Indira Gandhi Award for National Integration for TM Krishna

K Nagarajan · Post by **K Nagarajan** » 01 Nov 2017, 11:00

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 958485.ece

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 01 Nov 2017, 11:43

Shame!
In 1990, Indira Gandhi award for promoting National Integration was presented to Smt.M.S.Subbulakshmi by the late martyred Sri.Rajeev Gandhi.
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... kshmi/home
That was befitting as the award was honoured by the person in whose name it was given Smt.Indira Gandhi, a martyr herself for the very same value of National Unity, the person who handed over to Smt.MS and the recipient Smt.MS herself..
https://youtu.be/IlBN6EDB1D8
Smt.MS was a true and tireless worker for the cause of National Unity. mainly through her devotional songs in all the languages including Sanskrit ( Tamil, Malayalam, Kannada, Telugu, Marathi, Gujarathi, Hindi , Urdu, Bengali and Punjab) Not only that. She toured all over India and held concerts in the respective states for raising funds for noble philanthropic causes. She had the best of admiration for Hindusthani classical music and its traditions and ustads and had the best among Hindusthani classical musicians , as her admirers. . What is the record of the present recipient? In every count, he fails. It is not enough if one is proficient in music . How that proficiency is used for noble causes is more important. .. MS Amma never indulged in gimmics and pseudo-intellectualism. She was very much a product of the golden years of our freedom struggle . and had imbibed its great noble and cultural values. She did not lecture to others. She lived those values. The award has been demeaned today

thanjavooran · Post by **thanjavooran** » 01 Nov 2017, 13:13

For a while let us sink our differences and wish him good luck.
A Tamilian from south is getting this award.
Thanjavooran
01 11 2017

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 01 Nov 2017, 15:50

I do not think we should go by provincialism. Either he deserves it or he does not. We should not be coloured how we perceive it either by our prejudices against him or the fact of which region or sect he belongs to. I am prejudiced and see it as the culmination of his marxist and anti-hindu outbursts that have a wide currency, and establishments like The Anti-Hindu and Indira Gandhi foundation are bound to honour him. Wish him good luck in his personal life and to get into art perspective in art where he excels and balanced perspective in social activities where he dabbles.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 01 Nov 2017, 15:51

Should this not be in the lounge?

thanjavooran · Post by **thanjavooran** » 01 Nov 2017, 17:17

Yes Shri Chellappa, I fully agree with you.
We don't encourage by coloring it on province base. Anyway we bless him to get more accolades in his personal life.
Thanjavooran
01 11 2017

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 01 Nov 2017, 18:48

Anyway we bless him to get more accolades in his personal life.

Well... No, we don't.

I have no great bone (veg or non-veg) to pick with TMK. I discovered his music late, only in the past couple of years, and I think it is wnderful. I wish I had spent more time listening to him sing, rather than listening to people singing about him. If he is given accolades for his musical life, then, even if others lament, I will be one of those to cheer, congratulate and bless.

But TMK as a personality, as a celebrity, no, I don't get it.

If they expand its scope beyond science, maybe TMK might be be in line for an Ignobel for the arts, for going outside and beyond convention. But TMK-saves-the-world awards? No. There seems to have been built up some sort of mythical TMK, like something built by PR folk. I am not saying that he has done this intentionally. And I am not saying that he does not have good intentions. Just...

TMK Integrates the nation? Really? I wonder whether even he thinks he has. Ok, he accepted the award, I suppose.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 01 Nov 2017, 19:08

thanjavooran wrote: ↑01 Nov 2017, 13:13 A Tamilian from south is getting this award.

Lets expand this. We should be happy that a musician ( or if somewhat narrower , an Indian traditional musician, or even narrower a Carnatic musician ) is getting this award. Previously it was A.R. Rahman.

What we should do to celebrate this is to have a debate - not on the merits of the award - rather use this as an opportunity to push alternate point of views into limelight.

That TMK gave us this opportunity is his biggest achievement.

