Caste in Carnatic Music

vijay.siddharth · Post by **vijay.siddharth** » 02 Jul 2017, 14:27

I have been listening to a recording of Madurai Somu, and I am a fan of Dandapani Desikar. Both of them are non-brahmins, as we know, as are the majority of Nadaswaram artistes (whom I haven't listened to).

Is it just me, or is the Carnatic music sung by non-brahmins like Somu and Desikar and even MLV (from what I understand, she was from the Devadasi community) far more 'raw' than the likes of Brahmin musicians like DK Pattammal?

Please add your thoughts below, and if it is a stupid/tactless question (the latter of which is a speciality of mine

), please don't hesitate to lock the thread.

Cheers

Siddharth

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 02 Jul 2017, 15:34

I think a lot of it is in our heads. Semmangudi and Chembai were pretty "raw" for some definition of the word. MS was certainly among the most refined of presentation.

I am sure that the evils of "casteism" did exist - but I don't think it crept into the style or content of the singing. At least on any significant basis.

Unfortunately, we at rasikas may not be able to handle a discussion such as this without it descending into a name calling or finger pointing exercise.

Time will tell

vijay.siddharth · Post by **vijay.siddharth** » 02 Jul 2017, 15:43

sureshvv wrote: ↑02 Jul 2017, 15:34 I am sure that the evils of "casteism" did exist - but I don't think it crept into the style or content of the singing. At least on any significant basis.

That brings to mind Madurai GS Mani's Lec Dem in Arkay this season.

He said (about Dandapani Desikar) 'அவர் ஒரு தேசிகர் ஆச்சே! எப்படி அவர இங்க வந்து பாட வைக்க முடியும்?'

To a certain extent, don't you think that casteism still persists amongst Carnatic music today? Or am I just a tad bit too influenced by TM Krishna

?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 02 Jul 2017, 16:11

vijay, not all our members read Tamil!

And yes, on this one, you are too influenced by TMK!

vijay.siddharth · Post by **vijay.siddharth** » 02 Jul 2017, 17:01

Nick H wrote: ↑02 Jul 2017, 16:11 vijay, not all our members read Tamil!

And yes, on this one, you are too influenced by TMK!

Apologies!

This translates (roughly) to 'He is a Desikar, so how can we make him sing here?'

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 02 Jul 2017, 17:07

While comparing Semmangudi (Nasal),araikudi and Chembai had hoarseness in voice,but all the three lived around the same time with semmangudi being Junior in this set.But the three were pioneers in establishing a system.Tiger Varadacharya and Maharajapuram vishwanatha Iyer too contributed significantly.Madurai Mani iyer and GNBalasubramanyam had styles of their own and their students could be distinguished and identified.
The later era saw palghat KV Narayanaswamy who really presented Carnatic Music in a very refined and methodical manner imbibing all that Araikudi taught him.MDR was the Odd man out and came from Tiger's school was even more unique than Tiger.he posed great challenge to the accompanists.
Along with Paghat KVN,Maharapuram Santhanam rode the music scene in 1970's upto 90's.
I think all of these were Bramhins.Though some non Bramhins have come up,the number is a minuscule.But it is not that the others cannot pick up and sing well.
There are examples in men as well as women.More than caste the environment at home and the rasikas play a very important role.
an additional factor is that of the bias of organizers.
I have just combined NICK sir's both topics and perhaps introduced some confusion
My conclusion regarding Bani is as follows:
1. There are already established schools and very little new style is coming up.This is one reason why the styles of Amrita Murali,brinda and Nisha look similar except for song selection even though they may be from different schools.
2.Musicians today are more interactive and i have seen very good comradeship during music season among various artists.

Sivaramakrishnan · Post by **Sivaramakrishnan** » 02 Jul 2017, 17:12

Let's do away with this time tested debate.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 02 Jul 2017, 18:13

There is no caste in music, but in social system. Good music transcends caste and reaches all rasikas. Did the audience for SOmu include only non-Brahmins? Certainly not. Caste prejudices are deep-rooted and are more than just Brahmin-nonBrahmin. I feel it is like 'kuppaiyai kilarauvathu.' It can only generate stench. The more we talk about it the more we perpetuate it. Let us keep music as music and not confuse it with caste, gender, age, etc.
I read in a book on science that human beings are gossips, even so it may well be to discuss more of music and less of persons (sweeping impressions that often proceed from certain life positions) and politics in this forum. Who am I to say that? Nobody.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 02 Jul 2017, 18:30

vijay.siddharth wrote: ↑02 Jul 2017, 15:43 To a certain extent, don't you think that casteism still persists amongst Carnatic music today? Or am I just a tad bit too influenced by TM Krishna ?

