Inauguration of MA season

[kvchellappa]

From FB:
Chitravina Ravikiran

My warmest personal invitation to all musicians, scholars, students, music lovers for the Inaguration of the Music Academy Conference today! Let's look forward to a Season where the incredible power of music to spread positivism, happiness, peace, unity, goodwill and harmony between people of all cultures and communities will hold Center-Stage...

[Sivaramakrishnan]

Attended the function with forumite CRama. And fortunate to have the august company of scholar-writer Sri S Sankaranarayanan sir for the colourful event. Needless to say the speeches of Sangita Kalanidhi designate Ravikiran and Chief guest Isai gnani Ilayaraja were well received by the audience.

The Nagaswaram recital preceding the inaugural session by Sri Ravi & party with a beautiful Keeravani (Devi neeye thunai) gave a serene start.

[Sachi_R]

Devi.. What a wonderful Keeravani composition. What a composer!

[devan]

It seems ilayaraja gave it back nicely when Ravikiran lamented that people are not supporting instrumental music. He said,donot beg the people. If you are good they will automatically come and listen in large numberss. Ravikaram music may appeal to the pseudo listeners but not to lesser intellectual gallery masses.

[Sachi_R]

I side with SKD CNRK. Let Ilayaraja try having a couple of songs in any film without the voices, orchestration and only a plaintive instrument, maybe with an Arun Prakash type of percussion and see how many hits he will get.

[sankark]

I side with SKD CNRK. Let Ilayaraja try having a couple of songs in any film without the voices, orchestration and only a plaintive instrument, maybe with an Arun Prakash type of percussion and see how hits he will get.

Knee jerk reaction? I think Ilayaraja would have spoken about instrumental sevviyal (classic/sanskriti) music and not about pop(ular) music.

[Sachi_R]

If you say Ilayaraja's was a knee jerk reaction, I agree.

Our musical tastes have been so altered by noisy and jazzy music that instrumentalists of even extraordinary calibre are not attracting big audiences. This is a fact. Basically our tastes have been corrupted perhaps irredeemably. And then factors like hall acoustics, poor electronics,...

[sureshvv]

Kadri Gopalnath and Rajesh Vaidya attract big crowds, esp. when they play at the Ayyappa Bhaktha Samajam.

So I don't think Ravikiran was lamenting lack of support for all instrumental music. It must have been more nuanced.

[sankark]

vINai, gOttuvAdyam aka chitravINai and assorted instrumental sevviyal music doesn't have much takers. That''s the truth today, in the past and in the future as well. For gods sake, some instruments without amplification can't be more than chamber music instruments. It isn't going to bring masses - if you could fill Ragasudha Hall on a holiday, that is an achievement. So Ilayaraja would have spoken about the people that are inclined toward sevviyal music and pulling them in and not masses.

For that matter, how many musicians patronize/attend instrumental concerts? Assuming there are about 1000 performing artistes/amateurs in chennai on RK's concert day @ MA, can we in all probability say about 20 - 30 may make it there?

For those that pull in (KG or RajVai or ManSrinivas), my arm chair theory is that it is about familiarity of the songs that have been already burnt into the listeners through other channels (vocal music, stOtram, etc.). If they take s''bharaNam or a mmg or sAveri or kannadabangAlA or nItimati (god forbid) and start playing long AlApanais or obscure kritis and cut down on the virtuosity/explosive swara segments matched with percussion exuberance, the audience could melt away.

[shankarank]

Mandolin U. Srinivas came down to the Madurai poor local sabha, which started with Rs 20 contribution and held at the temple about 1982 or so. In that conservative locality, I have never witnessed a more exciting day about music before. People went gaga over his raghuvamsa sudA.

There was not that much excitement about Sikkil Sisters , although they were also well attended.

Ilayaraja should blame himself rather than the musicians

The sabha was started by two ladies outside of the T.V.S Employee families, although one such family used to do tyAgarAja utsavam , a free event with donations. We did have vINa concerts in the utsavam - but don't remember any in the sabha.

I heard about Sri Ravikiran for the first time at the office of Prof. Ambirajan with Sri TTN also in there - the week of his concert @ Music club about 1988.

With Ravikiran it is a chicken -egg issue. Without a robust Mridangist, his concerts simply don't take off! And he may not have them because of lack of following and support!