The Congress party in the AICC conclave ( the gala) prior to their defeat would have had some cultural programs. Did they have a Carnatic concert?

Indira Gandhi created vote banks and disempowered regional leaders like Kamaraj and Nijalingappa. History would have that as the root of disintegration if India ever disintegrates!

Those are the kind of things we should be talking about.

ram1999 · Post by **ram1999** » 01 Nov 2017, 19:16

Indira Gandhi and National Integration - It is a bloody joke. the way things are today in our country, anything that is related to the nehru and gandhi (the real and pseudo) family being responsible and therefore in itself is a joke.

And Krishna being given that award perhaps is therefore appropriate

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 01 Nov 2017, 19:26

Let us not rip apart each other. Let this subject rest in peace

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 01 Nov 2017, 21:08

"Those are the kind of things we should be talking about."
But, that may not be kind!

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 01 Nov 2017, 21:49

I don't know why we should run away from controversy. We don't have to be glib and belittle anything or anybody here.

The left pursues its agenda with so much venom.

http://indianexpress.com/article/resear ... a-4915468/

No mention of Sethupathi who sponsored Swami Vivekananda, and started a Tamizh Sangam etc.

The Left is obsessed with power and even creates Strawmen on who held power when they really did not and they were corrupted by the British to the core. All of this is done in the name of Sub-altern studies and their point of view!

Arasi was talking about Bharathi's lofty words. But I like Tirunelveli Halwa and the reason I can taste that vs. Bakhlawa is because of countless amount of Kingdoms that resisted! It is easy to speak those things from down South.

Does the left even talk about these people? http://www.newsbred.com/why-gandhi-fell-out-arya-samaj

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 02 Nov 2017, 00:57

Around 1902, Subbarama Dikshitar the Great, the grandson of Muthuswamy Dikshitar brought out the monumental work, Sangeeta Sampradaya Pradarshini (Telugu) along with hundreds of music compositions written in symbolised notation as he rightly thought that symbolised notation only helps the aspirant a lot to rely upon and work independently in learning our music very quickly and efficiently which also paves way to diminish the importance of the so called Gurus. But, as these Gurus, the conservatives and egoists of musicians who mostly dominate the music-field, are not at all willing to loose their stature, have openly praised the author profusely but none of them did not use or develop or propagate this symbolised notation (some of them utilised them only to get their own Doctorates). This is one glaring example in our country to say that very rarely true merit will be recognised and encouraged.

In the same manner Dr. Mrs. Prasanna, working as music-teacher in the Telangana Social Welfare Residential Educational Institutions, is a very highly talented music-teacher, who, even without singing herself even for a minute in any of the classes, had brought out nearly 63 kids belonging to the down trodden castes of the school up to the level of Varnas within a span of hardly 2 years. They very efficiently sing not only the Varnas (both the Purvanga and Uttaranga @ 4-6-8 notes) but also creative and mathematical Swarakalpana to the Kritis even without learning even a single Kriti (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=25807&p=320759#p320759 & https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 6uikF91ekv).

The State Government has given her the ‘Best-teacher-award’ and washed the hands but even if she represents a number of times she has never been given the needed instruments or enough encouragement to continue her work more efficiently. Two years back, when I was invited by them to hold a workshop in this respect and gave me few thousands of Rupees as remuneration I, utilising this amount, have purchased 7 Casios and other musical instruments and donated to her class.

Even though she has been doing the real and highly appreciable service in doing so she has not been given any National Awards but others, who does not do this kind of work, only will get them. This is the state of affairs in this country in recognising the true talent. amsharma

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 02 Nov 2017, 07:55

Tirunelveli halwa is next only to our tamiravarNi banks heritage

Too much is spoken about TMK as he does, speaking about this and that. Here at Rasikas.org, It's 'give the dog a bone' for many. I don't want to comment on the award, but ha, how can I go away without saying something, when the topic is TMK? As we rake our brains to separate the vidvAn from his other entities, all I can visualize is another clear-cut route for him--politics...

