Exhilarating

Purist · Post by **Purist** » 10 Aug 2016, 10:07

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES1BvE0ovBg

OMG!!! Great team work . I haven't heard such a thing in the past. Manodharmam at its Best.
Can there be any doubts about future of CM ?.

thanjavooran · Post by **thanjavooran** » 10 Aug 2016, 13:26

Excellent ! Yes. Manodharmam at its best. Future of CM is in the hands such efficient youngsters. Thanx for sharing.
Thanjavooran
10 08 2016

vilomachapu · Post by **vilomachapu** » 10 Aug 2016, 16:22

Funny. IS this Carnatic Music? With such buffoonery on the prowl and gaining dubious acceptance, the future of CM is certainly bleak. By no stretch of imagination can this be called manodharma. At best it is a circus.

HarishankarK · Post by **HarishankarK** » 10 Aug 2016, 17:21

Purist wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES1BvE0ovBg

OMG!!! Great team work . I haven't heard such a thing in the past. Manodharmam at its Best.
Can there be any doubts about future of CM ?.

Terrible!

HarishankarK · Post by **HarishankarK** » 10 Aug 2016, 17:21

vilomachapu wrote:Funny. IS this Carnatic Music? With such buffoonery on the prowl and gaining dubious acceptance, the future of CM is certainly bleak. By no stretch of imagination can this be called manodharma. At best it is a circus.

Well said!

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 10 Aug 2016, 18:37

With such dogmas on the prowl in this forum - future of CM is great!

Just provide all your definitions of CM

. I could only laugh when I hear Manodharma is Alapanai, Neraval, swarams and tAnam.

This is a glorious tribute to tyAgaraja and his syllabic arrangement and beauty - anything less in fact does not do justice.

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 10 Aug 2016, 20:42

Its definitely not a tribute to that saint; infact mutilating his composition. I can only see their asura sadhakam in getting their self created sangathis.
Garbling starts from the ragam itself!!

isramesh · Post by **isramesh** » 10 Aug 2016, 21:16

After listening to this I am reminded of this post

varsha wrote:https://archive.org/details/AUD20160726WA0000
from whatsapp
why sweeter ? why ? why ???
sruthi !!! sruthi !!! sruthi !!!
less and less of brain
more and more of heart

Yes CM can never be sweeter than HM with such acrobatics

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 10 Aug 2016, 21:28

Hmm... I just heard it fully. Seems to me that some of you old timers don't like young blood -- you have forgotten that you were all once our age too. Don't worry we'll also crib about youth and the bleak future of CM and old gold when we're your age.

Once upon a time a certain upcoming star known as "Mani" was criticized as a self taught rebel who sang too fast with unreal brighas supported by college students... for a while, he was also treated as impure for having acted in films.

Once upon a time another young man also called Mani from Madurai didn't get too many chances because of his experimentations with rare ragas and complex swaras.

A certain Ramanuja Iyengar turned CM into a composition heavy format and is the inspiration for today's purists for whom singing a varnam as anything other than an opener is a heinious blasphemy.

A certain lady called ML Vasanthakumari in her heyday went with all guns blazing and reminded me of Abhishek.

Someone named Subbulakshmi from Madurai had the most supersonic brighas ever heard from a young lady in recorded CM history.

A young hotshot from the village Lalgudi dared to match every leading vidwan's arsenal of tricks and pallavis blow for blow, bodly attempting stuff that others were terrified of going near. He even played his own way instead of how he was taught.

A prodigy from Palakkad had to fight for his place next to Dakshinamoorthy Pillai.

A certain "controversial" musician of today used to bring the roof down with thriller rollercoaster neravals and swaras only 10 years ago. He sings a bit more slowly these days.

A pair of girls once sang like they wanted to beat the "Boat Mail".

A Maharaja among singers was known to always sing newly improvised phrases every time he sang.

A certain Srividya Upasaka brought in Hindustani ragas and phrases and composed in orchestral tunes.

A troubled kid proved once and for all that you can play gamakas on a flute, much to the envy of a senior musician.

A certain saint once dared to refuse the king even, as he knew the murky world of court musicians. He started composing even as a 12 year old, gave life to quite a few ragas and composed an opera on an old love story.

It looks like nothing has changed...

Revere the old and look down on the young. You do envy those unclogged arteries and intact joints, right?

I wonder how it will be to read my own writing after 40 years.

But for now, youth please.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 10 Aug 2016, 22:42

SrinathK wrote: A certain saint once dared to refuse the king even, as he knew the murky world of court musicians. He started composing even as a 12 year old, gave life to quite a few ragas and composed an opera on an old love story.

