The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

[arasi]

Just as TMK never stops, we don't either, to the point we might be inspiring him to spout more
Soon, we may all be needing group therapy It's like this: instead of diverting a child or ignoring it when it starts one of its tantrums, we are doing the opposite. He 'inspires' us poetically too--ask Ponbhairavi et al!
Difficult as it is, ignoring seems to be the best solution, at least for now, if I can do that

[sureshvv]

His argument seems to be: If MSS became popular through Meera, and not through her musical talent - it is fair game to use her story to popularize a different view!

As RSR shows, MS was very popular much before Meera. Then what is TMK talking about?
It must be MS's pan-India, Bharat Ratna type of popularity. And that is the audience that TMK is targeting.

So this must be his strategy to broadbase his appeal - from a 50% successful musician and crank personality known only to the Carnatic world to a thoughtful and analytical social commentator. These commentaries are not for our consumption at all.

[Anusha]

Moderators,
May I request you to change the sensational 'venomous' title of this thread, to a more appropriate one?

As pointed out by Uday, it is really unfortunate to see rasikas trying to use sarcasm and wit to move away from the topic,
instead of debating the real issues raised by TMK. Insecurity and escapism at its best!

[ram1999]

Just as TMK never stops, we don't either, to the point we might be inspiring him to spout more
Soon, we may all be needing group therapy It's like this: instead of diverting a child or ignoring it when it starts one of its tantrums, we are doing the opposite. He 'inspires' us poetically too--ask Ponbhairavi et al!
Difficult as it is, ignoring seems to be the best solution, at least for now, if I can do that

A typical pappan (bhraminic) approach to let anyone talk ill of anything or do any nonsense. Best would be to ignore it !!
This has been the major drawback for us being treated like this and we do not need enemies when we have krishnas who do more damage to the community !!

[ram1999]

Moderators,
May I request you to change the sensational 'venomous' title of this thread, to a more appropriate one?

As pointed out by Uday, it is really unfortunate to see rasikas trying to use sarcasm and wit to move away from the topic,
instead of debating the real issues raised by TMK. Insecurity and escapism at its best!

what is unfortunate ?? and who is insecure or trying to escape ?? Krishna has had no decency to provide a clarification yet on whatever garbage that he has written or spoken !!! I guess you should divert your concerns towards krishna and not against those who are condemning what has been said or written !!

[arasi]

Well, if being born a pAppAthi is your grouse against me, so be it Sect and race haven't been my concern all through my long life. These threads are entangling us as rasikAs (whatever our origins) more than freeing us from the negativity that TMK generates.It may or may not be his intention, but we are falling for it--that's my feeling now. If it's any consolation, Tamizh poetry thread has some of our verses on this subject...

[sureshvv]

Moderators,
May I request you to change the sensational 'venomous' title of this thread, to a more appropriate one?

Good to see that you are in perfect agreement with the spewing part.

[sankark]

I thought that was where all this started.

Perhaps I am dodgy ground here. Plainly I am not a member of the community which TMK irks on a regular basis, so tell me to keep my mouth shut... Fair enough.

But it seems to me... Do Not Feed The Troll!

Typical 'divide and rule' Brit

Ha ha. In things music, Nick is no true blood brit I think.

That's pretty offensive. And, what does that say about the "divided and ruled" populace?

[kvjayan]

Moderators,
May I request you to change the sensational 'venomous' title of this thread, to a more appropriate one?

As pointed out by Uday, it is really unfortunate to see rasikas trying to use sarcasm and wit to move away from the topic,
instead of debating the real issues raised by TMK. Insecurity and escapism at its best!

Real issue(s)? <Tambrams, the wicked caste, cruelly subjugated and appropriated the poor, subaltern MS>

[Ponbhairavi]

deleted

[ram1999]

Well, if being born a pAppAthi is your grouse against me, so be it Sect and race haven't been my concern all through my long life. These threads are entangling us as rasikAs (whatever our origins) more than freeing us from the negativity that TMK generates.It may or may not be his intention, but we are falling for it--that's my feeling now. If it's any consolation, Tamizh poetry thread has some of our verses on this subject...

I doubt if anybody is falling for krishna's rants. All that i am saying is one need not be so highly diplomatic and submissive to what others say and trying to be just not bothered !! Condemning a wrong approach is a must, else this will spiral into a bigger issue / problem. As it is we have several and these add fuel to the fire !!

