Artists are weird. Easy to armchair comment. Let's see what you wear in your concert videos!

- My goal is absolutely not evangelizing, although I recognize the potential for connection. My goal is personal authenticity. I have things to say. And, singing songs that say other things instead puts a ceiling on the sincerity of a performance. I don't doubt that Thyagaraja believed strongly in his messages, and it shows, but I'd like to see you guys convince me that today's CM performers believe the same messages with the same strength. I think, rather, that music itself has mostly carried the day. In fact, contrary to @HarishankarK's insinuation, I think I probably experience more bhakthi, in the moment of performance, than your average CM singer, who is reciting orthodox material.

I mean what I sing, and I'm sure of it.

- Ayyo, you mention trombone, well there's a dhrupad trombone player, and I arranged his concert a few years back. I've arranged 400+ concerts of ICM, about half were CM, and all were strictly acoustic - that is, nothing plugged in, at all. At the beginning I grudgingly allowed electronic tamburas, but eventually I decided these were a bane, and banned them, meaning practically that I had to undertake the maintenance and provision of real tamburas and players for weekly concerts. It was worth it. And also, singers having to learn to deal with real mridangam, instead of "tapping baby's bottom" style mridangam, which is total BS. Of all deteriorations in CM, mridangam is the worst. Second is voice culture.

- I have posted nearly 40 full concert videos on VIMEO, @rajeshnat. Most have violin. You've got some watching to do.

Of your options ("mediocre, good, very good, excellent, outstanding"), I would confidently identify as "mediocre." Maybe my filmmaking is "good," taste is "very good," and actually where I take credit is that my songs themselves are "outstanding".

I've just got to get the vahana into better shape to obviate a lot of these comments!

- G

ram1999 · Post by **ram1999** » 24 Mar 2016, 20:26

Complete mockery

GautamTejasGaneshan · Post by **GautamTejasGaneshan** » 24 Mar 2016, 20:28

ram1999 wrote:Complete mockery

Care to elaborate?

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 25 Mar 2016, 05:16

GautamTejasGaneshan wrote:@MaheshS

First, yes - I have posted the lyrics to 67 songs on my website:
http://gautamtejasganeshan.com/songbook.html

And, the first 40 were published in a book printed at the Berkeley Art Museum:
http://oskicat.berkeley.edu/record=b22112963~S1

Gautam, I am finding it really hard to go thro embedded document with lyrics. I can figure it's Evarani but can't match it with lyrics ...Can you post the song list - lyrics for the above concert please? Thanks!

And wearing a monk outfit for wedding, were you making a joke / point or rebelling? How did the Mrs react? Unless you planned it together

GautamTejasGaneshan · Post by **GautamTejasGaneshan** » 25 Mar 2016, 06:40

@MaheshS:

Yes, I haven't found a good way (other than sinking a lot of time that I don't have) to establish cross-links between recordings and texts.

Another thing is, in the end this concert was only "wokay", especially at first!
The varali alapana a bit further in was a decent showing, perhaps.

So yeah, the document solution on my website currently is crap - sorry.
Will update someday. Meanwhile more work keeps getting generated...

As for the monk robe - no, it wasn't a joke or rebelling. It's more of a story than I wish to recount here, but I'll say this for the benefit of you rasikas.org folks: we had two functions, and this crowd would probably be thrilled to know I wore proper veshti when it counted. The monk robe was bespoke, and made from color-grown cotton. (Look it up.) Anyway there's more to it, but it certainly was NOT well-taken by my mother. Five years down the road though, it has at least resulted in a well-worn story.

Here's one of the song texts - somehow appropriate for this conversation.
(My rendition of this in this concert is super meh though, unf.):

--

No one but me knows nothing that I do
is even remotely good enough for you.

So what if it falls short? I'll sing anyway!
Since no one pays any heed to what I say.

What good is your attention,
washed up on my incomprehension
of even what elementary measures
should be taken, for goodness sake?

I still may be the best singer here!
No one can second guess whether my song is sincere.

--

- G

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 25 Mar 2016, 09:30

GautamTejasGaneshan wrote: And in fact I gave two years of concerts with no words at all, as a case in point.

Gautam
Were you an instrumentalist for those 2 years . or did you only sing raagam and taanam as a vocalist . Can you elaborate i did not get you???

