Search for Truth-TMK

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 26 Sep 2016, 13:49

In my postings/comments I was urging for search for truth on two critical issues,engaging the minds of KM. For the benefit of seekers, I am posting the extracts from TMK's book, 'Southern Music...', as given below:

ON MSSAMMA Essay titled 'Two Harbingers of Change', P.321 and 322.

"MSS was already well known, in fact almost a celebrity, because she had acted in a successful Tamil film 'Sevasadanam'(1938. The first thing that Sadasivam figured was that MS must shed her devadasi history, while keeping her filmic persona intact".

"Sadasivam also installed her on the kutcheri stage, where he utilized her gift for rapturous invocations to make her the very epitome of bhakti'.

"She also became the inspiration for 'respectable' woman to become musicians".

"In numerous concerts, she rendered complex pallavis, sang rare and difficult compositions and presented all the 'male' aspects of the music with striking effect. Why is it that no one remembers this?"

"Since neither her bhaki nor her srungara music was part of what was perceived as serious and rigorous, her Karnatik musicality was undervalued"

"The bhakti music was beautiful, uplifting, unforgettable, but it was still not regarded as serious music, as it represented only the devotional music of the pious and the devout. The fact that there was another 'MS music' that was capable of being, and did indeed because, serious with all the rigor of art music has been lost to the legend of the 'divine MS'. I regret this as great loss".

"MS had to find her space within this order and maneuver with in it".

ON BRAHMIN BASHING, Essay titled 'Caste and the Vocalists), P.358 and 359.

" I am neither pro nor anti any caste. I am implacably against the caste system itself".

"At the heart of all this is my belief that there is no place for caste, religion, gender or language discrimination in Karnatik music".

"There should be soon a point when the world of art music wills its artists and its rasikas not from their social addresses, but their aesthetic directions".

I wish artists and rasikas realize the truth. Own the music of the artist. Do not, ever deny freedom of the artist.

munirao2001

jodha · Post by **jodha** » 26 Sep 2016, 17:12

I happened to watch 2 of his interviews in 2 vernacular channels.TMK in my view is politicizing things.He tries hard to convince people about a system which is not at all existing.What is his mission?To take CM to a majority ? He may do that silently.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 26 Sep 2016, 18:16

Meaning for Political is 'relating to the Government or Public affairs of a country. TMK's activism is related to Public affairs. TMK is a human being, citizen of India with rights for communicating and popular. Why you want to TMK to silence on his public affairs activism ?

munirao2001

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 26 Sep 2016, 18:39

The first thing that Sadasivam figured was that MS must shed her devadasi history, while keeping her filmic persona

Such statements border on character assasination & the only reason TMK is not in legal trouble is because the people are dead & unable to defend themselves. I am surprised this type of trash is even brought up in decent company.

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 26 Sep 2016, 21:21

Munirao Sir, With due respects to your seniority, age, authority on matters concerned to music, I am compelled to ask the following question.

When TMKs' articles/speeches were coming, we have discussed enough on his theories. Now why you want to bring to light those points and call for fresh deliberation. We had already noted your leaning towards his idiosyncracies. Sorry.

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 26 Sep 2016, 21:23

And you have given the title- search for the truth. Looks funny.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 26 Sep 2016, 21:36

Better title will be 'In defence of twisting truth.' Freedom of expression cannot be slandering others. That is not done in the best of democracies. This 'gentleman' has slandered people as a group, organisers, rasikas, with a delirious mind. Truth does not go by label, but by content and propriety. He is like a petulant child crying for milk or attention. He has enough people to take care of him. We can turn to more satisfying pursuits.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 27 Sep 2016, 01:54

cit chOr is always up to some prank, to be frank--
The original in butter-stealing, betterment TMK's creed
As he sees fit for our society--music apart, massive outcries,
All massed into a rhetoric of anachronistic caste-inequalities...

Finger-pointing, like the old 'Oh, no! No recording!' admonition
From Concert podium (now, a 'soulful place') to politician's soap box?

Politely, we decline, from dealing with his many-faced acts--
We rasikAs are tired of responding to every one of his 'uvAca'-s
'The 'forbidden fruit', as he once decreed, is for all to relish--
Music of yore, and 'hot as it's happening' is ours now, every hour

And by the way, this time, bless him, he didn't bring it to our doorsteps

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 27 Sep 2016, 09:55

CRama Sir,

1. Why I want to bring light? After considerable time and postings by forumites in observation, the need was felt by me in the interest of art form appreciation when even RSachi Sir and KVChllappa Sir commented. I repeat and urge, Own the musical values of artist (s). Not deny the freedom (rights),never and ever. It is our right and freedom to accept, appreciate and support his causes or reject.

