Gender and Carnatic music

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
thenpaanan
Posts: 671
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Gender and Carnatic music

Post by thenpaanan »

Rsachi wrote:Thenappan,
I am not a musician. I am listening to music for 60+years. I can clearly perceive gender-based differences in musical output, as I listed in my opening post.
I also feel ragas and compositions and sahitya have gender orientations. It is a question of rasa. But I do not want anyone to apply gender-based discrimination for that reason. I am also not implying anything cheap or erotic.
I see 3 elements of gender influence:
1. Female/male voice.
2. Raga & manodharma differences.
3. Sahitya and rasa-based differences.
I am not saying there are no differences. I am saying these differences in #2 and #3 above are not intrinsic to gender but rather culturally induced.

I dont know exactly what you mean by compositions/sahitya having gender orientation. Going on a limb here I am assuming that you are talking about something like, say, a lullaby. A typically female singer may sing it differently from a typically male singer but we learn these things from the milieu. But I also have listened to male singers with astonishingly delicate voices and I feel that the male singer could be trained to sing just like that typical female singer singing a lullaby.

Please elaborate on ragas having gender orientations. I have heard this concept of rag and ragini in Hindustani music but I never thought that had a solid basis in experience. For example take the association of megh malhar with rain. It is just our training that makes us think of rain when someone sings megh malhar, nothing intrinsic to those notes or phrases.

-T

Nick H
Posts: 9473
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Gender and Carnatic music

Post by Nick H »

Sing anything at the right time of year in the right place and it will rain sooner or later.

Coincidence, causation... and all that :twisted:

(But if anyone was singing that stuff here in Chennai, last December 1st, I heartily hope that, this year, they will keep quiet! :lol: )

Rsachi
Posts: 5039
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: Gender and Carnatic music

Post by Rsachi »

Thenappan,
First of all, a disclaimer: I am stating what is my experience, I am not a Bharata Muni :)

Ragas sound to me as being full of rasa. Rasa or mood or bhava if you like. Rakti raga, etc. I agree the treatment can be quite varied ( Prof RV's presentation cited elsewhere is full of examples). But when I hear a raga performed or sung in a certain way, I feel its rasa in a certain way, and it is masculine, feminine or gender-independent. Is this conditioning or a cultural bias? Maybe. But the final effect of all conditioning, learning, and experience has quite often a gender bias. I feel Begada is very masculine. Also Athana. I feel Nilambari, Yadukula Kambhoji, Behag, Khamach, Kapi,etc. as feminine. I am sure others may disagree,

Sahitya is full of references and contexts. It is full of rasa - again I feel it is having the G bias in many cases if not all. If a song describes the feeling that I have lost my way, it is evening time, I want to get home, the rasa has no gender context. But when I add that I am a mother, looking to rush home to feed my child, it is feminine. If I say that robbers are about to enter the village, I want to rush and stand guard over the village, it is a masculine sentiment.
Remember it is all my personal feeling. I hoped/hope that others tell what they feel not their opinion of what is proper, correct, or technically certified experience (!)

Postscript: Nick, you and I may think that rain and Megmalhar singing have really only an accidental correlation, but I know there is something called Swara-yoga, where they say one's feeling, thought and bodily orientation can resonate with specific environmental elements and create specific outcomes with varying scales of observable impact. When I heard about all this in a Bihar School of Yoga workshop, I realised that I don't know enough to pooh pooh the idea that Deepak can light a lamp and Amrutavarshini can bring down rain.

hnbhagavan
Posts: 1664
Joined: 21 Jun 2008, 22:06

Re: Gender and Carnatic music

Post by hnbhagavan »

I salute all the Vidushis and Vidwans especially the present generation who are pursuing the Carnatic Music career in spite of various hurdles.It is not easy to progress as you can if you chose say any other career-Engineer/Doctor where minimum success is ensured.All that one does is sincerely study with the help of numerous assistance and join formal course.
This career is highly competitive and continuously needs support from organisers,Sponsors and general Rasikas.
Ir respect of gender,credit goes to all the Vidwans and Vidushis of yester years who laid such solid foundation to our CM.
I am amazed at the number of artists in the Upa Pakavadyam who are supporting the main artists of today.