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 25 Mar 2016, 12:44

Gautam,

My first reaction was to be startled at your song. Then I noticed you were wearing shoes with your conservative clothing. It seemed to clash with a cm concert, but perfectly fine if I thought you were just sitting around to sing. Then I realized your lyrics were not translations, but words of your own. I thought they were nonsensical at first and then came to figure that they might have some depth to it, and that I could be missing something because I just couldn't figure that kind of delivery in English. I still do think the language does not go well with the music.

If you think an American can catch your lyrics, I would love to see an example of that, not as a challenge, but to know whether it is my shortcoming as a Tamilian or if it is a problem with your prosody. Would you have someone listen and tell what the lyrics are?

I'm so surprised that the full force of our purists hasn't come down on you (yet?)!! You've been lucky

. (No disrespect to purism intended here.)

I like your classical style of rendering.

I wasn't too judgemental, just a bit, but on reading you, I find you crazy, irreverent, and funny. I guess your mom would have tried hard to stuff you into a square box and if she was smart, she gave up. I believe you got her to laugh a bit. Keep writing, thinking, and having fun with CM as you will. Wishing you success (in getting it the way you want).

Good luck.

GautamTejasGaneshan · Post by **GautamTejasGaneshan** » 25 Mar 2016, 20:18

@Ranganayaki:

What a bout of honesty & thoughtfulness in your comments!

Ranganayaki wrote: If you think an American can catch your lyrics, I would love to see an example of that, not as a challenge, but to know whether it is my shortcoming as a Tamilian or if it is a problem with your prosody. Would you have someone listen and tell what the lyrics are?

It has happened. My wife thinks the best way to listen to my songs is with no pakkavadyam at all. But, primarily the onus is on me. I don't think I do a good enough job conveying the meanings of the songs in the moment. And I repeat, the onus is on me, but I would also point out that CM as it exists today does not set a very high bar here - if you didn't already know the songs, you'd have a hard time understanding many singers, not just me, and not just English.

Nonetheless, challenge accepted. I'll try and sing for Donald Trump and see if he understands, how about that? Can't get more American, in one (unfortunate) sense. Or actually maybe I should take my cues from Bernie Sanders. I dunno if "yooj" is in any of my songs yet - writing it in somewhere is another challenge to accept, I suppose. (Actually this is in jest - I don't accept any influences whatever in subject matter.)

Ranganayaki wrote: I like your classical style of rendering.

I'm so surprised that the full force of our purists hasn't come down on you...

Contradiction!

Yes, I do have a classical style of rendering. And here's the thing about purists - I'm one of them, maybe the staunchest! I'm so pure I can't bear to sing a song if there is even one shred of duplicity. For example, suppose I haven't been to some temple, how can I sing its song honestly? Or suppose I did go and instead of getting good vibes, somehow on that day my darshan was a flop? It happens, be honest! (For more of this sort of thing, you can listen to some of my dozen radio interviews over the years, or at least read the summaries. With some scrolling you can even find my outing on kanjira in the Zakir Hussain one: http://gautamtejasganeshan.com/interviews.html)

So I suppose now I've given further fodder for this "irreverent" label you put on me. One of my mentors wrote the book on reverence. Literally. "Reverence: Renewing a forgotten virtue." I think what you mean by "irreverence" is that I refuse allegiance to shibboleths. In fact, I aim to be quite reverent, but only of what is worth my reverence. Semantics though. (The proof of the pudding is in the taste.)

Furthermore, I inoculate myself against would-be purists through utter sincerity in my songs. Earlier in this thread @HarishankarK tried to say my songs had "no bhakthi." In this statement, he exposes his prejudice. I conclude that he simply thinks, on face, "English? Must be spiritually empty." Nonsense. Try as hard as you want, if you have an honest encounter with my songs, you cannot miss the bhakthi.

And so then what are you going to say, as a "purist"? I'll give you a hint - I've probably thought about it more than you have (if you're this sort), and your only options are positions on the matter that in fact stifle an authentic personal religion, which is what bhakthi is, essentially.

Ranganayaki wrote: I wasn't too judgemental, just a bit...

Oh good.

/s

Ranganayaki wrote: I guess your mom would have tried hard to stuff you into a square box and if she was smart, she gave up.

Exactly correct!

You must have a son like me...

Ranganayaki wrote: Keep writing, thinking, and having fun with CM as you will. Wishing you success (in getting it the way you want).

Thank you very much, I appreciate this.

- G

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 26 Mar 2016, 13:23

Dear Gautam,

I understand very well that the way CM is going all over the world, sooner or later the day will come when CM will try to expand out to include new languages and themes with a demand for original compositions attuned for the local conditions and personal experiences rather than simply reciting those of others (that is not to devalue the experiences of others, but we need our own experiences too).