[kvchellappa]

Ilayaraja said what is obvious. There is no way we can force an audience. We can offer it free at best and it is being done. It is not just instrumentalists alone, but even some good vocalists who get poor attendance. Mudra for one has organised a veena series and some such attempts are made. Whether we understand meaning or not vocalised words seem to have some attraction. RSachi's attempt to have music in curriculum was a good move, but did not get support. If music is inculcated from a young age the chances are that one will have the ear for even instrumental music. Music and yoga can build character and nation, but is viewed as religious and hence untouchable.

[sankark]

We can offer it free at best and it is being done. It is not just instrumentalists alone, but even some good vocalists who get poor attendance.

That could be the totally wrong approach, to have so much quality music available for free . Free might be perceived of as not worth

[devan]

Two more bits. Ravikiran's speech was too long. It was complete self trumpeting. He did non thank the academy. Tvg prompted him to thank the academy. Being a great intellectual,he might have expected the academy members to thank him.

[rajeshnat]

Always Vocal Voice has more appeal to any of the instruments (with mandolin srinivas and Flute mALi are exceptions , i am not sure if even TN Rajarathirnam pillai had that much crowd like MAli). The problem is with more and more vocal choices of quality musicians the spread for instrumental music gets thinner .

Also any new generation rasikas starts with vocal gets familiarized and move to instrumental on days when the vocal count is literally less . But when all days have a lot of vocal concert , only those instrumentalist who market with The Hindu and with lot of international exposure they have some what minimal draw rest are really having a tough time.

[Nick H]

... Free might be perceived of as not worth

That might be true if the vocal concerts were not free also.

Ravikiran is generally popular amongst us [rasikas.org]. His SK-ship was supported and welcomed with an amazing small amount of dissent from us bunch of crotchety old guys.

I have always been a fan. Of late, I find his music is sometimes too intellectual. For me, music may be based on arithmetic, trigonometry or quantum mechanics; I do not care what mental machinations went into its composition. I care only that the result is beautiful, and does not require appreciation of the technicalities for enjoyment. It's a small complaint; I'm still his fan, still delighted that he is the SK [-designate] of this year's season, and still amazed that he has achieved the necessary lifetime of musical accomplishment in so few years.

[asangeetha]

It seems ilayaraja gave it back nicely when Ravikiran lamented that people are not supporting instrumental music...

What a misleading statement! I was also personally present and would like to say this. The original statement made by Shri Ravikiran about instrumental music was a totally different one which was probably taken out of context by Shri Ilayaraja and consequently by others. Your statement that 'Ilayaraja gave it back' is surprising ..because there was no insult or negativity made in the first place to 'give back'!

It was not about 'begging' people to come to concerts. Ravikiran clearly stated that instrumental was being appreciated in large numbers abroad and he would like to see that happen in Chennai also. His point was also that many brilliant instrumentalists were not given enough opportunities in Chennai and that they should also be encouraged. This is of course from someone who has no trouble drawing huge crowds in the order of 5 digit numbers, internationally and equally appreciated for his music in Chennai. It seemed that he was making a constructive observation so that everyone could benefit and it was not even a problem that he personally faced.

There were many great musicians in the past who cared little for pleasing crowds. They held their convictions strongly and stuck by it unwaveringly. There was a very important reason for that! Classical music is not like film music where the 'catchiness' is the only criteria. Yes, it takes a genius to create Rakamma Kaiya Thattu which can be ranked 4th in the world, but in classical music, a balance must be struck between staying true to the art and fulfilling the need to entertain the masses. Comparing classical and film is like comparing apples and oranges, a futile exercise.

[asangeetha]

Two more bits. Ravikiran's speech was too long. It was complete self trumpeting.

The speech touched upon a wide variety of topics but 'self-trumpeting'? He talked about his early childhood training, his belief that music was unifying, the power of positivity, the issues students and parents faced in the pursuit of learning music, an appreciation for the genius that was his father and his training methods, suggestions for helping others to take up composing Carnatic music, issues instrumentalists faced locally and so on. There was no talk about his innumerable achievements since there was hardly a need for it. If actions speak louder than words, in the case of Shri Ravikiran, they become absolutely deafening! Let us all look at things positively and strive to make this world a better place!

He did non thank the academy. Tvg prompted him to thank the academy.

It looked like Shri Ravikiran came back to say that he accepts as a formality.Nothing more, nothing less.

[shankarank]

The problem is with more and more vocal choices of quality musicians the spread for instrumental music gets thinner .