Ananth
Posts: 133
Joined: 14 Feb 2006, 14:04

Re: Gender and Carnatic music

Post by Ananth »

Interesting topic.

I'm in a WhatsApp group where we (try to) exclusively discuss Carnatic and Hindustani music. During the cricket T20 season, some one started a discussion on forming a cricket team of ragas. Some one suggested a men's team and women's team! And everyone came up with lists consisting of two openers, middle order, all-rounder, fast bowlers and spinners. We even had Chinaman bowlers!

What was striking was, there was near unanimous agreement on most of the ragas being either male or female.

A quick list:

Men:
Nattai
Sankarabharanam
Karaharapriya captain
Begada a stylish left-hander a la Wadekar!
Bilahari
Kambhoji
Kedaragoula
Mohanam
....

Women:
Gowlai
Sree
Hindolam
Sahana
Todi
Madhyamavati captain
Kalyani
Surutti
Neelambari
...

You get the drift...

Rsachi
Posts: 5039
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: Gender and Carnatic music

Post by Rsachi »

Very creative imagination!

Bhairavi, Kalyani, Ahiri, Reetigowla, Kuntalavarali, Janaranjani, Poornachandrika, Mandari, Mukhari...

Where?

Ananth
Posts: 133
Joined: 14 Feb 2006, 14:04

Re: Gender and Carnatic music

Post by Ananth »

Kalyani already placed.

Bhairavi, mukhari obviously women.

Ahiri - the Chinaman bowler, but not quite sure on which team. Vakra prayogams meant a spinner.

Note that, the sorting is not based on name but on the raga bhavam. And of course highly subjective.

We really could not make up our minds on, for example, Shanmukapriya and Keeravani.

Rsachi
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Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: Gender and Carnatic music

Post by Rsachi »

Shanmukhapriya is a mustachioed left-hand batsman like Shikhar Dhawan.
Keeravani is a pigtailed redhead offspin bowler woman from New Zealand who tosses up the ball and spins it viciously to ask all kinds of questions of the batsmen(!).

kvchellappa
Posts: 3637
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Gender and Carnatic music

Post by kvchellappa »

It is interesting that by the drift of the discussion, gender difference in music is presumed.
Somehow, Kalyani looks to me to be masculine and majestic, though majestic is applied to queen also.
Sankarabharanam sounds not so masculine. What about Pantuvarali and Purvikalyani?
Incidentally is the captain ragam KHP (perhaps the youngest of the major ragas) scalar or rakthi?

Rsachi
Posts: 5039
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: Gender and Carnatic music

Post by Rsachi »

KVC,
Yes, as I said right in the beginning, music is full of gender connotations for me. Call it my failing :D
I feel Shankarabharanam to be clearly masculine, and Kalyani feminine! Apart from our own conditioning over time by cultural "tags" for these ragas, eg Dakshinamurte/Akashayalingavibho/... Kamalambam Bhajare, Bhajare re chitta Balambikam..., there must be a deeper psycho-melodic association.
Kharaharapriya is for me masculine, but romantic like Lord Byron. See the plethora of janyas, all so wonderful, full of rakti, derived from KHP...

kvchellappa
Posts: 3637
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Gender and Carnatic music

Post by kvchellappa »

How far is KHP really a father raga, being much later than many of its 'progeny'? Was KHP there before Thyagaraja?
I have no problem with identifying it as male, it has the command and bhava for it.

Rsachi
Posts: 5039
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: Gender and Carnatic music

Post by Rsachi »

I always thought it is a very ancient raga! There is a belief that it was the first scale taught to music students before Purandara Dasa deployed Mayamalavagowla.
I quote from Carnatica website:
The Sadja Grama of ancient music is more or less equal to this raga.