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 02 Nov 2017, 09:40

He is a politician whether he is in politics or not.

Sivaramakrishnan · Post by **Sivaramakrishnan** » 02 Nov 2017, 11:11

TMK knows to keep himself in limelight.

ram1999 · Post by **ram1999** » 02 Nov 2017, 12:40

ram1999 · Post by **ram1999** » 02 Nov 2017, 13:16

Clearly a thank you note / speech to appease the congrASS leadership. Buttering nicely and shamelessly.

I do not understand the need for him to raise the issue of the 1984 riots and manmohan's apology and an unwarranted statement on Gujarat riots being targeted intentionally and indirectly .... "A leader who does not have the humility to apologise for genocide under his watch does not integrate.". clearly a mischief monger !!

krishna does not know that the congrASS was whole and sole behind the 1984 riots whereas all the Courts in India have acquitted Modi/BJP of the Godhra riots.

It is a cheap action on krishna's part to talk something strange and unrelated and gain political mileage. Sad that he is resorting to such low levels !!

https://scroll.in/article/856196/a-lead ... tm-krishna

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 02 Nov 2017, 14:26

A definite proof that he is a politician.
I do not know the truth about Modi's role in Guj riots, but he does not have to apologise for a sin he has not done and he maintains that he was not the author or abettor of the riots. He has certainly expressed regret about the deaths of innocent lives, of both communities. It is certainly ungentlemanly to accuse a person of a crime he has no means to verify and believe in.
It is travesty that MMS apologised for the riots; his community was on the receiving end and the dynasty must have apologised as engineers of the riots.
With this, the reason for his award is plain to see and is utterly undeserved. A man who wants to integrate does not open old wounds. That only serves to divide.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 02 Nov 2017, 14:30

the dynasty must have apologised as engineers of the riots.

That's so gentlemanly!

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 02 Nov 2017, 15:41

It is not, but I am exercising the right which TMK has assumed. While the role of the dynasty in the mass killing may not be proved like in the case of Bofors, their role in dividing the country on communal and religious lines, and doing everything possible to remain in power can be proved. They ruled the country for a lion's share post-independence and are to blame for whatever India is lacking today. TMK does not have the decency, courage or impartiality to see things and comment on them with an even hand. While he will shed tears for Kashmiris, he will not speak a word about the pundits. While he will not mind accusing Hindus he will never say a word about the wrongs of others. While he will speak of post-Godhra riots, he will never have a word to say anything about the atrocities that go under the name of religious fanaticism that is seizing hold of the world today. He is a typical politician and I will not be surprised if he joins the queue with Sibals and Chidambarams. The award to him is unmerited and his reference to the Guj riots and Delhi riots was unwarranted and the comparison was bad in intent.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 02 Nov 2017, 20:19

Modi and Congress can deal with these issues themselves. TMK raising it is part of his political views. This is a diversion again.

The real issue is we have an entire Tamizh society in our state - where Brahmins have lived for centuries and other communities have tilled for us, without which we cannot have food on the table ( அவர்கள் சேற்றில் கையை வைத்தாலே நாம் சோற்றில் கையை வைக்க முடியும்!) .

TMK has been seen on stage with Ford Foundation (Phillipines), with Communists ( recently ) and with Kashmiri Seperatists (Ananya VajpEyi) and with the Congress Central leadership. He has had a trip to David Shulman's ( Tamizh Scholar) place!

But not one real Dravidian party voice ( AIADMK, DMK ) which represents significant Tamizh constituency has seemed to have reacted. Did any of them congratulate him for receiving the awards? It seems just to talk between us, we need all these external forces, paradigms , language. We don't have one common Indic paradigm or language to talk within us!

Same reason Tamizh is being punted to Harvard. No university that is resident in Tamizhnadu has credibility regarding this to study and publish on tamizh history and be quoted / cited - and we go gaga over David Shulman and his scholarship.

