Is the voice affected if the person sings in two different octaves?

[HarishankarK]

Namastey Rasikas,

I started learning Carnatic music around mid 2014 and learn't from a Vidvan for about 8 months. I have a medium pitch voice (very slightly feminine especially when I am singing but not when I am talking normally). My shruti was 2.5 when I was learning in 2014 and my age is 35.

Now I have resumed learning Carnatic music since the past three weeks and in my batch there are two other gents- both of them have been learning in shruti 1 with this teacher for the past 1 year. Initially we all started learning at shruti 1.5 but in yesterday's class the other two persons said that 1.5 is too high for them and they are unable to sing comfortably. So the teacher (he is around mid seventies, so shruti 1 is comfortable for him too) suggested that we all sing in 1. I mentioned that for my voice at 1 shruti, I will struggle in the lower octaves. But the teacher just said go on, I think you can sing in 1. It will be alright with practise.

Honestly, now I'm a bit depressed because I usually have a bright voice (ghaneer) and with shrutis 1.5 and 1 my voice has really mellowed down (very soft). I have always felt that if I practise in shruti 2 or 2.5, I am more comfortable to sing later at a lower shruti. My wife suggested that I also practise in shruti 2 or 2.5 along with shruti 1 as a solution to my predicament !
Is it alright to sing in 1 shruti in the class and practise in 1 shruti at home and then also practise the same varnams/keerthanas in say maybe 2 shruti at home so that I can keep practising at high shruti also? Will that harm my voice in any way? Or will that create any confusion etc.,?

Thankful to anyone who can help me answer my question,
Harish

[SrinathK]

2.5 kattai is actually high for an average male voice, and the fact that your teacher wants group singing in the classroom will not help matters (the bane of the individual learner as I see it). If you take your voice out of your natural range, it will suffer and in your case, your upper octave and power will become weak in the long run. Your teacher should take care of this and not force you to sing all the time in this pitch. The other students will have more difficulty because it is much harder to sing in a higher key than it is to adjust to a lower key, so naturally they didn't want to risk it.

It's enough to adjust the key for classroom's sake and then quickly come back to your natural key at home.

My suggestion is that it is more important to know what you are singing and how to sing it (the details to be worked out in your mind before you sing, that will minimize vocal strain). In the classroom, this is more important than just singing repetitively. Therefore save your best vocal efforts for your practice at home.

First focus on improving your range and power in the lower octave in your natural pitch of 2 or 2.5 kattai, that will help take care of the issue when singing in class in a lower key if you have more range -- early morning mandhara sthayi practice is best for this as KVN has advised. But focus on getting the gamakas, the tala, the sanagtis and words correctly in class, then at home, practice them in your natural pitch only. Do some vocal exercises to get your voice warmed up to your natural pitch and then only practice your class material. If you can, do some rehearsals at home and record it on mobile and show it to your teacher (if he does not object to you practicing in 2.5 kattai) and let him be satisfied that you grasped things ok.

Don't attempt to practice in 1 kattai at home and then again in 2.5 kattai, that will spoil the voice -- we use only relative pitch in CM so adjusting to another key is not at all difficult for class's sake. And if you one day come to performing level, don't agree to any duet performances with anyone who is not near your natural pitch.

[HarishankarK]

Don't attempt to practice in 1 kattai at home and then again in 2.5 kattai, that will spoil the voice -- we use only relative pitch in CM so adjusting to another key is not at all difficult for class's sake. And if you one day come to performing level, don't agree to any duet performances with anyone who is not near your natural pitch.

Can you explain what you mean here please? What I intend to do is first practise the varnam/keertanams in 1 shruti and when I am confident over a few days. Then practise the same in 2 shruti. Is this fine?
Thank you very much for the suggestions/advice.

[SrinathK]

Don't do that. Sing in your natural pitch and develop your lower octave. Before starting any practice first warm up the voice fully in 2.5 kattai and then practice. The important thing is to master the phrases and swaras, then you can easily adjust for your classmates.

You will have to compromise a little in class, but if your lower octave range is increased, this will not be a problem. Do not habituate your voice to singing in 1 kattai at home.

If you record your classes for reference then software can help you raise the pitch by 1.5 semitones and allow you to sing along in 2.5 kattai

[HarishankarK]

Thank you very much SrinathK. Will follow. Appreciate your kind help.

[ganesh_mourthy]

While you sing comfortably in 2.5 kattai , can you also touch the upper Pa? I spent a long time to understand what actually the comfortable zone is. I had problem in 1.5 and I lowered to 1 then to B sharp, then to A sharp and then still I had problem to articulate at Ma , pa. Actually you can make a quick touch but articulating is the point . Then I understood one has to do a slight modulation once you reach a spot , I do that at D which is also my preferred. At least it sounds good to me . . If you don't do that modulation it might be pain within a few seconds of continuous singing at ga2 , ma2 notes.