And no grouse against you being born a pAppathi. I myself am a pAppan

[sureshvv]

What is interesting is that the very same arguments were made and resulted in caste based reservations in colleges and universities, including for post-graduate education. Not many made a noise and we were happy to let things deteriorate to the miserable state it is in today.

But when it comes to Carnatic Music, we get riled up about it and are ready to make our opinions be known loudly.

Looks like we have our priorities

[arasi]

I have condemned it enough, so have others. Any results? I have been least diplomatic in this case, really By the way, diplomacy can help here and there when tempers flare...
Why should the music we all profess to love suffer and go off our ken because of this rabble-rouser? He eschews the season, fine. Should we be shadowed by his malevolence towards it? That's why I feel it's a good thing to put him on hold for a while...

[Anusha]

Real issue(s)? <Tambrams, the wicked caste, cruelly subjugated and appropriated the poor, subaltern MS>

Nope.
(Apologies, I just realized that on my earlier post #90, I had shared some other link instead of this one below)
http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/m ... ide-72517

Nrithya Pillai’s post highlights the real issues clearly. I appreciate her confidence, maturity, and clarity of thought and expression.

At the onset, let me clarify that I don’t subscribe to all the views of TM Krishna. But, I truly believe that he has been raising profound
questions with conviction (over the last few years) for all of us (organizers, artistes, rasikas) to think over.

Well, just as everyone else, the passion for Carnatic music brings me to this forum. My knowledge of music is very limited. I listen to
a lot of different artistes in live concerts and recordings. And, I feel grateful to all of them. I am trying to learn vocal music,
in order to become a better rasika. I have also read the following music books, and gained some understanding:

1. The Madras Quartet – Indira Menon (Also had the privilege of meeting her in Delhi, and hearing her thoughts on Carnatic music)
2. Balasaraswati - her Art and life – Douglas Knight
3. The Devadasi and the Saint – V. Sriram
4. A Southern Music – T.M. Krishna

The questions raised by TM Krishna are:

• The Devadasi and Isaivellalar community has strongly influenced the growth of Carnatic music. Are artistes from these communities getting enough opportunities today?

• How do we make music more inclusive, enrich art?

And here is some background and some of my reflections on the first point:

• Given the historical background of displacement of devadasis (1947?), we have lost a whole lot of artistes and their valuable art. As true art lovers, I do believe that we need to make efforts to try and trace back the descendants of some of these families, and facilitate them to propagate their art.

• In particular, the Veena Dhanammal family has had a tremendous influence on the evolution of Carnatic music. Four artistes from this family have received the Sangeetha Kalanidhi award. It is well known that so many performing musicians till date, have learnt from the Dhanam family.

• Today, we have 2 performing artistes from the Dhanammal family – Tiruvarur Girish (vocal music) and Aniruddha Knight (Bharatnatyam). People who know them, or have seen their performances, would know about the sincerity and commitment of both these artistes in preserving their precious family art. Yet, I do wonder aloud why the Music Academy has not given them a performance slot in December season for the last 8 (or more) successive years?

• Some organizers, and artistes maybe already putting in efforts to address these. Such debates should help the others to reflect upon and open up.

• Yes, presently the artistes and rasikas are predominantly Brahmins. This was not the case few decades back. But, the objective of these debates is never to reflect upon our identities. It is in fact to think beyond and work for the enrichment of the art that we all love and revere.

[ram1999]

Real issue(s)? <Tambrams, the wicked caste, cruelly subjugated and appropriated the poor, subaltern MS>

Nope.
(Apologies, I just realized that on my earlier post #90, I had shared some other link instead of this one below)
http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/m ... ide-72517

Nrithya Pillai’s post highlights the real issues clearly. I appreciate her confidence, maturity, and clarity of thought and expression.

At the onset, let me clarify that I don’t subscribe to all the views of TM Krishna. But, I truly believe that he has been raising profound
questions with conviction (over the last few years) for all of us (organizers, artistes, rasikas) to think over.

Well, just as everyone else, the passion for Carnatic music brings me to this forum. My knowledge of music is very limited. I listen to
a lot of different artistes in live concerts and recordings. And, I feel grateful to all of them. I am trying to learn vocal music,
in order to become a better rasika. I have also read the following music books, and gained some understanding:

1. The Madras Quartet – Indira Menon (Also had the privilege of meeting her in Delhi, and hearing her thoughts on Carnatic music)
2. Balasaraswati - her Art and life – Douglas Knight
3. The Devadasi and the Saint – V. Sriram
4. A Southern Music – T.M. Krishna

The questions raised by TM Krishna are:

• The Devadasi and Isaivellalar community has strongly influenced the growth of Carnatic music. Are artistes from these communities getting enough opportunities today?