A certain Rajarathinam from Thiruvaduthurai refused to play standing down from the Palanquin of Mysore Maharaja during Dusserah - saying I am also Nadasvara Chakravarti! By the way he made brigAs more prolific!

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 11 Aug 2016, 07:53

I remember the bulwarks by the shore,
And the fort upon the hill;
The sunrise gun, with its hollow roar,
The drum-beat repeated o'er and o'er,
And the bugle wild and shrill.
And the music of that old song
Throbs in my memory still:
"A boy's will is the wind's will,
And the thoughts of youth are long, long thoughts.
......
......
......
Strange to me now are the forms I meet
When I visit the dear old town;
But the native air is pure and sweet,
And the trees that o'ershadow each well-known street,
As they balance up and down,
Are singing the beautiful song,
Are sighing and whispering still:
"A boy's will is the wind's will,
And the thoughts of youth are long, long thoughts."

And Deering's Woods are fresh and fair,
And with joy that is almost pain
My heart goes back to wander there,
And among the dreams of the days that were,
I find my lost youth again.
And the strange and beautiful song,
The groves are repeating it still:
"A boy's will is the wind's will,
And the thoughts of youth are long, long thoughts."

"

My Lost Youth
By Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems- ... tail/44640
https://archive.org/details/03Raghuvara ... Aja_201608

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 11 Aug 2016, 08:20

Varsha,
Indeed,

The thoughts of past youth are long, long for sure, but, may I say:

Remember the gypsy duo
that trapezed that day
And blew our breath away
They sure seemed hell-bent
in their daring vault
With no thought
Of the present or past
But just having a blast
Like that gun on the rampart;
For
When action exults,
Thoughts hide in crevices
Only to emerge much later
As thoughts of past youth!

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 11 Aug 2016, 08:43

Enjoyable posts of Srinathk, Varsha and RSachi.
It is interesting that the nickname of the one who posted it with admiration is 'Purist'.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 11 Aug 2016, 09:05

Can some connoisseur explain how the rendering by the exuberant team deviate from the raga?
Does a composer expect that a piece of his creation must be sung the way he set it to tune? Then, how can there be manodharma? Do we know authentically in all cases how exactly the composer himself sang it? Then is the praise of Vasudevachar for MS rendering brochevarevearura, Sivan’s praise for LGJ’s enna thavan seithanai, LGJ’s praise for DKJ for a thillana of his, etc. aberration? Several singers have added sangathis to well known krithis, e.g. Vathapi. SSI has added new sangathis to many krithis, said PSN.
I am sure many people enjoyed the acrobatics of the team and all of them may not be as ignorant as I am.

Purist · Post by **Purist** » 11 Aug 2016, 09:51

In posting the link my admiration was for the two artists who produced this amalgam. Consider this- both AR and KMB are
independent performing artists with their own bani's. But for their current association with PSN, their upbringing in music has been from different schools. Yet they could combine like duo brothers,sing without upmanship/intereference, provide new embellishments, interesting swara pattens and so on. I cannot catageroise the whole thing as noise or buffooneryas'vilomachapu' (#3) has put it.
Even great vidwans of past like MVI, GNB, Somu etc would indulge in express swaras and particularly
towards the closing of swaras you wouldn't even hear them in the loud noise of mridangam/ghatam. Can
you term their music -uncarnatic? ( I think Varsha posted GNB's Raghuvara to bring home this.)
In the swaras rendition AR has even brought MMI like 'la la' so nicely blended.

In all there were many brilliant spots in AR/KMB's rendering which prompted me to post, to appreciate their
'sadhakam'.

Purist · Post by **Purist** » 11 Aug 2016, 10:04

# 14 . Good points KVC. Sri Vasudevacharya is reported to have told that it was Balamurali who gave life to his song
'Devadhi Deva' in Sunadavinodini.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 11 Aug 2016, 10:37

their music -uncarnatic? ( I think Varsha posted GNB's Raghuvara to bring home this.

Not quite.
That, ALONG WITH THE POEM , had an intention of bringing out the circular-referenced_ness we all carry from our personal starting points.
We can only go back and forth most of the time. The trend setting element is the privy of few .
I personally feel KBMKs music has touched a heady phase now . I simply love it.A golden mean of many facets of CM.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 11 Aug 2016, 10:54

KBMK now ++
all action, no contemplation ??
Innovation ++

let us give them the space to create. Everything, especially in youth, has first exuberance and takes time to settle down....

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 11 Aug 2016, 15:09

KVC Sir,
You raised few questions and my answers to the questions are, as given below:

Q.1.Does a composer expects that a piece of his creation must be sung the way he set it to tune?
A. Yes, if composer who has composed with notation. But, sangati ornamentation adding value is appreciated. Yes and No. A tune smith, not giving the notation will accept the changes, if the changes add value. A tune smith will not accept the changes which take away the value.