2. "We had already noted your leaning towards his idiosyncracies". I searched for truth, established clarity, understanding and shared the truth in my earlier comments/postings and now shared the extracts of writings of TMK which seeks and will establish the understanding for well informed determination.

CRama and KVC Sirs,

3. "Title for truth-search for truth,looks funny" My deep concern of conditioned minds (s). Emotion and even passion the causal,effects and its affectations, is also reflected in your observation. Please investigate, introspect, infer, analyse, meditate, determine and act, with knowledge of intent and content of TMK in his communications, oral and written.

SureshVV Sir,

On your belief of "character assassination", many books on MSSAmma have been published and are in the public domain. TMK's intent is not "character assassination" but his judgment of MSSAmma on her rise to fame and popularity with the plan, execution, success of Sri Sadasivam (attaching high values on the latency and potency of musical qualities-my understanding). TMK's belief is that MSS Amma was denied well deserved recognition to her rise to Vidwath with image centered on 'devotion' and 'devotional quality of music'.

Arasi Madam,

'We rasikas are tired of responding to every one of his 'uvacha's" . Truth is contrary, threads related to TMK continue to receive highest attention.
My request is truly 'bless him' with the realization of truth, changing the mindset.

I welcome such observations and questioning, as they emanate in spirit of seeker (s) and rasika (s)

munirao2001

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 27 Sep 2016, 11:00

No one knows the truth, the whole truth. Two things I've learned, one from a movie song and one from an old textbook:
kuch tO lOg kehengE, lOgOn kA kAm hai Kenna
(People will talk, it's their wont)
suniyE sab ki, kariyE man ki
(Listen to all, but do what you think is right)

Not every muckraker is a seeker (of the truth or the golden snitch, I'll leave it up to your imagination), and not every seeker needs to rake up muck.

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 27 Sep 2016, 12:39

munirao2001 wrote:CRama Sir,
My request is truly 'bless him' with the realization of truth, changing the mindset.
munirao2001

munirao sir, he do not require any blessing of these rasikas. He has got the highest blessing from many quarters - we are all aware about it. Next is the Sangeeta Kalanidhi. You need not do so much lobbying for him. He is capable of taking care of his aspirations.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 27 Sep 2016, 12:54

munirao2001 wrote:

SureshVV Sir,

On your belief of "character assassination", many books on MSSAmma have been published and are in the public domain.

No excuse. Many pigs are rolling in the mud. Will we do the same?

TMK's intent is not "character assassination" but his judgment of MSSAmma on her rise to fame and popularity with the plan, execution, success of Sri Sadasivam (attaching high values on the latency and potency of musical qualities-my understanding).

Please re-read the part I quoted.

TMK's belief is that MSS Amma was denied well deserved recognition to her rise to Vidwath with image centered on 'devotion' and 'devotional quality of music'.

TMK's music stinks now not because of his lack of vidwath but because it is not "centered on devotion and devotional quality of music". He is really under-rating the role this plays in music to his own folly. As the great bard himself says:

Ref: http://www.karnatik.com/c2809.shtml

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 27 Sep 2016, 12:59

We are anonymous in his opinion and he does not care. I have my own ego and I do not care for someone who does not care for a rasika.
The truth in matters like the personal life of someone is silly to enquire into. Nothing is gained. We must enquire into the truth behind why MS was so simple, modest and genuine, why she attracted all people not simply by her music, but by her bearing and conduct, and so many other things. It is equally silly to complain that she was 'diverted to devotional music.' It is the author of that opinion and those who find merit in it who should introspect, bla bla. She did that part with aplomb and eagerness. She has come out with flying colours. Her Samskritam pronunciation, not simply in Suprabhatham and Sahasranamam, but even in a krithi is unbeatable. Several Samskritham pundits are not that perfect. She remains in the hearts of thousands because of that and all of them feel blessed to listen to it. What has a heretic got to do with with what one devotee does and thousands cheer and cherish? It is a great tragedy that this 'gentleman' should choose to write on someone who lived for others. She did not promote her own work in every concert of hers. She did not hurt anyone at any time. She showed the utmost courtesy to her rasikas. Let those that want to write on her first emulate her on such sterling qualities. Meanwhile, let us rasikas have peace from such slanderous writing.