I don't think so. None of the doors that opened up for TMK (or any other contemporary musician) is because of caste. It is just a dead horse that we like to flog because of some kind of collective guilt.

vijay.siddharth · Post by **vijay.siddharth** » 02 Jul 2017, 18:40

sureshvv wrote: ↑02 Jul 2017, 18:30 None of the doors that opened up for TMK (or any other contemporary musician) is because of caste

Wasn't TMK's first concert organised because his uncle TT Vasu wanted him to perform? How many musicians did TT Vasu actively seek to perform in the Academy?

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 02 Jul 2017, 18:44

Nothing to do with caste, I don't think.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 02 Jul 2017, 19:37

Cast away caste!
Waste not words
On something passe'
Not worth our while--
Leave it to politicians
Who use it as rungs
To climb to power

Art be tainted not
By mean divisions
Of man-made rules
Let music thrive
In men, women
And children too!

Let joy alone
Be its creed

thanjavooran · Post by **thanjavooran** » 02 Jul 2017, 20:02

Arasi,
A very meaningful verse. . At last the cat is belled. Good luck.
With wishes,
Thanjavooran
02 07 2017

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 02 Jul 2017, 20:05

Well... Caste may have had its use. After all it gave us "Nandanar Charithram".

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 02 Jul 2017, 20:37

suresh,
The musical adaptation of Nandanar Charitram was wrong. Gopalakrishna Bharathy was warned of the same but he went ahead to compose this in his own style which has given birth to unnecessary and avoidable conflicts and prejudices in the musical circles too. Please refer to http://keetru.com/index.php?option=com_ ... Itemid=139

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 02 Jul 2017, 21:04

It is difficult to say certainly what part of all stories from Ramayana to Nandanar Charthram is historical. Wherever miracles appear, I am sceptical. On that score we cannot condemn a literary piece. As to the language used which is derogatory, it is certainly not Bharathi's belief, but a portrayal of what prevailed in society, at least in villages. I can vouch for it as I lived in a village till 1957 fully and for holidays till 1967. That is a century after Bharathi, it prevailed. It is still not fully gone. Nandanar Charitham shows how difficult it was for Nandanar to get past the taboos and his perseverence, and the work has inspired musicians profusely. I am not able to agree that its musical adaptation was wrong. Even Bharathiyar has used expressions that may be objectionable, but we know he was above them. The divide is sadly a fact of life and I can appreciate the hurt felt by the affected people, but that appreciation cannot make me feel apologetic about a work of merit, whose aim is not to support the bad treatment meted out to a section of society.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 02 Jul 2017, 21:23

kvc,
Twisting of historical characters to suit one's imagination is a bad way of earning repute - whoever that person is. If he was so keen, he should have invented a totally fictitious character and not a historical character. Enough disparaging remarks have been passed against a community on this account. It is totally wrong on the part of Gopalakrishna Bharathi to twist the history - notwithstanding your apology about it. Enough nonsense has been created because of that. We are not talking about social prejudices existing at that time, but a musical composition which had fabricated it.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 02 Jul 2017, 21:56

That "Nandanar Charithram" is not a completely accurate historical account seems quite apparent. It is a work of fiction set in a historical background, much like some of the works of Shakespeare or like "Bahubali 2"

But one cannot deny that it has gained traction and mindshare in the society at large. Even if one does not accept that it was a broad reflection of society, anyone who has been denied a leave application is sure to identify with the protagonist. "Periyapuranam" is full of much bigger whoppers - so we can cut GKB some slack. From Veda Vyasa to Valmiki to Shuka brahmam to Sekkizhar this seems to be quite standard practice. So GKB is no exception either.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 02 Jul 2017, 23:22