[HarishankarK]

While you sing comfortably in 2.5 kattai , can you also touch the upper Pa?

Yes I can.

[ganesh_mourthy]

That is quite encouraging. Personally, I find it really hard to sing in two different kattais without a shruthi box. I started with c sharp and recently wanted to move to D . Even after a few months, when I sing without a shruthi box I see that my Pa and upper Sa tends to slide down to the pitch corresponding to C sharp. It is by force of habit. I need to correspond to a pitch or tuner first and then sing if I do not use the shruthi box. How do you manage your 2 kattais , with guru and at home, in the absence of a shruthi box. Does it work?

[SrinathK]

I cannot do it at all without a tanpura or a recording either. And it is always much harder to sing higher than lower. I also think one shouldn't raise one's pitch without reserve range.

In general what I have found is that if you need to hold the top P without strain, then you should have enough to get to D2 which means if you want to raise your pitch you need a) even more range in reserve and b) to verify that you are indeed singing in a pitch that robs you of tone ans power and c) that you can sing in the new pitch all day without strain -- the gamakas will become harder in a higher pitch.

[VK RAMAN]

Different srutis need to be used for students that does not match with the teacher. Each student may be different and is it not necessary to teach the students in their srutis? Does Teaching 8 to 12 hours a week in different srutis affect the teacher

[ganesh_mourthy]

Mostly upper Pa is "touch and come" in Carnatic, and I have not heard many articulating at that area. MS does, Radha Jayalakshmi does, a few others , but most others do that part sloppily and there is no crispness. Sometimes, we also underestimate our voice. Initially, I was so confused between the volume and pitch when I went to higher octave. I used to think I have touched a note then only to realize I have not , but blurted out some notes. It used to be pain. If you don't learn the right techniques , upper octave is a pain even for 10 min singing . And esp if you are keeping a huge difference in pitch . I would suggest to desist from abruply lowering from D sharp to C . It can be confusing and you may not get a good note grasp . It is ok for half note to adjust . But anything more than that could be confusing.

[SrinathK]

It doesn't help that modern apartment houses despite their advantages are really poor environments for real singing (and of course weak upper octave) -- it's a curse to keep crooning so as to not to disturb someone in the next room -- I very much prefer an empty house or an open terrace. Their acoustics are good, which makes you think you are much louder than what you really are -- in reality a fairly ok sound to your ear is inaudible without a mic. But alas... right now I have to wait a bit longer to hopefully get the privacy I need.

[HarishankarK]

How do you manage your 2 kattais , with guru and at home, in the absence of a shruthi box. Does it work?

I always practise with shruti box on. Usually in 2.5 kattai. But since last 3-4 weeks, I am learning with a group where the shruti is 1.
And that is why I raised this question.
Now based on SrinathK's response, I am practising at home in 2.5 shruti the lessons that my teacher has taught us last Sunday.
I will see coming Sunday that if I can suddenly make the shift in class to 1 kattai or not

[ganesh_mourthy]

HariShankar

What are you learning now? Kirthanai? And how many are there in your group?

We will try to find out if there is a solution. But those two varied shruti is likely to cause some disrupt in your singing.

[srikant1987]

It is somewhat harder to lower one's shruti and strengthen one's mandra sthAyi. By applying more energy and force (and shouting a little if necessary), you can hit higher notes anyway. Also, if you sing too much tAra sthAyi, your voice will get "scrubbed" (tEyndu pOy viDum) and you will temporarily further lose lower-sthAyi audibility.

It is recommended that you get good sleep, and in the morning, soon after you wake up, sing lots of mandra sthAyi, eschewing higher notes. [You might be surprised at just how low you can go at first!] Try to STAY AWAY from higher pitch for at least a couple of hours after you wake up. This includes singing and talking.

[HarishankarK]

HariShankar

What are you learning now? Kirthanai? And how many are there in your group?

We will try to find out if there is a solution. But those two varied shruti is likely to cause some disrupt in your singing.

Thank you for even considering to help me. Much obliged to you Sir.

I am learning the Darbar varnam -Chalamela, Malayamarutham Varnam and Hamsadhwani krithi Vinayaka Ninnu Vina. We sing/practise all these three items in every class. My shruti is 2.5 or even 2 but there are two other guys - there is shruti is 1. And the teacher started at 1.5 but now at the insistence of the other two he is making us sing in shruti 1.
I don't blame the other two guys, they are very good and friendly and also their shruti is normal for guys. It's me who has a high pitched voice with shruti 2.5. But all I am asking is if I can sing in class with the group in shruti 1 and also keep practising at home in shruti 2 or 2.5?