• How do we make music more inclusive, enrich art?

And here is some background and some of my reflections on the first point:

• Given the historical background of displacement of devadasis (1947?), we have lost a whole lot of artistes and their valuable art. As true art lovers, I do believe that we need to make efforts to try and trace back the descendants of some of these families, and facilitate them to propagate their art.

• In particular, the Veena Dhanammal family has had a tremendous influence on the evolution of Carnatic music. Four artistes from this family have received the Sangeetha Kalanidhi award. It is well known that so many performing musicians till date, have learnt from the Dhanam family.

• Today, we have 2 performing artistes from the Dhanammal family – Tiruvarur Girish (vocal music) and Aniruddha Knight (Bharatnatyam). People who know them, or have seen their performances, would know about the sincerity and commitment of both these artistes in preserving their precious family art. Yet, I do wonder aloud why the Music Academy has not given them a performance slot in December season for the last 8 (or more) successive years?

• Some organizers, and artistes maybe already putting in efforts to address these. Such debates should help the others to reflect upon and open up.

• Yes, presently the artistes and rasikas are predominantly Brahmins. This was not the case few decades back. But, the objective of these debates is never to reflect upon our identities. It is in fact to think beyond and work for the enrichment of the art that we all love and revere.

If this Krishna fights against Sabhas and influential musicians who control the sabhas to ensure fair opportunity is given to deserving musicians and musicians are recognised timely, that will perhaps help in sustainability and inclusiveness of CM !!

[kvjayan]

"How do we make music more inclusive, enrich art?"

By trying to do something quiet, constructive over a period of time and reduce mindless Tambram bashing (beating a dead creature repeatedly will get only headlines in left-liberal rags).

[ramamatya]

Puppet TMK is overdoing the beaten path, the anti-brahmin stance. Its always easy to resort to Brahmin bashing like Bollywood making fun of Tamilians. Maybe Arasi is right. Best to ignore and not feed the attention seeking, tantrum throwing kid.

[Ponbhairavi]

Transliteration of my post in tamil section.

Madhi niRaiyum nannAL ??;thirupaLLiyezhuchi.

mAdhangaLil nAn mArgazhi yenrAr krishnar
bEdham inri chennaiyil sandhu pondhellAm nal
geedham isaikkudhadA nandhalAlA.un thiranil
pAdhi kUda illAdhavargaLukkum pathukku mEl kutcheri.
kAdhil panjai gettiyAi adaithukondu
Kadhavaiyum sAthikondu poy thUkkam (thukkam )yEn ?

isai veesai yenna vilai yena kEtkum katchigal
nAsathukkE vazhi sollum nambividAdhE.avargal
nEsam un mooLaiyai salavai seydhu vidum. ushAr.
mOsadi virudhugal kadathapadum kuzhandhaiku tharum chocolate.
dhEsa adutha janAdhipathi namma Al dhAn appo ippo
lesAga kai nazhuviya bharat ratna unakuthAn - M S ku inai yena
Asai kAtti pEsi mayakkubavargal vEsigal pOl
sAsuvadhathai unaku tharakkUdiyadhu un vasam uLLa
Isai selvam mattum dhAn.idhaiyE nambu.

kuLiyal aRai mEl kobithu kondu poRamboku , kuppam ,vayal
veLI yenRu pOvadhAl kuLiyal aRaiku nashtamillai.

Yel jI perungAya dappA vegu nAL thirandhu kidandhAl vAsam pOividum
Nalla dhOr vEENaiseydhE adhai nalangeda puzhudhiyil eRivadhundO?

piLLAy ezhundhirAy innum yenna pEr uRakkam?
uLLam magizha kUdi isai pAdelO rembAvAi.

[sureshvv]

I have also read the following music books, and gained some understanding:

You are reading the wrong books

May I suggest some books that would be more informative?

1. Great Composers by Prof. Sambamoorthy
2. History of South Indian (Carnatic Music), R.Rangaramanuja Ayyangar
3. Sangeeta Ratnakaram, Same author
4. The Splendour of South Indian Music. Dr. P.T.Chelladurai

The Devadasi and Isaivellalar community has strongly influenced the growth of Carnatic music. Are artistes from these communities getting enough opportunities today?