If you listen to these talks - there is substantial viewpoint and you can improve the depth of Tamizh as well listening to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZM_7iwltP8

And significant section of powerful in Tamizhnadu is odds with this kind of scholarship due to political reasons and hence they are punting it to Harvard! Even they cannot talk amidst themselves!

The above talk has several answers to the Pronunciation thread: M. P Sivagnanam ( ma. pO. ci) - silmabuccellvar - a disciple of Rajaji did not get Brahmin priests to officiate his daughter's wedding because Telugu Brahmin priests who recite correctly were not easily available. He has noted that in his biography recalling a conversation in this regard with Rajai - when handing over invitation. And that myth was apparently propagated by Dalavai Ramappaiyer - the general / minster for Tirumalai nAyakkar - the Madurai King.

Elsewhere I heard a talk that said he was also the one to replace Pazhani Murugan priests who were panDarAs - the Saiva priests with Brahmin priests!

I would love RSR to view these and dissect these in a Tamizh forum or History forum. of-course setting aside his (:cough:) comradery

In effect we are doing a pUrva Paksh - study of the other - if you will of OUR OWN PEOPLE!! - ....sigh....

thanjavooran · Post by **thanjavooran** » 03 Nov 2017, 07:30

IMO this discussion is taking a political turn instead of provincial.
Thanjavooran
03 11 2017

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 03 Nov 2017, 09:01

Possibly, the entire thread may be junked.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 03 Nov 2017, 21:39

http://www.dnaindia.com/lifestyle/inter ... ew-2556019

Good interview with some very convincing arguments and opinions.

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 06 Nov 2017, 19:31

A certain world-view based on deep study of pre-war (First World War) and historical developments from 1850 decade..( First War of Independence in India, The American Civil War, The Chartist movement in England, Paris Commune in France , and the Taiping Revolution in China ) is needed to understand the great work done by Lenin, Stalin, Nehru and Indira Gandhi. It is significant that the USA never had a Left movement. ( with a few exceptions like Edmund Wilson the author of To the Finland Station, Gunther, Louis Fischer, Anna Louis Strong and of course Edgar Snow. This is not a suitable forum for talking about them. Left-of-Center politics is not and need not be dogmatic ideology and cheap gimmicks. Googling for the 'recipients of the award under question, we find great souls like Dr.Abdul Kalam , Acharya Thulasi, Swamy Ranaganathanandha, P.N.Haksar , Mohan Dharia, besides Smt.MS in the list. SRI.TMK is nowhere near any of them. The blame is to be shared equally between the awards committee and the recipient. He could have declined the award. . For the world-view , interested readers can refer to
https://sites.google.com/site/rsrpages/... (just a collection of articles). Not for discussion.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 06 Nov 2017, 21:21

Today is the grand finale of KBC. Kailash Satyarthi is the special contestant. He won 50L.
He narrated how in 1969, during the Gandhi Centenary, as an idealist 15 year old, he and his friends arranged a dinner, to be cooked by women of untouchable caste, which would be served to prominent citizens and politicians, as a demonstration of India's true adherence to Gandhi's Harijan movement. The buffet was ready. But none of the dignitaries came, making sorry excuses. He cried, was one of the few who partook of the dinner, much to the satisfaction and blessing of the Harijan women. He then went home only to face the wrath of the Brahmin priests who were waiting late into the night and his family. He was banished as an outcaste to an outhouse aa he wouldn't go for their Dharmic atonement ritual.

He decided to continue his fight, and abandoned his caste name Sharma and changed it to Satyarthi.

He told many gut-wrenching stories of children who had been ruthlessly exploited. Those stories will haunt me for a long time.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 07 Nov 2017, 07:55

RSR wrote: ↑06 Nov 2017, 19:31 we find great souls like Dr.Abdul Kalam , Acharya Thulasi, Swamy Ranaganathanandha, P.N.Haksar , Mohan Dharia, besides Smt.MS in the list. SRI.TMK is nowhere near any of them.

