Question on Shruti sense for kids

[skumar]

Hi all,
Namaskarams. I am new to this group and there is a reason why I joined this group being a small wish for my 6 year old daughter to be able to learn carnatic music. I am not trained neither do I hail from a family that has stalwarts in the field nor anyone I know who learnt classical singing. I wanted my daughter to learn and hence enrolled her in a class when she was 5.5 years- she is and was very resistant, this was a 1:1 class- it was and is very hard for me to take her to the class let alone make her sing. 2-3 months we went weekly once, and post that we had to move to the US which put a pause to the learning (arnd 4 months) and we restarted once we settled down here with the same teacher over Skype. As you all must have guessed, it did not go great ( sept, oct, nov). We had to stop her class yesterday, as according to her teacher she was not singing in shruti and her voice did not have it. I have huge respect for her teacher, no doubt but i was shattered to be honest . I still do not feel like giving up on it fully and still feel she will be able to do it. Her thalam is excellent and reading notes all good, but the main ingredient seems to be missing - not sure if i just take it as told by the teacher. I feel I did a mistake of doing a 1:1 training, maybe seeing other kids of her age sing, she might have got motivated. I feel i should not have agreed for Skype classes. The question for all you great knowledgeable people of this forum, is it really an inborn trait (Shruti/music)? One cannot train to tune to it to better it? Do I still give one more try? Or should I just give up on her learning carnatic. Please advice.

Also, is there anyone who was told they could not sing and went on to doing a commendable job? This is HOPE

Thanks,
Sincere Parent.

[nadhasudha]

Hi skumar,

My 2 cents...

If the child does not evince interest in Carnatic music training in the regular way, better to expose her to bhajans. There is so much of bhajan music out there in youtube which you can expose to your child to and see if she likes singing along or listening to.

The classical training methodology is very rigorous with its emphasis on varisais and alankaarams. As a general rule kids hate learning and practicing varisais. They like Geethams and small songs. So for someone who is not terribly excited about music, Carnatic music training may be too much in the initial stages.

Let the child take baby steps towards listening to music in the bhajans and then she can graduate to learning Carnatic if the interest persists.

Some kids are born with better sense of Shruti than others. Having said that, Shruti sense is something that can be developed and classical music helps with that.

You could also see if your child is interested in playing instruments. You can get her a keyboard and help her with exploring and having fun with trying to play notes on the keyboard.

Once your child starts enjoying the music, then she will develop the interest. They need to have fun and then the learning happens!

Skype and 1:1 classes are better for advanced students. For beginners group lessons and face to face are better.

[skumar]

Hello,
Thank you for your response. Your words are reassuring and informative. I will try to take it slow as you suggest and try with small bhajans. Keyboard is a nice thought. Skype and 1:1 was a big mistake, I realized it in 3 months more so with mine not interested in singing sa re ga ma all the time . I am not giving up, its almost a sadhana for the mother as well . Thank you very much.

With Regards,
Sujatha.

[VK RAMAN]

Teaching starts from how you expose your child to music and bhajans from the day you are pregnant and how much interest you take. One of the parents must sing along while the baby learns. Bhajans, fast pace, will be of interest. Does she sing at all and if so can you tune the sruthi to her singing, instead asking her to sink with the already set sruthi. During practice at home, let one of you sing along with her. Many children learn through Osmosis.

[skumar]

Hi Sir,
Thanks for your reply. Yes, she sings songs (her school songs - not Carnatic at home). If I sit and ask her to do along for few mins she does it and when I say she got it right, she runs away saying I got it right now let me play . But yeah, I am playing Bhajans at home now, and she seems to be liking them. Seems to be a good start at least. I will try and do everything possible. Rest is with maa Saraswati only. I wish I was trained in Carnatic to help her more but I have to do what best I can and just hope she picks it up.

With Regards,
Sujatha.

[Always_Evolving]

is it really an inborn trait (Shruti/music)? One cannot train to tune to it to better it?

Dear Skumar:

Sense of sruti and music is definitely something that one can and does train in, and in fact to me -- is the primary job of the teacher. It's just like saying one cannot "get" arithmetic. While some 4-year old kids can compute 4-digit multiplications by themselves, the rest of us just need to go about learning the principles and practicing it. Some people may be born gifted with a great ear, it doesn't mean sruti is always perfect for them either.

Your child is just six and may not enjoy being coaxed into structured Carnatic learning yet. Please do listen to whatever kind of music you enjoy, and if she is around, she will absorb some of it too. If she likes singing other songs (folk / bhajan etc.) do some natural singing with her. I would say, without any judgemental statements about whether she has got it "right" or not... after all, the idea is for her to enjoy the music. Eventually you may find a circumstance and teacher that will suit her.

It may be useful to reflect on why you want your child to learn CM. (You don't need to answer this, it may throw up some insights into your need here.... )

HTH
- Radhika

[bala747]

Best way for your child to learn is for you to start learning.

[skumar]

Thank you Radhika mam and Bala sir for you response. I know my answer as to why I want my child to learn CM but as one key thing I was able to understand is the fun aspect to learning which actually makes the learning happen for kids. I will not force her into anything that she does not enjoy/have fun doing. I am trying my best to implement every advice I have received here - to figure out what she really likes with respect to music. I sincerely thank all of you for your help and advice. This is definitely reassuring to me and Radhika mam that analogy to arithmetic was a good way to explain Shruti sense to me and putting all my doubts and fears to rest. thank you all from the bottom of my heart.

With Regards,
Sujatha.

[bala747]

You don't have to force. Kids don't like being forced anyway. Unfortunately carnatic music doesn't have the simplistic appeal of popular music, set to an easy beat or whatnot.