How do we make music more inclusive, enrich art?

Don't you see the obvious fallacy in this question? If we are going to make Carnatic music truly inclusive, should we be asking for opportunities by community?

Given the historical background of displacement of devadasis (1947?), we have lost a whole lot of artistes and their valuable art.

I don't think so. The art has remained. The talented ones moved to music and theatre.

As true art lovers, I do believe that we need to make efforts to try and trace back the descendants of some of these families, and facilitate them to propagate their art.

This is so wrong headed. A "descendant" of an artiste won't automatically be an artiste. You are actually being casteist when you make these assumptions.

In particular, the Veena Dhanammal family has had a tremendous influence on the evolution of Carnatic music. Four artistes from this family have received the Sangeetha Kalanidhi award. It is well known that so many performing musicians till date, have learnt from the Dhanam family.

Today, we have 2 performing artistes from the Dhanammal family – Tiruvarur Girish (vocal music) and Aniruddha Knight (Bharatnatyam). People who know them, or have seen their performances, would know about the sincerity and commitment of both these artistes in preserving their precious family art. Yet, I do wonder aloud why the Music Academy has not given them a performance slot in December season for the last 8 (or more) successive years?

So the same academy that gave out 4 SK's to members of the family are not giving them performance slots. And you think they are automatically entitled? I cannot disagree that they are doing a great job of propagating art. But that is not what slots are given for.

Such debates should help the others to reflect upon and open up.

And may help you to correct your perspective.

Yes, presently the artistes and rasikas are predominantly Brahmins. This was not the case few decades back. But, the objective of these debates is never to reflect upon our identities. It is in fact to think beyond and work for the enrichment of the art that we all love and revere.

Yes. We should not bother/wonder about the ancestors/descendants of any artiste. We should be able to appreciate them for their art.

[shankarank]

A reasonably high ticket price will promote inclusiveness and keep out non serious listeners. So it is a question of economic progress of various castes then!

For the economically weak , there are alternative forums where music can spread, like the Ayodhya Mandapams and Urur Olcott and the Temples!

Listeners who just walk in with free passes provided by sponsors - have not been very impressive. But the so called usual CM listeners were no better were they? How we pickup mobile calls with no compunction!

Also if a musician is able to sense the nature of the sadas and adjust his/her music, by the same reasoning the musician can do a bit of lecture about a pallavi they intend to perform and perform it. So music of high order can reach more people.

We have developed this snobbish attitude towards speeches due to our elders public speech that did not keep pace with times. It reflects the same ritualistic pattern!

One insider once complained , if I go to Nanganallur to listen to music, the same SVK comes there also and gives his talk!

Well I am now this snobbish sophisticate who derides the elders! And a snobbish NRI with vested interest who is trying to monopolize access to Sabhas to people of my ilk! Oh Well!

[shankarank]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=30217#p325913

So based on that at various times ( depending how you construct the citadels of what classical CM is - based on your surveys) - the people who had entry barriers would include , MSS, Muttusvami Dikshitar, People like Somu, and later on people like TNS. You can also throw in OVK, Purandaradasa but that is a debatable one. Andal had a smooth entry due to the heavyweights that worked for her cause!

This is nothing to do with how much Crowd was there. That way for example MDR did not have such barriers. He may not be recognized due to politics , that is something else.

A Particular anecdote on TNS would include, couple of old timers outside the MFAC who would converse about , "what is this bur-bur in vAtApi itself?" Years later when all his virtuosity vanished - TNS and his son would get a Standing Ovation (of a different era!) in MFAC!

They were all to some level Nandanars! They might have had some big people ( equivalent of the Lord himself) by their side. But they did have barriers.

So this definition of classicism is not quite elitist. It sounds like more a pickiness of being raised in a bed of roses, nothing to do with the silver spoon.

[Anusha]

You are reading the wrong books

May I suggest some books that would be more informative?

1. Great Composers by Prof. Sambamoorthy
2. History of South Indian (Carnatic Music), R.Rangaramanuja Ayyangar
3. Sangeeta Ratnakaram, Same author
4. The Splendour of South Indian Music. Dr. P.T.Chelladurai

Many Thanks for your suggestions. I will surely try to read these books. 'Wrong books' - didn't get that ?