It is matter of belief that Nandanar was historical. Bharathi's work is a masterpiece on bhakthi from a person who would not be allowed to enter the temple where the deity of his adoration was. Even if Nandanar was historical, Bharathi has done nothing to belittle Nandanar, or, for that matter, to denigrate the community he was from.
How many versions of Ramayana do we have? Assuming Rama was historical, was that proper? DO we not have many songs based on the later versions of Ramayana? Even Thyagaraja's songs may all not be based on Valmiki Ramayana.
HAve not historical novels been written, even distorting the character (one way or the other) to suit the narrative?
What catches on is reality. As I see it, what attracts people is not the evil practices, but the pathos, the yearning, the poetic fancy, the flow, etc. that is all integral to art forms. Art grows in such environment.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 02 Jul 2017, 23:44

For the so called pathos, do you know who is bearing the brunt? It is the brahmin in the street - not the elites like Rajaji, Sadasivam, TTK, and Sundaram Iyengar and now TMK who are sitting in their posh bungalows and travelling in luxury cars. Do you know what is all happening on the ground? People's tuft and sacred thread were cut off at Kumbakonam.- my father was one such victim. Ordinary brahmins who are living in squalor and in the slums are abused everyday by goons for no fault of theirs, all because of historical injustice done; they have nowhere to go. Their women folk are poached, harrassed and murdered. Please do not involve in pep talk. Be on the ground to experience as to what it means to be a poor brahmin. Enough of this nonsense.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 03 Jul 2017, 00:10

The irony is that GKB himself was just one such poor brahmin & he most definitely did not intend to put people such as himself in poor light. And I am sure that successive movie adaptations went a few steps further in cementing such stereotypes. So I still feel that it is unfair to transfer the blame to GKB. Politicians are always eager to further such divisions & people fall prey to their machinations. Just witness the situation today with the Gau rakshaks & Kashmir burning.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 03 Jul 2017, 00:44

The injustice in society, no society has been an exception, is different from genuine creativity. It is wrong whoever suffers. But, the Nandanars also suffered for no fault of theirs.
How far is the injustice to Brahmins because of Nandanar? I do not sense the connection.
Should we say MArx should not have written Das Kapital because it was the inspiration for so much bloodshed?
Is not caste prejudice pervasive in much of our epics and puranas and even scripture? Unlike them, Nandanar does not try to further caste differences.
Caste is a blot and refuses to die down. Nandanar is not a contributory factor to it.
(I do not write IMO or IMHO; it is understood. Maugham wrote that he did not add 'I think' because he could write only his thoughts).

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 03 Jul 2017, 02:29

Govindan,
I wouldn't speak of those elders in the same vein as TMK who belongs to the present generation! Rajaji spent many years in prison. Sadasivam came from humble beginnings. TVS was a hard working man who led a simple life. His wife sold khadi in the streets of Madurai, inspired by the svadESi movement. She wore khadi, did not wear diamond earrings, and they each owned only a few sets of clothes. Hard work and social consciousness were their assets. Their children came to know of Bharathi's national songs before they reached Madras state. He 'smuggled' the songs for them, as his daughter would happily say!

Do you think class or caste comes into it, the way the young generation lives today?

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 03 Jul 2017, 03:00

Arasi,
The scenery I described about poaching, harrassment and murder are those of today. These are not exaggerations, but reality of Tamil Nadu brahmins - the poor brahmins who sustain themselves just by their grit and on those promises of 'paritrANAya sAdhUnAM' - an unkept promise as of date.

Kumbakonam - I was not born then; but Rajaji and others I quoted were very much leaders of the society. They were not in the firing line because of their class. Spending years in jail is no qualifier for failing to protect those who could not protect themselves and that too when one is a leader and could hobnob with the very perpetrators as friends. Let us not kid ourselves.

If there are any factual errors, please pardon me.

vkc,
Nandanar has no direct relationship with what is happening to Brahmin community today. But it is one of those straws in the bundle on the camel's back.

I do not have statistics of brahmins in Tamil Nadu. But in Delhi, 50% keepers of swacchalayas (toilets) and 50% of rickshaw pullers are brahmins of UP and Bihar. In Chennai, some of brahmins whom I know are working as sweepers - euphemism for toilet cleaners - in schools - no joke this.

Rickshaw pulling or cleaning toilet are not menial jobs which brahmins should not do. Then please do not talk of social injustice too.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 03 Jul 2017, 10:11

vgovindan wrote: ↑03 Jul 2017, 03:00 Nandanar has no direct relationship with what is happening to Brahmin community today. But it is one of those straws in the bundle on the camel's back.