There used to be vocalists who produced what they called as essence of music!

For that matter, how many musicians patronize/attend instrumental concerts?

Only musicians attended those musician's musicians. Which means rest of the musicians were catchy entertainers!

So from saying things in the negative : NOT every one can enjoy Carnatic music , Mridangam is NOT music - lets make a positive definitive statement: Only musicians can really enjoy the real music

[uday_shankar]

Well said, asangeetha. I think @devan's characterization is pretty loose and therefore misleading.

Comparing classical and film is like comparing apples and oranges, a futile exercise.

Ain't that the truth. I personally thought Ilaya Raja was such a bad choice for an MA chief guest. Even some irrelevant chemistry Nobel laureate may have been better, because he was probably a little more acquainted with CM and the unique rasika scenario of CM.

More to the point, it may be fair to say a "classical" music can seek to be a little more than a sensual titillation of the kind which can automatically "pull the listener", paraphrasing Ilaya Raja. That's popular and film music. Classical music is an acquired taste and it sometimes takes years of exposure to develop a taste. It's like sundakkai vetha kuzhambu vs channa masala. Many people from other countries/cultures are readily drawn to the immediate tittilation of channa masala but very few have the patience to develop a taste for vetha kuzhambu with perungayam. Even worse, some develop a taste for that nauseous aabhaasam called biryani :p.

So there's nothing wrong in imploring rasikas to seek beyond the mere tittilation of the familiar, in this case, vocal music. I don't know of any other system of "classical" music in the world which has as poor a following for instrumental music as Carnatic music. To take the case of western classical music, a genre that Ilaya Raja is familiar with, I would estimate that the majority of the repertoire is strictly instrumental. Except for the liturgical baroque works of Bach and others, the operatic works of Italian and German composers, and the occasional song/leider of Schubert, it's all mostly instrumental, solo, or ensembles of various sizes ranging from three to an entire symphony orchestra.

In terms of the amount of abstraction that instrumental music represents, any of those western works are several orders of magnitude more abstract than a single Carnatic instrument playing a single melody of a very familiar vocal song, in a very vocal way, to the accompaniment of a percussion instrument. And yet Carnatic rasikas can't even handle that! I doubt if this can be good for a "classical" music. Even film and popular music fans have a better understanding of music as just sound. In CM, the violin accompaniment and percussion instruments alone may remain in the near future. Manual tamburas are already a minority.

[Sivaramakrishnan]

Ravikiran and Ilaiyaraja are masters in their respective fields.

Both have contributed to enhance the level of appreciation of music by rasikas.

Listen to the scintillating Raga-Taala Malika Tillana of Ravikiran (his own composition) or rendering of Oothukadu compositions - many of them quite challenging.

Listen to the song tuned by Ilaiyaraja - Ahanthayil aaduvadhaa aadarkalai (lyrics by Karunanidhi) and sung by Sriram Parthasarathy for the film Uliyin Oasai released several years ago. The Pallavi is set in Rasikapriya and the two stanzas have a splendid ragabhedam to Mayamalavagoula.

The song perhaps went unnoticed as the film bombed at the box office.

[arasi]

Would like to listen to the song!

[Sivaramakrishnan]

Arasi,

The song available in YouTube.( I didn't check recently)
Type Songs from Uliyin Osai ....Tamil film....

Just leaving home for today's 'Sabha hopping'!

[shankarank]

In terms of the amount of abstraction that instrumental music represents, any of those western works are several orders of magnitude more abstract than a single Carnatic instrument playing a single melody of a very familiar vocal song, in a very vocal way, to the accompaniment of a percussion instrument.

Would like to ask how popular is indeed classical music in the West? Even if you say that is many times substantial than the Indian traditional music , Isn't it linked to the funding available (in general to do not just art, everything else like Scientific research) , the focus of the societies and the economic progress?

In spite of that isn't it easy to see the pop versions of the arts are indeed more popular?

In contrast, abstractions aside, we would like to equate Carnatic with classical if only to tweak our narratives to the current times, at the same time we are not willing talk about Sanskriti in the music as against the Bhakti rasa. Now even Bhakti rasa sounds so Ghetto , that Sanskriti does not even have a chance in any narrative? No body wants to use the word?

We are not willing to call it a treason committed on the civilization and continue committing the same on it. This treason was committed in the Constituent assembly itself - when Sanskrit was discussed!! as though Sanskrit is just a language!! And really does it matter whether it was a mother or a child of languages??