Q.2. Then, how can there be manodharma?
A. Manodharma is manas in ideation, imagination and creativity; dharmam is righteousness to the lakshana. Performer has the responsibility in learning the composition, appreciate the value in creativity. In performance, performer has to recreate the value in original creativity with flame and flavor of the original. Kruthi performing is one of the modes of manodharma and it is with this ideal.

Q.3. Do we know authentically in all cases how exactly the composer himself sang it?
A. Yes and No. Yes, if the composer's performance recordings are available. Authenticity is to be perceived in the bani, preferably in direct disciples’ patantara, who have the ideal of patantara sudhatvam and uncompromising in practice. No, if there are no notations; recordings; patantara variations in direct disciples.

Q.4. Then is the praise of Vasudevachar for MS rendering brochevarevearura, Sivan’s praise for LGJ’s enna thavan seithanai, LGJ’s praise for DKJ for a thillana of his, etc. aberration?
A. Composer praising the performer is an act in appreciation of learning, performing, contributing and creating popular appeal. Intention of composers praising the popular artist is mainly for his composition gaining the popular appeal. This fact is discernible in their action of not praising the not popular artists.

Q.5. Several singers have added sangathis to well known krithis, e.g. Vathapi. SSI has added new sangathis to many krithis, said PSN.
A. Sangati ornamentation has resulted in value addition and also loss of value. Value addition is realized when a great maestro with respect and reverence to the original composer, his ideals and values, 'creates' sangati ornamentation as the extensions of the original creativity of aesthetic beauty and gets established as a bani. Sangati ornamentation for the sake of supporting the style of a performer with the value of novelty and for seeking applause, not adding any value addition to the original is unhealthy practice but well established in practice!

These questions were raised and discussed in detail at the Sadas of Music Academy with great maestros also lecturing and demonstrating in the past. I am not aware of the recent past as I have not attended the sadas. Articles written were published in dailies and magazines.

I am not commenting on the AR and KMBMK performance, as I have not heard it.

munirao2001

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 11 Aug 2016, 16:52

Is the way MSG/NArmada paly on the violin manavinalakim the same as Thyagaraja notated?
Visakha Hari talks of how LGJ notated some Thyagaraja krithis intuitively. Does it pass muster?
TMK has done research based on SSP and proposed how it must be sung as per Dikshitar or Subbarama Sastri. Now, does it make the versions now current (I do not think the proposal of TMK has been followed by others) impure?

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 11 Aug 2016, 17:37

KVC Sir,

1. Thyagaraja did not notate his compositions. His direct disciples had notated the compositions.

2. Visaka Hari must have referred to the Thyagaraja compositions which were in karnaparampara but not notated by his direct disciples. LGJ Sir belong to Tyagaraja direct disciples sishya parampara. Judgement has to be made with reference to the karnaparampara version only. If the lyric is not in karnaparampara and it is only grandhastha, it is lyric by Thyagaraja and set to tune by LGJ Sir.

3. Music Academy entrusted the translation work of Sangita Sampradaya Pradarshini to Vijay Siva and TMK. TMK learning the compositions as notated by Subbarama Sastri in SSP, performed to demonstrate the compositions as per the notations for historical audio record and posterity. TMK did not propose that SSP must be followed as only authentic and other patantharams to be avoided. On value judgement of pure or impure, notations of Dikshitar or his direct sishya parampara's, either karnaparampara versions or their notated versions becoming the bani and aesthetic values only determine and support. Truth is there are differences between SSP and Bani versions and Bani versions judged with higher values by great maestros, in the past, and are in practice.

munirao2001

vilomachapu · Post by **vilomachapu** » 11 Aug 2016, 18:22

I can only see their asura sadhakam

Asuras they are indeed. Apart from facial contortions a la Semmangudi, idiotic and barking brigas and sangatis, what is so grand about this cacophony? And TMK's highly objectionable and totally wrong interpretations of Subbarama Diksitar's SSP has been brought in. Just because he is popular his idiosyncrocies are been adored as being authentic. TMK has neither understood SSP nor MD. This is the truth. And the less said about these two so called singers, the better. Shouting and facial contortions and dancing on stage is not part of CM, neither is singing as they please without a devil may care attitude can be called manodharma.

vilomachapu · Post by **vilomachapu** » 11 Aug 2016, 18:25

Music Academy entrusted the translation work of Sangita Sampradaya Pradarshini to Vijay Siva and TMK. TMK learning the compositions as notated by Subbarama Sastri in SSP, performed to demonstrate the compositions as per the notations for historical audio record and posterity.