There may be an analogy to the Ekalavya story from the Mahabharatha. While it may have been intended originally to demonstrate the Guru Bhakthi of a student, casteism in society has colored to make it a legend of oppression.

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 03 Jul 2017, 13:11

By spewing hatred against one commmunity a money minded miser without any attribute except a rich onion spicy vocabulary , found himself rocketed to the top of social popularity.political partiesgot the clue to derive political adavantage in a demagogy or democracy. They accentuated and perpetuated it to amass unimaginable wealth.
This political leverage created a "reverse discrimination" As pointed out by Govindan brahmins are now the victims NOT the perpetrators. One may be tempted to say " let them suffer for what their ancestors did." The consequence is the younger generation in most forward castes and brahmin families are now out of the country, chased out by ostracism.whil going out they have taken with them whatever they had, uncut poonals ,uncut tufts ,vedas, religion,fine arts...which are thriving there as in a virgin soil.
Some artists now seem to think that they also can take up this " social discrimination " tool . But it has lost its sharp edge, due to abuse by politicians.It is too late and you cannot whip a dead horse.this policy may not fetch them fortunes. Instead they may try to go abroad and start making funds collection for developing fine arts in "backward, most backward, and reserved" communities here.

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 03 Jul 2017, 13:18

duplication deleted

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 03 Jul 2017, 15:27

Suresh,
The wheel has come a full circle. Today it is the brahmin community which is being suppressed and oppressed. The upper class in brabmin community are cozily sitting in US and other foreign countries and/ or have posh bungalows at Tiruvanmiyur and Besant Nagar. They have made lower class - poor brahmins of Tamil Nadu - a convenient பலியாடு - sacrificial goat. Who cares about your musical elitism when people are struggling to survive? The FB is exploding with stories of பார்ப்பான் - slang for brahmin; and women are out in Chennai streets confronting goons.

Happy musical treats! God bless you! Kimdly ask TMK to continue his crusade.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 03 Jul 2017, 15:43

Ponbhairavi,
Thanks for speaking your mind. பட்ட காலிலேயே படும்; கெட்ட குடியே கெடும். (Sorry for others who can't read Tamil).

https://www.facebook.com/mahalakshmi.ba ... 3161548782

vijay.siddharth · Post by **vijay.siddharth** » 03 Jul 2017, 16:07

Good lord! I seem to have ignited quite the fire!

But I do agree that, from my limited exposure, Brahmins are not in a favourable position today. My conclusion comes from one observation, which is as follows:

My Tamil is a very brahminized Tamil. Even worse, it is a very 'Iyengar' tamil (sometimes I revert to Saathumuthu and Thertham instead of Rasam and thanni (water)). I am made to feel very self-conscious about my accent, and, as a result, I am struggling in a crisis about whether or not to speak in Tamil, for the accent is frequently (and, to my irritation), inaccurately lampooned. Yet, I do not see the same thing happening with the tamil of Gounders or Chettiars!

And about the Nandanar Charitram:

Again, I am no expert, but what struck me was the use of the word 'Paavi Parayan' (sinning Paraya) in Vazhi Maraithirukke (Nattaikurinchi). Of course, you've had characters like MDR camouflage it (humorously) as 'Paavi Paappan' (sinning Brahmin) (Paapan is a common appellation for Brahmin in the region of Palghat) - but some singers scuttle past the line without any notice or ignore the song altogether (which is unfortunate, for it is one of my favourite krithis in Nattakurinchi along with Mayamma)!

Please let me what you think

Cheers

Siddharth

vijay.siddharth · Post by **vijay.siddharth** » 03 Jul 2017, 16:08

vgovindan wrote: ↑03 Jul 2017, 15:27,
Today it is the brahmin community which is being suppressed and oppressed

Also shamed. The last time I blurted out 'Thertham', I got very strange looks.

Also, just a PSA to no one in particular: there are differences between Iyers and Iyengars!!!!!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 03 Jul 2017, 16:56

vgovindan wrote: ↑03 Jul 2017, 15:27 Suresh,
The wheel has come a full circle. Today it is the brahmin community which is being suppressed and oppressed.

I feel your pain, but cannot fully agree with you on the state of affairs as you describe it.