In this, translating existing compositions or setting them to existing tunes is usually the precursor of what will come -- eventually this will give way to a deeper and more original effort. As an example : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C32bliLshbc -- tuned to a javali.

These innovations are not new, it has been happening all along in some way or the other the same way Tamil music fought for it's place, or how the violin or the electric mandolin came into CM or how Dikshitar or Thyagaraja composed fresh on the places they visited often far from their native lands. But what matters is that the innovation should be significant enough to attain staying power. We are still appreciating Dikshitar and Beethoven centuries after their time...

Regarding following the lyrics, I should let you know that we have this same problem in all languages used in CM and most of us wouldn't decipher the words right without our lyrics links to come to the rescue and show us the correct splitting of the words. English would be specially challenging because of the tendency of many words to end in discontinuous consonants. There will also be challenges of fitting words to aesthetically pleasing and flowing rhythms.

There is one other thing which I should inform and that is what the late Yehudi Menuhin had written in his book on violin playing -- not to waste time debating with every critic out there. Yes we may say stuff because we have our limits too and aren't really comfortable with changes (something that gets worse as most people grow older). But arguing with every critic out there will make you look more like a rebel than an innovator (though I admit the lines between the too can often be blurred and it comes down to a matter of how polite we are

) Much more significantly -- it is exhausting and distracting. Everyone who gets noticed will get accolades and brickbats for their work, the question of critics is a matter of when and not if. Even the greatest geniuses will have critics.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 26 Mar 2016, 13:38

SrinathK wrote: English would be specially challenging because of the tendency of many words to end in discontinuous consonants. There will also be challenges of fitting words to aesthetically pleasing and flowing rhythms.

GautamTejas
I guess srinathk hit the nail on the head where he mentions words ending with discontinuous consonants . I think more than the language and cultural conditioning , the end of consonants is a ground zero problem. I suggest you can take some help from a very very multi skilled vageyakkara like arasi - you can contact her. she gets all languages inclusive of english with the same proficiency . She is just 3 hours in EST time zone . I a m not stopping you from composing and passing judgement on your english composition , but just take one or two tips and possibly make arasi compose.

I used to think for many years why the hell I like the neraval line annai kAmakhi pOle VadivAi vandAi as equal or bit more than bhAguga sree raghu ramuni in the krithis of punniyam oru kOti and kaligiyuNte respectively despite my overall liking for T and Telugu . The lines should not obstruct music and create more prasa.

For a change try composing in a english manipravalam lines a composition (that has english,tamil,sanskrit and telugu) or a combo of english-thamizh , english-telugu etc depending on whether you are performing in tamil sangam or telugu academy etc

- give a detailed neraval only in english part for that song

, that neraval should only end with vowels , people will turn towards your tejas as long as you deliver music. Please do reply to my previous thread question.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 26 Mar 2016, 15:02

GautamTejasGaneshan wrote: - I have posted nearly 40 full concert videos on VIMEO, @rajeshnat. Most have violin. You've got some watching to do.

Tejas,
Today being saturday I went to your website and looked at the vimeo links. Wanted to give a best shot of yours . After a bit of browsing , I thought let me settle in the link new directions in indian classical music. I was not sure of how good singer you are but I have extreme confidence on Anantha R krishnan and his mrudu angam . But vimeo stutters in my home every 2 mins. Latency sucks

Then I went to youtube and settled with your tie costume concert . One of my primary cribs is I am looking for a concert where like mmi-lgj there is just one mike at a distance from the vocalist and your concert has that , great just listened to a part of your todi and jaganmohini. You sing with passion and just like ranganayaki the prasa of english needs more tuning .

You wear different attire one with tie , one with suspender , one singing with kid , a full shaven man, one with beard etc. Is all that you ???. Many many years when i was a kid aged 8 to 10 one song got so much into my psyche , where thangavelu sings in the background and mundakannu ramachandran sings in the front with a brilliant pb sreenivas song . I hope you are not doing that . As such you are indeed kannAle pEsi pEsi kollAthE vidwan (Attn gautam - your visual tejas (tie,shoe, suspenders) are killing me and there is some ganeshan that is blocking your aural aesthetics)

I am talking about this song kannAlE pEsi pEsi kollAthE by great Play Back Singer (PBS)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bC8JBGjbtWo

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 26 Mar 2016, 15:05

Gautam tejas ganeshan,
Can I have a link of yours where you sing R, N , S - a stature of submain - like no reduced neraval and swaras . The song has to be in english. My search has not given me a link where you have sung an extensive neraval in english ? can you provide that specific link with the minutes start in youtube or vimeo with only mrudangam(i can live even without anantha here) ,violin and ghatam/kanjira.
Also answer to my post #16.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 26 Mar 2016, 20:38

Gautam, can I have the lyrics of the first krithi please? Maybe I will be thrid time lucky???