Who gave you this info sir? SSP project by TMK was a self appointed thing. MA did not give any project to TMK or Vijay Siva. What TMK sings is not as per notations of SSP but what he thinks are correct. TMK did not know how to read the SSP. As simple as that.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 11 Aug 2016, 20:01

Raghuvara by KVN

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 11 Aug 2016, 20:20

TMK's highly objectionable and totally wrong interpretations of Subbarama Diksitar's SSP has been brought in. Just because he is popular his idiosyncrocies are been adored as being authentic. TMK has neither understood SSP nor MD. This is the truth.

What TMK sings is not as per notations of SSP but what he thinks are correct. TMK did not know how to read the SSP. As simple as that.

Well said and I second this . If we look into the SSP notations and compare with the present versions available in other schools with an unbiased view ( I say unbiased), we can draw the following conclusions:

1. Sri Subbarama Dikshithar was very much candid to his tradition (and also to the tradition which he hailed from).

2. SD has notated in his book, very strangely, all the krithis in mudhal Kaalam!! This can be observed only when we have a basic knowledge about prasa etc and that too only on careful inspection. Without this (if the compositions are sung), the tala avarthanas will get crossed and we will end up singing a version which is similar to the version brought about by the pioneer, Sri TMK who tried to audio document this treatise.

3. TMK also didnt follow the talam exactly, especially compositions in mishra ekam.

4. In few compositions, the sahitya didnt strike exactly the svara as per the notation.

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 11 Aug 2016, 20:27

Truth is there are differences between SSP and Bani versions and Bani versions judged with higher values by great maestros, in the past, and are in practice.

yes, there are differences. But these are seen only between SSP and comparatively recent ones like that of Sri Veena Sunadaram Iyer and his colleagues, (who just copied many songs from the manuscripts possessed by Sri Ambi Deekshithar and didnt even learn from him directly) .

There are virtually no big differences between the notations given in SSP and to those given in the book "Deekshitha Keerthana Prakashika".
It should be remembered that both the books were written by second generation disciples of Sri Deekshithar and they concord well.
It is up to us to select original version.

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 11 Aug 2016, 20:41

Thyagaraja did not notate his compositions. His direct disciples had notated the compositions.

Not all of his direct disciples have notated.
To my knowledge, Valajapet Venkataramana bhagavathar, Krishnasvamy Bhagavathar, Thillaisthanam Rama Iyengar, Tanjavur Rama Rao have notated. Of these, the notations of Tanjavur Rama Rao didnt see the light and that of Thillaisthanam Rama Iyengar is lost.
Veena Kuppaiyer has written the text of Sri Thyagarajas compositions. We are not fortunate enough to know more about his contributions.
Umayalpuram Sundara and Krishna Bhagavathar, the pioneer of Umayalpuram school didnt notate any of the krithis and they sang only from their memory. But majority of the present versions (also of the past great masters) is mainly attributed to Umayalpuram stock!!
In the second generation disciples, Pallavi Seshayyar is said to have notated.

shanks · Post by **shanks** » 11 Aug 2016, 22:40

I can only see their asura sadhakam

interesting that 'asura sadhakam' is associated with immense practice leading to great results

Aren't these 'asura' guys on the losing end of the game for eternity

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 12 Aug 2016, 10:08

When we all appreciate the highest cultural achievements of Sri Ravikiran in taking the melody of CM into the inter-civilizational dialogue - I should say - demanding and getting great respect for the Carnatic tradition - even as the idioms are offered for amalgamation - I don't see why we don't appreciate when some artistes emphasize the rhythmic constructs albeit with some heavy dose of virtuosity!

If how notes are and arranged and move on frequency scale is somehow very consequential but how they are arranged and move on time scale is inconsequential - the musical system will collapse under the weight of that falsehood!

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 12 Aug 2016, 11:31

Bhakthim dehi Sir,

I consciously kept my postings very brief. What I did not elaborate, you have done with fineness.

Vilomachapu Sir,

My posting on English translation publication of SSP by MA was out of my memory of Sri Pappu Venugopala Rao's press briefing at the release function. They were published, if my memory is correct, in 2011 and 2012. Plan and audio release project was of TMK and I did mention it.

munirao2001

sankark · Post by **sankark** » 12 Aug 2016, 20:55

Leaving the tangential thread about SSP/TMK, the music in the linked video is leaning more towards titillating than scintillating in my books. Mastery & virtuosity, unallayed exuberance, pyrotechnic heavy. Certainly fits the title - Exhilarating. While mastery/command and virtuosity over their domains by any human being is to be celebrated, it has to exhibited now and then and in measured doses IMO. "Too much" after a while and makes one jaded.

