Gender and Carnatic music

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 10 Jul 2016, 10:04

Dear rasikas,

I hope this will be a free-wheeling discussion among experts and lay persons like me on a topic that exercises my mind often. To state it simply, I feel gender propensities have a lot to do with our approach to Carnatic music either as listeners or as musicians. At the same time, Carnatic music allows us to express ourselves musically by going beyond our gender "constraints". Some examples of my thoughts:

1. Whereas men have generally dominated the "management" and "shaping" of Carnatic music (like almost all else in our society), still women have a natural advantage when it comes to melody and emotive impact through Carnatic music. I mean, with proper training, women can do very well in Carnatic music.

2. In instrumental music, men and women performers can overcome their natural "constraints" of expression. I have often noted how women violinists can play a very virile and masculine type of music, and how vainikas like Chitti Babu play an essentially feminine type of music. I hope you can catch my drift here.This morning, over radio, a lady vainika was playing with a decidedly "masculine" manodharma of music. This is what triggered this post! It is important to separate what is the result of "training" and learnt behaviour vs. a natural approach. In any case, in my opinion, instrumentalists can be both Yin and Yang irrespective of their biological gender.

3. The one area which seems to be the preserve of men is percussion and "laya vyavaharam". I think women are unable to do equally well as men here. Similarly, many rakti bhava compositions, bhajans, lullabies etc. are the exclusive preserve of women! And by the way, the latter portion has more takers among audiences.

4. I have noticed over time that men audiences tend to appreciate more readily women stars and vice versa. Call it a natural orientation!

5. What about compositions? Are there decidedly "masculine" ones and "feminine" ones? I feel a lot of Thyagaraja compositions, and all Ashtapadis, and many Swati Tirunal compositions, have a feminine nature.

6. Can fusion music be feminine? Or is it not mostly masculine, being speed- and percussion-dominated?

I do hope we can have a good discussion on this, without casting aspersions on one another or one or the other gender.

Happy Sunday!

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 10 Jul 2016, 10:27

Off the tangent remarks:
A person who can sense masculine and feminine in instrumental music cannot be lay!
Is not masculine/feminine arbitrary and conventional rather than intrinsic like biological functions? Is melody feminine and SSI style (I am unable to get a proper word) masculine? Is not the whole of music about melody?
How does music of MBK, KJY, Aruna Sairam sound?
I rushed in before experts to prove the saying.. 'Fools rush in..'

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 10 Jul 2016, 10:51

No KVC, we are brothers in arms, remember? So thanks for the first touch pass.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 10 Jul 2016, 10:55

For me BMK, KJY=masc. DKP, AS=bordering masc. Unnikrishnan, Vijay Siva=Fem. Sorry, even as I am writing this, I can see it has something to do with voice timbre! But I fervently remonstrate that it is not MERELY pitch/timbre but a lot else. I feel KVN and RKM have a femininity in their music.

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 10 Jul 2016, 12:54

Gender has a lot to do with Carnatic Music from time immemorial.The final delivery apart from one's individuality always borders on accompaniments he/she assembles.The male/female voice is heard during only Alapana.In the case of female trinty MS/DKP/MLV,i agree with Sri RSachi that DKP 's voice was on Male borderline.Some how the voice used to attract me compared to the other two.Please do not mistake me the others MS/MLV were equally great and delivered fine music.But to one who had male bias,I was attracted to DKP's music and additionally DKP used to have a male DKJ singing with her often in DKJ's formative years.BMK's voice is on border line of Feminine voice.
In today's scenario Saketaraman has voice on female border line so also Sikkil Gurucharan.
Sanjay highly masculine voice.
Compared to yester years today female musicians get better accompaniments.Most of the good Violin and Mridangam players do not hesitate to accompany female artists of course well known ones.
Even while trying to make up my mind to attend a particular concert,Male/female does weigh in my mind although nowadays i do attend a good number of female artists.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 10 Jul 2016, 13:26

The day will come when such questions are not even thought of. Well, I say it will come: I am being optimistic!

sankark · Post by **sankark** » 10 Jul 2016, 18:05

Rsachi wrote:Dear rasikas,
I mean, with proper training, women can do very well in Carnatic music.

