The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

[shankarank]

Don't become porkis please!

[Sachi_R]

Ok Suresh, for such a noble cause, anything!

In deference to bigoted brahmcriminal sentiment,
In accordance with my own taste,
In pursuit of truth, above all else,
In conformity with the true creamy layer concept of the top stars in CM,
I give you the pizza without the porkis!


Amen.

[Ramasubramanian M.K]

As a self-anointed chronicler of the GREAT LADY I confess to being. incorrigibly biased.Unfortunately I doubt if TMK ever got to know her personally.

I just visualized to myself what MS Amma would have said had she been made aware of TMK's comments.

' IPPIDIELLAM ENNAIPATRI PESARALE(with the nostrils quivering) .After saying this she would end up saying 'ANA AVAL ELLAM NANRAI IRUKKANAM"(translation) Why do people talk about me in this manner, but I wish. all of them nothing but good !!

Last year when MS AMMA's Centenary celebrations were held in the Kmaraj ArangamI just about that time TMK's Ramon Magsaysay award had been announced. I commented to a leading vocalist sitting next to me saying"If Sadasivam Mama had been alive today he would have relinquished the award that MS AMMA received years ago!! The vocalist (incidentally a good friend of TMK) laughed in agreement, because he knew TS as well!!!

[kvchellappa]

Sir, This is the most telling rejoinder to the malicious words of TMK.

[ramamatya]

I'm yet to see a dark-skinned lady become a darling of the Carnatic masses - make it as a top performer.

[sureshvv]

Chitravina Ravikiran has authored an article entitled "Carnatic Music and Communal Harmony" that debunks many of these scurrilous half-truths. Think it is on today's Deccan Chronicle. I am glad that these malicious allegations are not going unchallenged.

[vichu1947]

Chitravina Ravikiran has authored an article entitled "Carnatic Music and Communal Harmony" that debunks many of these scurrilous half-truths. Think it is on today's Deccan Chronicle. I am glad that these malicious allegations are not going unchallenged.

I have posted it as a separate topic
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=30218

[Rengarajan]

People talk much about Privacy and make a lot of noise on the subject. People may give out their view on artists public performance despite popular opinions. That does not give the licence to somebody to write about somebody's personal life . What has been written was intrusion on somebody's privacy. The Press which takes up cudgels about everything what Government in the name of privacy, is guilty of encouraging such writing about a person's personal life. It is a tragedy that such Press is also encouraged by readers probably because of gossip mongering instincts they suffer from.

[kvjayan]

I'm yet to see a dark-skinned lady become a darling of the Carnatic masses - make it as a top performer.

Since the vidwan has considered it wise to debate extraneous issues, we have seen a fair-skinned European person on stage (playing tambura), but rarely dark-skinned sishyas, in his performances. He has publicly projected his racial preferences. Yet, he delivers sermons to the unwashed 'Carnatic masses'.

[ram1999]

Tmk is a smart cookie. Without performing in a single concert he has gained publicity by talking rubbish. The efforts for this far too less compared to singing in a concert platform

[chalanata]

My take on this is:
1. George is a novice as far as music is considered but he has really probed into the different stages of MSS' life.
2. Our problem is romantizizing whether it is Mahathma Gandhi or Shivaji Ganesan. This sort of idol worship really kills the objectivity of analysis. Once the person becomes an icon then it is high pedestal and worship only. This is a quality which Indian minds have inherited from the nomadic tribe levels where youth chop their heads off as sacrifice for the respective chieftons or kings.
3. MSS had the compulsion to shed the shackles of of her birth and she beatifully managed to rise to the level of icon by her melodious music surpassing continents. Thanks to Rajaji Sadasivam Kalki combine who chisled her talent, groomed and promoted it. Her sainthood to brahminism jelled into the mainstream smaartha cult of Mylapore thanks not only to her devotion and benovalence but also to the blessings of the Paramacharya. Though I say she jelled she would only have known how she managed despite all odds.
4. In the circumstances if MSS had skeletons in the cupboard so be it. So many other icons have it and the world worships them notwithstanding all this because it is ready to overlook taking into account the extrodinary talent and exemplary behaviour. The world is well aware of all these facts.
5. This has happened in MGR's life. His father was found guilty in 'smartha vicharam' of Dadri Kutti and MGR had a questionable marriage with VNG. But people were ready to overlook this because of his benovalent nature.
6. To the extent why somebody's private life should be dragged in like this I agree. But when the same is narrated to explain the obstacles and despite the same how a person managed to rise above it should be considered a motivating factor.
7. Finally we love and rever MSS not because we do not know her darker past but because we have the maturity and fairness to overlook the same as true music rasikas and devotees.
To this extent George's book or TMK's utterances are relevant.