pattamaa · Post by **pattamaa** » 27 Sep 2016, 14:01

sureshvv wrote:
munirao2001 wrote:

TMK's music stinks now not because of his lack of vidwath but because it is not "centered on devotion and devotional quality of music". He is really under-rating the role this plays in music to his own folly. As the great bard himself says:

Ref: http://www.karnatik.com/c2809.shtml

That's why he doesn't sing this song

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 27 Sep 2016, 14:13

"In numerous concerts, she rendered complex pallavis, sang rare and difficult compositions and presented all the 'male' aspects of the music with striking effect. Why is it that no one remembers this?"

Here is another sexist quote. What is this 'male' and 'female' aspect of music? Who defined these?

And to add insult to injury, he waxes eloquent on sexism in CM.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 28 Sep 2016, 10:24

If rasikas did not recognize MS for her vidwath, that's the limitation of the average listener, which I have pointed out elsewhere, requires a sustained effort to overcome. Not every listener is a nerd. But it irritates me to hear that the divine MS persona was an artificial image solely for marketing.

And no, we do have a lot of people out there who do recognize MS Amma's vidwath. One thing that TMK is right (and I hope that's what he's trying to communicate) is that there are a lot of opinions out there that consider MS as only a bhakti singer and remember her Kurai Ondrum Illai and not her Thodi RTPs. I asked rasika friends of mine what was special about the music of many singers and while they remembered MLV for her swaras and DKP for her pallavis, about MS they mainly talked about the bhakti and didn't seem to remember much more. Having said that, we should remember how much DKP amma also shifted to bhava in her later years.

I have also been privy to much gossip that tends to undervalue her music and I'll tell you what -- it's not the devotion that was the cause of such opinions. Rather, it was the ignorance of the average listener and the paucity of live concert recordings from her peak years from the 1950s to the early 70s to blame. Most MS recordings I have are of her later days, when she had slowed down somewhat and her singing was more aimed at longevity and bhakti and even these are commercial albums or individual tracks and not full length concerts.

I'm also sad to say this, but some of these opinions (such as the one in the 1st para) I've heard were also made in envy. Some people just couldn't take it that she got so successful and would simply point out her "gifted voice" or "public relations" or "spiritual image" -- again the old habit of dismissing a good voice as something not so important. So when one says "Undervalued", the next question is "Undervalued by whom?" Undervalued by the ignorant. A lot of "vambu" has passed on for informed or even knowledgeable opinion, when it is anything but.

TMK doesn't undervalue her music at all, he knows more about it than us, but he thinks the bhakti had to do something with such opinions and it prevented people from recognizing her capability. I don't agree with that and I think it's just the psychology of the average listener to blame. Even for hardcore rasikas, I think we can admit that even after years of breaking our heads, we can only now see just how big her repertoire was and that the true extent of her capabilities is actually out of reach of comprehension for most of us.

Having said that, MS amma actually had a very long period of performing at or very close to her peak (if musicians could be compared to sports stars) -- from her late teens to around 60, after which it was still right up there till her early 70s. Only Brinda & Mukta AFAIK have had a similarly long peak period. Most people half her age would have struggled to match her level even in her later years. Keep in mind that some of her contemporaries didn't even make it to 70, let alone sing. Only Roger Federer I think could come close in equivalent terms in the field of tennis to having such a long peak, and even he at 34 (which is old man territory in tennis) changed his style to more attacking tennis to shorten points and reduce strain.

And yes, at that time there was a very significant difference between the music of male and female musicians. Brinda Mukta were really the first to start venturing out of their home turf, but even they didn't attempt RTPs. Then came MS and NCV. Then DKP took up singing RTPs and MS also followed shortly thereafter. MLV brought it full circle by going all guns blazing in her peak years. Today's listeners may find it odd to even make such distinctions. Nevertheless, there are still subtle inherent aesthetic differences even today in the music of male and female musicians and that is not a bad thing.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 28 Sep 2016, 11:03

SrinathK wrote: Nevertheless, there are still subtle inherent aesthetic differences even today in the music of male and female musicians and that is not a bad thing.