GautamTejasGaneshan · Post by **GautamTejasGaneshan** » 27 Mar 2016, 01:36

SrinathK wrote: In this, translating existing compositions or setting them to existing tunes is usually the precursor of what will come -- eventually this will give way to a deeper and more original effort.

Yes, this may be. Although I also have specific reasons for the current approach, which bears unique fruit. I think I wrote about these earlier in this thread, or elsewhere? I can't keep track!

SrinathK wrote: But what matters is that the innovation should be significant enough to attain staying power.

Correct!

I'm not there yet, granted, or maybe it's for others to say. Especially in delivery. If you're really interested, check out my ample published recordings & videos from a few years ago (link below), and you'll see that the trajectory is good, at least. For instance, try the audio-only playlists at the bottom (above which are 40+ more recent complete concert videos.)

http://gautamtejasganeshan.com/recordings.html

The second audio playlist is older (again, scroll down past the videos for these), and features 14 entirely wordless concerts, all accompanied by mridangist Anantha R. Krishnan, and no violin. Live tambura always. No electronic substitute - never. (Clouds the sruti, and I need all the help I can get to sound good...) One of these was at Arkay:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BB0j3-0xkQd/

BTW - @rajeshnat, these are for you!

To answer your question, yes I was an "instrumentalist" during that time, where instrument = voice! LOL one reviewer wrote this of me: "Ganeshan's instrument was neither strong nor showy, but rather eminently lyrical and supple, its dramatic impact bolstered by the singer's expressive use of his arms and hands." http://gautamtejasganeshan.com/reviews.html

Also, I really cannot stand these now, TBH. (the "New Directions" ones specifically.) This whole project was called "New Directions in Indian Classical Music," and it was an ensemble commissioned by the San Francisco Foundation and active from 2008 - 2010. Essentially, it was a project to render Carnatic music as free-improvised, "pure" music. As if the music needed freeing or purifying...

I mean, yes there are hints of musical value there, and they're interesting as a document of what happened. But my voice sounds too strained and unnatural. Still, I don't think many people have done what I did. And they have some great mridangam moments! In fact one of the best archives on the internet for modern mridangam, IMHO. A hidden gem in that respect.

SrinathK wrote: There will also be challenges of fitting words to aesthetically pleasing and flowing rhythms.

If not for CM acculturation, I think CM songs would sound "weird" to native speakers too. Think of the varnam vowel elongations. You've gotta learn to accept that at first. Man on the street does not say those words like that, certainly.

And, one swallow does not a spring make. I'm stepping into uncharted territory by myself here, and yeah, I'm confronting real and new challenges, which inspire creativity (as well as skepticism, evidently.) If I haven't solved the problem singlehandedly within the 5 years I've been writing songs, it shouldn't be surprising.

However, I'll note that there is much more going on in these songs phonetically, figuratively, etc. than you may observe initially, especially if all you do is compare them to their progenitors. I don't go around proclaiming the comparison - in fact, I'm even hesitant to say I'm a "Carnatic" musician at all, but Shantala the flute player convinced me (Shashank's sister) by saying "If it's not Carnatic music, what is it?"

And on that note, you're right @SrinathK, that "these innovations are not new." The only "new" thing is English. Which has been an "Indian" language for centuries now! As well as my mother tongue, for better or for worse. (Tamil being my "mother's" tongue. Yes I speak, read, & write, but not well enough to write excellent songs.) These are the facts - I didn't choose TX as an "oor" - it was thrust upon me. That's that, #DealWithIt.

SrinathK wrote: There is one other thing which I should inform and that is what the late Yehudi Menuhin had written in his book on violin playing -- not to waste time debating with every critic out there.

I love Yehudi Menuhin's writing. At this stage of my career, I have a bit of interest and energy for explaining myself, as I am here, and confronting critics (constructively). But I'm not setting store by what other people say, at least not ultimately. It's just fun to get different perspectives. As it happens, you guys (traditional CM rasikas) are in the minority in my audiences, which I sometimes regret, because if nobody expects some of the extensive manodharma, for instance, then it can be an even more uphill battle to "sell" it.

