The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

[ram1999]

What is being said of a great human being Smt. MS Subbulakshmi, does leave a very bad taste.

Hyderabad: M. S. Subbulakshmi’s music was truly mesmerising, but her life story was a tragedy, observed Ramon Magsaysay Award winner and celebrated Carnatic music vocalist T.M. Krishna.

Coming from a Devadasi background in Madurai, Subbulakshmi tried to distance herself from her roots and transform herself into the ideal Brahmin woman so that she could be accepted in society, he said. The transformation could be easily identified if one listens to her songs of the 1960s and ‘70s, and later, after she ran away from her home to start a new life in Chennai.

T. M. Krishna was speaking at Manthan on Culture and Community, at the inauguration of Manaku Teliyani MS, the translation into Telugu by reputed Telugu writer Volga of TJS George’s book on Subbulakshmi.

“One can hear M. S. Subbulakshmi’s old songs on Youtube. The music is free-spirited and electrifying and one feels like one is listening to a rock star. The music rendered by her after undergoing cultural and social transformation is equally fascinating to hear, but one notices the sorrow behind her voice,” he said.

To embrace Brahminism she distanced herself from her brother and family in Madurai and that is the sad part, Mr Krishna said.



He pointed out that art and culture should help us de-baggage ourselves and our identities to create interesting and equal communities. Culture and community are the two most discussed words, but great cultures are the ones that do not create a rift between insiders and outsiders.

Mr Krishna posed a question to the audience: would they have adored and liked Subbulakshmi’s songs if she had been dark-skinned and dressed differently? Upper caste communities owned her because she looked fair and dressed like them.

Telugu writer Volga said that she did not know much about Subbulakshmi or Carnatic music before translating the book. She found it strange that Subbulakshmi’s life was narrated in English by TJS George, and that it explained the role of religion, caste and language and the prejudices of a Brahmin-dominated male chauvinistic world and was not translated into many regional languages. Perhaps the community did not want Subbulakshmi’s true identity and background to be revealed to the next generation, she said.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/entertai ... ishna.html

[Vocalist]

It seems like he behaves in a way to constantly seek attention. Why make such remarks when they are so unnecessary?

[shankarank]

I would add some equally provocative things to this - that may make it bitter:

"transform herself into the ideal Brahmin woman so that she could be accepted in society, he said".

The Brahmins of that era in the urban setting were pretty much Christianized. Hence there will be a natural tendency to convert!

Those who coexisted with devadasis before - and when devadasis were treated as creme-de-la-creme of society - now turned completely Christian!

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-de ... sa-1304526

The German Indologists who conflated Brahminism with catholicism should have waited until this era. The Brahminism absorbed Agamas ( that which came from outside) and made them exalted, without destroying it , in contrast to Catholics who destroyed the pagan civilization that preceded them and made idolatry forbidden. True, Brahmins would also later consider Shudratva beneath them, but that can also be looked at as an attempt to preserve the ritual traditions for whose efficacy, there is no direct evidence. Nevertheless they did not go and destroy all the worshipping forms of the subaltern which are still in existence, including animal sacrifice, suDalai mADan (grAma dEvata) and kALi/mArriaman temples - where there is no Siva linga.

If we are afflcited with smallpox or measles we pray to her the mArriaman and never fail to fulfil the vow even decades after ( deivakkADan nURRANDu - meaning a vow to a deity ( or a debt to a deity) can be fulfilled (redeemed) even after a century) and we don't pray to any of our deities at that time. Those temples are still manned by paNDARas and not sacred threaded brahmins!

grAma dEvata is invoked in the final blessing seeking at the culmination of AvaNi aviTTam!

To embrace Brahminism she distanced herself from her brother and family in Madurai and that is the sad part, Mr Krishna said.

It is a Christian trait to absorb from native cultures and denigrate them afterwards, like the yOga industry whose turn over was more than the Indian software export at one point. And peddle stories in Scroll.in, on how Yoga is a modern creation of Krishnmachariar by incorporating Calisthenics and other things from around the world.

And hence it is not surprising that the Brahmins of urban British times practiced them. They took in all the treasures of the dEvadAsi tradition and bad mouthed them.

It is also the trait of the Christianized, then secularized and then liberalized and then Marxicized film industry to take all the good cultural inputs and take movies, even at the same time ( not even afterwards) denigrating the source to effect social transformation.

