Inauguration of MA season

[kvchellappa]

That is one of the few posts I could understand and so appreciate it for that.

[arasi]

That poor aunt! Hope the next step is not to send her to an analyst lOkO bhinna ruchi has been hurled around here for so long, we don't need to be surprised any more by preferences or change of preferences in a listener. What's the yard stick, by the way?
If we still stick to the golden oldies, we cannot profess to be CM lovers who want to see it grow and spread its way into the future. Varied tastes make it happen...

[shankarank]

shankarank... that is you in 10/15 years

You have so much a confidence in the current crop of front line musicians! . That they will make it happen! Thought CM depended on the patronage of cotton heads! Bad news!

If we still stick to the golden oldies

I never expected her or anybody to stick to Golden oldies, nor chastising her for raving on O.S Arun - but if she had only added few other mainstream ones from the YACM legend - I would have been happier then!

OS Arun has so much sanskriti in his music

Eagerly waiting Rajeshnat review this season. Or you mean to say you never spot Sanskriti in music ever By the way his candana carcita in beat style rap is a hit in dances - bharatanATyam tail enders I mean.

[sureshvv]

shankarank... that is you in 10/15 years

You have so much a confidence in the current crop of front line musicians! . That they will make it happen! Thought CM depended on the patronage of cotton heads! Bad news!

Nothing to so with musicians. It is the human condition. And not even you, with your vast encyclopedic knowledge of everything from Abhirama Battar to Zorastrianism is exempt

[Nick H]

your vast encyclopedic knowledge of everything from Abhirama Battar

Hmmm... Abhirama, Abraham... Did anyone ever see them in the same room together?

[sankark]

your vast encyclopedic knowledge of everything from Abhirama Battar

Hmmm... Abhirama, Abraham... Did anyone ever see them in the same room together?

Tch tch. For an advaitin, abhirama and abraham are but different manifestations of the one and only brahamam It is everywhere!

[Nick H]

Touche Touche!

[sureshvv]

Aren't you at Peyaazhvar sannidhi? Signal seems good there!

[shankarank]

your vast encyclopedic knowledge of everything from Abhirama Battar

Hmmm... Abhirama, Abraham... Did anyone ever see them in the same room together?

Tch tch. For an advaitin, abhirama and abraham are but different manifestations of the one and only brahamam It is everywhere!

Nick has more clues than you do

[sureshvv]

Hmmm... Abhirama, Abraham... Did anyone ever see them in the same room together?

To add to the melee, there is also Abraham Pandithar. See, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Pandithar

May be Sanjay can do this next year!

[shankarank]

Reading that Abraham Pandithar is truly an Indian Christian! He made a deity out of Jesus - which I am not sure is what Christianity is about. From Indian point of you Jesus is about his ideas - he is a preceptor or Maharishi.

But certainly some of his compositions , especially the de-mo composition is not in conformance with Indian thought - i.e. chiding Money as to what all bad it can do. We worship wealth also.

As regards his community, it brings out the fact that Barbers at that time were trained in medicine as well (maruttuvar) - the vaiSya jAti stree vESha dharaNam of muttusvAmi diskhitar also refers to the midwife from that community - a.k.a. in Sachi's terms Mrs Mathrubhootham!!

Incidentally a related community were [:cough:] [:cough:] custodians of music as well!!

We .. will get squirmy mentioning his Caste.. but glorify the fact that he is a Christian!!

[sureshvv]

All irrelevant really!

[shankarank]

Hey you started or triggered the digression! And digression becomes the constant theme threading itself!

[sureshvv]

Yes I did. Your post seemed to be in dissent of my idea for an Abraham Pandithar special (or may be I am reacting defensively as I find myself doing sometimes).
None of your points take away from his contributions, so I feel justified in recommending the tribute again.

[Nick H]

Western medical history... Barbers were surgeons.

If you read the Master and Commander series of novels, one of the heroes, Maturing, objects to being called a surgeon: he is a physician, with academic traning in medicine.

[harimau]

Western medical history... Barbers were surgeons.

If you read the Master and Commander series of novels, one of the heroes, Maturing, objects to being called a surgeon: he is a physician, with academic traning in medicine.

And surgeons in the U.K. object to the title "Doctor". They want to be addressed as "Mister".