As true art lovers, I do believe that we need to make efforts to try and trace back the descendants of some of these families, and facilitate them to propagate their art.

This is so wrong headed. A "descendant" of an artiste won't automatically be an artiste. You are actually being casteist when you make these assumptions.

Agree, that a descendant may not be an artiste. Let me clarify this a little more. I was having potential areas of research in mind.
Let's take for example Mylapore Gowri ammal. If we could trace any descendant / disciple who has learnt from her, then it will be helpful
for us to preserve her style/ bani. And as I mentioned earlier, I was only focusing on the issues in debate. (Of course, the attempts to
preserve the style holds for any other musician, irrespective of caste.)

Such debates should help the others to reflect upon and open up.

And may help you to correct your perspective.

Absolutely. I would re-iterate that my views are of a lay rasika. I will be ever open to corrections. How about you?

[Anusha]

What is interesting is that the very same arguments were made and resulted in caste based reservations in colleges and universities, including for post-graduate education. Not many made a noise and we were happy to let things deteriorate to the miserable state it is in today.

But when it comes to Carnatic Music, we get riled up about it and are ready to make our opinions be known loudly.

Looks like we have our priorities

Could you clarify what you mean here? I am not aware of caste-based reservations in Carnatic music.

[sureshvv]

'Wrong books' - didn't get that ?

I think you need to go back in time a little bit more for a true perspective on this ancient art. Look for the classics is my advice. Your list is too new for my liking.

Let's take for example Mylapore Gowri ammal. If we could trace any descendant / disciple who has learnt from her, then it will be helpful for us to preserve her style/ bani.

I much prefer when you say "disciple" rather than "descendant" although both may be true in many instances. I think this distinction is very important to not further the caste chasm that we need to bridge.

Absolutely. I would re-iterate that my views are of a lay rasika. I will be ever open to corrections. How about you?

Of course! Which is why we are having this discussion. And, by the way, most of us here are only lay rasikas. So feel free to post your opinions boldly

[sureshvv]

Could you clarify what you mean here? I am not aware of caste-based reservations in Carnatic music.

We don't have them. And we never should. Caste based reservations in any field goes only to divide us further. If not before, this should be obvious now after decades of conducting this failed experiment.

[Anusha]

[/quote]
Of course! Which is why we are having this discussion. And, by the way, most of us here are only lay rasikas. So feel free to post your opinions boldly
[/quote]

Thanks for the encouraging reply. As you might have seen, I am flooded with so many thoughts. And, I wonder if the mods will ban me for making too many posts!

[Anusha]

Caste based reservations in any field goes only to divide us further. If not before, this should be obvious now after decades of conducting this failed experiment.

I have a different opinion. Will try to explain sometime.

[sankark]

"How do we make music more inclusive, enrich art?"

Why should CM (or HM or WCM or RobindroSangeeth or yakshagAnam or sOpanam) be inclusive? Music is inclusive - believe anyone in the world has some music they like and listen and derive satisfaction/enlightenment.

Say can we take this and say "How do we make therukUthu more inclusive"?

[sureshvv]

True. But the people who like CM may believe that having more and diverse people interested/practicing the art may further it. Kind of evangelizing CM.

[Narayanan NB]

I feel there is unwanted focus on all things except music in Carnatic. It would be better to focus on the numerous shruti lapses of performers that Carnatic music has come to be associated with as though lapse in shruti is one of the essence of Carnatic music. Being a student and rasika of both Carnatic and Hindustani, I feel there is more sincerity towards music in Hindustani. TMK keeps mentioning that a musician's sincerity should be towards music and not towards rasikas which I perfectly agree. I agree with many of his ideas about Carnatic music and I also love his music most of the time. But I fail to see sincerity towards music in his performances many times. I don't care what he has to say while he is not performing. And I am perfectly fine with him not sticking to a paddhati etc as long as the music is sincere, But you can distance yourself and focus on music and on more serious issues related to music like lapse in shruti while you are performing. I was so frustrated to listen to him blabbering about some dead journalist , then about some God damn writer (God knows who they are and what their connection is with music) and about one's right to protest etc, in one of his concert, while on the other hand his shruti lapses were becoming more and more unbearable. That way, performers of Hindustani music are far more sincere, keeping music and only music as the central theme.

By the way, I would love to listen to a debate between Rajan Parikkar and TMK.

[sureshvv]

Both are gas bags but one several orders of magnitude more intelligent.