Really? Without proper training and sAdhakam, no one can do very well in any field and for CM that is doubly triply quadruply true. So why bring the female gender here - misphrased perhaps?

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 10 Jul 2016, 18:16

Yes, needs rewording.what I was trying to say was that
the natural instinct for melody and sweetness of voice are assets in general for women who wish to sing, but in Carnatic music, these assets need the right training for them to make their mark. With the same musical acumen and same quality of training, I mean women will be able to excel men in Carnatic music. This is only a generalisation.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 10 Jul 2016, 19:12

About the rhythm thing. The most difficult part of carntatic rhythm is not the playing but the mental part. We see female artists handling, composing, performing, difficult pallavis in long and difficult talams, along with the multiplication and the patterns in the kalpana swaras. Gender is no bar. That we seldom see them behind the mridangam would seem to me to be part of a purely social construct. Remember, these things go so deep that they even affect what people think they want.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 10 Jul 2016, 19:17

The gender bias is well entrenched. It seems there is a derogatory expression 'pommanAtti sangItam.' Semmangudi has gone on record about MS, 'She is the best tanam singer among women.'
I too have gender bias - I prefer women singers to men singers (a sure sign of an ordinary Rasika!)

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 11 Jul 2016, 14:10

RSachi Sir,
Art forms, performing arts in specific, deliver the pleasure and also displeasure (form of pain), lower in order of causal, effect and its affectations. Pleasure is in experience, experience of perceived beauty of aesthetic, in abstract form. Restlessness of the mind for determination and establishing the identity to the abstract results in giving identities or in acceptance, its endorsement unquestioningly or with reservations unexpressed, of a popular authority with gained universal support. Gender relationship as causal and effects in aesthetic is one such identity established in truth of belief, faith and following. It is not truth of fact. Identities of ‘male’, ‘feminine’ qualities in nature established, condition the mind and conditioned mind in belief results in determination. Music creates frequencies, frequencies are received in various parts of the brain, creation or upsurge of dopamine chemicals in the brain delivers the placebo effect, feel of goodness, feelings of pleasure in relationship with either memory afresh, anew or its recall. Owing to the conditioning of the mind with beliefs, in memory, in experience, analytics and determination sense of mind in action, pleasure or displeasure is felt. Power, energy, its flow; high, strong, medium, low, soft being the carriers of frequencies of the sounds, in recognition are given the identities of characteristics and qualities of ranj, color for rasas, its rasaanubhuti.
Similar to the other aspects of living and living style with identities for gender and its differences, psychological, work and literature, art form also established the identities and conditioned the minds. Majority, of both the practitioners and rasikas, for the ease of comfort and escapism, prefer conformance. Only few dare to be individualistic in freedom, in experience and explanations of their experiences in communications, oral or written.
Gender differences, preferences, quality etc are truly transcended in art and its practices, which places them on exalted state over all the other avocations of humans. Uncondition the mind, gain pure perception, end the ignorance, rest in freedom, ending pride and prejudice of falsity, seek, aim and enjoy the unalloyed joy or pleasure of Karnataka Sangeetham, one of the greatest of art forms of mankind.
munirao2001

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 11 Jul 2016, 14:47

Uncondition the mind, gain pure perception, end the ignorance, rest in freedom, ending pride and prejudice of falsity, seek, aim and enjoy the unalloyed joy or pleasure of Karnataka Sangeetham, one of the greatest of art forms of mankind.
munirao2001

Sir, golden words indeed. I think you are saying something here similar to what the loftiest thinkers have said.

But a conditioned mortal like me, given to aesthetic experiences rooted in rasas, listening to both sahitya and sangeeta in a concert, with deeply conditioned memories of Carnatic music, has to come up with a more practical approach to removing gender biases.

In a parallel stream of thought, I have often wondered why Sadashiva Brahmendra begins by saying, "Manasa, sancharare, Brahmani", and then says in the later line, "Sriramani-kucha-durga-vihare". I feel all our iconography, shlokas, and sahitya, are heavily leveraging the male-female principle. Anyway, I may be a gross and superficial person, but this is my reality.
Please continue to give your thought-provoking and practical suggestions. Thank you!!