So we are fully justified in taking effective thoughts from Marxicism or whatever -ism because it works well for the current times and make it our own , but never fail to denigrate the source!

That is the new Justified Right!

[vijay.siddharth]

Redacted with regret.

[sureshvv]

In this context, someone we know said:

I abhor the beetle because it seeks the dung of others to hatch its eggs.

[RSR]

Smt.MS is like a mother to people like me in the seventy plus age group. It is heart-breaking to read all this drivel by TMK . Around 1946, (I was just 4 years old then) I got enslaved by the magic of her songs in Tamil Meera film. In school days, I had the privilege to listen often to her non-film 78 rpm records. By 1950, her voice was absolutely divine. ( she was 34 then). From Dr.Pasupathy's blog, I come to know that she had given great many gems of songs as records in 1936-1940 years like Intha sowkyamu (kapi) and many more. (Unfortunately I am unable to get them). If we study the discography, we will find that she had given many classical kruthi songs very early. She was 24 when she married Sri.Sadasivam, himself a talented singer with exquisite taste. MS remained incomparable in her voice even upto 1956. ( 40th year). True, After passing away of Kalki, she gave increasingly traditional kruthis of the trinity . and less of Tamil Isai songs. and by that time ( early 1960), 78 rpm records were getting out of circulation. But who can deny the sweetness of kaliyudadali and daasanamadiko as 78 rpm records. ? She was at her zenith in 1966. ( 50 in age).
It is quite natural that voice gets 'thicker' with advanced age. and all of us tend to move away from agnosticism to theism. in later years. due to experiences and maturity. MS was no exception. Another icon of CM, Smt DKP has remarked that she moved away from virtuosity to 'bhaavam' filled song rendering following MS. ( her senior by two years). . Only sick minds will harp on caste factors all the time. If she had stopped giving public concerts at the height of her fame in 1966, it would have been great. ."There were no sound and light shows, no teenage haute guttersnipes, no thumbing his nose at the rules." definition of 'guttersnipe'. ie TMK

[shankarank]

In this context, someone we know said:

I abhor the beetle because it seeks the dung of others to hatch its eggs.

Dung as a pejorative is potentially controversial in this era of :cough: :cough: hyper sensitive socio-political scrutiny. For example there is the accusation that while Cow dung is treated with veneration, the handlers are not!

Also as a manure it is part of the organic food cycle anyways!

[kvchellappa]

It shows the creature TMK is, does not cast any slur on MS.
I see nothing wrong if MS wanted to be a Brahmin. Being a Brahmin is not a blessing nor a curse. Brahmin was in theory a high point in attainment (see RSachi's quote in another thread). That they fell short does not detract from the ideal. The story of how Viswamitra moved heaven and earth literally to become a Brahmin is added in Ramayana. For a long time hotels used to add 'Brahmin hotel', not that the owner or workers were Brahmin. Brahmin stood for quality in common parlance.
The life of MS was not about Brahmin-nonBrahmin. It was about her desire to live her life the way she wanted, and she showed her strength of mind in walking away from the family. (The same TMK will support Hadia for wanting to walk away from her family). She had every right to do what she wanted even as TMK has every right (specially confirmed by Vijay) to express his dirty mind.
Equally, TS had the strength of mind to unfetter himself from the shackles of prudish society and unite with MS in what turned out to be a joint life dedicated to music, bhakthi and philanthropy, the core aspects of their dampatya dharma, that has come for justified fulsome praise. If that sort of life is Brahminical, let everyone aim at it without any qualms.
A swan takes milk leaving water. I do not know a parallel for TMK.

[Sachi_R]

Gents, I am not writing anything here. There is another saying:

Don't stir the dung beetle's eggs. There will be more beetles.

[aaaaabbbbb]

There is a proverb in Kannada.

If the dog barks, heaven is not spoiled.

[sankark]

What is new in this? Isn't this a rehash of his thoughts already covered in his "A Southern Music"?

[shankarank]

Sachi, if what I wrote is ridiculous doesn't what is being said deserve such a response? Am I writing against Brahmins or even Christians? Don't you see the rhetorical truth behind what I wrote?

Is that even a response aimed at the people making this narrative? It is more intended to the readers in this forum on how we might understand our past in a way!