PS: I remember reading about Dwaram Venkataswamy Naidu. He asked someone to close his eyes and listen to his practicing violin. So he takes the bow at the usual end but during practice gradually moves the grip to the other end of the bow with no changes in tone, volume and certainly no screech. But apparently he refused to take this to the concert platform, perhaps figuring it will become a circus. It could well be hagiography.

narayan · Post by **narayan** » 12 Aug 2016, 22:45

Purist,
Thanks for the link.
A bit over the top, but certainly exhilarating. If anyone has tried to sing something of this kind (e.g. standard neraval in a Raghuvara type song), I think the person would be left a bit open-mouthed at some places as to what was attempted by these two. Whether one should sing everything one is able to is a different matter, but for sheer raw creativity and imagination, this piece was noteworthy. Also, the coming together of different musicians is always nice!
I'm ok with a little glorious excess once in a while. Like quite a few people here in rasikas, my heros are all 80+ or dead (mostly the latter), so it's nice to occasionally look at some younger musicians and appreciate their talent.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 13 Aug 2016, 06:46

As i tuned in to DD Podhikai this morning, this was being telecast. I listened to see if it was jarring.
As far as i could make out, the raga was intact right through, with KBMK it being more so.
It was in manodharma section that the artists let go their imagination where it would. In a neraval, no artist can stick to what Thyagaraja would have done as no one would know.
I feel there are some rasikas who cannot listen to a very vilambit rendition and some who cannot stand a roller-coaster ride.
We have a very young team in this programme and all of them enjoy what they are doing and the audience is cheering them. That must be bliss. Our judgment must stand aside.
It was interesting to see a cosmopolitan audience in Tiruvarur.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 13 Aug 2016, 09:11

Sorry for the long post.Could not help it

John Dewey ART AS EXPERIENCE
edited at places for sake of brevity

The work of art is complete only as it works in the experience of others than the one who created it.
Thus language involves what logicians call a triadic relation. There is the speaker, the thing said, and the one spoken to. The external object, the product of art, is the connecting link between artist and audience. Even when the artist works in solitude all three terms are present. The work is there in progress, and the artist has to become vicariously the receiving audience. He can speak only as his work appeals to him as one spoken to through what he perceives. He observes and understands as a third person might note and interpret.

All language, whatever its medium, involves what is said and how it is said, or substance and form. The great question concerning substance and form is: Does matter come first ready-made, and search for a discovery of form in which to embody it come afterwards? Or is the whole creative effort of the artist an endeavor to form material so that it will be in actuality the authentic substance of a work of art? The question goes far and deep.

The answer given it determines the issue of many other controverted points in esthetic criticism. Is there one esthetic value belonging to sense materials and another to a form that renders them expressive?
Are all subjects fit for esthetic treatment or only a few which are set aside for that end by their intrinsically superior character?
Is "beauty" another name for form descending from without, as a transcendent essence, upon material, or is it a name for the esthetic quality that appears whenever material is formed in a way that renders it adequately expressive?
Is form, in its esthetic sense, something that uniquely marks off as esthetic from the beginning a certain realm of objects, or is it the abstract name for what emerges whenever an experience attains complete development?

If an art product is taken to be one of self-expression and the self is regarded as something complete and self-contained in isolation, then of course substance and form fall apart. That in which a self-revelation is clothed, is, by the underlying assumption, external to the things expressed.
The externality persists no matter which of the two is regarded as form and which as substance. It is also clear that if there be no self-expression, no free play of individuality, the product will of necessity be but an instance of a species; it will lack the freshness and originality found only in things that are individual on their own account. Here is a point from which the relation of form and substance may be approached.

The material out of which a work of art is composed belongs to the common world rather than to the self, and yet there is self-expression in art because the self assimilates that material in a distinctive way to reissue it into the public world in a form that builds a new object. This new object may have as its consequence similar reconstructions, recreations, of old and common material on the part of those who perceive it, and thus in time come to be established as part of the acknowledged world — as "universal."

The material expressed cannot be private; that is the state of the madhouse. But the manner of saying it is individual, and, if the product is to be a work of art, induplicable. The quality of a work of art is sui generis because the manner in which general material is rendered transforms it into a substance that is fresh and vital.

What is true of the producer is true of the perceiver. He may perceive academically, looking for identities with which he already is familiar; or learnedly, pedantically, looking for material to fit into a history or article he wishes to write, or sentimentally for illustrations of some theme emotionally dear.
But if he perceives esthetically, he will create an experience of which the intrinsic subject matter, the substance, is new. An English critic, Mr. A. C. Bradley, has said that "poetry being poems, we are to think of a poem as it actually exists; and an actual poem is a succession of experiences — sounds, images, thought — through which we pass when we read a poem. ... A poem exists in unnumberable degrees."