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 11 Jul 2016, 16:51

RSachi Sir, Humans have two needs, physical and metaphysical, psychological and spiritual beyond the psychological. Physical aspect, needs, gross, sthoolatma, the identities in relation with objects, objectification of beauty, aesthetic. Male and female principles established in living experiences of division of labor and works based on the power-muscular or thought/thinking, body and form, extends to all aspects, including the art, works of art and its experiences. When confronted with non conformance to the principles, mind seeks and is set upon in inquiry. Inquiry results in introspection, inference, meditation, discursive/analytic, determination, will and action. Action for transcending the object and objectification results in unitary principles beyond the limitations of male and female principles. One example is 'ardhanareeswara' in form and 'ardhanareeswaratatva' in principles, in existence, not in existence but truly in reality. Consciously, end the promptings of thoughts of conditioned mind, eschewing both attractions and distractions, observe and perceive the beauty, aesthetic transcending male and female principles in gender qualities and bias. Success in sense of mind being in the present, happening moments will result in its continuity.
Metaphysical aspect needs subtle, sookshmatma, unseen, unknown beyond the apparent gross, seen and known. Sense of mind leaves the aids, the word/sahithya, rhythm/tala/kaalapramana, and raga/melody and perceives. In perception, experiences the nada, in nada all the unity. It is In naadanubhuti, greatest pleasure, beyond the name and form, beyond the word, beyond the tala, beyond the raga, beyond the Svara. It is also unity of minds in pleasure and partaking the pleasure, the performer and the rasika, listener.
Sadashiva Brahmendra's lyric is also an example of subjectivity-imagination of sense of mind- sanchara –formless and subjectivity in description, objectification-in form, in creativity of the sense of the mind. It also establishes the metaphysical and physical relationship, in harmony.
munirao2001

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 11 Jul 2016, 17:23

Gender is the basis for life and engenders bias. Without that bias, life will have no meaning. It is by some reasoning and intellectual stirring, not quite integral to life, that we arrive at non-duality and a clean slate of mind or a white screen on which events roll, but a mature mind is detached. Objectivity is unattainable by definition since all experience is possible only through mind which is subjective.
(Stephen Hawking:
“A theory is a good theory if it is an elegant model, if it describes a wide class of observation, and if it predicts the results of new observations. Beyond that, it makes no sense to ask if it corresponds to reality, because we do not know what reality is independent of a theory.”)

The question here is not philosophical, but the perceived difference in the music by men and women. By going into its very aesthetic, one is drawn to certain commonalities for one gender and contrasts between the two, and the question has arisen whether there are exceptions that reinforce the perception. Is that difference reflected even in instrumental music, perhaps because of the way the physical force between men and women may vary?

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 11 Jul 2016, 18:16

Chauvinistic society was the norm for time immemorial; but progressive thoughts, and higher education in spirit have changed the balance in life, culture, ability, and contribution to this human living universe. Hanging on to the thoughts that a certain art is exclusive monopoly of male or female is ignorance.

RaviSri · Post by **RaviSri** » 11 Jul 2016, 18:17

I too have gender bias - I prefer women singers to men singers (a sure sign of an ordinary Rasika!)

Decades ago in the 1940s there was a rasika and music patron called Tirumalayya Naidu in Triplicane, Madras. He used to arrange concerts at his home regualrly and invite only women musicians to sing. He used to say it seems, "If a donkey has to bray, it has to be a she-donkey."

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 11 Jul 2016, 18:42

KVC Sir, It is true life engenders bias in evolution. But not the living. Living is in experience, one's own and owning the others, with no need for gender bias. We are discussing the causal, effects and affectations of gender, gender bias in the practice and listening experience of an art form. At lower level, the myth of form, qualities, specialties and ascribed limitations. At higher level, reality of beyond form, qualities, specialties and ascribed limitations. Look at myth of gender in instrumental music. Without the knowledge of the artists, can listening experience identify the gender? No. Obviously vocal music establishes the identity of the gender. Music in performance rests on intent, content and delivery. Gender bias is not in intent, content but only in delivery. In music, aesthetic experiences are in sahithya bhavam and sangita bhavam. In sangita bhavam, no gender bias and differences. In sahithya bhavam there is possibilities for gender bias. Word is by it self, is dumb. It gets movement only in music. In movement, in music, no gender bias. Are they no differences in delivery? Yes, it is only in infusion of power, tonal volume. Male prefers and uses the power for securing the attention and span of attention. Female intelligently uses the power of melody, more for securing the attention and span of attention.