The point is, I'm happy to do the work to explain myself to you guys, and I think thus far I've shown that I have at least some of the tools required for acquittal.

Also, I might as well reiterate this: I would not say the concert at the top of this thread is my very best! Just the most recent, that's all. So maybe if you're serious about me, try some of the others too. For example, there's one with Vignesh Venkataraman on mridangam, outdoors, where he sounds really good, at least. Also great people-watching in that one. From a people-watching perspective, I generate the most interesting CM content in the world!

rajeshnat wrote: My search has not given me a link where you have sung an extensive neraval in english?

There are a few hiding among the VIMEOs, but lemme say this - obviously niraval is the richest and most demaning element in CM, and it's where my frontier is. So I want to respond to your question by saying feel free to browse (I post even mediocre concerts as a kick in the pants to myself - not to say some of them aren't good. Try the ones with Rajna on mridangam.) - but really, stay tuned for future posts. I'm improving, especially in niraval.

rajeshnat wrote: I was not sure of how good singer you are but I have extreme confidence on Anantha R krishnan and his mrudu angam.

These are exactly the right assumptions.

rajeshnat wrote: One of my primary cribs is I am looking for a concert where like mmi-lgj there is just one mike at a distance from the vocalist and your concert has that.

Well, we are very much on the same page here. My favorite in this regard is Alathur Bros. See how far the mic is, and yet their combined volume inevitably creates distortion. Great voices, great vigor. I think I do a good job recording my performances. Especially mridangam & tambura. Why does everybody think you have to put a mic within inches of the mrid thalais?? First of all, the middle of the thing makes a great sound of its own. Second of all, restricting athletic motion results in tame mridangam, whereas singing with a good mridangist should be like taming a lion.

rajeshnat wrote: ...great just listened to a part of your todi and jaganmohini. You sing with passion and just like ranganayaki the prasa of english needs more tuning.

Correct.

rajeshnat wrote: You wear different attire one with tie, one with suspender, one singing with kid, a full shaven man, one with beard etc. Is all that you ???

Yes. Dasavataram?

rajeshnat wrote: ...people will turn towards your tejas as long as you deliver music.

There's the rub, I think. Thanks for your suggestions.

MaheshS wrote:Gautam, can I have the lyrics of the first krithi please? Maybe I will be thrid time lucky???

OK here you go!

--

Of all the claims
regarding everything accelerating,
none is so unexhilarating,
none quite so boring
as the one alleging
that things have come unhinged,
suggesting which to be fashionably interested in,
fetishizing the apocalypse.

Kingdom come among injunctions
arising from obsession with death,
this fascination,
that after which none is done.

So now's the prime time to freak out!

I guess why not join in,
never mind how well-travelled,
how well-schooled by the centuries slow
hope survives all of the claims…

--

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 27 Mar 2016, 01:48

OH.. I think Gautam responded before me.

I tried making out the words yesterday, but couldn't make much sense of it. It wasn't available among the lyrics in his website.

It was important for me to find out why the words are hard make out.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 27 Mar 2016, 01:55

OH.. I think Gautam responded before me.

I tried making out the words yesterday, but couldn't make much sense of it. It wasn't available among the lyrics in his website.

It was important for me to find out why the words are hard make out.

This was the post I was going to submit:

Of (or I've) all the claims regarding everything accelerating
God (that) is so odd, exhilarating, that"s why it's so boring
As the one (of all) ---- I catch words here and there, but it doesn't make any sense

Alleging that things have come unhinged
Suggesting which to be fashionably interested in
Fashioning? Fascizing? the apocalypse
Kingdom come among injunctions arising from obsession
With death comes fascination that after which none is done
So now is the prime time to freak out
I guess why not, join in
Never mind how I'll travel
how I'll.... by centuries....

I think the prosody is all different from the spoken English.. for example your sangati on the word Kingdom places a stress on "dom" that does not exist in the spoken language. That stood out, but I need to listen to it more to have more ideas..

Some of it was me. I think I forgot the possibilities of poetic license in rearranging words in English and I was looking unnecessarily for straightforward syntax.. so "centuries slow" was missed and I didn't add the word "slow" that I heard while listening because nothing seemed to go with it.

GautamTejasGaneshan · Post by **GautamTejasGaneshan** » 27 Mar 2016, 02:49

@Ranganayaki

Nice work!

Ranganayaki wrote: I think the prosody is all different from the spoken English...

