Basis of ascertaining parent raaga

[rajgopalraog]

The swaras in Raaga Mohana ( S R G P D ) do appear in four Melakartha raagas viz.,
Hari Kambhoji (28th Melakartha),
Dheera Shankarabharanam (29th Melakartha),
Vachaspati (64th Melakartha) and
Mecha Kalyani (65th Melakartha.

On what basis raaga Mohana is said to be a janya raga of Harikambhoji ?

[kvchellappa]

I heard that it is included under the first melakartha, harikambodhi for mohanam.

[rajgopalraog]

Thank you kvchellappa for your quick response. Can this principle (first Melakartha) be safely applied for the rest of the janya raagas ?

[kvchellappa]

I do not know. I heard this in an interview of Sanjay and also read it somewhere. I am sure some knowledgeable person will answer.

[vasanthakokilam]

Right, CM takes a syntactic approach and the rule is 'smallest melakarta number' for breaking the tie. In that sense, it is strictly a classification method with not much consideration to raga bhava relationship. So calling it a parent raga ( in a relationship sense ) is really not appropriate but that is what we normally do.

In HM, they take a more semantic approach. If you go with that thinking, Mohanam will fall under 65

[bala747]

"If you go with that thinking, Mohanam will fall under 65"

As should Hamsadhwani.

Actually if you think about it, Malayamarutham is considered a janya of Ramapriya, not Chakravakam. So it's not a universal rule, the smallest mk number.

[kvchellappa]

Sri T S Parthasarathi lists manasa etulo - Malayamarutham under MK 16.
Sri Ranga Ramanuja Iyengar lists dhanyudevvado under MK 16.
Sri Rama Seva Mandali, Bengaluru, added in one of their souvenirs a list of 2116 ragas. In it, they have listed Malayamarutham as janyam of 16.
However, Hamsadhwani is listed under 29 by both T S P and R R I, though if the first MK rule is followed, it must be under 27. Sanjay also expressed surprise about it and mentioned that by its swaroopa (G and N), it would be more appropriately under 65.
So , there is more to it than meets the eye perhaps.

[vasanthakokilam]

>"there is more to it than meets the eye perhaps"

Yes. But not in the CM way of classifying janyas. There is really not much more to it than the arbitrary rule stated above, possibly with some exceptions.

Your statement above most definitely applies if we think in terms of raga swaroopa, bhava and rasa.

The CM method with its focus on syntax has a very potent practical benefit. Given an Aro/Ava in solfa form, the melakarta reference quickly tells you which swara variations to use. That is quite powerful. This rule of 'lowest melakarta number' loses that one potent benefit if the tie is broken in favor of an unknown/not-in-vogue melakarta. Given a choice between 27 and 29, I will take 29 any day. 29 immediately communicates which swaras to use since it is so widely known. Having sacrificed the musically meaningful aspects of parent-child relationships, let us at least use a mapping that is of some practical value.

One may ask 'what are then the in-vogue melakartas?'. There can be debates about it at the edges but at the core, there is no dispute. They are '29, 28, 22, 15, 8 and 65'. If there is a tie with a melakarta from this group and one outside, use the number from this group. If there is a tie with in this group, yeah then toss a coin or pick the one with the lower melakarta number.

[mohan]

I like your approach VK.

I am sure it has been discussed before on this forum but the melakartha - janya raga relationship is merely for easy identification and classification purposes. Many janya ragas predate the melakarta they are classified under.

Also, many of the older ragas are bhashanga, ie they take an additional external note that is not part of the melakartha (eg bhairavi, bilahari, kapi, kambhoji). This further complicates the mela - janya classification system.

[RaviSri]

take an additional external note that is not part of the melakartha (eg bhairavi, bilahari, kapi, kambhoji)

kApi "became" a janya raga towards the end of the 19th century. It was not so before. It belonged to the 22nd mela and if you look at SSP and the kriti given there, "venkatAchalapatE", and listen to a recording of the song, either of Alamelu Mani or of Kalpakam Swaminathan, available on youtube, you'll find that it is not bhashanga. I have learnt "inta saukhyamani nE" of Thyagaraja from K.V.Srinivasa Iyengar's 'tyAgarAja hridayam' this way and it is totally different from the usual rendition, though KVS attributes both the niShAdhas to the raga. I have shunned the N3 in my learning and stuck to N2. Shyama Sastri's 'akhilANDEshwari' is also in the original kApi. The present concoction of the raga can be safely called pIlu. It is poor Thyagaraja who has suffered for want of 'original Thanjavur kApi'.

[VK RAMAN]

When did the janya raaga originate and how was name for each raaga titled. Any stories behind it.