And it is also true that it exists in unnumberable qualities or kinds, no two readers having exactly the same experience, according to the "forms," or manners of response brought to it. A new poem is created by everyone who reads poetically — not that its raw material is original for, after all, we live in the same old world, but that every individual brings with him, when he exercises his individuality, a way of seeing and feeling that in its interaction with old material creates something new, something previously not existing in experience.

A work of art no matter how old and classic is actually, not just potentially, a work of art only when it lives in some individualized experience. As a piece of parchment, of marble, of canvas, it remains (subject to the ravages of time) self-identical throughout the ages. But as a work of art, it is recreated every time it is esthetically experienced.

But what is true of it is equally true of the Parthenon as a building. It is absurd to ask what an artist "really" meant by his product: he himself would find different meanings in it at different days and hours and in different stages of his own development. If he could be articulate, he would say "I meant just that, and that means whatever you or any one can honestly, that is in virtue of your own vital experience, get out of it." Any other idea makes the boasted "universality" of the work of art a synonym for monotonous identity. The Parthenon, or whatever, is universal because it can continuously inspire new personal realizations in experience.
It is simply an impossibility that anyone today should experience the Parthenon as the devout Athenian contemporary citizen experienced it, any more than the religious statuary of the twelfth century can mean, esthetically, even to a good Catholic today just what it meant to the worshipers of the old period.

The "works" that fail to become new are not those which are universal but those which are "dated." The enduring art-product may have been, and probably was, called forth by something occasional, something having its own date and place. But what was evoked is a substance so formed that it can enter into the experiences

Purist · Post by **Purist** » 13 Aug 2016, 10:33

# 32 - Thanks Narayan, you captured the essence of my reason to post.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 13 Aug 2016, 10:47

Varsha Sir,

It is John Dewey, the philosopher, at his best. It answers on creativity, original and recreativity anew of the original, the reality of experiences of both the artist and the connoisseur. Grateful thanks to you Sir. I had read it in the past and enjoyed and you have recreated it.

munirao2001

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 13 Aug 2016, 11:09

Always my pleasure too.Thanks

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 13 Aug 2016, 11:39

Varsha,
So appropriate and so expressive. Once again, you bring rain like Amrutavarshini!

If an art product is taken to be one of self-expression and the self is regarded as something complete and self-contained in isolation, then of course substance and form fall apart. That in which a self-revelation is clothed, is, by the underlying assumption, external to the things expressed.
The externality persists no matter which of the two is regarded as form and which as substance. It is also clear that if there be no self-expression, no free play of individuality, the product will of necessity be but an instance of a species

What is true of the producer is true of the perceiver. He may perceive academically, looking for identities with which he already is familiar; or learnedly, pedantically, looking for material to fit into a history or article he wishes to write, or sentimentally for illustrations of some theme emotionally dear.
But if he perceives esthetically, he will create an experience of which the intrinsic subject matter, the substance, is new.

I feel blessed to be able to listen to Carnatic music. It has such profusion of opportunity for aesthetic expression as well as for enjoyment!

Sivaramakrishnan · Post by **Sivaramakrishnan** » 13 Aug 2016, 12:11

They say everything in this world evolves.
But the right mode of evolution of classical arts would be when it becomes more and more aesthetic.
(Do not ask me what is meant by 'aesthetic')
I will not say the right path of evolution of (Carnatic) music would be addition of the elements of speed and noise.
Presentations (by artists) depend on the level of appreciation of the audience.
Let us promote refinement and prevent artists from becoming boisterous.

Purist · Post by **Purist** » 13 Aug 2016, 12:41

sankark wrote:. Certainly fits the title - Exhilarating. While mastery/command and virtuosity over their domains by any human being is to be celebrated, it has to exhibited now and then and in measured doses IMO. "Too much" after a while and makes one jaded.