Question is philosophical in true sense of point of view of fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, existence and guiding principle for behavior.
Sir, perception, study and empirical evidence of reality is established in theory, not as an independent entity.

munirao2001

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 11 Jul 2016, 21:05

It may be just personal taste without belittling the other gender whichever gender u prefer for listening.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Jul 2016, 21:11

Thanks for the thread, Sachi. Munirao, KVC, VKR and others.

From AtmAnubhava to rasikAs experience as a community: Whether it's a man or woman artiste giving a concert, it's heard by both men and women in the audience. Men (women) who only listen to women artistes, men (women) who only listen to men. There are many others like me who like listening to both

Now, go figure out why. Conditioning? Psychological make up--or both? Even something more?

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 11 Jul 2016, 22:44

It is the social construct that keeps women away from percussion and it is not lack of skill. Nick is right in pointing it out. Even in a social gathering women are looked down upon if she taps the table with rhythm for any music. women are supposed to only hum along. preconceived Social grace . Even in western music I have mostly seen only men banging the drums, "mostly".

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Jul 2016, 13:42

ganesh_mourthy wrote:Even in western music I have mostly seen only men banging the drums, "mostly".

"westerners" have all the same problems. Probably there is no country in the world where all the frequently-found biases and prejudices have been truly overcome. All that can be said is that, in come, it is, at least recognised as a problem. Some people genuinely try to face and deal with the prejudice in themselves and those around them; some other people just hide it; yet others don't bother to even do that.

Sure, we could look at Western rock music and see that it is male-dominated. I'm not so sure about western classical, but I think so; certainly a glance at the list of composer names we all know would suggest that.

It is not an Eastern problem or a western problem: the flavours may differ, but the stuff is the same. It is a world problem.

Sundara Rajan · Post by **Sundara Rajan** » 12 Jul 2016, 19:04

Those who say that D.K. PattammAL had "male/bordering male" voice, most likely have not listened to her live music, as I had the fortune to do, or her very old (pre-1960)recordings. Her voice at her young ages was as pleasantly feminine as any of her contemporaries, if not better ! Unfortunately, age had its toll on her voice, yet it was still divine. For heavens, sake please do not compare DKP with AruNa Sairam or Bangalore Ramani AmmAL !

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 12 Jul 2016, 19:49

Kalki has given a very beautiful description o her arresting voice. Sri Pasupathy may be able to give the link.
Another one I found in his blog:
"கர்நாடக சங்கீத வித்தை மிக அருமையானது. அந்த வித்தையிலே தேர்ச்சி அடைதல் எளிய காரியமன்று. அதற்கு இயற்கையோடு பிறந்த இசை உணர்ச்சி வேண்டும். இடைவிடாத உழைப்பும் பயிற்சியும் வேண்டும். இப்படி அரிதில் பெற்ற வித்தை நன்கு சோபிப்பதற்கு இனிய சாரீரம் வேண்டும். இந்த மூன்று அம்சங்களும் நன்கு பொருந்திய பாக்கியசாலி, கான ஸரஸ்வதி டி.கே.பட்டம்மாள். மதுரமும் கம்பீரமும் பொருந்திய சாரீரம், அசாதாரண லயஞானம், அழுத்தமான கமகப் பிடிகள், தெளிவான சாஹித்ய உச்சரிப்பு - இவை ஸ்ரீமதி பட்டம்மாளின் பாட்டில் விசேஷ அம்சங்கள்."