Thanks

[SrinathK]

Yes. It is not that difficult at all in class since you are group singing, you won't be doing it for that long also. When I have been in group singing sessions, we have to adjust all the time for the ladies, and sing even 4 tones below normal. It's easier for us to sing low than for them to sing high. Just ensure that you come back home and sing in your normal pitch as usual -- always warm up to your natural pitch before singing anything.

Just keep us updated as to how things go in the next few weeks.

[SrinathK]

@srikant1987 There is a lining of mucus in throat that is at its maximum just after getting up -- this thickens the vocal folds, making your voice lower pitched and gives more reach in the lower octave in the morning (if you sleep too late, this can become rather too thick, making it difficult to get your voice warmed up, perhaps this is why they insisted on getting up early in the morning). Over a day of singing and speaking however, that gets worn down steadily and at the end of the day, your cords would be thinned out. This means your voice will gain more reach in the higher notes, while it may not be possible for the folds to make full contact while singing the lowest notes, which means you will lose that extra range you had in the morning and might not even hit the lowest notes with as much clarity either. That's when it's better to go higher. When you find that your lower range is really getting compromised, it's time to stop practice. You could risk inflammation and vocal nodules.

Hindustani singers know this very well, it's why they never go the extremes of their vocal range at the very start of a performance or may even start in the lower octave. It's also why they start slowly and then go for higher speeds.

As modern singers do not have to exert their voices as much as they used to, their lower octaves have gotten deeper and deeper, but the thrilling fortissmo in the upper octave of yesteryear has been replaced by the falsetto / head voice. http://www.become-a-singing-master.com/ ... setto.html

[mohan]

Harish - I suggest you practice in your natural sruti (2.5) at home and use 1 only in class!

[HarishankarK]

Harish - I suggest you practice in your natural sruti (2.5) at home and use 1 only in class!

Yes, I will do that. Appreciate your advice Mohan ji. Thank you.

[shankar vaidyanathan]

Harishankark:

At your learning level, the real solution is to have private one on one lessons and not be in a group. You have already taken the great step of finding the 70 year old male teacher.

For reference, I learnt Hindustani and my Guru worked with me for close to six months at the start to search "Where is your Sa?!" As we progressed, he offered me the option of going up in pitch by 0.5 but recommended that I stay at my natural pitch. He was very focused on developing Mandhra Sthayi range.

[VK RAMAN]

Group learning has its own downside and very few Teachers in India have time to individualized classes. I would prefer individualized classes so the teacher can teach the student at student's sruti instead of teacher's sruti. Many teachers even would not know what sruti their student has to sing or do they help them identify the student's comfy sruti.

[ganesh_mourthy]

I am not sure how many hours you spend at home and with your Guru. If it is fifty fifty, then or if the time spent with Guru is more , then if you should think twice as you are singing off your shruthi for a much longer time to have a permanent impact on your voice. . In fact, you don't even need to be singing in a group as you are moving on with varnam and to keerthanai now. The group is useful ( especially when in close shruthi) for abhyasa lessons, as they are taxing to memorize the patterns. Later it is more subtleties which you will miss in a group. You will miss many nuances in a group learning. If it is OK with you , you can come on skype sometime during weekend so that let me see how well you are getting along.

This is just for a feedback and please proceed with whatever good suggestions our fellow rasikas are giving you.

[thenpaanan]

First thing to keep in mind is that one's voice is like any other muscle. It has its sweet spots and its challenges.

Second thing to keep in mind is that like any other mechanical activity such as, say skipping rope, singing is a conscious physical activity only in the early part of the training. After a bit of learning the basics, your body or subconscious takes over and you don't know or control how the body learns from then on. It is a myth that one can learn to a significant extent in one octave and shift it to any octave of your choice later. This is only possible for adepts. As a beginner it is especially important to know where to sing ie. your ideal range. In Western music where you have a piano and the teacher can sing scales with you for a wide range, you can get a feel for your sweet spot by trial and error with various sruthis. We don't do that in Carnatic music so you cannot easily get the same. So what is the risk? You may end up in a situation where even when you are singing by yourself and not with your teacher your voice may subconsciously drift back to the sruthi that you used in class, with the net result that you will be seen as singing off-key. You can see this most often with young kids' classes. You will see that some kids are consistently off-sruthi. This is most likely because they practice at home at a different sruthi.

One possible avenue is to listen but not sing in the sruthi that makes you uncomfortable. Then change the sruthi to your own and then have the teacher listen and correct. Makes it awkward and nearly impossible to do group singing but, in my opinion, group singing can wait until you have some training and practice under your belt.

-Thenpaanan