[shankarank]

while on the other hand his shruti lapses were becoming more and more unbearable. That way, performers of Hindustani music are far more sincere, keeping music and only music as the central theme.

Well HM has a different layam flow and a different handling of Sruti. A thoughtful CM would find it's own optimum ( is like football players worried about concussions) to avoid voice damage.

And an efficient CM system would have replaced TMK by now. We leave brand building to the musicians themselves. We have problems from supply chain to production line to marketing to delivery ( hah! I have commercialized CM!!).

And we bad mouth past Brand builders who did it big time for the artistes as well

TMK's digressions into other things suggest a deep failure of brand building and keeping with times!

[Anusha]

By trying to do something quiet, constructive over a period of time

Here is how I see it.

TM Krishna may be attention seeking. But, as long as his causes are genuine, that is fine.
(Yes, there are various other artistes making great efforts in their own right, with less or no publicity.
My intent is never to compare one against the other. Each one has specific priorities.)

Quite often rasikas have wished that TMK sticks to his music. TMK has clearly explained his stand. He feels the need to link art with
societal issues. Let’s respect his choice.

I see TMK as an intellectual with complete conviction in his music, and the causes that he works on. It requires exemplary courage and strength to fight against the system, when we are actually part of it, and continue to work there with a resolve to address it. His quest for critical enquiry in and outside music, amazes me.

Yes, he is there in all forms of media, with provocative articles, and talks on music, social, political issues.
I have been regular to read the ones on music. I have not read much of his non-music articles, have preferred to read other reporters,
historians on such issues.

Yes, many of his writings seem cynical, negative, and wordy. I have often had an impulse to deny, react to it immediately. Felt disturbed, confused, annoyed at times. I understand some of his points, and don’t follow some others. But, importantly they expose the harsh realities of life.
In the IT world, this is called ‘Disruptive thinking’. In the socio-political world, well maybe ‘Revolution’?

TMK’s book has received critical acclaim from scholars Amartya Sen, David Shulman among others. I see that as an achievement.

Efforts led by TMK: in addition to performing and teaching, changes to the concert format, study of Sangeeta Sampradaya Pradashini, Organizing Nadaswaram concerts at various venues in December, Singing with Jogappas, Urur Olcott Kuppam - arranging concerts in alternate venues, exploring other art forms.

(With due respect, I would disagree with Chitravina Ravikiran’s article, especially to the ‘fake-news’ and ‘less Action-Talk ratio’ allegations.)

Will TMK's efforts yield results? We need to wait and watch. It depends largely on how much support he gets from fellow musicians, organizers, and rasikas. I wish him all success.

[sureshvv]

Can you paraphrase for us:

1. What is wrong with the "system" now
2. How to go about "fixing" it
3. How anything TMK has been doing is aligned with #2 above.

[kvjayan]

#183 looks like the abstract of an MPhil dissertation under preparation (perhaps to be submitted to JNU).

[Charu Venkat]

I think there's some substance to the "fair complexion" arguments. Indians of all hues are very racist and certainly "fair complexion" is a highly valued absolute. Krishna, Krishnaa (aka Draupadi) are all exceptions cited as if to prove a point. Yes, they prove that everybody else worthy of praise or adoration or reverence was "fair and lovely" . Not a single character in Kalidaasa is "dark and lovely" !!

Ironically, Indians considered very "fair" in India feel insulted when they are labeled people of "color" in America . There is no end to this nonsense.

In politics, one might argue that Indira Gandhi, MGR, Jayalalitha, may have been considered less "charismatic" figures if they had been black instead of white.

Worst of all, dark complexioned people are made to feel inferior across Indian culture, much more so than "colored" people are made to feel in white lands in modern times. So while Indian "culture" has remained stagnant, western "culture" is evolving.

So that argument is not without merit.

Also, please excuse me if I don't respond to "rebuttals". My goal is never to win any "arguments", I don't have any.

Nithyasree Mahadevan is dark skinned.

Bombay Jayashree is dark skinned.

Palghat Mani Iyer was dark skinned.

Sanjay Subhramanyan is dark skinned.

And they all are successful.

The color of your skin doesn't make you successful in Carnatic music. Your music does.

[Charu Venkat]

Here is a more important yet unaddressed question that T M Krishna or any of you fail to address: why was there a reduction in the number of Isai Vellalars in music?

Was it because they lacked talent? No - they were amongst the most gifted of musical communities. Karunanidhi's writing prowess despite his low level of education can be attributed to this genetic talent.