Great Sri Pasupathy. I found the other one too:
" சாரீரம்:- இவருடைய சாரீரத்தில் இனிமையும் கம்பீரமும் கலந்திருப்பதைக் காண்கிறோம். ஸ்திரீகளுக்குள் இத்தகைய சாரீரம் அமைவது மிகவும் துர்லபம்.

எது இனிமையான சாரீரம் என்பதைப் பற்றிக்கூட , அபிப்ராய பேதத்துக்கு இடமுண்டு என்று சொல்லியிருக்கிறேன். சிலருக்குக் கீச்சுக் குரல்தான் இனிமையான குரலாகத் தோன்றும். வேறு சிலரோ கீச்சுக் குரலைக் கேட்டால் காதைப் பொத்திக் கொள்வார்கள். இரட்டை நாத சாரீரத்தில் தான் சிலர் பூரண சுகபாவத்தைக் காண்பார்கள். வேறு சிலர் இதையே “மூக்கால் பாடுவது” என்பார்கள். அபிப்பிராய பேதத்துக்கு இடமின்றி எல்லாரும் ஒப்புக் கொள்ளக்கூடிய சாரீரம் சிலருக்குத்தான் உண்டு.

ஸ்திரீகளுக்குள் இன்னும் இது அருமை. உதாரணமாக, ஸ்ரீமதி பாலசரஸ்வதியின் தாயார் ஸ்ரீமதி ஜயம்மாள் அத்தகைய மேலான சாரீரம் பெற்றிருக்கிறார்.

அதுபோலவே, அபிப்பிராய பேதத்துக்கு இடமின்றி எல்லாரும் ஒப்புக் கொள்ளக்கூடிய சாரீரம் ஸ்ரீமதி பட்டம்மாளுடையது. கீச்சுக் குரல் இல்லாமல் சுகபாவம் உள்ளது. துரித காலத்தில் பிர்காக்கள் போடுவதற்கும், சவுக்க காலத்தில் நின்று பாடுவதற்கும் ஏற்றதாய் அமைந்தது. பெரிய சபைகளில் கடைசி வரையில் கேட்கும்படியான கம்பீரமும் பொருந்தியது."

I beg your pardon, those who cannot read Tamizh.

Pasupathy · Post by **Pasupathy** » 12 Jul 2016, 23:41

The links are:

http://s-pasupathy.blogspot.com/2014/03/33.html

http://s-pasupathy.blogspot.com/2014/04/34.html

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 13 Jul 2016, 08:12

What Kalki says:

CM is precious art. It's not easy to get proficient in it. One needs an innate sense for music,needs endless practice, and the gift of a sweet (pleasing) voice. The one endowed with all these three qualities is Gana Saraswati D.K. Pattamma. She has a voice which combines sweetness (mAdhurya) and majesty (gAmbhIrya). This is a rare combination in a woman's voice.

Extraordinary laya gnAna, handling of gamakAs with depth--this is the hallmark of her singing.

I have mentioned before that it's difficult to agree upon as to what a really sweet voice is. Some think, high pitched voices are sweet. Others close their ears when they hear such a voice. A double-nAdA voice (iraTTai nAdak kural??) is most pleasing to some. Others find it nasal.

Very few voices are appealing to all. Balasarasvathi's mother Jayamma's voice is appealing to all. You can say that of Pattamma too. Sukha bhAvA instead of high-pitched singing. A voice best suited for producing rapid brigAs and also ideal for emotive cowka kAla singing. Possessing the quality which would carry the voice to the very last row, even in a big hall (ah, mic-less era! Nick, don't heave a sigh!).
...
I really wanted this writing about dear DKP to reach all (Mohan, I hope you find it).

Sundararajan,
Here's Kalki to reinforce your (our) sentiments

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 13 Jul 2016, 08:29

There is something called masculine and feminine in the way words rhyme in poetry , isnt it >
Of course it has nothing to do with cultural / physiological concepts of the same.
Delends More on how words are stressed , especially the ones at the end of a line.
But then there are folks who look like errors .In the cultural / physiological context.
I had an aunt who be the first to rush into a room where a snake was reportedly spotted . And lots of menfolk jumping on chairs in the belief that snakes cant climb a chair

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 13 Jul 2016, 08:44

It is interesting, I have seen only sridevi's snake dance, men doing it on chairs must be a precious sight!