And regarding rest of the posts: Do we really have to go into facts and specifics of the person to defend this? Do those matter? And do we have to reaffirm the rights of so and so to say such and such ? Like so important to be a good citizen of the French republic at this time? Like some Good humanism? Seriously?

Such great people are not born - they appear - would be the right word isn't it? I have not read any of the books or biographies and I don't intend to. The biography of a bodily person is of no relevance in the Indian context.

Ancestors wrote itihAs to explain philosophies and they did use some real life like happenings! The factual truth or falsity of those happenings of complete irrelevance actually. Isn't that what we should construct for our children and as adults we should carry those ideas into our adulthood unadulterated by whatever freaking education we get to work as slaves to something - I mean even a CEO is somewhat a slave!

Do we really value our education that much ? Yes it is good tool that allows us to converse in this forum! Beyond that?

Seriously?

[Sachi_R]

Dear Shankarank,
With my rusty brain rumbling with poor maintenance, racked by the onslaught of too many social commentaries, running away from even trivial intellectual tasks, how can I say something against what you write. Have no such idea. If I have sounded contrary an, it is purely owning to my poor communication.

I love EVERY forumite here, and especially those who lay bare their minds and souls.

[Nick H]

Not that I know anything about it, but hey, since when did being born in the same century or on the same continent as MSS ever stop anyone from commenting on her life! So...

Coming from a Devadasi background in Madurai, Subbulakshmi tried to distance herself from her roots and transform herself into the ideal Brahmin woman so that she could be accepted in society, he said.

Wasn't it Sadasivam who was responsible for the marketing, dressing, packaging and presentation?

[nanosadagopan]

TMK is like Kamal Hasan. Both are great artists. And, that's where it all still stays. Venture into something new, whether it be politics, oration or writing, both of them fall short of basic requisites, which also include the right perspective, among others. The pompous idiots.

[ram1999]

TMK is like Kamal Hasan. Both are great artists. And, that's where it all still stays. Venture into something new, whether it be politics, oration or writing, both of them fall short of basic requisites, which also include the right perspective, among others. The pompous idiots.

TMK is like kamalahassan. Period. An average musician hyped up as a great artist. Nothing spectacular in his music except that his actions are too much and voice gimmickry to create a false effect which people fall for.

[ram1999]

Rahul Gandy opens his mouth - ends up in controversy.

T M Krishna opens his mouth - ends up in controversy.

Something strange !!!

[vichu1947]

There are some similarities between TMK and Ka-mala hassan :

1) Both are good artists
2) Both are pompous , arrogant and think too much of themselves
3) Both are Iyengars
4) Both claim to be atheists and secular, though their definition of secularism is Anti Hindu (like that man EVR)
5) Both preach to the world but have integrity issues - Kamal's integrity in personal life is well known. And TMK's integrity is also questionable (with high value cash dealings)
6) Both die for attention. They try to get attention by making some controversial remarks

[Nick H]

Rahul Gandy ... T M Krishna

The only strange thing is that very slightly more people are interested, even if only in a venomous way, in TMK!

[uday_shankar]

TMK is not "spewing venom". One can agree or disagree with his views but I'm betting he's absolutely not a malicious or malevolent figure !

The only "venom" I see across forums and social media, including in this thread, is "venom" directed against TMK.

"Venom" is definitely in the eye of the beholder.

If facts are stated there is nothing to agree or disagree. If opinions are stated, there can be room for debate.

If unpalatable facts or opinions are stated, there must be a better way to deal with it than calling it "venom" and hyperventilating.

[hema]

I am sure all of you are literate:-) Let us not repeat what our politicians are doing. Judge after reading the book. It is a well-researched book. It is an awesome book. Makes one very sad. Also read V Sriram's book on Bangalore Nagarathnamma. I agree with TMK, Chennai music season has done a lot disservice to the community that preserved the art. Although her husband did help her a lot, she too did a lot by giving a number of benefit concerts to enable them to run their magazine -- it was mutual.

I recently learned that this is not very different in the context of dance either. I do not see anything wrong in what he has stated: we are pretty
racist -- all shades of brown matter. When a child gets married to a Caucasian one is fine, but when a child marries an African-American we are
not fine. It is 'black money' and not 'white money' that is bad! I can keep quoting a number of examples!