Was it because they were poor or lacked backing? No - there was always an Annamalai Chettiar to support them in Tamil Isai Sangam.

Was it because they had an option to not do music and seek more stable jobs? Yes - due to affirmative action, they shed the vagaries of a musical career so they, a so-called OBC community, could get into top universities like IIT Madras more easily, and settle into more paying jobs and 'abandon' the art of their forefathers.

Look at T Brinda! She had a son Surendra - he did not pursue music! From the family of Veena Dhanammal, only three are musicians today, and two active performers only! Compare it to the state some 80-90 years ago!

Isai Vellalars were musicians due to a lack of franchise. Once education and more cushy jobs were available, they moved into those professions.

TMK should first learn his basic history, sociology, and anthropology (preferably NOT from JNU) and come back to speak about these issues, not to mention decency, etiquette, and class.

[Charu Venkat]

1. What is wrong with the "system" now

Non-Brahmin musicians aren't getting slots in Sabhas during the season irrespective of the fact that the number of non-Brahmin, non-Nagaswaram artiste musicians is almost NIL.

2. How to go about "fixing" it

Give Non-Brahmin musicians prime slots in Saptarishi sabhas irrespective of talent due to their caste, leading up to caste-based reservation in Carnatic Music.

3. How anything TMK has been doing is aligned with #2 above.

He 'gives' upcoming Nagaswaram musicians junior slots in Saptarishi Sabha. Such programs are marked in Sabha schedules as being 'Sponsored by Sumanasa Foundation'. A complete list is available on his FB page.

[Charu Venkat]

It would be better to focus on the numerous shruti lapses of performers that Carnatic music has come to be associated with as though lapse in shruti is one of the essence of Carnatic music.

Unless Carnatic music according to you is the atonal bovine faeces TN Seshagopalan produces, I suggest you go back and listen to Carnatic music properly. It is obvious you haven't.

I feel there is more sincerity towards music in Hindustani.

No one turns up to a Hindustani music concert, so the musician sings like there is no one around (and there is no one around). You have conflated this with 'sincerity'.

But you can distance yourself and focus on music and on more serious issues related to music like lapse in shruti while you are performing.

If you want to find faults and slips in shruti you will find exactly that. Go back and listen to his music properly and learn to appreciate it as a whole without listening to it to find shruti slips and you may probably like it (but understanding is still a long way for you).

That way, performers of Hindustani music are far more sincere, keeping music and only music as the central theme.

Musicians are in essence communicators, and the message Hindustani musicians seem to send out is 'we don't want anyone here' through their boring, unpalatable, bland renditions.

Perhaps the Indian army should consider using Hindustani Music to disperse a disruptive crowd in Kashmir/ NE India since it seems to have the effect of keeping crowds away!

[ramamatya]

It requires exemplary courage and strength to fight against the system, when we are actually part of it, and continue to work there with a resolve to address it. His quest for critical enquiry in and outside music, amazes me.

Yes, he is there in all forms of media, with provocative articles, and talks on music, social, political issues.

Really? Bashing Brahmins is one of the easiest thing to do. No need for exemplary courage and strength to fight against the system. Others that can get you instant fame/recognition/awards (read Magsaysay etc) are making noises about India being a poverty ridden country, how minorities are treated, etc. The list is endless. Bashing Brahmins is a very old technique as old as maybe 1960s or so when the Dravidian movement started out. Correct me if I'm wrong about the decade.

Wonder why this puppet has taken up the old technique. Maybe applying it to a new scenario like Carnatic, he thinks,makes him a pioneer. And people come out in droves saying he is some unique, exemplary character !

[sureshvv]

Only us Tamil mamas seem to be wise to his designs. Seems to getting traction among young people, women (Anusha for instance) & people in other states.

[sankark]

That way, performers of Hindustani music are far more sincere, keeping music and only music as the central theme.

Musicians are in essence communicators, and the message Hindustani musicians seem to send out is 'we don't want anyone here' through their boring, unpalatable, bland renditions.

Perhaps the Indian army should consider using Hindustani Music to disperse a disruptive crowd in Kashmir/ NE India since it seems to have the effect of keeping crowds away!

I haven't much, almost nil, listened to HM. So no thoughts on the applicability/veracity.

But almost ROTFL. Thanks for that.