But almost all music is underpinned in some form or another by CM. I recall once having to play Metallica's Master of Puppets on the violin for a friend's fusion piece. Basically keeravani with some Natabhairavi thrown in, and one spectacular use of the Shuddha rishaba in the final "MASTER!".

Appreciation of music is different from learning it as an art form. So you have on one hand an appreciation of music, which is harder with CM than other forms, and learning music, where CM is superior to others because it teaches the basics of pretty much any kind of music. So there is definitely value in teaching CM to kids, even if there is no value in it as a performance art these days.

Your child is still very young. What need is there to put her in a class now? I went for music classes since I was 5. I hated every one of them until I picked up the violin. It wasn't the fault of the teacher or the music, but the disconnect between appreciating music and learning it was very real.

Instead why not you go for classes and practise at home? Sooner or later your child will pick up on it. We picked up music because my mother would be constantly singing, and someone would always be playing a record/cassette of GNB or Semmangudi. Make a game out of identifying ragas. It's better to develop an ounce of kelvi jnanam than slogging away for hours practising swaravali varisais.

[bala747]

My daughter learns bharatanatyam, but she too didn't see value in it until her first performance on stage. Now she can't wait to go for classes!

[skumar]

Dear Bala Sir,

I am really not sure what is the right age to start learning CM or for that matter any art form, if age is even a limit. As some of you mentioned, some kids do well when they are much younger, some take time. For me, I was told she needs to be 5-6 years old, as by this age she will be able to read the notes for singing. From day 1 of her class, she did not want to go but I felt she was very young to understand the benefit in it and one day she will appreciate it and be happy in the long run.

For me, I do not want her to learn CM to perform or anything, just a thought that music is a lifelong companion one can have, best medicine to heal anything, tunes to our various moods. I wanted her to be able to sing just for herself giving her that content feeling..it is a strong connection to the divine. What I saw it in for me - was in seeing her sing in our pooja room , to fill our home with that peace that music brings in. But, all these thoughts crushed when her classes did not go as expected and when her teacher declared(I mean literally) she will not be able to sing due to lack of shruti sense (This was never taught/mentioned on how to do it right- some may say its god's gift), which made me ask this question in this forum.

I wanted to really understand from all of you who have immense knowledge in CM, if this indeed was true and something that I cannot fix. I have been advised on few things to try before I give up - yes, if she never takes to it, I will drop this thought of making her learn.

After a few mistakes from my side, I have decided to give her time, wait it out and see if she shows some cues on wanting to sing.

Many have advised me to learn, ah I so wish I would have learnt it when young. I have another kid(2 year old), a job to be at, which makes it hard to find time, but this is no excuse, as I also have interest in learning. I will see if I can get started as well if I find a good teacher in the place where I live.

I am just hoping for things to turn up the way I want but in the end "He" decides what is best for us and I am sure I will treat it as "His" will if we don't succeed in this pursuit.

Thanks a lot,

With Regards,
Sujatha.

[thenpaanan]

... We had to stop her class yesterday, as according to her teacher she was not singing in shruti and her voice did not have it. I have huge respect for her teacher, no doubt but i was shattered to be honest . I still do not feel like giving up on it fully and still feel she will be able to do it. ...

I do not know how to motivate young kids to start learning Carnatic music at a young age and stick to it. I am myself facing this problem as you are.

On the question of sruthi training I have used one trick. I have an old electronic sruthi box (it is now 25 years old) that has to be manually tuned. At the beginning of every class I have one of the students tune the box (i.e. once the saarani is chosen, adjust the other three notes appropriately). I found that it helps the student listen keenly to the sruthi since getting the notes aligned is not an easy task. Of course one needs to have access to such a box -- I noticed that these days electronic sruthi boxes come with preset notes so you don't have to do any tuning yourself. But I have to add that I have had far too few students to say with any confidence that this technique is effective in inculcating knowledge of sruthi in young students (most of the few students I have had abandoned me at the one year point!). But since no other recommendations have been posted here I thought I would offer this -- it might be of some use to others.

You have asked a foundational question for teaching our music and yet we don't seem to have any answers at all in our pedagogy!

-Thenpaanan

[msakella]

You have already tried some methods in this respect but could not succeed. As you are so anxious about your kid in this respect, would you allow me to try? My email address is ‘msakella2002@gmail.com. and if you are interested try to send me the audio-files of some of her singing items along with Shruti-box and Metronome. After listening to those items I shall try to try. amsharma

[skumar]

Hello msakella,
Sorry for the late reply. I had not logged in for a while. She has learnt it only for 4 months to be precise. She has just done the sarali, janti, 7thalas, dhatu and few upper stayi varisai. her teacher asked me to start her with some instrumental and not insist on her learning Carnatic as she believed that by this time she had to be singing placing the notes correctly for the above varisai which my kid was unable to get it right (though sometimes she did). She clearly told me my kid does not have the Shruthi sense and she can learn Carnatic for interest sake but will never sing in Shruthi . I have given my child a break for 6 months to 1 year before I attempt to try one more time. Her teacher's comments lead to me asking this question on this forum to all the knowledgeable people here.

Thenpaanan Sir- thank you for your reply.

Thanks,
Sujatha.

[msakella]

Hello Chi. Sow. Sujatha dear, Each and every music-teacher has his\her own experiences and accordingly they guide you. There is nothing wrong in making more trials in this respect to get success. In this respect I have suggested you to do something. and if you are so interested you can do so or you can even show me your daughter by Skype for proper guidance. My Skype ID is ‘msakella2002’. You can even speak to my phone No.9908822992, fix some time to meet on Skype and show me your daughter as you please. amsharma