Fully agree. As a purist I always look for saukhyam/bhavamful music, but will not shut my ears for exhubrance once in a
while like the one I posted. You do find some 'aha' moments in them to savour. The antagonists in this thread fail to
accept that even in the music of many stalwarts of the past there were interludes of flashy/exhuberance. We didn't
call them 'asuras' or their music as noise or buffoonery(sorry no videos available to vouchsafe)
Infact some krithis were chosen just for that -like Nenarunchinan u(Malavi), Bantureethi, Raghuvamsasudha etc ,
*Too much after a while makes one jaded' will also apply for vilambam too and the exhilarating ones come as
montony busters. That makes the experience wholesome.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 13 Aug 2016, 12:48

Varshavachanam romaharshanam.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 13 Aug 2016, 13:04

Sivaramakrishnan Sir,
You know aesthetic, you have experiences of aesthetic as a discerning connoisseur. Aesthetic are related with two senses of mind-One, the perception of beauty emotionally of abstract, in nature in works of art; Second, the principles embodying the work of art with unique identity established.
Transition from Sadas/Chamber performances to Sabha democratized the art experiences beyond the royalty and gentry. Democratization resulted in more numbers of non discerning listeners seeking the experience. Performers were compelled to seek popular appeal to secure the support for their successful practice and living. Performers intelligently chose gross forms of grand effects of spontaneity over subtlety forms of deeper experiences and secured popularity and support. It was in the past, it is in the present and it will in the near future, certainly. Popular appeal is secured in the values of excitement, surprises and high decibels,creating illusions to the non discerning vast majority of listeners, crowd and delusions to the very minority of discerning listeners. Allocation of resources and attendance of artists are empirical evidence-psychological.

munirao2001

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 13 Aug 2016, 17:12

Everything evolves. But remember that music and a musician evolve together and you are listening to people 2 generations below you. Your tastes have evolved too over decades of listening, don't forget that. We will see where they evolve to after 10 years.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 13 Aug 2016, 18:34

munirao2001 wrote:Sivaramakrishnan Sir,
Transition from Sadas/Chamber performances to Sabha democratized the art experiences beyond the royalty and gentry. Democratization resulted in more numbers of non discerning listeners seeking the experience. Performers were compelled to seek popular appeal to secure the support for their successful practice and living. Performers intelligently chose gross forms of grand effects of spontaneity over subtlety forms of deeper experiences and secured popularity and support.
munirao2001

Recently was reading sangIta kalpadruma of Harikesanallur - posted in the books section. Isn't mArga and dESi classification say something different? mArga is used as part of religious ritual whereas dESi is supposed to be for the enjoyment of the mahajanas?

We seem to attach too much importance to the endowment surroundings of the music - i.e. who at any point was funding the endowment of arts and its effect on arts?

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 13 Aug 2016, 22:41

I watched that video again a second time more carefully and have concluded the following...

Abhishek's extraordinary prowess in percussion and rhythm allow him to unleash his imagination in neraval and swaras and come up with astonishing phrases that many others would think twice about attempting. His laya skill gives him extraordinary confidence to improvise these on the fly. He also knows that longer patterns mean exponentially more possibilities and is milking it like there's no tomorrow. The combination of these 2 elements and a voice that loves brighas and a brilliant imagination allow him to unleash the flood all the time, going to places not seen often, if ever. Somehow he keeps reminding me of Rafael Nadal.

KBMK was really equal to him. His style isn't that rhythm heavy but man, no less amazing. Both of them have really become good at opening up their vocal range immensely.

It was an extraordinary effort also on Parur Ananthakrishnan to match what would otherwise be a force of nature thrown at him.

The tani was all Deepavali day. But wow, I have to admire the control, playing at that speed.

I also realize that this is really the difference between a recording and the live concert. So much more happens in a live concert. I really should go attend more live concerts. What happened here is very typical of a live concert -- you will never see this in cassettes or maybe even radio concerts because of the time limit -- these Rafael Nadal type of rallies.

At the risk of sounding sexist, I think I have been listening to too many ladies of late. Let the reader dare not misinterpet me

Stylistically, the men have always had this wilder, more aggressive approach to both krithis and manodharma as far as I can remember. Take this away and they could never get near their full creative potential.

I don't know which rasa describes electrifying, but that's the one that will work the nerves and adrenaline glands into applause like nothing else. The thing is that there are many more "colours of rasa" across an entire spectrum of flavours.

PS : I think a couple of handles here really don't like the next generation, going by their previous comments on current artistes (rage threads are usually when they emerge, cloaked and fuelled by the force of their anonymity). Previous experience suggests they are beyond hope.

Anyway it's a free country, both ways.

sankark · Post by **sankark** » 13 Aug 2016, 23:33

SrinathK,
Totally off topic. I had thought about what would have been the reaction if two vocalists of the other gender had done this kind of manodharma unleashing? Bouquets or brickbats? There certainly are capable artistes. And those that can go beyond this even isn't unimaginable IMHO.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 14 Aug 2016, 05:08

SrinathK wrote: I don't know which rasa describes electrifying, but that's the one that will work the nerves and adrenaline glands into applause like nothing else. The thing is that there are many more "colours of rasa" across an entire spectrum of flavours.