The upper class in brahmin community are cozily sitting in US and other foreign countries and/ or have posh bungalows at Tiruvanmiyur and Besant Nagar. They have made lower class - poor brahmins of Tamil Nadu - a convenient பலியாடு - sacrificial goat.

So now you are blaming the upper class (economic) for the travails of the lower class? Hope you will agree that the people setting cozily in the US or other foreign countries did it out of their own hard work rather than looking for any handouts here.

The FB is exploding with stories of பார்ப்பான் - slang for brahmin; and women are out in Chennai streets confronting goons.

FB is always exploding with something. I did see the video that you had posted, and appreciated the woman's sentiments - might have been better to not "confront the goons" but help them see the light.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 03 Jul 2017, 19:11

Suresh,
Kindly keep your homilies to yourself. You and your ilk like TMK are orchestrating genocide of brahmins in Tamil Nadu.

No one disputes that those who have made their lives, did it on their hard work. Then, did they remember those back home as to what infamy and calumny they are undergoing? No, Sir. You would not understand. I can see from your post that you are well deserved to be called upper class - a community within community led by the likes of TMK - who want to showcase themselves as uplifters of society, but in fact perpetrators of cruelty - nay genocide on - poor brahmins.

You may not remember the ending days of Indian Independence struggle and early days of Independence when brahmins of Tamil Nadu mass migrated to Bombay, Calcutta, Delhi etc.

Please, for God sake, stop your grandoise advices. You are about to witness genocide of brahmins of Tamil Nadu if no urgent interventionary measures are carried out.

I wish all the best for you and TMK. What I should I wish poor brahmins of Tamil Nadu - pray to God?

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 03 Jul 2017, 19:19

vgovindan wrote: ↑03 Jul 2017, 19:11
Kindly keep your homilies to yourself. You and your ilk like TMK are orchestrating genocide of brahmins in Tamil Nadu.

It looks like you are scarred beyond recovery to have a reasoned debate about this.
So I will stop here. Thank you for sharing your experiences.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 03 Jul 2017, 19:30

Suresh,
Yes Sir. I am scarred badly but not scared, because brahmins in every epoch had to face this because some of their own making and some outside their control. The kind of dharma that has been prescribed for brahmins, would not allow them - at least majority of them - to stoop and they believe in 'dharmO rakshati rakshitaH'.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 03 Jul 2017, 19:48

I have been out of TN for a long time. IS it really so dire for Brahmins?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 03 Jul 2017, 19:50

Govindan, friend,
You shine like a gem in your love, dedication and hard work you put into bringing to CM Tyagaraja Vaibhavam first, and then the glory of Guruguha and Syama Krishna which followed! No mean feat for a single individual. Your gift and in your wanting to share the meticulous and meaningful translations is, in the view of many of us a priceless gift--priceless for generations to come...

Siddharth, with all his musical fervor, has started voicing his frustrations about his tamizh vocabulary! Speak in english to them that mock you, I'd say! There are many other ways of enriching your tamizh!

PBhairavi,
Your gifts in writing and fervor for music are appreciated by many of us on Rasikas.org and elsewhere. Siddharth and others can be inspired by them!

Pasupathy's countless active contributions in bringing gems of writings in tamizh from many decades are examples of how some very active elder members live here in harmony with the young.

Whether the young members know it or not, quite a number of members are seniors here

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 03 Jul 2017, 20:14

Arasi,
My - you can call outburst - has nothing to do with the initiator of the post. It took an awkward turn when Nandanar was brought in and thereby implying social injustice 'perpetrated' by brahmins.

Sorry, I had to intervene to put things in perspective. But, yes, my thinking is not that of an outsider who could take a balanced view of things. I have gone through the rut the whole seventy - out of seventy five - years.

Contemporaneously things are not very clear but the trend is unmistakable - brahmins are the villains of the society. Things are not working out in their favour and they are losing the ground - and fast.