Brahmins ( lets use the term loosely shall we?) have helped preserve something ( even without fully aware or able to articulate) just like the word paNDAram is used ( paNdu sottukaLai pAdukAppavar) , but a Sanskrit teacher gets heckled in class and does not get the respect he deserves??? Why ??
And this music, yes, Carnatic music was/is NOT theirs, yet they preserved it!!


Forget lack of appreciation for abstraction or instrumental. Having progressed into modern advance of knowledge, we haven't even been able to articulate what we have, before we can think of building a "classical" ( I am using it in the western sense of the word, assuming that we absorbed a new concept from the West and want to develop on it, now that we are westernized anyways!) and even when we are at it, we get hurled bunch of further treason in the form Leftist critique!!!

First let people learn to respect their own civilization!! Then we can talk!!!

[sankark]

If you say Ilayaraja's was a knee jerk reaction, I agree.

Our musical tastes have been so altered by noisy and jazzy music that instrumentalists of even extraordinary calibre are not attracting big audiences. This is a fact. Basically our tastes have been corrupted perhaps irredeemably. And then factors like hall acoustics, poor electronics,...

Leaving aside the matter of who is the master of which universe and all sundry other items, if Ilayaraja meant do your best and you don't have to beg anyone to patronize/attend instrumental (or vocal or kazhaikkUththAttam or therukkUththu), I think he was just right. So it won't be his knee jerk reaction; and from what I have read of him on the internets, his attitude is the same - I do my best; either you take it or not.

Now an artiste may (or a rasika like may) bemoan the lack of audience to such good/pristine/wonderful music. And I think that is our birthright too. But it isn't going to bring in folks.

And shankarank, your ability to tie/bring sanskriti to any topic is simply amazing, non-pareil. Tongue so firmly in cheek it might not be able to disengage at all

[sureshvv]

Now an artiste may (or a rasika like may) bemoan the lack of audience to such good/pristine/wonderful music. And I think that is our birthright too. But it isn't going to bring in folks.

Question is do you see this as a problem that can be "fixed"? Apparently Ravikiran does! And he exhorts people who can do something (anything) about it to do what they can. If Ilayaraja's statement was in response (and it may not have been), I see that in poor taste!

[shankarank]

Ok Sir, if only people realize that all of this is not just out of thin air, but received via, a Guru Sishya parampara, first they will at least give their ear? Whether they like it or not? Why does it not cross their mind??

Doesn't anybody respect their teachers? You know how many colleagues I have had, who said a high school teacher job in a public school is baby sitting and resolving fights and silly issues.

An elementary particle physicist (Phd) who taught Math in Ohio State University as a lecturer, he would lift the paper weight symbolically and ask it - here do you want to learn Math? - say no mockingly and put it down!!

Do we realize and appreciate the cultural resource that put me next to him when we were programming??

Culture is a country club like they have it in the West? Worse a ghetto? Where are the bars and what do they serve?

[sureshvv]

I must be dumb because I am unable to figure out what your post is in response to or what it is arguing for, And your rhetorical questions (I suppose) are of no help.

Can you pls. slow down a bit and explain?

[arasi]

It all makes me think...how lucky the old world musicians were! I don't deny that many of them thought about their art in depth and discussed it too--but all en camera! It meant we barely know what they were all about, in relation to their art. Now, we live in a bare it all world, our progress enabling us to peer into every word and move that they make. What's worse, adding our own masAlA of political and artistic intents and more, which at times we perceive to be theirs! tAnE thalaiyil aTchatai pOTTuk koNDu (using our own free will)

[kvchellappa]

I remember what a pouranika said. He said that Siva and Vishnu live at perfect ease with each other and that it is only their followers who are at loggerheads.

[sureshvv]

It all makes me think...how lucky the old world musicians were! I don't deny that many of them thought about their art in depth and discussed it too--but all en camera!

Not so sure! There are enough stories about how they were jealous of each other or bad mouthed each other. Whether they are true or otherwise is a different matter.

[arasi]

Ah, that acknowledged, I was thinking of the way they thought about music and discussed it.

[shankarank]

Not so sure! There are enough stories about how they were jealous of each other or bad mouthed each other. Whether they are true or otherwise is a different matter.