There are subtle inherent aesthetic differences from one performer to another. To tie these to their gender is fraught with risk.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 28 Sep 2016, 11:12

MS was quite proud of her tradition and did not change her name or her initials ever. Hers was the tradition of being the curator of the arts and keeping it alive and vibrant over several generations. Sadasivam was both knowledgeable and proud of this fact. To make it sound like he wanted it swept under the rug only exposes TMK's attempt to rewrite history with his Victorian sense of false propriety.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 28 Sep 2016, 12:30

I do not know how far it is right to say that MS was proud of her tradition chiefly because 'tradition' is ambiguous in the first mention though amplified at the second. My inference is that she stuck to her maiden name because of her love for her mother, from whom she came away at the budding of youth, and because whatever music she nurtured later was on the grounding given by her mother.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 28 Sep 2016, 12:37

The tradition of our music has been, there is no need to be apologetic about it, its identification with the supreme. Whatever we do is in the service of the supreme. That sticks with the public as they are steeped in that tradition. Years of battling against it have not belittled it. I feel it was from the heart of MS to align with god through music, and TS just found vent to it. Music is what comes from the heart. Such music finds fulfilment not in virtuosity or classicism, but in total surrender, as in the mythological union of Andal, Mira or Nandanar with the supreme. I am here to argue the case of the ignorant.
Where it hurts is the insinuations which are blatant.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 28 Sep 2016, 12:55

kvchellappa wrote:I do not know how far it is right to say that MS was proud of her tradition chiefly because 'tradition' is ambiguous in the first mention though amplified at the second.

I don't understand. Can you please explain? Which is the first mention and which is the 2nd?

My inference is that she stuck to her maiden name because of her love for her mother, from whom she came away at the budding of youth, and because whatever music she nurtured later was on the grounding given by her mother.

May be immediate grounding was given by her mother. But it usually takes several generations to produce one MS. Without the respect for that tradition, MS may have well "rebelled" against it and gone on to be a movie singer or a Magsaysay award winner. Now wait a minute...

ram1999 · Post by **ram1999** » 28 Sep 2016, 15:48

Time and again TMK is proving to be the Kejri or Pappu of Carnatic Music. He makes one statement and there are 500 people researching, ridiculing, raising objections, playing a Yes Sir to it.
Sparks fly after a statement is made by him

What is required is how we ignore it as it make no bloody sense. TMK is just an arrogant, obnoxious piece of ***************... which should not be taken too seriously, nor his music !!

ram1999 · Post by **ram1999** » 28 Sep 2016, 16:38

If a 3 year old talks like a 30 year old we call him or her an adigaprasangi.
To me TMK is just that, he talks like an 80 year old

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 28 Sep 2016, 18:23

But wait! Don't bring us 'eighty'' or nearing eighty folks into it

We can be much younger in our thinking than all that. Now, if you want to call me nUTRuk kizhavi, I can question that too--yes, we lot think much younger, believe me

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 29 Sep 2016, 05:14

AMEN to Arasi's "championing" My cause as well!!!

I am amazed at TMK's presumptions about MSAmma's music and his cursory dismissal of the Bhakthi aspects of her music.Having known MSAmma for over 60 years,having gone thro my OWN cycles of ecstasy and disappointments over the years in her performances(Iin comparison to DKP and MLV on their relative strengths,weaknesses(!!)--- all due to sheer ignorance on my part-- I might add-- he(TMK) -- NOT having had the benefit of close interaction with MSAmma over musical matters(his youth and her old age being the reasons) and not having had the opportunity to discuss these matters on a "one-on-one" basis with MSAmma OUGHT NOT to comment on aspects of her music no matter how many concerts of hers he may have listened to.
I have raised one aspect of MSAMMa's music(PALLAVI singing) in one of the many one-on-one sessions with her--I used to be mesmerized by the Pallavi renderings of DKP,ALATHUR,and MLV and I wondered WHY she(MSS) was not into it as much as the others..To which she replied that she has been taught several intricate Pallavis by Mazhavarayanendal Subbarama Bhagavathar--known for his prowess and even demonstrated one pallavi which at that time went right over my head!! Lest forumites tend to dismiss this as an anecdotal statement not amenable to verification or substantiation, about MSAMMA"s PALLAVI prowess I heard at a recent MSAMMa centenary celebration held near Philadelphia(I had made reference to this event in one of my earlier posts) a lec-dem by KIRANAVALI--solely devoted to MSAMMA's Pallavis from various concerts over the years(I have requested the "organizer" of the event--MSAMMA"s Grand_Niece to post this ASAP). KIRANAVALI--young as she is could not have had much opportunities to listen to MSAMMA"s live concerts and also may not have had much chances to meet her in person and discuss things. YET thro sheer diligence she had assembled the various Pallavis and demonstrated the intricacies that MS AMMa had adopted. In my opinion this deserved the most learned audience .