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 13 Jul 2016, 08:57

Climbing on the chairs is definitely safe . Snakes don't climb the chairs to bite you . They are not vengeful but only defensive.
Here the men's life is at stake so it does not matter if the women folks gets violently manly to save them. That is awe for men.

The problem is only when "some" men are at comfort and relaxed , can they make all the biased judgement, but not in a flight or fight state.

Is that a same side goal that I am making?!!

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 13 Jul 2016, 11:51

Sirs,
The scenario is not that simple.
1. Snakes come into the house in search of lizards, cockroaches and rats.
2. Men are generally at home expecting to be fed.
3. Women who are snake-catchers could well be afraid of cockroaches, lizards and rats.
4. Cockroaches and rats are in search of food, eg snake eggs.
5. Female snakes are more aggressive than male ones, especially when they are protecting their eggs.
6. Women do not prioritise protecting chair-climbing men but worry more about what's cooking in the kitchen or crying in the cradle.

I feel the only solution is to play any of the following music recordings (listed in order of reducing effectiveness):
1. Punnagavarali by MSS.
2. Nagaswarali by KVN.
3. Naganandini by Sanjay Subramanyan.
4. Adu Pambe by Kadari Gopalnath.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 13 Jul 2016, 15:29

Male bias comes through! 3 men against one woman!

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 13 Jul 2016, 16:27

RSachi Sir,

SAPTAPADI SUTRAS

1. Solution lies in listening, discern, experiencing quality and values.
2. Practicing by listening to radio/tv concerts, missing out the announcement and known artists.
3. In attending to the concerts of not popular artists.
4. These practices, over a period enabling unconditioning of the mind with beliefs, pride and prejudices.
5. Ending the conditioning of the mind, practice listening to artists of great merits, performing with commitment and dedication to the tradition of excellence, excellence in pure and pristine qualities and values of the art form.
6. Sensed, perceived and enjoyed pleasure result in ending the untruth in gender specific strengths and weaknesses and transforming oneself to a discerning rasika.
7. Sincerely working for transformation of the collective lay rasikas to become discerning rasikas. Action, work, service securing the art form exalted state, deserving and on the path of further growth and development in practice and appreciation, beyond any causal and effects.

munirao2001

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 13 Jul 2016, 16:35

I am being feminist here. Pls reread my post. men are shivering inside with a brave face outside. I was bitten by a snake ( good god, it did not waste its venom though) . Just seeing the two dots on my ankle sent me chills down the spine.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 13 Jul 2016, 18:19

Munirao sir,
Thank you. Sapta-sopana-paddhati for an evolved soul, indeed.
Thanks again.

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 13 Jul 2016, 20:31

Dear sri Munirao,
Excellent and very educative postings indeed.How many rasikas flock to not so popular artists even if well established?
Empty seats welcome those artists with a few rasikas sitting here and there.This was my experience in the recent Fort HS Ramanavami concerts.
Generally the monthly concerts of SRLK,Bangalore Gayana samaja ,Nadasurabhi and Indira Nagar sangeetha sabha feature artists who are well versed but not popular.The crowd at Nadasurabhi is much better and encourage the artists.In other venues my observation is that Rasikas do not attend in large numbers.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 13 Jul 2016, 23:40

May be because there are more people in the vicinity who like music? Or because it's a small hall and doesn't need many listeners to seem like it's full?

However, Gayana Samaja is bound to look empty, even if there is a reasonable number of rasikAs in that huge hall!

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 13 Jul 2016, 23:53

TM Krishna, in his book, " A Southern Music":

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Jul 2016, 01:54

Rsachi wrote:TM Krishna, in his book, " A Southern Music"

it sounds convincing. Does science agree?

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 14 Jul 2016, 05:01

Nick H wrote: it sounds convincing. Does science agree?

He most likely needs a "typically" or some such weasel word. There are some females who can go lower than most males and vice versa and so also for other features of the human voice. So the two voices may not be distinguishable in every single case. Perhaps we can agree that what he says is true on average.