If your parents ever stayed with you, would you look at it as an addition to your food bill or cherish it? Meaning is it the body and bodily qualities or something beyond that that you would consider as important. I recall something here a conversation with Rohan the Mridangist, about CSM and I alluded to their not so worthy habits. He the youngster(minor at that time) was mature to respond: "Yeah they did some imprudent things, but I focus on their greatness as artists."

I must be dumb because I am unable to figure out what your post is in response to or what it is arguing for, And your rhetorical questions (I suppose) are of no help. Can you pls. slow down a bit and explain?

So when it was mentioned that Carnatic rasikas cannot even deal with the amount of abstraction that comes out of a well heard song rendered in an instrument with percussion, the person was already talking with a "world citizen" kind of universal perspective. Am I to take it that, that means the rasikas have not developed their cerebral capabilities? Whilst there are many rasikas who are stuck to their view point about music not being cerebral, but for the soul - which is mostly referring to emotional appeal!

Between the world citizen (the buddhi jIvis of today) vs. contextual notions like soulfulness and Bhava, there is something called Sanskriti which is our intellectual tradition. It may or may not measure up to multi dimensional complexity of the Western art, but it is there. It is has quite some universal capabilities. Somehow we cannot expect the new age Indian population to converge on to that , but we all have to meet and converge with a Western paradigm, because we are all otherwise parochial and sectarian. That is the notion that I am up against.

[arasi]

nAn kollan pattaRaiyil Or I...(I am a fly on the wall in a smithy). I may not have the brains to discuss serious things with you guys--I'm old, yet not parochial. It wasn't some patina that I acquired over the years by living away from my culture. I do not operate merely with my notions. All that I gained (and failed to gain) until my mid-twenties in India influenced me. Life experiences affirmed that manida kulam (humanity) is the same in its nature--good, bad, indifferent, wherever you go.
Art is one precious thing which allows us to add more meaning to our lives. We are all entitled to it, and there is no rigid rule as to how we approach it. For a bhAvajIvi, it's also learning here and there from the more-informed. Yet, rasikatva (appreciation) in music is more about the joy in listening to good music than about getting scholarly to a high degree beyond reach, grasping to it with vehemence and losing our keenness in appreciating what we hear...

[sureshvv]

I can understand shankarank's indignation.

When uday says:

In terms of the amount of abstraction that instrumental music represents, any of those western works are several orders of magnitude more abstract than a single Carnatic instrument playing a single melody of a very familiar vocal song, in a very vocal way, to the accompaniment of a percussion instrument. And yet Carnatic rasikas can't even handle that!

it may come off as a put down of Carnatic music/rasikas.

But the counter is that Carnatic music is not trying to be abstract. It is being very real and encouraging the rasika to mine the depths of bhava in the music and the lyrics by feeling. So unless you are willing to take the plunge and dive in, the abstractionists may find it wanting.

So when R.K.Sriramkumar plays "Sarasiruha punnaga champaka paatala kuravaka karaveera mallika sugandha" twenty times with KAP's strategic taps, the rasika is getting readied for "dharanivi oka paryaayamu dharmaatmuni". If you are complaining about only 1 instrument and sparse percussion, you are missing the boat.

[sankark]

Well said, asangeetha. I think @devan's characterization is pretty loose and therefore misleading.

Comparing classical and film is like comparing apples and oranges, a futile exercise.

Ain't that the truth.
....
....
In terms of the amount of abstraction that instrumental music represents, any of those western works are several orders of magnitude more abstract than a single Carnatic instrument playing a single melody of a very familiar vocal song, in a very vocal way, to the accompaniment of a percussion instrument. And yet Carnatic rasikas can't even handle that! I doubt if this can be good for a "classical" music. Even film and popular music fans have a better understanding of music as just sound. In CM, the violin accompaniment and percussion instruments alone may remain in the near future. Manual tamburas are already a minority.

Oh oh. Why affirm the oranges and apples there and then immediately go and compare/contrast CM with WM works? One is palAchuLai and another is strawberry. Or senbagam and tulip.

Now an artiste may (or a rasika like may) bemoan the lack of audience to such good/pristine/wonderful music. And I think that is our birthright too. But it isn't going to bring in folks.

Question is do you see this as a problem that can be "fixed"? Apparently Ravikiran does! And he exhorts people who can do something (anything) about it to do what they can. If Ilayaraja's statement was in response (and it may not have been), I see that in poor taste!