Some mridangam vidwans refuse to play for women, but do not refuse to play for white American women. I saw this happen at a Tyagaraja Utsavam while I was a graduate student in Canada.

We do not seem to have our "antennae" pointing in the right direction if we do not see such signals. Mind you -- working at IIT Madras, I have enough evidence to show that "gender bias", "caste bias" continues to exist on the campus too!.

[nanosadagopan]

TMK is like kamalahassan. Period. An average musician hyped up as a great artist. Nothing spectacular in his music except that his actions are too much and voice gimmickry to create a false effect which people fall for.

Add to that, Kamal the Hollywood copycat cons himself and others that he is creative.

[sureshvv]

I agree with TMK, Chennai music season has done a lot disservice to the community that preserved the art.

And which community is this? Why are you unable to view it as the music community?

Although her husband did help her a lot, she too did a lot by giving a number of benefit concerts to enable them to run their magazine -- it was mutual.

And that is how marriages work. Why would a 3rd person insinuate himself/herself into this and make unwarranted conclusions when the principals are long dead and can't even defend themselves?
Who are the people that call this "research" and applaud the gossip mongers?

We do not seem to have our "antennae" pointing in the right direction if we do not see such signals.

Let us point our "antennae" away from dead people's personal lives please. There is plenty of signal around that we can do something about,

[vichu1947]

I am sure all of you are literate:-)

Yes madam, we think so.

....... Makes one very sad.

A book that makes one sad need not automatically become an authentic book. There are sad fictions also.

It is 'black money' and not 'white money' that is bad! I can keep quoting a number of examples!

Here "blackness" is not a racial attribute. Here blackness means, money that has not seen the light. Not seen the light because it is illegal. Adding a racial flavor to it is wild imagination not compatible with we "literates" .

Mind you -- working at IIT Madras, I have enough evidence to show that "gender bias", "caste bias" continues to exist on the campus too!.

Yes madam, in IIT there are people who won't attend a concert if the performer wears a nAmam. Such bias also exist.

[shankarank]

I am sure all of you are literate:-)

I am literate in Hindi - I mean I can read and write Hindi - doesn't mean I understand the language any deeper. This is separate from knowing devanagari in Sanskrit. I did have training in Hindi. Literacy does not mean anything! There is plenty of evidence that education has been over hyped! That's why I read Chomsky the extreme, than all other shades of red or green! All other literature , fiction or non-fiction that peddles politically correct crap is only a mainstream friendly rehash so it can be published and get read somewhat!

All that has created is many poor musicians across U.S at the lower level, so even some low-techie jobs need filled with attitude friendly H1B(s). The cost reason is only a catalyst. Now many of the U.S kids at that level of job demography don't pass drug tests.

That is the real achievement of American education and liberalism! So before we peddle this crap into India, lets first ask what they have achieved!

I agree with TMK, Chennai music season has done a lot disservice to the community that preserved the art. Although her husband did help her a lot, she too did a lot by giving a number of benefit concerts to enable them to run their magazine -- it was mutual.

The term "Chennai music season" is a concoction as though it is some grand conspiracy. Truth is it is a collective social behavior and reactions of people of the times. We can lament a lot about people not knowing the true and real music! People also did not know the worth of tODi and varALI places outside "Chennai music season" of 80s and 90s. Irrespective of the background of musicians who rendered them. And these are people who actually came and sat through concerts! This observation of marginalization of the community that preserved the art has been made since the days of TTK - if you peruse the music academy journals. But the first act is by the Officialdom under the aegis and influence of the British starting from Orissa temple. Have you not learnt in your journey to literacy that people absorb the paradigms of the powerful?! That continues after the Independence also! And picks up steam during 80s in popular media.

To twist this to say it is a conspiracy by the Brahmin caste is ridiculous. The Brahmin caste was losing knowledge of what its heritage and surrounding heritage meant and actually became a Caste of some privileges because the privileges just existed as a matter of course - only as a matter of sheer existence for survival!

I recently learned that this is not very different in the context of dance either.

Oh! if you only recently learned it, imagine how much of that awareness was part of society! They were losing this habitually only by sheer existence. There is no planned conspiracy. Just like the arrivals of Europeans into Indian shores was not anything planned - just happened by Drift and human endeavor. May be once they established they may have indulged in conspiracies ( giving some benefit of doubt actually!). The Brahmins were only busy enjoying the last vestiges of Bureacratic power they had in government and make whatever out of it. So arts were the last thing to worry about!