Rest, nothing very comforting in the short or long run for the poor brahmins of Tamil Nadu - not that you are unaware.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 03 Jul 2017, 21:33

The original issue was whether caste was in CM. There is no caste in CM, but it may be in the minds of the artists. The caste prejudices are from religious and social hangover and are not the product of CM. CM was and continues to be elitist as the audience is limited and an artist aspiring to make a living from it may not succeed always.
Then, Nandanar was introduced. The focus of Bharathi in Nandanar was Bhakthi and how bhakthi prevails over bigotry, not caste. Yes, there are derogatory terms used, but they reflected reality of social practice, not any attempt by the poet to justify them. Even the artists love it for its musical value, not for any caste feeling. Over time, many lyrics have been taken from the work, and have gained stature, like thiruvadi saranam. Particularly, Tamizh loving audience enjoy them and I do not think they stir any caste feelings.
The issue then veered to caste based oppression. There is no evidence that Nandanar has been responsible for the poor plight of some people. Poor people suffer irrespective of religion and caste.
The 'inaction' of people like Rajaji to stop hatred crimes was mentioned. It is ticklish to fix dharmic responsibility for this. Should Rajaji and others have not worked for the ideals? How would that have helped? Would there not have been worse backlash? Was it not for the govt. of the day to provide security? If the govt. fails or fans it by itself, how can certain individuals be blamed?
Caste is an evil that is well entrenched and art cannot wait for that monster to be put down. Art must go on on its terms and values, without being bogged down by misconceptions and miscarriages.
Is it a burden to carry the vestiges of Brahminhood? A friend of mine used to come with three distinct stripes on the forehead to office. He was interviewed by a foreign bank, but was told that his forehead must be clean. He did not want the job. That is a choice one has to make. Mimicking dialects etc. Is done worldwide. Why not join in the laughter? I do enjoy when Palghat Tamizh is mimicked. Cho has satirised Chennai Tamizh in his plays and films. I do not think we must take it to heart.
Are Brahmins in such a bad shape, worse than dalits and tribals, and many other such socially backward groups? I have no idea. Still, art is not the medium to address those issues. Those who indulge in linking the two because they draw their income from art are cantankerous. We need to keep the two separate. The suffering of the poor people will not be reduced by suppressing free ride to art.
We share our opinions here and there is no intention to preach. Opinions are neither right nor wrong. They are different ways of looking at the same thing.

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 03 Jul 2017, 21:58

Arasi , thanks for your kind words.
The wordings of GKBś maanji composition varugalamo are changed by most brahmin vidwans including KVN while singing in public in tamil nadu.They are aware that mere utterance of a particular word could attract them non bailable arrest warrant . Is there any non tamil composer whose lyrics warrant such change ?
every middle class brahmin living here bears scars and also woundswhich are periodically poked.Which parental heart will not bleed when his son or daughter looks up in his face and asks "Dad why the 99 per cent i got did not get me what some one elseś 25 per cent got for him.?. The silence in my response does not reveal to him that "my son my only prayer is that your son is not pushed to a situation when he would ask you the same question

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 03 Jul 2017, 22:43

kvchellappa wrote: ↑03 Jul 2017, 21:33 Is it a burden to carry the vestiges of Brahminhood?

I think this is the million dollar question!

A friend of mine used to come with three distinct stripes on the forehead to office. He was interviewed by a foreign bank, but was told that his forehead must be clean. He did not want the job. That is a choice one has to make.

Seemed it was for your friend. But he would rather carry the burden.

vijay.siddharth · Post by **vijay.siddharth** » 04 Jul 2017, 18:38

arasi wrote: ↑03 Jul 2017, 19:50 Siddharth, with all his musical fervor, has started voicing his frustrations about his tamizh vocabulary! Speak in english to them that mock you, I'd say! There are many other ways of enriching your tamizh!

Dear Arasi madam (please let me know if that is okay, or you prefer any variants of the same!)

I love speaking in Tamil, especially the way the syllables roll off my tongue. It is therefore a massive pain for me to not speak in Tamil to those who don't know it, and feel self-conscious about it! I write and read Tamil very well, and it is only the spoken department I sorely wish to improve upon in...

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 04 Jul 2017, 20:04

Arasi, you nailed it with those "Let joy alone
Be its creed "

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 04 Jul 2017, 20:15

kvchellappa wrote: ↑03 Jul 2017, 21:33 Yes, there are derogatory terms used, but they reflected reality of social practice, not any attempt by the poet to justify them.

There was no derogatory term - that was made derogatory just like many other good terms (like pArpAn). Thiruvalluvar may have been from that kulam ( if there were indeed kulams then).

Nandanar caritram for GB could have been a metaphorical description of the struggle to merge with the lord for anybody - not just the people referred to - ofcourse using the social situation!