-Thenpaanan

shankar vaidyanathan · Post by **shankar vaidyanathan** » 14 Jul 2016, 06:30

1) It may be that women who are Layam inclined, gravitate early to Dance as a visual expressive art form with widespread recognition.

2) Re compositions, I have felt that there are feminine and masculine Ragas. The underlying melody structure is the reason.

3) Unscientific social research based on Kutcheri observation: (patent pending!)

a) Untrained Male Rasikas like loud Female vocalists and extreme sound drum destroyers. The louder the better. It may be that these Rasikas have slowly lost their hearing in the natural frequencies. ENT specialists would do well by sponsoring such Abhang Dabangs.

b) Trained Male Rasikas like deep voices with a scholarly bias. As these voices are in limited supply and declining demand, these Rasikas usually compromise by the available mode of transport to concerts, especially late evening concerts.

4) A true test may be what we choose to listen to when we take all constraints away. What's our natural preference? For me, it had been a journey over the years. I crave quality sound recordings of Male vocalists with top notch accompanying artists. The recording quality is important. Overall approach and development are a must. I like sound tracks that are in the 25-40 minutes range that offer exploration possibilities. Sanjay, TMK, Vijay Siva, Abhishek Raghuram, Sikkil Gurucharan, KBMK, Bharat Sundar, Priyas, Sowmya, and Bombay Jayashree.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 14 Jul 2016, 09:15

Shankar,

After all the serious fare in this thread, you come like the proverbial pineapple gojju in the vivaha bhojanam that tickles my palate, wakes me up from sugar overload, prepares me for thayir sadam, enboldens me to ask for an extra bajji/amavada, and restores a sanguine sense of life.

May our tribe increase. It is the only antidote for the cultural diatribe.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 14 Jul 2016, 09:22

Shankar,
The best way to escape existential challenges of attending concerts with varying quality and experiences (an accusing finger is emanating from Bhagavan as I say this) is to listen to old/trustworthy archived audio stream/YT/recordings of masters or some of the current talent with Bose or such deep bass headphones and VLC player with wonderful equaliser settings.
My preference is for concerts with good mridangam and melodious violin with a rich, manodharma-laden voice. Allow me to add some names you haven't listed: Ramakrishnan Murthy, Amrutha Venkatesh, Amrita Murali, (plus as you said:TMK, and the outlier KBMK.)

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 14 Jul 2016, 13:03

Rsachi,

I would share my observation after attending concerts over a long period of time.Even now i still remain at lowest level as far as Knowledge and deep understanding is concerned.There was a time When Sri Balamurali used to play with out giving great importance to accompaniments.his concerts in the company of say LGJ/UKS or MSG/TVG will take you out of the world and the sheer brilliance is of the highest order.Most of the male Vidwans are particular in getting good accompaniments compared to female genre (This is told by many sabha Office bearers).
I can recall that MDR concert will never be good if good accompaniments are not there as he gives many opportunities to be filled by Violin or Mridangam.You can see that the Parvati concerts in which generally accompaniments are of high quality.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Jul 2016, 14:09

thenpaanan wrote:
Nick H wrote: it sounds convincing. Does science agree?
He most likely needs a "typically" or some such weasel word. There are some females who can go lower than most males and vice versa and so also for other features of the human voice. So the two voices may not be distinguishable in every single case. Perhaps we can agree that what he says is true on average.

The on-average-but-with-exceptions difference in frequency range is undeniable, but TMK seems to infer that it goes beyond that. Any thoughts?

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 14 Jul 2016, 14:42

Yes, HNB, I am also "old school" and look out for solid accompaniment.

A fact that should cheer us both is that as vocalists are consolidating their position in the star hierarchy, they are giving more importance to accompaniment. Many have told me that they prefer to have the same good accompaniments as far as possible.