Kharaharapriya is a Murchanakaraka Mela raga and when the notes r,g,m,p and n are taken as Adhara Sadjam, the ragas Hanumatodi, Natabhairavi, Mechakalyani, Harikambhoji, and Dheerashankarabharanan are derived.

It is equivalent to the Dorian mode of the traditional or church modes and to the ancient-Greek Phrygian tonos. This is seen in the maqams of the Middle East, jazz, flamenco and in Irish folk traditions.

Among the Trinity, it is Thyagaraja who has only composed in this raga. It is mentioned in Sangita Ratnakara where Sarangadeva states that this raga features the svaras of Sama Veda. It is said that Lord Shiva is delighted with the rendering of Sama Vedam and hence, the name harapriya is apt for this raga, meaning ‘a favorite of Lord Shiva’.

Prof Sambamoorthy states as much and says Kharaharapriya is the same as the Suddha svara saptaka scale of Sama Veda, mentioned 3000 years ago!

Ananth
Posts: 133
Joined: 14 Feb 2006, 14:04

Re: Gender and Carnatic music

Post by Ananth »

Why khp is captain in my book:
It has the wisdom (deep timeless bhavam)
It has the experience, having borne / mentored many.

It's the Dhoni to Sankarabharanam's Sachin !

Purely subjective of course.
Last edited by Ananth on 24 Jul 2016, 11:56, edited 1 time in total.

Rsachi
Posts: 5039
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: Gender and Carnatic music

Post by Rsachi »

I will compare Kharaharapriya to the river Narmada, with its cascades, copious rush of waters, the silvery swirl, the marble valley, the green forests and sacred spaces it touches constantly.
Image

kvchellappa
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Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Gender and Carnatic music

Post by kvchellappa »

Was there any composition in KHP set to that raga by the lyricist himself before Thyagaraja?
Quote:
Dr. Srivatsa then opened the discussion by tracing the origin of the raga to the 18th century and explained the meaning of the name - "slayer of the rakshasa Khara". Ramakarnamrita by Adi Sankara has the first sloka set to Kharaharapriya, he said. “The child is the father of man and in the Carnatic music world Kharaharapriya can be said to be its equal as it is a prachina ragam. The Sangeetha Ratnakara of the 13th century talks about ‘Sri’ as the purna prasiddhi raga and Sri Venkatamakhi also had accorded importance to Sriragam .The inception of Kharaharapriya into the musical arena was in the later 18th century before the advent of the musical trinity. Among the trinity, Saint Thyagaraja alone has composed in Kharaharapriya . However Kharaharapriya did not have either the Keerthi or Prasiddhi then”.
Unquote from http://carnatica.net/nvr/kh-raganubhava-report.htm

Rsachi
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Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: Gender and Carnatic music

Post by Rsachi »

Raga Sri (in Muthuswami Dikshitar paddhati) is the same as KHP. We cannot ignore the points made by Prof Sambamoorthy

kvchellappa
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Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Gender and Carnatic music

Post by kvchellappa »

Sri ragam is different from KHP in lakshna (Sri: srmapns’/sn’pmrgrs, or s’npdnpmrgrs acc. to MD, whereas KHP is sampoorna ragam) and as you listen.
As I see, KHP strain was there before 18th century as many of the present day ragas were in some other form or name, but the raga blossomed forth only after Thyagaraja. There is no record of any earlier composer having used it. Purandaradasa and Annamayya compositions have been set to tune later. We do not seem to have the record of their notations.
My curiosity was whether KHP is scalar or has prayogas that define it better.

Rsachi
Posts: 5039
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: Gender and Carnatic music

Post by Rsachi »

KVC,
What i meant was that the name of Kharaharapriya is Sri in the nomenclature followed by the Dikshitar school. Please see the deacription of 22nd melakarta (KHP) in the Sangita Sampradaya Pradarshini. I also mentioned that this raga scale is the one used in Samaveda in ancient times, and is referred to in the Sangita Ratnakara 13C CE. So the name doesn't matter, the raga is an ancient one. Kafi thaat of HM is a big one also and this raga is a big one for them also.
Image

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