The very sense of this award conveys a message that Integration has been achieved synthetically with efforts of people when the events surrounding the creation of the country disproves that. If you read the Ramachandra Guha article, it conveys that sense that some individuals were just able to convince - powerless indigent princes to accede. The trouble with Kashmir accession tells you as much!

The Left claiming to represent the cause of the people, focuses on who it wants to focus on to construct the narrative even falsely. Subversive in thought itself.

The fact is some faiths do not accept and respect other faiths, when the word tolerance itself is meaningless! Do you tolerate your family at the dinner table?

The left does not want to acknowledge that the unity is integral not synthetic and does not want to acknowledge the heritage and cultural underpinnings - for reasons like treatment of Women and Dalits in the past.

Is it that easy for a Woman walk safely in the street? How much does it take to make that happen - assuming you are told to make it happen from scratch?

sreebeecane · Post by **sreebeecane** » 07 Nov 2017, 10:35

Discovered this a few years ago and I have been happy ever since: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem

Disclaimer: This is a work of fiction. Names, characters, businesses, places, events and incidents are either the products of the author's imagination or used in a fictitious manner. Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, or actual events is purely coincidental.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 07 Nov 2017, 11:14

You have only 116 posts so far - so keep trying

ram1999 · Post by **ram1999** » 07 Nov 2017, 16:21

I guess Krishna and Kamala Hassan will make a perfect team. Both have lost their heads and are making unwarranted comments !!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 07 Nov 2017, 16:37

Which is the comment you disagree with

?

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 07 Nov 2017, 21:29

https://www.navjivanindia.com/people/hi ... ry-krishna

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 07 Nov 2017, 21:36

https://www.nationalheraldindia.com/int ... ss-culture

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 09 Nov 2017, 10:08

https://www.nationalheraldindia.com/int ... ss-culture
The classical Brahamnical culture never gives you this freedom. We have lost Devdasi voice and face from music and dance. It is a loss. Brahmins segregate things into classical and folk forms.

Which Brahmin/traditional literature of any kind segregated folk and classical.? The word classicism entered only when CM opinion leaders ( I don't know if I have to mention their caste here - a pillaival musician would have stood by his tradition as much as anybody else) speaking in English started using that term. They didn't segregate the art into two forms - stupid - they were segregated in the first place - when they urbanized! Agraharams may have been separate streets - but as a community they had large dependence for survival (consequently lot of interaction) on the rest of the people!

Samskriti arose in the forest (Aranyams) even more remote that folk art would have. Using that term in place of classical makes for lot of difference. Samskriti means it can evolve and change - not stuck to some classical era. If Brahmins got into music for whatever reason - why would they not put their footprint on it?

When communities themselves are disintegrating ( except where some traditional causes are promoted ) and people don't know their neighbors and I cannot talk one thing about tradition or anything @ water cooler - except movie jokes - where is any genuine future for real expressive art - except technique and virtuosity taking center stage?

If Dalits are going to make use of rAgAs to put forth their woes - and somebody is going to listen to them better than before - by all means! That is saying whatever their art is currently is not having any effect! Why? Because we segregated folk and classical? - banal!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 09 Nov 2017, 12:47

https://youtu.be/C-Ua6VHCfl8?t=76

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 09 Nov 2017, 12:50

shankarank wrote: ↑09 Nov 2017, 10:08
Which Brahmin/traditional literature of any kind segregated folk and classical.?

The faux Brahmins that TMK hangs out with?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Nov 2017, 14:41

Awards, awards...

Now the city of Chennai has got a UNESCO award as a Creative City.

Mr Modi has congratulated the people of Chennai.

If I was his speech writer, I would have put it differently. It would also be the other side, the true side, in my humble opinion, to the Brahmin-exclusivity rant of TMK or anybody else.

I would suggest that Mr Modi offer hearty congratulations and support to the tiny minority community who have preserved and grown this music, without whom it would have vanished under the dung heap of the stuff the other 99. 9% listen to.