Yes, I think that's accurate - generally. There are some instances where some phrase is important to convey informally, in which case my register drops to colloquial. Usually these are easier to pick up on the spot, and I also make a point of delivering them clearly, or at least more so than my average.

Ranganayaki wrote: I think I forgot the possibilities of poetic license in rearranging words in English and I was looking unnecessarily for straightforward syntax...

Yes, I am influenced by inflected language syntax, as well as many elements of kriti structure in allowing the possibility of subtle/multiple meanings. Native English speakers can tolerate a bit of complexity, or anyone willing to do the work.

Who was it who wrote earlier that audiences have to expend an effort?

- G

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 27 Mar 2016, 03:08

To my comment:

I think the prosody is all different from the spoken English...

GautamTejasGaneshan wrote:@Ranganayaki

Yes, I think that's accurate - generally. There are some instances where some phrase is important to convey informally, in which case my register drops to colloquial.

I suspect that you misunderstood my comment. I meant to compare your musical delivery of English and the spoken delivery, not comment on your use of colloquialisms.

But this is the strange thing about understanding language: I used to find it very very difficult to understand some Japanese acquaintances whom I met frequently. But once I figured out an underlying set or rules : to interchange systematically the /r/ for a /l/ and vice versa, and to ignore some non-existent vowels they tend to add to words everything became clear. Now your video is playing along as I write and I am not even trying to decipher and I hear a lot of words and lines whereas yesterday it didn't even sound like English, but Tamil or southern Indian gibberish at first. I must be unconsciously applying some set of rules for you. I'm quite quick at this. I wish I knew what they were then I would know exactly what the difference is! It might be informative.

I will get my son to listen to you and see how well he understands, but he has to listen to the music too, and I'm not confident of that. He rarely enjoys vocal carnatic.

On a personal note, is the lady who bounces a baby in the video related to you? She seems to have more familiarity with your music than anyone else in the audience.

Thank you for your two responses to me.

GautamTejasGaneshan · Post by **GautamTejasGaneshan** » 27 Mar 2016, 03:22

Ranganayaki wrote: On a personal note, is the lady who bounces a baby in the video related to you? She seems to have more familiarity with your music than anyone else in the audience.

My wife, my son.

Probably she's more familiar with my music than she wants to be!

As for the little guy, see the last few seconds of the video above...

Or here's a different glimpse from a few months ago:

(This full concert had a dudukugala doppelgänger -
some of you may find that interesting!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2z1Aei40Xs

- G

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 27 Mar 2016, 03:30

GautamTejasGaneshan wrote:
Ranganayaki wrote: On a personal note, is the lady who bounces a baby in the video related to you? She seems to have more familiarity with your music than anyone else in the audience.
My wife, my son.

Probably she's more familiar with my music than she wants to be!

As for the little guy, see the last few seconds of the video...

- G

Cute, happy baby

..

venusishya · Post by **venusishya** » 05 Apr 2016, 10:07

Nevertheless the good intention and desire to create:

-previous members made a good point of showing English words don't blend with Carnatic. It's just not meant to be. The way the music flows and the melody goes is too continuous for a language like english. This is why our Indian languages sound much more aesthetically pleasing to the ear in the compositions of great masters

-when singing your own english versions, I would like to suggest that you create entirely new compositions, so you can structure them better with your words (which, by the way, have really deep meaning

) and not pick half and half from different musical systems

-another comment about the dress-I would prefer if you sang your own tune in completely western tune and western fashion, than somehow amalgamating the two and wearing a suit and tie while others wear kurta and jeans. It just looks unnatural.

Don't get me wrong, I believe you have an excellent voice and imagination-I just think a few small things will kickstart your career.

GautamTejasGaneshan · Post by **GautamTejasGaneshan** » 06 Apr 2016, 02:13

venusishya wrote: It's just not meant to be.

Theories live and die by being tested.

venusishya wrote: I would like to suggest that you create entirely new compositions, so you can structure them better with your words.

Thanks for your suggestion, which I take as a sign that what I'm doing interested you enough to inspire a comment.

I've spent some effort either earlier in this thread or elsewhere on rasikas.org to explain why I do just what I do, rather than what you're suggesting, and maybe later I'll have the energy and interest to follow up in more depth, but for now, here's MY suggestion:

Try and find those statements of mine and let's have a conversation about them specifically.

venusishya wrote: (which, by the way, have really deep meaning )

Thank you.
I'm glad you noticed.
Bit of an uphill battle on rasikas.org, I'm sorry to say.
Guess you're not used to singer-songwriters around here?
WWTD?

venusishya wrote: I would prefer if you sang your own tune in completely western tune and western fashion, than somehow amalgamating the two and wearing a suit and tie while others wear kurta and jeans. It just looks unnatural.