As recently as 2001/2002 Hariharan would throw a sympathetic comment about Carnatic music in his TV interview - oh there is this Carnatic music - that is also happening by the way every year - in a corner and there are still people listening to it by the way!.

What TMK is doing is using the new media/marketing tools something as a result of a very recent economic progress! He has no reasons to complain about anything that happened prior to late 90s! Absolutely no reason!

I do not see anything wrong in what he has stated: we are pretty racist -- all shades of brown matter. When a child gets married to a Caucasian one is fine, but when a child marries an African-American we are not fine. It is 'black money' and not 'white money' that is bad! I can keep quoting a number of examples!

How about Black Friday and Red ink? Or Black holes? More examples? How many distinct races are there in India? What does the latest genome studies indicate - want to know? You can yourself literate? Will Rahul Gandhi ask his Sister to marry her daughters to a Dalit male from the hut that he visits in UP? No I wouldn't accept a privileged Dalit in place! That is not annihilating caste , it is annihilating heritage! You get it? Soon there will be such marriages in the West once Blacks move up the ladder! So don't worry!

Some mridangam vidwans refuse to play for women, but do not refuse to play for white American women. I saw this happen at a Tyagaraja Utsavam while I was a graduate student in Canada.

So there really isn't a Women bias in the artiste inherently? Only race matters? That is the sorry state of living sustenance that we have pushed them into. But before you jump to the conclusion of Women artiste and Mridangam - do you know the spelling of layam? Most Women artistes after the era or MSS/DKP cannot stand a real robust senior Mridangam - really. Mridangam becomes an accompaniment in their concerts - and that is when you can use that term. There are very few that are not in the limelight as musicians themselves! So this is not a real accusation. The Mridangists may quote N number reasons for reasons of politeness - like the sound being metallic , skin being too hard , personal reasons , husbands domination whatever! The real reason is that one. Their own feminine music will be demolished! So really no point of Senior Mridangist accompanying - he will not add anything that a Junior is not adding already!

We do not seem to have our "antennae" pointing in the right direction if we do not see such signals. Mind you -- working at IIT Madras, I have enough evidence to show that "gender bias", "caste bias" continues to exist on the campus too!.

Gender bias exists throughout the world and Gender oppression is making institutions tumble from top of the world like Dasharata's kingdom in crisis due to Mantara's tricks - if you watched the news lately! What is new? Why do we need antennae's for that when the radio circuit board conductor will pick that up. Signal is so strong and pervasive! And what does that have to do with "Chennai music season"? As regards Caste bias what do you expect of a society that is in a country where the law has new privileges bestowed based on Caste? It will perpetuate Caste feelings further.

[sureshvv]

TMK is not "spewing venom".

May be it just appears to be so because it is directed towards people who are now dead and have no means to defend themselves.

[shankarank]

Wasn't it Sadasivam who was responsible for the marketing, dressing, packaging and presentation?

Nick, this was about 2011. The boy may be 6 years old now! We all met in his new born baby celebration. Musician family of a reputed Guru violinist! Her daughter was in attendance as an Aunt or so. Her Husband showed his humility - that he is not so trained in Music , but he was supportive of his wife etc. And there were others like him in the room. I remarked there are many Sadasivams around!

The Wife / Daughter of reputed Guru, stopped me there! No that is something different she insisted! She would go on about Sadasivam's greatness for the next 10/15 minutes. Few things now. She recalled how Sadasivam would care for MS in their Canada trip - "Kunjamma please wear that shawl properly" - so she doesn't get cold etc. She added that MS was aware of the excessive affection and care being showered , but she let him do it - in graceful acceptance!

I would call that not even Motherly love, but Grand Motherly love in an extended family or when a child visits!

I think Sadasivam would be too damn happy, if after all his reputation or standing is sacrificed, tarnished, and as a result a lot of people get to listen to this music because of that. That way if TMK succeeds I am happy as well!!

[ram1999]

eir —

[ram1999]

TMK is not "spewing venom". One can agree or disagree with his views but I'm betting he's absolutely not a malicious or malevolent figure !