Parvathi was a one-of-a-kind place, where accompanists like Sri Raghu, Sri Lalgudi, Sri Vellore, Sri MC, loved to come and perform. They would typically accompany 2/3 concerts in each festival.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 14 Jul 2016, 16:40

HKB Sir,
Individual transformation resulting in collective transformation is realistic. Collective transformation does occur but constrained by time and space. Individual transforming discerning listener and discerning listeners becoming collective, art form is secured of support, continuum. We should laud the good work of event managers, like Nada Surabhi in creating opportunities for the meritorious and popular artists. Rasikas attending and supporting the practitioners of art-performers, teachers and event managers is the key result area. Discerning listeners must sincerely work for music appreciation to spread and reach a critical mass. Achievement is measure of their commitment and contribution. Let the good work gain fresh impetus and momentum in the interest of art form, pleasure in its experience, its growth and development, transcending the ascribed limitations like gender role etc.
Performance is team effort. Team leader should have the support of good team contributing. Musical thinking, ideas, imagination, creativity, personal equation and comfort play the role for forming the teams. You know much better as a successful team leader, mission leader!

munirao2001

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 14 Jul 2016, 16:51

Nick.H.Sir,

TMK seems to infer that it goes beyond that.

Aesthetic in music is one and same. Attention, sensitivity, expectation and receptivity causes variance in effects in listening experience and aesthetic determination. Determination and its expression/communication/appreciation is conditional. Aesthetic in music is beyond conditional, individual or a group, in universal in enjoyment of pleasure. TMK's writing is truth, retold.

munirao2001

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 14 Jul 2016, 21:00

Nick H wrote: The on-average-but-with-exceptions difference in frequency range is undeniable, but TMK seems to infer that it goes beyond that. Any thoughts?

I guess his experience has been different than mine.

If you go beyond just surface differences, there are variations in approach and content from one artist to another and you may ask if that is gender-based. Once I was singing in an ensemble and I was the vocal lead but the preamble ragam alapanai (such as in a dance program) for the first piece was to be provided by the flute player. I remember at our first practice she paused a long while and when asked said "Oh, I am thinking of how to play a gents Saurashtram." That was the first time I even became aware of the existence of gender distinctions in ragam portrayal. I don't know if this or something similar is what TMK was referring to but I have come to think that whatever slanting of your approach comes from your teacher/mentor and what is generally seen as appropriate or inappropriate by gender-based cultural norms. I would like to know what accompanists who accompany singers of both genders have observed.

But to be clear there are two questions here: are there discernible and repeated differences between the musical presentations by the two genders and are these differences intrinsic to gender? My guess is that the respective answers are yes and no.

-Thenpaanan

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 14 Jul 2016, 21:53

Thenappan,
I am not a musician. I am listening to music for 60+years. I can clearly perceive gender-based differences in musical output, as I listed in my opening post.
I also feel ragas and compositions and sahitya have gender orientations. It is a question of rasa. But I do not want anyone to apply gender-based discrimination for that reason. I am also not implying anything cheap or erotic.
I see 3 elements of gender influence:
1. Female/male voice.
2. Raga & manodharma differences.
3. Sahitya and rasa-based differences.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 15 Jul 2016, 08:53

shankar vaidyanathan wrote: I crave quality sound recordings of Male vocalists with top notch accompanying artists. The recording quality is important.

You have consigned oldie tape lovers to an exalted status of some realized musical souls! We transcend layers of faults ( hissing sound , raspy voices, omitted stretches of music) to reach for the bliss

. As GB paraphrased in his mukti aLikkum tillai mUlatanarai kanDu:

muppAzhum tAnDi appAlE ninRu Anandam kanDOm! -

I mean only musical bliss!

shankar vaidyanathan · Post by **shankar vaidyanathan** » 15 Jul 2016, 09:31

Sri Thenpaanan:

I'm going to say yes to your second question too that there are intrinsic differences.

I believe that females are naturally gifted in practicing emotional art music or other fine arts. I have (arm chair) theorized that the emotional maturity and development of a female child outsteps males by at least 5-7 years for the same peer group from the beginning so they seem to have an inherent and unfair (?!) advantage. Their life experiences are totally different. I also believe that they may have been prewired in the evolution of human history.

However, I won't say that the above genetic predisposition makes females into better musicians. Great musicians practice their art for their own pleasure. More importantly, great musicians are just the mediums or vehicles through which great music is given to the world. Whether said musicians happen to be male or female is mere happenstance.