I don't know for sure if it is a problem. Seems tastes/instruments/compositional forms all have constantly evolved (and absorbed many non-native ideas/instruments) in this continuum that is called CM today (yAzh pOchu vInai vandhadhu dum dum dum, vInai (almost) pOchu enna (mandolin? guitar? sax?) vandhadhu dum dum dum, prabhandam/thAyam pOchu kriti/kIrtanai vandhadhu dum dum dum, padam/javali (mostly) pOchu abhang/gavlan/bhajan/whatnot vandhadhu dum dum dum . So the CM of 5 decades hence could be totally diff to what it is today except in name?

Unless there is a quantitative way to measure % of population that was/is interested in CM (and within that % on vocal and instrumental, and within that % of stringed vs blown etc.) and how it has waxed or waned, it is all hand wringing and reams of qualitative how-many-angels-can-dance-on-the-head-of-a-pin discussions.

More power to Ravikiran if he has some ideas and they succeed in sustaining the current tradition.

[sureshvv]

Question is do you see this as a problem that can be "fixed"? Apparently Ravikiran does! And he exhorts people who can do something (anything) about it to do what they can. If Ilayaraja's statement was in response (and it may not have been), I see that in poor taste!

I don't know for sure if it is a problem. Seems tastes/instruments/compositional forms all have constantly evolved (and absorbed many non-native ideas/instruments) in this continuum that is called CM today (yAzh pOchu vInai vandhadhu dum dum dum, vInai (almost) pOchu enna (mandolin? guitar? sax?) vandhadhu dum dum dum, prabhandam/thAyam pOchu kriti/kIrtanai vandhadhu dum dum dum, padam/javali (mostly) pOchu abhang/gavlan/bhajan/whatnot vandhadhu dum dum dum . So the CM of 5 decades hence could be totally diff to what it is today except in name?

Great! You are absolutely right. But don't you see what has remained the same?

Unless there is a quantitative way to measure % of population that was/is interested in CM (and within that % on vocal and instrumental, and within that % of stringed vs blown etc.) and how it has waxed or waned, it is all hand wringing and reams of qualitative how-many-angels-can-dance-on-the-head-of-a-pin discussions.

Actually Tamil film music used to predominantly Carnatic. I don't know if that means that a larger % of the population was able to appreciate it then. But anyways, forget how it used to be. True to the "yaam petra inbam" sentiment, Ravikiran feels that with some small steps, younger minds can be taught to appreciate and contribute to this art form.

More power to Ravikiran if he has some ideas and they succeed in sustaining the current tradition.

Agree 100%. To say, "let them come if they want" reeks of high-brow arrogance.

[sankark]

Agree 100%. To say, "let them come if they want" reeks of high-brow arrogance.

Beyond a point, it is "let them come if they want". And that certainly isn't arrogance.

[uday_shankar]

it may come off as a put down

"may come off" is right .

Many family members of the earlier generation were exceptional rasikas as well as gifted musicians themselves.. my late father in law was one of the most musically gifted people I know, could sing like ARI and GNB, play the tabla and sing at the same time, play the khanjira and mridangam, all by lakshya. Yet he couldn't relate as keenly as vocal music to melodic instruments except nagasvaram music... He certainly had an open mind to the occasional Hindustani (with some snark attached ) and was very keen to under jazz when we went to New Orleans, etc. etc...

Vina Balachander once related how he once took Musiri to a recital by Yehudi Menuhin only to be disturbed by Musiri whispering periodically into his ear "Chandru, ara ara nu arukkaraane, aathuku polama" !

My own (late) dad, another musically gifted person if ever there was one, held similar views about some English violinist practising next to his Loyola College hostel . This at the same time that I was avidly devouring Bach (going just by the tonal appeal, not some high brow analysis of counterpoint) on Madras B radio station!

I've also had relatives who were militantly Carnatic who handn't listened to anything else but died believing it to be the most superior music in the world. I may hold that view too in the sense that I love to resurrect an old wholesome feeling by listening to recording of say, SSI LGJ UKS. But I think it is probably a rekindling of the memory of a pure reaction at a young age. Old Hindi film songs I heard in my childhood do it too...

It is good to be contented and OK to be incurious about the wide world out there with other systems and other reckonings of aesthetics but it sounds comical when it is unilaterally asserted that one's own reckoning is the "most superior". It is also poignantly wrong (apples, oranges, etc)

[sankark]

it may come off as a put down

"may come off" is right .