The only "venom" I see across forums and social media, including in this thread, is "venom" directed against TMK.

"Venom" is definitely in the eye of the beholder.

If facts are stated there is nothing to agree or disagree. If opinions are stated, there can be room for debate.

If unpalatable facts or opinions are stated, there must be a better way to deal with it than calling it "venom" and hyperventilating.

Utter rubbish - the bhramin community is suffering today because of characters as these who are causing the divide and hatred and blind followers like you guys who support their actions in the name of being diplomatic and broad thinking intellectuals !!!!

[Nick H]

Just a quibble on the side...

White sugar, white bread, white rice, white magic (and even light as opposed to dark)... White skin.

All fair and lovely things, right?

The implications have been recognised for decades or longer. The Americans here, at least, should be aware that this is no figment of imagination.

[kvchellappa]

I do not know how many realise that Krishna was a black beauty (sorry if wrong for a man) and all fair ladies fell for him. Draupadi was called Krishna because she was dark and all princes vied for her hand and finally she became the wife for five. Maybe story, but dear to Indian hearts.
One can talk rubbish to win awards. What irrelevant nonsense!
It is not that one cannot criticise, but that it has to be fair and related to the life of one he is talking about. He talks as though MS confided her heart to him. Even Gowri Ramnarayan may have to consult him before she writes anything on MS.
What truth is here?
Why bring gender and caste bias here? Is it gender bias that MS won so much recognition? Is it caste bias that she was accepted despite her birth? What is being talked about? Do you get rid of such bias by such insensitive and insensible talk? Do you redress a grievance that has no basis here by hurting the sentiments of thousands of people who know the life of MS and admire her for the way she led it?

[thanjavooran]

Enough. It is high time that mod intervene and take a decision.
Thanjavooran
30 11 2017

[Sachi_R]

Albert Einstein on T. M. Krishna:

"Generations to come, it may well be, will scarce believe that such a man as this one ever in flesh and blood talked upon this Earth."

[hema]

I only repeat this -- PLEASE READ the BOOK. The book was written before MS passed away. It is an excellent book -- very carefully researched
and written. I have read parts of it a NUMBER fo TIMES. I agree that TMK's opinion about her music being more free-spirited before -- is primarily his.
Before or after her MUSIC is DIVINE -- my opinion.

Unlike the other people who glorify her life, this book is objective.

And whatever decision she took -- it was HER CHOICE.

How many Ezhilarasis, Kayalvizhis, Kalis have you seen in the music/dance circuit? These names are NOT fictitious. These are REAL PEOPLE who sing/dance Carnatic music/Bharatanatyam.

Even the nonbrahmins in the music circuit (the small 5%?) that trickle through will be UPPER CASTE.

On a different note, if we want CM to be ALIVE (like languages) -- it has to be reachable by everybody -- only then will the music grow.

[kvchellappa]

The music will remain diminutive in the foreseeable future because of its very nature. All the song and dance about caste and equality will make no impact. It will get some awards for the orchestrator. That is all. i have better things to do than read a book that creates a history. I have disdain for history. It is just an opinion based on the prejudice of the person creating it. Let us stick to what is in the public domain outside the book.

[kvchellappa]

We must set right ourselves. Any effort to set right the world will not succeed. We operate from our level of mind and understanding. There is nothing sacrosanct about it.
Almost everything we pride ourselves with, belief or atheism, values or manners, name anything, is a creation of man. There is no sanction in nature for it. Nature has shown no partiality for man or his ideas. The world will roll on with its plan brushing aside our grandiose plans.
Atheism is valid to the same extent theism is valid. There is nothing to decry in either.
The effort for a social order is worth it but may not click with a hatred campaign. Blasting an existing system may sound logical, but will not result in change. To pretend that one man has all the right ideas and all others are fakes is certainly a wrong starting point.
Anyone has a right to criticize anyone else, contemporary or dead, but one cannot read his mind into another’s life. It is mischievous to interpret another’s mind except to the extent it has been made known. We cannot read another’s life from our values.
It is sensational to make a new point, truth may not be necessary, particularly if it is scurrilous. To succumb to it is cheap. It achieves nothing except some hue and cry and more hatred and division. People move on to the next sensation. It is timepass. To give awards for sensationalism is another crude intvention of man. Let someone answer what integration has been achieved or what upliftment of the downtrodden has taken place pursuant the antics of one man. If words are the substitute for results, why give just to one man? So many have achieved it.
The only strong point was music, but he is distorting it, giving a wanton new interpreatation to the very idea of Carnatic music, and the convention of performance which is audience-centric by definition.
Where is integrity? He is the product and beneficiary of what he denounces today – Brahmin and business background that made him what he is today. In both there was undue influence. Has he moved away from it cutting off and disowning that background and its bounty? How can he undo what is gone into what he is today? How is he different from a politician who indulges in opportunism for coming to power?
It is pointless to say there is no malice or malevolence, when deliberately one hurts others’ feelings. Yes, one can preach to me that the trouble is with my feelings. If someone is hurt by what I write, he can take that precept.