[kvchellappa]

There is no darker past. It is not a question of adulation, but appreciating a person's circumstance, and not passing value judgment. Motivation need not be by misrepresentation. There is no compulsion for anyone to praise MS. There is no bar for anyone to point out her downsides. But, caste, devadasi, etc. is downright third rate. To allege that she ran away from home and criticise her for that is neither objective nor understanding her compulsions. To refer to her complexion and attribute her success to it is knavish. That is not what an informed person professing to work for truth and justice should do. That makes all his awards undeserved.

[M SIDDHARTHA BHATT]

T M Krishna - I like his music and I like his outspoken view. Even though his intentions were to show how ethnicity plays a role in a career, in this case he seems to be out of shruti. M S Subbulakshmi did nothing of that sort to win acceptability. She moved as per the circumstances in her life. There was no pre conceived design to gain acceptability or hide ethnicity. Hence, reading in between the lines and insertion of swaras kalpanas in someone's life especially when one is gone and there is no one to defend does not produce good music. But probably the intentions were to bring out a point and not to embarrass the greatest ever modern musician's personal life.

[arasi]

Really? I only saw the pineapple and thought, interesting, is it a new thing now? Should try it on a pizza sometime...

[vijay.siddharth]

Really? I only saw the pineapple and thought, interesting, is it a new thing now? Should try it on a pizza sometime...
thumbai v

Arasi, even recently, the PM of Iceland thought Pineapple pizzas ought to be banned!

[Nick H]

Pineapple has been on pizza as long as humans have been imperfect.

[arasi]

Siddharth, Nick,
See how 'with it' I am! Can't pineapple be a garnish for a plant-based pizza?

Discussing TMK on the forum merely means that we get more serious about his pronouncements than he does, perhaps Both are tumbai viTTu vAlaip piDikkiRa kadai--both are attempts to catch the animal by its tail rather than by its tether...

[shankarank]

Pizza, the subaltern food of Italy! And the food of poor H1bs! How can it have layers?

And would "wag the dog" fit this as well?

[shankarank]

This observation of marginalization of the community that preserved the art has been made since the days of TTK - if you peruse the music academy journals. But the first act is by the Officialdom under the aegis and influence of the British starting from Orissa temple. Have you not learnt in your journey to literacy that people absorb the paradigms of the powerful?! That continues after the Independence also! And picks up steam during 80s in popular media.

I recently learned that this is not very different in the context of dance either.

Here something to substantiate: http://www.cnn.com/travel/article/odish ... index.html

even as many of their exploits go beyond what polite society may define as appropriate

So a liberal mainstream media outlet is still trying to sensitize the likely liberal traveller from the West about these things. Imagine what it would have been in Victorian India, with all the patron kings indigent and becoming pensioners, and then their descendants partying in England - while the hapless population of India tries to adjust it's behavior to the machinations of the power that controls the purse!

So even the post colonial, post civil war, post civil rights, post hippie America is not out of the woods yet!!

And you use the word "in the context of dance" as though it is an isolated context. The metaphysics , the practice , the themes are some of the bed rocks of Indian civilization and reflects all layers of its thought processes, not just in the enactment of the art in a court setting or in a temple , but also the lifestyles as well!!!

[ram1999]

Both are tumbai viTTu vAlaip piDikkiRa kadai--both are attempts to catch the animal by its tail rather than by its tether...

quite true !!

[sureshvv]

Discussing TMK on the forum merely means that we get more serious about his pronouncements than he does, perhaps Both are tumbai viTTu vAlaip piDikkiRa kadai--both are attempts to catch the animal by its tail rather than by its tether...

So how do you propose to hold the tether? Or are you suggesting that we just throw up our hands & give up?

[shankarank]

Well in a sense that will apply to taking TMK as a personality more seriously than his words - for his words are not HIS words!

[shankarank]

...

Continuing from that post...

Then this continues in the Dravidian movement dialogues they spawned... The subject matter is Periyar statue that is opposite Srirangam temple tower. The attack goes like this... : If one looks at the statues on the temple tower, punitar (holy) Periyar's statue is not all that bad...