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 05 Jul 2017, 09:02

Is it just me, or is the Carnatic music sung by non-brahmins like Somu and Desikar and even MLV (from what I understand, she was from the Devadasi community) far more 'raw' than the likes of Brahmin musicians like DK Pattammal?
Please add your thoughts below, and if it is a stupid/tactless question (the latter of which is a speciality of mine

It is stupidly tactlessly worded too.To answer your question, IT IS JUST YOU .And for that you need you need to answer some basic questions.
What is it you are searching for ?
What is it you propose to do now - other than talk/discuss ?
What is it you have would have done to change something ,if you could go back in time.

btw - if you are really young into music - as you indicate - you are wasting a lot of time.
Take it from someone who has fewer years than you .
MAN , you are wasting time-energy BIGTIME.

vijay.siddharth · Post by **vijay.siddharth** » 05 Jul 2017, 11:12

varsha wrote: ↑05 Jul 2017, 09:02 It is stupidly tactlessly worded too.To answer your question, IT IS JUST YOU .And for that you need you need to answer some basic questions.
What is it you are searching for ?
What is it you propose to do now - other than talk/discuss ?
What is it you have would have done to change something ,if you could go back in time.

btw - if you are really young into music - as you indicate - you are wasting a lot of time.
Take it from someone who has fewer years than you .
MAN , you are wasting time-energy BIGTIME.

Dear Sir/Madam

I didn't realise that it was the case. I think more of myself as a thinker for the simple reason that I don't have that many people to talk to about Carnatic music, and it was just as a stray thought which struck (one of my many...). Please let me know what would be a more productive way of using my time and energy, and I will follow that up. Again, to all members of Rasikas.org, my most sincere apologies. It was just the flush and excitement of getting a membership.

Mods, please lock this thread if you wish to.

Apologies, and yours truly,

Siddharth

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 05 Jul 2017, 11:29

To start with
You can get rid of thinking about caste in music . And just enjoy the music for its worth .
Let the music of the three you mention make you soar - they are not raw by any stretch of imagination .
If the track was not traceable to a name , you could barely trace its brahminic origins ,
Back on the ground let your information on the subject of caste - in any field of endeavour - be at its worst , a source of collective responsibility from the past. As a way to the future.
...
You could also benefit by reading the English translation of SL Bhyrappas kannada novel - vamsha vruksha
Or see the hindi version of the movie on you tube
Yours or anyone else's brahminism goes only as far as you hit an inflexion point.
It is not even skin deep

ram1999 · Post by **ram1999** » 05 Jul 2017, 12:26

vijay.siddharth wrote: ↑02 Jul 2017, 18:40
sureshvv wrote: ↑02 Jul 2017, 18:30 None of the doors that opened up for TMK (or any other contemporary musician) is because of caste
Wasn't TMK's first concert organised because his uncle TT Vasu wanted him to perform? How many musicians did TT Vasu actively seek to perform in the Academy?

what is caste got to do with this ?? ridiculous !!
The opportunity given perhaps was because TMK was related to TTV and it is more a favoritism/special consideration !!

vijay.siddharth · Post by **vijay.siddharth** » 05 Jul 2017, 12:35

ram1999 wrote: ↑05 Jul 2017, 12:26 what is caste got to do with this ?? ridiculous !!
The opportunity given perhaps was because TMK was related to TTV and it is more a favoritism/special consideration !!

This was to draw contrast with Dandapani Desikar, who, according to Madurai GS Mani, was denied chances in the Academy (or any other Madras Sabha) was denied chances because of his caste. He was also disrespected in AIR and was treated more like a light music artiste despite the classicism in his music according to Sanjay Subhramanyam.

semmu86 · Post by **semmu86** » 05 Jul 2017, 12:43

vijay.siddharth wrote: ↑05 Jul 2017, 12:35 This was to draw contrast with Dandapani Desikar, who, according to Madurai GS Mani, was denied chances in the Academy (or any other Madras Sabha) was denied chances because of his caste. He was also disrespected in AIR and was treated more like a light music artiste despite the classicism in his music according to Sanjay Subhramanyam.

With due respects ultimately, what is your point? And what is that you are trying to achieve or state or correct by starting this thread? No Sarcasm here. Am trying to ask this in the most constructive manner possible.