It is good to be contented and OK to be incurious about the wide world out there with other systems and other reckonings of aesthetics but it sounds comical when it is unilaterally asserted that one's own reckoning is the "most superior". It is also poignantly wrong.

Ignorance is bliss!

[sureshvv]

It is good to be contented and OK to be incurious about the wide world out there with other systems and other reckonings of aesthetics but it sounds comical when it is unilaterally asserted that one's own reckoning is the "most superior". It is also poignantly wrong (apples, oranges, etc)

Where did you read "most superior"? I don't remember anyone making that assertion.

But rasikas is mainly about Carnatic Music anyway. So cut us a break

[uday_shankar]

Where did you read "most superior"? I don't remember anyone making that assertion.

please read the earlier paragraph. Everything doesnt have to be about you that needs to be countered. What part of "I've had relatives, etc" is not clear ?

[sureshvv]

Aah.. your dead relatives! Got it. Thought you were putting some of us in our place.

[uday_shankar]

Vilyanur Ramachandran, flamboyant neuroscientist from Madras, who teaches in San Diego, perhaps a Nobel winner sometime soon, has also made the assertion in some interview I read years back that CM is the most superior music in the world... Will try to dig it out... "Dead relatives" have an echo from a powerful contemporary source...

[sureshvv]

Its like My mom's the best or My dad can beat up yours!

[harimau]

It is good to be contented and OK to be incurious about the wide world out there with other systems and other reckonings of aesthetics but it sounds comical when it is unilaterally asserted that one's own reckoning is the "most superior". It is also poignantly wrong (apples, oranges, etc)

Whoa, whoa! Hold it right there!

It is this kind of thinking that inspired my pallavi "Mukkanikku Eedaagumaa Bheri" so don't diss it.

[mahavishnu]

I preferred the older version "Aha bheri, mukkanikku samanam aguma?"
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=21770&p=246871&hil ... ri#p246871

[shankarank]

I am amazed how we switch context from a discussion at a system wide level, to individual tastes and preferences of listeners! Many organizations will host chitraveena because of Ravikiran's stature, not that their members wanted to hear chitraveena.

Many parents would step into a Carnatic event, lets say Cleveland, just because their child participates, for the first time in their lives. The first ever event they would hear is their child singing/playing in the competition. One such parent's family now hosts exclusively competitions in Dallas.

The discussion I think should be about how the art form is viewed by/projected to the public at large irrespective of whether they hear the music or not. What should be the dominant narrative? That Carnatic music is about Bhakti and vEdanta because of lyrics? So what happens when there are no lyrics involved like in instruments? Or should it be more broader?

All of these are relevant questions today, because the public is being lead to this music as "art" not sampradaya - although that is in the back of their minds. But the way "sampradaya" indirectly is taken by them is : "it is a systematic/teachable art".

We have to come to terms with the fact that Carnatic music is now more than it's performers and listeners!

This is a trick adopted by TMK as well. He will hurl accusations at the group that practices today as a group. On the side he wants to go, he will avoid all discussions about groups and their politics, but emphasize individualism and make a ringing declaration that CM should reach all and it is up to the individual to take it or leave it.

[shankarank]

Ok I will cover an individual story of my Aunt and her tastes. She a graduate of Madurai Sathguru Sangeetha samajam when greats like Sankara Sivam were principals. Got married and resided in Chennai but don't think she went to concerts that much - too tough of middle class Women those days.

When I met her sometime during my College days , a mention of TNS would spark an immediate reaction - yeah "anda Mridangam" vidvan's disciple!! So she already boxed him. She gets transferred to Bangalore, and I pay a visit. We discuss local vidvans M.S Sheela etc. Then she would come out with a statement: "whatever you say nothing would sound like a Thanjavur Siksha!". She is now this discerning rasika.

Later back in Chennai - retired life, I met her outside P.S Swamy Sabha, she was coming out of a morning Music Academy concert raving about O.S Arun.

It is not just : lOkO binna ruci. Even mAnushO binna ruci.

[rajeshnat]

Later back in Chennai - retired life, I met her outside P.S Swamy Sabha, she was coming out of a morning Music Academy concert raving about O.S Arun.

Shankarank,
Possibly your aunt must have got overdoze of your 10 liner personal emails with 2 url link hand grenades. She would have said I raved OS Arun ,so that you donot talk about Sanskriti to her as such OS Arun has so much sanskriti in his music.

[sureshvv]

shankarank... that is you in 10/15 years