[sureshvv]

I only repeat this -- PLEASE READ the BOOK.

Nope. The bits and pieces that he is regurgitating here and there are offensive enough.

How many Ezhilarasis, Kayalvizhis, Kalis have you seen in the music/dance circuit? These names are NOT fictitious. These are REAL PEOPLE who sing/dance Carnatic music/Bharatanatyam.

Are they performing in a public setting anywhere? Any youtube links?

Even the nonbrahmins in the music circuit (the small 5%?) that trickle through will be UPPER CASTE.

Should we sponsor some studies to provide a caste breakdown? May be we can also check if they are from the CREAMY LAYER.

On a different note, if we want CM to be ALIVE (like languages) -- it has to be reachable by everybody -- only then will the music grow.

Agree. And it is growing very well.

[kvchellappa]

Sriram V‏
(Twitter)
Imagine how much more popular Lata Mangeshkar and Asha Bhonsle would have been had they dressed like Mamis and been white complexioned.

[Sachi_R]

Suresh,
Your excellent post gives me an idea.

Please convey this also to Shri TMK.

The Carnatic music scene is like a Pizza Margherita.

The base is the Brahmcriminal (new word to be added to OED 2020 EDITION) baddies, I.E.us folks. We are kneaded in our Brahmcriminal traditions, we are cross belted and baked in the oven to a brown of utter cruelty to Dalits.

Then there is Cheese. These are the Brahmcriminal musicians perpetuating the evil daily with their Brahmcriminal Thyagaraja and stuff.
On top is some spicy smear called Sabha Brahmcriminals. They fleece sponsors, to pay top dollar to artistes.
On super top is the salaami sorry pineapple like TMK and other baddies enjoying the rewards of this huge evil.

[ram1999]

I only repeat this -- PLEASE READ the BOOK. The book was written before MS passed away. It is an excellent book -- very carefully researched
and written. I have read parts of it a NUMBER fo TIMES. I agree that TMK's opinion about her music being more free-spirited before -- is primarily his.
Before or after her MUSIC is DIVINE -- my opinion.

Unlike the other people who glorify her life, this book is objective.

And whatever decision she took -- it was HER CHOICE.

How many Ezhilarasis, Kayalvizhis, Kalis have you seen in the music/dance circuit? These names are NOT fictitious. These are REAL PEOPLE who sing/dance Carnatic music/Bharatanatyam.

Even the nonbrahmins in the music circuit (the small 5%?) that trickle through will be UPPER CASTE.

On a different note, if we want CM to be ALIVE (like languages) -- it has to be reachable by everybody -- only then will the music grow.

What is stated in the books need not be factual and could be hear say / assumptions etc. it is not a bible to judge or pass judgements / opinions.

Clearly your approach does give an indication that you are an agent of krishna who has been hired to do damage control.

[ram1999]

Enough. It is high time that mod intervene and take a decision.
Thanjavooran
30 11 2017

Why may I ask. Debates need not necessarily be done in a diplomatic manner always. The stupidity of a musician who has a good standing in the market should be condemned / reprimanded and he put in his place.

It is the easiest to ask the moderators to lock the thread !

Common give it a break !!!!

[sureshvv]

The Carnatic music scene is like a Pizza Margherita.

This needs a captioned illustration!!

RSachi,,, Help

[ram1999]

On a different note, if we want CM to be ALIVE (like languages) -- it has to be reachable by everybody -- only then will the music grow.

You must be seriously off your wits

There are different forms of music for different sections of he society. It is foolish and futile to make Cm reach to everybody. You take weatern classical music, that has a target audience.