It is western.
I live and sing in California.
Pretty much the westest you can get.

I'm not responsible for what others wear.

Some people probably think South Indians look "unnatural" in America in the first place.
Does your "preference" extend that far?
Wasn't my choice to be born here.
Not for "amalgamation," you're saying?

Everybody's getting hung up on the tie. It's kind of a joke people, relax. What about guys who smear ashes all over their arms just for show? What about those irritating iron creases in the silk kurtas? It's all just nonsense - I have all kinds of reasons for wearing what I wear, and most of them are bad!

Sorry if I'm pushing you a bit here, but why don't you post 40 of your own concerts and let's find out what MY "preferences" are about YOUR way of doing things?

venusishya wrote: Don't get me wrong, I believe you have an excellent voice and imagination-I just think a few small things will kickstart your career.

I am certainly glad you are weighing in - it's better than staying on the sidelines.

In fact my voice and imagination can both be greatly improved.

You're correct that a few small things will kickstart my career -
in fact my voice and imagination can both be greatly improved!

Don't take my comments here in the wrong spirit,
and likewise I don't take yours in the wrong spirit.
You're mostly saying good things, and I appreciate it.

We worship at the same shrine, that's what gives us enough care to even check this forum.

- G

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 06 Apr 2016, 08:27

GautamTejasGaneshan wrote: Thanks for your suggestion, which I take as a sign that what I'm doing interested you enough to inspire a comment.

I've spent some effort either earlier in this thread or elsewhere on rasikas.org to explain why I do just what I do, rather than what you're suggesting, and maybe later I'll have the energy and interest to follow up in more depth, but for now, here's MY suggestion:
....
.....
Guess you're not used to singer-songwriters around here?
WWTD?

Gautam
Are you saying that as of now you are taking a path of only writing your own english lyrics and singing it ,is that cast in stone .Does that mean for the sake of your ideals that you would not consider any other english lyrics written by anyone else (not passing any subjective judgement here , just clarifying your intent and ideals )

I dont understand WWTD- i am ignorant on that - please clarify?

GautamTejasGaneshan · Post by **GautamTejasGaneshan** » 06 Apr 2016, 09:31

@rajeshnat:

WWTD = What Would Thyagaraja Do?

And to answer your question, yes, I've sung lyrics written by others as pallavis & viruttams.

Wendell Berry, Tagore, e e cummings, etc.

Not cast in stone. I've sung trad. CM songs in concerts too.
I sang at the Musiri house on Luz - all classics. Darini Telusukonti, etc.

- G

bharathi · Post by **bharathi** » 06 Apr 2016, 11:18

Gautam Tejas Ganeshan

Lovely effort from you.. I can appreciate it.. I recall my son while learning the varnam in Abhogi used to put his own words in English.. He was brought up in Tamil Nadu and therefore even Telugu was a foreign language. It was funny, yet interesting.
I am glad you have done whole pieces of Music in English. Ultimately it is the music that one relates to and if there is possibility that you will understand the lyrics if you try.. makes you listen to it more.. CM gets into you.. this way more people will listen to CM.
This is why singing CM songs in Tamizh has caught on in Chennai in the last few years..

I have agonized over the fact that CM has so few listeners, although the system is so beautiful and rich in musical content.

I hope the younger group that less prejudiced will be enthused into CM through your laudable efforts

ALL THE BEST
bharathi

hema · Post by **hema** » 06 Apr 2016, 20:23

As some have pointed on this forum (although I do agree with Ganesh that the lyrics need to appeal to more people) -- here are some
things you need to take care of (technically as I see it) -- my two paise worth:

1) Most lyrics use vowels extensively.
2) The frequencies of svaras and their harmonics must match the formants of the vowels -- to ensure no dissonance -- this is a conjecture
3) Not all English words perhaps are amenable for elongation/gamaka -- for example, the vowel in "same" can be elongated -- while I am not
sure if the same 'e' sound in "get" can be elongated -- it will sound like "gate/gait" and the meaning (stress associated) of
the lyric may be lost. One has to look at country music or Jazz composers' composition along with the music. There is
rhythm and prosody in a kriti and this must be preserved.
4) English lyrics for Carnatic music -- English is a stress-timed language, while Indian languages are syllable-timed. The stress-timedness of
English MUST be preserved in the lyrics that you make. Indian English is syllable-timed though -- the reason why most Westerners feel
that we speak sing-song.