And there is now an attack from the other direction : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifnrGJReKsc - first few minutes.. On Bhakti songs.

We are damned if we do, and damned if we don't!

You see how atrocity literature proceeds ...

So our friend Anil is so worried about misogyny : https://www.facebook.com/anil.srinivasa ... 0660636036

I'd say we did not give the British long enough to clean us up.. Can we call these people Britainers or whiteners?! Nitwits!

[shankarank]

catch the animal by its tail rather than by its tether...

The tether is the figurative NeckTie! Whether it is a corporate business dress code, or just a Western dress code - I assigned it a certain mode of thinking alien to this land. Which may include an assumption that people how they associate themselves, and position themselves creates negative sensitivities to people who are different from them!

That is the evolution of the post modern liberal. Add to that the "inequality" clause. We know we are not equal in many ways! But how do we equalize?

Will this ever work in a society of differences like ours. People sort themselves out!

Inequalities may exist - but cannot be based on past inequalities! Especially caste - based on birth! Notwithstanding the fact that it is the womb that is the transmitter of civilizational traits/tenets!

If some people believe that they are master of methods and have no such baggage in them, they should try and transmit the methods - industrialize it! Why blame the society stuck in some in old mores? Is it because they hold some prime real estate? Is that it?

[arasi]

Sureshv v,
Since you asked (in post #71) about the tether, here's quoting ANDAL(who better?): kanRu kuNilAyeRindAi, kazhal pOTRi!
You, who whirled away the demon calf as if with a catapult! Krishna, we worship at your feet! She meant the other Krishna, of course

[prabuddha]

kuNil means short stick called kuRuntaDi in Tamil

[sureshvv]

I think Chithraveena Ravikiran has done a good job of catapulting the demon calf

[prabuddha]

One problem with a classical art like carnatic music is that an artiste can not offer social criticism through his art. At least it is not customary to do so. This is in contrast to say pop music. Take a group like Sex Pistols - they offered social criticism through pretty jarring and jangling lyrics. It created a big controversy but distinguished musicians such as Pete Townshend of The Who have defended Sex Pistols.

Of course it may be best if TMK were to offer social criticism thru music itself, say by composing a kriti called, " mahanubavarae, en indha paraamugam' in Sri ragam. But we may not dictate the form in which the artist expresses himself. To the extent, an artist may use his art to express himself politically, TMK has done so, with his Olcott kuppam endeavors, singing in buses (with rather light skinned Mylaporeans!) and so forth. For the rest he can only make speeches (in distant Hyderabad) and write articles in The Hindu. The really vitriolic articles he seems to reserve for the Outlook magazine of Delhi.

But the present article has been given a response in the form of Ravikiran's article and perhaps others. So we do have the beginning of a debate here even if TMK's responders seem to lack nuance. A carnatic musical response can always been given. But the response to the social content of TMK's criticism has no nuance. What really are the Mylaporeans doing to make the music more inclusive? Exactly nothing. Of late, the NRI crowd seems to warm the cockles of the Mylaporean heart because who doesn't like a crowd? IF you were worried about the young Mylaporeans running away to join Ilayaraja, here are the NRI rent a crowd making up for the lost numbers. They are somehow successful in bringing their young ones too.

Kanimozhi and TMK aside, the unfair attack on MS aside, there's been some truth to the social criticism in TMK's somewhat unsubtle and perhaps uninspired (inspired by N Ram and his cohorts from Delhi?) diatribes. Haven't the late T Viswa of Wesleyan university and his Ph D students been making the same point for a couple decades now (pace Malavika Avinash) i.e., that the Brahmins have hijacked the music from the Devadasis? Just to make this point obvious, here's the question - how many non Brahmin faces do you see on the stage or among the audience during a typical Carnatic concert?


Humbly yours,

[arasi]

kuNil is also a stick--kuRuntaDi, but in this context, the other meaning--kavaN--catapult is appropriate. Imagine kANNan whirling the demon and tossing him!

[sureshvv]

Just to make this point obvious, here's the question - how many non Brahmin faces do you see on the stage or among the audience during a typical Carnatic concert?

Why are you so obsessed with caste within a subgroup that has largely moved away from these artificial divisions?