In the garb of spreading CM and trying reduce the divide, krishna is trying to gain popularity. Let him concentrate on music and music alone to be popular than use these cheap stunts !!!

[shankarank]

I only repeat this -- PLEASE READ the BOOK.

A gist of the book's main points including the initial family happenings was published in Scroll.in.

The book was written before MS passed away. It is an excellent book -- very carefully researched

In human studies, there is something called perspective (dRSTi). We know what that is here. Facts are only inputs! And Facts convenient will be amplified.

agree that TMK's opinion about her music being more free-spirited before -- is primarily his.

Yes initially she would have appealed to a lot of cognoscenti. But she has to be broaden her appeal don't you think? Today that theme is not so popular ( given the way we measure popularity in today's context) , with more people being literate and want to discover arts ( so for your benefit I will give some credit to literacy!), but their minds are also being parallelly subverted with a certain perspective injected in there, which we can do without! Well if that is the only way they lend their ears to this music - so be it - what can we do? The standing and reputation of Brahmins is a small matter in front of this objective.

Unlike the other people who glorify her life, this book is objective.

Unlike the perspectives being peddled , glorification in fact is a more positive narrative to make people listen to music. But then the literate population has been subverted! So no other way out other than peddle atrocity literature on previous generations. To the point they claim now ( this is within my Brahmin caste family in fact) that Women then were baby machines! I would wait to see the baby machines (the womb harvesters) to takeover Europe and destroy the museums there and the millennials of the liberal society not even marry! In fact that may be one possible way to spread something! Being executed with Game theoretic perfection!

And whatever decision she took -- it was HER CHOICE.

And you wouldn't even consider the inevitable bitterness it creates ( and this is within family - does not raise upto bias in society) as HER life moved on to different pursuits that she may not have been able to keep in touch!

How many Ezhilarasis, Kayalvizhis, Kalis have you seen in the music/dance circuit? These names are NOT fictitious. These are REAL PEOPLE who sing/dance Carnatic music/Bharatanatyam.

What about the audience? We will wait for diverse audience created with a subverted mind and see how long they come to support with full commitment first! More likely the art is going to get digested into other dominant alien paradigms beyond recognition. Well as if that has not happened already in film music!

On a different note, if we want CM to be ALIVE (like languages) -- it has to be reachable by everybody -- only then will the music grow.

Just come and stay and listen. And listen committed! That is more important than any attempts to do out-reach! Every Apartment complex in Chennai that has a garden space in between , can erect a stage , hire Audio and get a musician to sing! Music is being blasted across TV for many years now. Have we seen that happen?

[sureshvv]

You should have been at the Bharathiya Vidya Bhavan for Abhishek Raghuram last week. There were lots and lots of people, young and old, rich and poor and from many different backgrounds. There were so many youngsters sitting on stage, many of them pre-teens, putting talam perfectly. There were many people standing in the back, waiting for an empty seat, No one was forcing them to be there.

[Sachi_R]

Ok Suresh, for such a noble cause, anything!

[kvchellappa]

Why don't we see MS for what she was?
She never positioned herself as a propagator of CM. She had devotion in her, it was not imposed. She took to devotional music soulfully. A number of people draw solace listening to her devotional rendering. To her as to many old-timers, music is a way to god. Just because one person has turned his back on bhakthi and says ad nauseum that bhakthi is not part of CM, why should that perspective become the yardstick to assess MS? There is nothing true or untrue in all this. It is simply irrelevant and diversionary.
The argument that someone is objective is one of the worn-out ones. Just to believe that if you state some negative points you are objective is too naive. Objectively there is nothing. Each one of us is a package, not entirely made of volition. We carry a load of beliefs and try to fit everything into it. The objection is when it is made to appear path-breaking and spelt out with rancour and air of dismissal of alternative views.
MS was very much human and had her own whatever. That she rose above all and was dignity personified makes her one of the greats. Thanks to technology, we have a huge collection of her music and devotional hymns that is all that matter now.

[kvchellappa]

Sri RSachi,
I wish you had ordered something 'Karnatic'!

[sureshvv]

Ok Suresh, for such a noble cause, anything!

We need the layers labelled. Will be good if the image of the layers reflect the content as described by you.

[Nick H]

Meat on rasikas.org! Is this a first?