I feel some serious research is in order to study the use of syllables in the compositions of yesteryear composers.

It is not new. Tagore in fact imported a musician from Theosophical society and tuned some of his songs using Dikshitar and Tyagaraja.
Meenakshi (purvikalyani) comes to my mind.

GautamTejasGaneshan · Post by **GautamTejasGaneshan** » 06 Apr 2016, 23:04

hema wrote: I am not sure if the same 'e' sound in "get" can be elongated

"Schwakaram" ™

Here's the afterword from my first book of songs, called "40 Songs":

http://gautamtejasganeshan.com/songbook.html

ON THESE SONGS:

My songs are obvious, or ought to be. There's an effort in writing them, sometimes delicate, sometimes stubborn. But in the ones that make it to my lips (or to my throat really), the craft doesn't weigh heavily. I'm not trying to leave chisel marks.

Song is an unfathomable inheritance, the neanderthal of literature. Songs nestle in the mind, and yield to fondling by the tongue. I do write these because I want to feel them. Like a prescient grandmother, I can tell when they've become pregnant, and then I begin to repeat to savor.

My songs contain an invisible identity. They're naturalized, not born. If you're into Carnatic music, you've got the babelfish, and you'll hear easter eggs everywhere. I'm not intent on representing - they're just good, if they are.

What they're about is a barrel-o-monkeys. Sacred music beats everything in rock paper scissors. I have a laundry list of annotations for each song, according to its poetics, its references to what-have-you, its special meanings needing 'splaining.

But don't worry about the hidden files - just play the game. In the lingua franca, lilt gives lay. Each song has a way it pulls the pocket. That's one of the main things. There's also the matter of "schwakaram", i.e. the integration of boredom into a good life.

The tunes have hidden corners which I didn't invent. I kinda sing old music. Singer-songwriter is an old profession too.

A mridangam drummer from Kalamazoo told me about "contrafacta", and yes, that's what they are. They follow a disciplined song form. Movements are iterative, and violations are deflating. They are meant to give glory by being healthy. Yes, I aim for perfection, but gimme a break.

- GTG

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 07 Apr 2016, 01:22

<quote> Bit of an uphill battle on rasikas.org, I'm sorry to say. </quote>

Gautam: You are a very brave dude for even attempting to have this conversation here. I will see you at/after one of your Berkeley shows. I would love to have a more detailed discussion on your music.

GautamTejasGaneshan · Post by **GautamTejasGaneshan** » 09 Apr 2016, 21:07

mahavishnu wrote: You are a very brave dude for even attempting to have this conversation here.

Nah, just honest. Mostly.

mahavishnu wrote: I will see you at/after one of your Berkeley shows. I would love to have a more detailed discussion on your music.

Sure thing. Please introduce yourself.

- G

msk2 · Post by **msk2** » 10 May 2016, 02:22

I bumped into your vimeo video while surfing the web. I appreciate your effort and creativity.

It took me a while before I realized the lyrics are in English. In 100 years from now, your lyrics may be the norm!

GautamTejasGaneshan · Post by **GautamTejasGaneshan** » 11 May 2016, 19:56

msk2 wrote:I appreciate your effort and creativity. It took me a while before I realized the lyrics are in English.

Thanks!

At least you didn't listen to a four hour concert in person and then ask me afterwards if I had been singing the Mahabharata, like one guy did! I think he had been waiting for months for any opportunity to say "Mahabharata." White guy. At least he showed up though. Who thinks I should have listeners with more acculturation? I agree! Therefore you all should come to concerts. QED

msk2 wrote:In 100 years from now, your lyrics may be the norm!

Just like neanderthals may have in fact had bigger brains, but nonetheless due to some advantages or happenstance here we are instead of them, English + GunsGermsSteel + Internet = here to stay, no doubt. I didn't choose to speak it natively, but with it having the largest dictionaries and everybody seemingly aspiring to speak it, as well as its own interesting poetic history of course (Shakespeare = Sheshappa Iyer conspiracy theories anyone?) - I don't mind.

But of course, nothing beats an inflected language for flexibility. Elsewhere @arasi commented on the complexity of my sentences - some of that has to do with being willing to tolerate in English the sort of word order found in Sanskrit, Tamil, Telugu etc.

- G