I was impressed with KIRANAVALI's painstaking approach to "highlight" a point which has been largely missed by most people . She truly displayed subdued admiration and reverence for MSAMMA. To me SHE is a classical artist with no axe to grind that has the credentials to analyze the finer points of not only MSAMMA"s music but others as well.

Lastly I have been privy to Senior Musicians in the 50's and 60's commenting derisively and dismissively about MSAMMA's music--due to SHEER envy. POSTERITY will be the best judge!!!

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 29 Sep 2016, 07:07

@MKR, Spot on about a lot of people passing comments on her music out of sheer ignorance or envy, it is especially surprising to hear comments like that made by other musicians, but it's true. The fact that many of those comments come from the music community itself coupled with the limitations of the lay listener is IMHO the main reason for the lack of appreciation of her vidwath.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 29 Sep 2016, 07:41

Ramesh Mama, thank you for that post. I MO, Smt. MSS made such complexities appear deceptively absent that only people who could look through what people called fluff were privileged to discern the complexity that lay beneath the surface. I think there should be a warning for the hoi polloi about the deceptive simplicity of her music: "Kid! Don't try this on your own. You'll get hurt!"

pattamaa · Post by **pattamaa** » 29 Sep 2016, 08:51

Fully Filled pot does not spill.
Empty vessels make the most noise.

(நிறை குடம் நீர் தளும்பாது. குரை குடம் கூத்தாடும்)

Holds good for both MS amma and TMK

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Sep 2016, 09:43

Pattamma,
You better correct your typo. Otherwise, the pot will not only splatter water but also bark!

pattamaa · Post by **pattamaa** » 29 Sep 2016, 10:06

குரை( ற ) ஒன்றும் இல்லை

no bark, no regret !

ram1999 · Post by **ram1999** » 29 Sep 2016, 12:33

Is it not ironical that the reviews and comments made by a person much junior in age / experience / attitude / aptitude / talent etc etc... is given so much serious thoughts and debated ??

Smt. MSS has become an ICON for no simple reason and is a RATNA of BHARAT.

Suggest - close the thread and archive and no more debates

vineyan · Post by **vineyan** » 29 Sep 2016, 16:58

Even one Mridanga artiste who accompanied MS when he was an upcoming artiste made a derisive comment clothed euphemistically that she concentrated more on light music in one of the centenary celebrations and catered to the gallery

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 29 Sep 2016, 17:24

I will answer to each questions attempting sincerely to establish the understanding and the truth. This is the secondary goal and the primary goal is realization of significance of 'Own the musical/aesthetic quality, not own the rights to freedom-attempts to silence, of artist'. I only request you to keep your beliefs in pause mode and read once again the quotes in the meanwhile, afresh. Falsity is easy to establish with the aid of desire or passion but truth is always difficult to establish with logic and reason.

munirao2001

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 29 Sep 2016, 17:33

ram1999 wrote:Suggest - close the thread and archive and no more debates

Yes, it is high time this thread is closed.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 29 Sep 2016, 21:16

We will stick to our 'beliefs' and endorse that the thread be closed.

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 29 Sep 2016, 23:10

As already stated by me in the beginning, there is no need for any discussion on the topic. The thread my be closed.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 30 Sep 2016, 05:38

Hope it is closed lest more hurtful posts appear.

vichu1947 · Post by **vichu1947** » 30 Sep 2016, 07:41

Now that we are searching for truth, can we know the truth behind TMK accepting large amount of remuneration in cash ?

Those living in glass houses should not throw stones at others. TMK should realise this

ram1999 · Post by **ram1999** » 30 Sep 2016, 07:46

Lets not wash dirty linen in public (I meant TMK's) ......

His position is like that of the Pakistani's after India's surgical attacks

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 30 Sep 2016, 08:02

Mods, the thread is getting vitriolic.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Sep 2016, 08:27

given the near unanimous requests to close the thread, it is now closed.