[prabuddha]

I'm not obsessed. This is the persistent refrain in TMK's questioning. Which subgroup has moved from which divisions? Which planet are you living in?

[arasi]

I agree with some of what you say. The rest to me is like saying that duryOdhanA was a great friend. He was, to karNA.
Your reference to our lot as just the NRI crowd is a bit disconcerting.The way CM has taken root outside of India in recent years is phenomenal. No mean feat, Cleveland, other cities, and our young torch bearers! The way we patronize artistes from India...

[sureshvv]

I'm not obsessed. This is the persistent refrain in TMK's questioning. Which subgroup has moved from which divisions? Which planet are you living in?

Seems to me that you are. Why are you even asking this question (the carnatic (musician/rasika)'s caste)? We really need to move past this. I hope I am living in the same planet you and TMK are.

[ramamatya]

The way we patronize artistes from India...

with lemon rice and curd rice,
with free to $100 per concert,
lonely house sittings...and more

[sankark]

i.e., that the Brahmins have hijacked the music from the Devadasis? Just to make this point obvious, here's the question - how many non Brahmin faces do you see on the stage or among the audience during a typical Carnatic concert?

Humbly yours,

The question is - positing that it was hijacked in the first place, not sure if it was indeed - what is being done to take it back? So it boils down to are they rekindled/interested to re-appropriate it. And even more, do they even have a sense of losing it in the first place? If they are, are there sufficient # of folks to reinstruct them to rekindle a renaissance.

So what is stopping others from buying a ticket (or for that matter drop in for any # of free concerts, TNSK y'day for example) and start enjoying it? Or for that matter tune in to 720 AM or 102.3 FM Gold in Chennai once in a while? Or go to YT and start listening? If language is deemed a barrier, that's applicable to many TN Brahmins too. I hazard a guess that 90% of TN audience can't make sense of the lyrics of core trinity compositions.

[shankarank]

We should blame the bramhins for only one thing. For taking up music in listening and performing. I would exclude tyAgaraja and their first disciples - they would not have thought this had market in colonial Chennai - where the former went into various vocations!

Well all of the above have to be taken as rhetorical statements - don't pounce on me!

But right there is the solution. All other people should just listen to music , throng the brahmin dominated sabhas. There are plenty of concerts where the hall is empty!. That would eventually lead to their persons becoming office bearers there. And artistes of their preference would get a chance! Send their kids to learn music - I don't think this will be an issue - if only they show that commitment. Then set to music whatever songs they want to sing - as long as there are committed listeners - that will NOT be an issue! Problem solved!!

And those who believe in "Lets build it - they will come" go build it. Don't say this and that about the past and bicker about religion and caste!

it may be best if TMK were to offer social criticism thru music itself, say by composing a kriti called, " mahanubavarae, en indha paraamugam' in Sri ragam

He has hitched on a favorite subject of the new literates - all these unsold social theories from America dumped into India, the Cauldron of fault lines. The Women as a child bearer, the Women as an object etc. That is the fixation on Mathorubagan - you didn't listen? You didn't read?. Those are the juicy topics of atrocity literature that will attract the new gen who have been dumped with all these social theories and frameworks in IAS preparation material. And I said "dumped" with full technicalities associated with it as it is used in economics and trade. The dumping of unsold and obsolete goods and technology. And there are trained journalists from Western universities to amplify this! We have not levied anti-dumping duties on them!

As regards T. Visva , No he could not quite open such topics in his Lec Dem in the U.S.

And people like TRS even when they started to talk about the tradition and compositions had such a trouble talking in any positive (forget boldly) terms about it, he was embarrassed even when he was uttering something!

That was a sparsely attended Lecdem that I helped organize. Obviously he was facing a clueless set of parents who were clueless about the "art" part of the music to begin with , but sending their children to learn this music. Yeah they would have such a trouble discovering SRngAra even through their own Children.

Can you imagine the level of clueless-ness a civilization has been pushed to, about it's own past?! Would you sob or laugh???

[arasi]

Ramamatya,
If that's what there is for the artistes abroad, they should refuse offers for concerts outside of India

[kvjayan]

I'm not obsessed. This is the persistent refrain in TMK's questioning. Which subgroup has moved from which divisions? Which planet are you living in?

To begin with TMK can give a castewise and fairskin/darkskin breakup of his sishyas.