[Narayanan NB]

Dear Charu Venkat Sir
Let me make it very clear that I don't have anything against Carnatic music or T.M Krishna. I am a big fan of TMK and as I mentioned in the earlier post I agree with most of his views regarding Carnatic music. I have been listening to Carnatic music for more than 20 years and I rate one of TMK' s concert I heard a year back Aug 21, 2016 to be one of the best I have heard in Carnatic and one of the most sublime experience I ever had listening to a Carnatic concert. I had narrated my experience of listening to that concert in this very forum. My only request to TMK in the earlier post was to stick to music while in a concert. I can't fathom the relationship that music has with some unknown writer or a poet or right to protest against certain evil law allowing terrorists to be hanged. While in normal course I would not have cared for Shruti lapses, like in the concert he gave on Aug 21 I forgot everything including myself, I thought he could have rather focussed on the shruti aspect rather than talk about such political stuffs which are in no way connected to music. And I've nothing against TMK when he says these outside a music concert as I am least bothered about what he has to say when he is not delivering music. It is in this very context that I said HM musicians are far more sincere. I never claimed they are superior to CM musicians. But yes they would have rather focussed on something related to music even if they wanted to say something in between a concert.

[shankarank]

It seems to make HM interesting, it requires Carnatic musicians to steal some of its ways and sing CM like it!!

[Narayanan NB]

It would be better to focus on the numerous shruti lapses of performers that Carnatic music has come to be associated with as though lapse in shruti is one of the essence of Carnatic music.

Unless Carnatic music according to you is the atonal bovine faeces TN Seshagopalan produces, I suggest you go back and listen to Carnatic music properly. It is obvious you haven't.

I feel there is more sincerity towards music in Hindustani.

No one turns up to a Hindustani music concert, so the musician sings like there is no one around (and there is no one around). You have conflated this with 'sincerity'.

But you can distance yourself and focus on music and on more serious issues related to music like lapse in shruti while you are performing.

If you want to find faults and slips in shruti you will find exactly that. Go back and listen to his music properly and learn to appreciate it as a whole without listening to it to find shruti slips and you may probably like it (but understanding is still a long way for you).

That way, performers of Hindustani music are far more sincere, keeping music and only music as the central theme.

Musicians are in essence communicators, and the message Hindustani musicians seem to send out is 'we don't want anyone here' through their boring, unpalatable, bland renditions.

Perhaps the Indian army should consider using Hindustani Music to disperse a disruptive crowd in Kashmir/ NE India since it seems to have the effect of keeping crowds away!

And as far as crowd in HM goes just take a note of the attendance for the Sawai Gandharva Mahotsav. But it's not a social get together for NRIs who want to discuss about the taste of the food in the canteen or their latest vacations or the latest fashion trends.

[Sachi_R]

Sorry can't follow the conversations here easily with my addled brain, so please elucidate if Sumana's Foundation of Sri. TMK is scheduling and arranging concerts by exploited and disadvantaged people? Where, please? Anyone attended such a concert?

[sureshvv]

There are 2 nadaswaram festivals in January, one at BGS, another at KGS. Both sponsored by Nalli.

[Anusha]

2. How to go about "fixing" it

Give Non-Brahmin musicians prime slots in Saptarishi sabhas irrespective of talent due to their caste, leading up to caste-based reservation in Carnatic Music.

Oops. That’s the most unkindest cut!

Here, you are making two assumptions :
1. All slots belong to Brahmin artistes.
Incorrect. Music is universal, it is not the possession of a single community.

2. We are sacrificing few slots to other community artistes
Incorrect again. We are not reserving. In fact, they are deserving. They have enriched our art, and we have been
neglecting them from leading sabhas.

Let's show some sensitivity, please.

[sureshvv]

Oops. That’s the most unkindest cut!

I think he/she was just being sarcastic.

Here, you are making two assumptions :
1. All slots belong to Brahmin artistes.
Incorrect. Music is universal, it is not the possession of a single community.

Agree 100%. Like I said, I don't think that assumption was ever made.

In fact, they are deserving. They have enriched our art, and we have been neglecting them from leading sabhas.

Not convinced. Give us some names. We will go listen to them. And if you are right, we will petition the sabhas right from here. Sachi will do the paperwork

[shankarank]

atonal bovine faeces TN Seshagopalan produces

If translated back , that was revered - something holy. We were accommodating of some of the ills of musicians that developed overtime, because there was value in it. Including many YACMers whom we listened with patience . India is a compassionate place in many ways!