My percentage is not meant to be a statistic, of course, just a metaphor for the minority among the minority that are active in the classical-music world.

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 09 Nov 2017, 15:34

What is the use of talking about the origins of language? It is yet to be conclusively proven. Is it not a fact that almost all the major Indian languages are based on sanskrit except tamil? and what is the age of modern English ( it got stabilized only around 1650 AD ( not BC ) and yet gave World class literature in abundance ), whereas Panini's grammar was written in 700 BC itself and we too had great literature ( Bhasa Mahakavi wrote Swapna Vaasavadhatthaa in 400 BC! in the days of Magadha empire and Valmiki Ramayanam predates Buddha. .
It is not good to insult the sacred memory of our saint poets like Purandharadasa , Trinity and others. They all led very austere lives. And did not the most orthodox of them all, Dikshithar teach music to the Tanjore Quartet? were they brahmins? Were not all the temple nagaswaram players from non-brahmin communities? Were they not respected much by the most orthodox composers and musicians? Has not Chinna Moula Sahib been conferred Sangitha Kalanidhi award" . but like Dr.Kalam, he has imbibed the finest traditions of Tamilnad and India in general. ( like Bismilla Khan who opted to stay back in India and play for Kasi Viswanatha than migrate to Pakisthan). and was not Allaudddin Khan a devotee of Pramahamsa?
Times have changed a lot. Social discrimination and atrocities did exist for centuries and perhaps exist even today but it is not correct assumption that all the non-brahmin and excluded communities are dying to learn Carnatic music today. . I will even say that a large percentage of even brahmin youngsters dont care much for it. unless it is really lucrative ( say , getting into film music or a professional teacher to kids in USA), I suppose there are quite a few music colleges in tamilnad with all the usual support and encouragement under reservation quota. Any data as to how the youngsters have used such facilities? Without Bakthi movement, we cannot really appreciate CM. That is precisely what is vanishing from youth from ALL the communities. ( except in very superficial form).

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 09 Nov 2017, 15:50

Nick, much of what is celebrated is of minority. The Jews corner most awards in fields that matter sort of, and they are a minority, and even among Jews those that get recognised are a minority, the majority Jews are like most other people (source: The Economist). Classical music has limited audience because it is demanding and requires preparation. That Chennai has become a centre for celebrating classical music like perhaps no other city (I do not know about Vienna's cities) is worth recognition.
I enjoy your humour, but could not resist expressing what came at first blush.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 10 Nov 2017, 10:24

kvchellappa wrote: ↑09 Nov 2017, 15:50Classical music has limited audience because it is demanding and requires preparation.

Yes. Not only to perform but even to just listen/enjoy. Most people lack the attention span. With such a limited audience, it cannot be seen as a money hoarding profession, except for the very select few at the top.

If TMK wants to do something for the neglected arts, he should learn one of them and perform them as much as he can. Rather than besmirching the existing classical arts.

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 10 Nov 2017, 23:17

@34..interview by .... in National Herald... 1) What is wrong in being a cadre-based organization? they have very close ties with rural people. as Congress and Communists once had in pre-independence days. 2) In the aftermath of Chinese aggression, Nehruji allowed the sangh volunteers to participate in Republic day parade. 3) During national disasters, sangh volunteers can be seen working in earnest in relief operations. 4) Nehruji has pinpointed the fact that oppression on daliths is due to their being predominantly landless agricultural labour . Dr.Kalam has suggested that agricultural co-operatives similar to the White Revolution by Vergees be taken up and encouraged allotting land to the landless. Krushnammal Jagannathan has shown the way Majoritarian vote bank politics prevents any such program being implemented as it will turn the non-daliths against the party. Surprising that no one is serious about proportional representation. Bahujan Samaj party should have got about 20 parliament seats . but due to defective electoral system , it has no representation in parliament. The interview is typical pseudo-left stuff.