Most listeners at the outset need an intravenous feed - until they have enough experience listening to rAgas that they can start to identify them, and then much later start to discern unique or new phrases.

But laya manodharmam - subtle and explicit - has its own standing and there are many artistes that have pursued it.

SrinathK wrote: I think I have been listening to too many ladies of late. Let the reader dare not misinterpet me Stylistically, the men have always had this wilder, more aggressive approach to both krithis and manodharma as far as I can remember.

Ra-Ga duo were a refreshing oasis - early millennium - after a long barren landscape on the female side to have a bit of stridency in their renditions. In their recent concert - for raga ratnamalikache - their emphasis on bAghavtOtamulu kUdi during neraval endings was every aesthetic setting the stage for a good tantalizing 1 edam talli pallavi later on. They time managed using a Dikshitar's maragata vallim as main. Diskshitarna neraval paNNa vEndAm!

Even now there are Abhang connoisseurs wedded to varkAri who would not take their electricity even in that!

Vid. SR has convincingly performed to a more abstract Mridangam by Anantha (2014 Season), Patri etc. In her Prime her accompanists
were I should say very accommodating. She rendered vervy pallavis nevertheless.

Vid. Sowmya has for a long time sang to an exuberant and interventionist accompaniment from Sri Neyveli Narayanan - which is not possible unless unless one has a good handle on time flow - but she compensated on the Melodic side for any lack of electricity.

Vid. Aruna Sairam - I have not listened much - but when I have listened to her live one of the occasions, I was witness to a walkout by a Grundig spool tape veteran saying "I cannot listen to this Karahara priya". He was of Marathi heritage - ancestors settled in Tanjore along with one of those Kings. I have never seen him do that for any other artiste of any generation popular or otherwise. I stayed back though. In the same hall - there was another Marathi gentleman ( I guess a real one with no Tanjore connection of any sort) who proclaimed that "You are singing great - go on!!" when the artiste herself claimed that she was at 50% of her capacity due to poor feedback system. The former Marathi told me once her style is more a lAvaNI. If that is true - don't know why we need the special kootu project!

. Thats how much input I have on her - not enough to make judgements - I guess she is still an enigma.

To be continued

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 14 Aug 2016, 10:00

Singers like Abhishek or TMK (if you recall his thrilling neravals and swaras last decade) are in another level of aggression even compared to all the above ladies and even other male singers. The level of abandon at our ages however will mean some amount of compromise if you are expecting uber-polished renditions of compositions. GNB at his peak in my opinion represented all the good virtues of masculine music.

That is not at all a bad remark -- ladies specialize in other kinds of aesthetic parameters. Pronounciation for e.g. Not to mention the refinement they brought into the rendition of compositions. Their gamakas tend to be sweeter and more delicate too, which is aided by the higher pitch of their voices. And this is not a bad thing at all.

The level to which the female persona has been explored to right from our Natyashashtra onward to padams and javalis (most of which are for nayikas) would tell you that there is a whole body of arts focusing on female aesthetics. And Ranjani Gayatri's music IMHO is as feminine as you get.

While I think this is veering off into a discussion of masculine vs feminine music and the aesthetics that are more tilted towards either gender, I think some knowledge of this would help appreciate the differences in musical styles. I know there is a lot of talk going on about "gender equality", but I dug very deep into the topic and found out that when it comes to psychology and aesthetics, most people really don't have any real idea (or have a vested agenda) when they start making their cliched observations and then blaming it all on social conditioning. But that is another story...

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 14 Aug 2016, 10:06

I'm ok with a little glorious excess once in a while. Like quite a few people here in rasikas, my heros are all 80+ or dead (mostly the latter), so it's nice to occasionally look at some younger musicians and appreciate their talent.

Reading books in one's youth is like looking at the moon through a crevice; reading books in middle age is like looking at the moon in one's courtyard; and reading books in old age is like looking at the moon on an open terrace. The depth of benefits of reading varies in proportion to the depth of one's own experience."
....
....
Literature is landscape on the desk,
and
a landscape is literature on the earth.- Chang Ch'ao.

http://www.bookyards.com/en/book/detail ... -Of-Living#

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 15 Aug 2016, 07:46

Everything evolves. But remember that music and a musician evolve together and you are listening to people 2 generations below you. Your tastes have evolved too over decades of listening, don't forget that. We will see where they evolve to after 10 years.

A mans age can be judged by seeing if he walks around a puddle .Or through it. This video is one of the "through it " types

Sachi . I was watching A Streetcar named Desire yesterday and something said there made me think of this thread and you .These words kept ringing ...

As if nobody had ever known it ...before
Here it is.
https://archive.org/download/OhToBeYoungAgain