[ramamatya]

Ramamatya,
If that's what there is for the artistes abroad, they should refuse offers for concerts outside of India

, and get a bad name from the runaway community.

[Anusha]

I chanced upon this link, on T M Krishna's Facebook page. Given its relevance to this debate, I am sharing it here.
http://www.firstpost.com/entertainment/ ... 38191.html

[Nick H]

I thought that was where all this started.

Perhaps I am dodgy ground here. Plainly I am not a member of the community which TMK irks on a regular basis, so tell me to keep my mouth shut... Fair enough.

But it seems to me... Do Not Feed The Troll!

[ramamatya]

What is this TMK's 'dressed differently' mean? Women wear saari only, right? Or, did he mean Salwar or Jeans ?

[ramamatya]

I thought that was where all this started.

Perhaps I am dodgy ground here. Plainly I am not a member of the community which TMK irks on a regular basis, so tell me to keep my mouth shut... Fair enough.

But it seems to me... Do Not Feed The Troll!

Typical 'divide and rule' Brit

[sureshvv]

ramamatya seems to be the next avatar of the already banned ramamantra. Time for the mods to jump in.

[ramamatya]

ramamatya seems to be the next avatar of the already banned ramamantra. Time for the mods to jump in.

Quite a banning culture we seem to have here—banned for liberal expression, banned for social criticism, banned for trying to make Canratic music more inclusive. In effect, banned for telling the truth.

[sureshvv]

Civility is most important and you don't have it.

[uday_shankar]

In effect, banned for telling the truth.

Or going one step worse, replace truth/facts with meaningless fact-free hagiographies. When the basis of deification of a person conflicts with proven or known facts, confident cultures shift or strengthen the basis for the initial deification to the more universal basis which triggered that deification in the first place. It is hard to concurrently do all three of the following:

1) Deify a person
2) Examine him/her on a factual historic basis with various analytical tools
3) Not encounter some bumps to the deification

Rigid, inflexible cultures fall on ridiculous and flimsy pretexts. Like the the father of a person committing suicide because his child married out of caste... or similar nonsense.

Here's an imaginary conversation:

Person A (culturally confident): Swami Vivekananda was a great saint...nobody inspires me more.

Person B (culturally confident): Yes, truly awesome... a true champion of the Hindu faith.

Person A (culturally confident): He ate meat (a well known fact)

Person C (not culturally confident): You venom spewing, anti Hindu, liberal left leaning, ....

Person B: True, he ate meat but his choice of diet is not relevant to my reckoning of him as a saint and a true champion of Hinduism. I have made peace with those facts, and mind you I'm vegan for ethical reasons...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high
Where knowledge is free
Where the world has not been broken up into fragments
By narrow domestic walls
Where words come out from the depth of truth
Where tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection
Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way
Into the dreary desert sand of dead habit
Where the mind is led forward by thee
Into ever-widening thought and action
Into that heaven of freedom, my Father, let my country awake

[prabuddha]

Interestingly enough some contrasting planets can be clearly shown in the NRI universe. Thyagaraja aradhanais where one type of people predominate as opposed to FETNA gatherings where another type predominate incl an entirely different music.

In the 1940s Tamizhisai movement was there for a reason. Some prominent people like Kalki did support it for good reasons. CM concert traditions seem to have hummed and hawed for a while, then compromised with it for political expediency. Now we have Tamil compositions in the 'tukkada' section of the concert. Phew. what a scornful designation! The concert is back to its good old Thanjavur ways.

Tradition needs to be preserved and all that good stuff. But if someone like TMK holds up a mirror, it's necessary not to put on blinders immediately and pronounce that all's well with us and it's only the mirror that's dark.

[Charu Venkat]

Mr. Krishna's actions are very easily explained as pure jealousy dressed in the garb of 'initiating conversation'. He is evidently jealous of Subbulakshmi's mass appeal, the veneration she draws, and of course, her Bharath Ratna. MS Subbulakshmi has more kindness in her pinkie fingertip than all what TMK can muster.

I wonder if Mr. TM Krishna would be similarly quiet as he expects all and sundry to be if similar questions are raised about those in his family. If he is not this quiet (and he will not be quiet) then he is a hypocrite. If he is quiet about similar comments then he truly is a social reformer.

[rshankar]

Ramamatya,
If that's what there is for the artistes abroad, they should refuse offers for concerts outside of India

And stop teaching all those clueless NRIs as well via Skype.