[Sachi_R]

Shankarank,
The actual quote from Kalidasa is
भिन्नरुचिर्हि लोकः It is from Raghuvamsha 6-30 describing how Indumati in her Swayamvara passed by quite suitable princes merely out of her personal choice.
The हि in the middle translates as "after all"

In Samskrita, lokah means people or men. That implies in this context individual differences.

To really understand this Kalidasa statement, one should accompany a lady to a big saree shop and observe how women flit from saree to saree and someone's discard is someone else's delight.

[Nick H]

And surgeons in the U.K. object to the title "Doctor". They want to be addressed as "Mister".

And indeed they are, yes. That is the present-day manifestation of the history,

[shankarank]

one should accompany a lady to a big saree shop and observe how women flit from saree to saree and someone's discard is someone else's delight.

You are in the spatial dimension ... going from people to people.. I stated the same truth in the time dimension (for a single person) . We are orthogonal to each other but still the truth is the same !

[shankarank]

Yes I did. Your post seemed to be in dissent of my idea for an Abraham Pandithar special
....None of your points take away from his contributions

Surely we should have one. What I said was, intended to be about us, than him. Having a tribute will allow us to say more about ourselves!

[kvchellappa]

Nice convergence from MA inauguration to sarees. Even a staunch rasika posted how the saree of a singer was appreciated by another person. Music is incidental.

[sureshvv]

Reading that Abraham Pandithar is truly an Indian Christian! He made a deity out of Jesus - which I am not sure is what Christianity is about. From Indian point of you Jesus is about his ideas - he is a preceptor or Maharishi.

But certainly some of his compositions , especially the de-mo composition is not in conformance with Indian thought - i.e. chiding Money as to what all bad it can do. We worship wealth also.

As regards his community, it brings out the fact that Barbers at that time were trained in medicine as well (maruttuvar) - the vaiSya jAti stree vESha dharaNam of muttusvAmi diskhitar also refers to the midwife from that community - a.k.a. in Sachi's terms Mrs Mathrubhootham!!

Incidentally a related community were [:cough:] [:cough:] custodians of music as well!!

We .. will get squirmy mentioning his Caste.. but glorify the fact that he is a Christian!!

What I said was, intended to be about us, than him.

Think it is more about you than us !

[shankarank]

So you want to be in denial. Fine!!

Nice convergence from MA inauguration to sarees. Even a staunch rasika posted how the saree of a singer was appreciated by another person. Music is incidental.

To sit through the sound of music for few hours to appreciate the saree is in itself, progress. Sarees are worn otherwise everywhere else.

[sureshvv]

So you want to be in denial. Fine!!

Your post is so full of gross inaccuracies & sweeping generalizations based on wrong understanding and invalid extrapolation.

He made a deity out of Jesus - which I am not sure is what Christianity is about. From Indian point of you Jesus is about his ideas - he is a preceptor or Maharishi.

There is no ONE thing that Christianity is about, just as there is no ONE thing Hinduism is about. There are enough varieties of Christians, all equally valid, including the variety of Abraham Pandithar.

He could also be an "avataram" of Vishnu from the Indian point. Somehow this has eluded you.

But certainly some of his compositions , especially the de-mo composition is not in conformance with Indian thought - i.e. chiding Money as to what all bad it can do. We worship wealth also.

What is this Indian thought that you are the self nominated expert about? Why is his thought any less Indian than yours?

the vaiSya jAti stree vESha dharaNam of muttusvAmi diskhitar also refers to the midwife from that community

The vaiSys jAti stree in the kriti was not a professional midwife. Where did you get that?

We .. will get squirmy mentioning his Caste.. but glorify the fact that he is a Christian!!

Nobody here was glorifying his being a Christian. Only you seem to be bent on vilifying/glorifying based on these irrelevant titbits. What was being glorified was that he was a 19th century Carnatic vaggeyakara.

[Nick H]

Add according to taste: "all equally invalid."

We all have our prejudices. Mine are far worse, if that is the right word, than most of the other posters' here!

[Sachi_R]

JOB OPENING FOR SHANKARANK

Mr. Shankarank may kindly take up the job of the news anchor of Times Now HD. They are having a severe complex trying to fill the place vacated by Arnab Goswami who has now set up rival shop at Republic.

Why Mr. Shankarank? He has strong facts and somewhat strong opinions and an extremely strong debating style coupled with an imagination that resembles an exploding galaxy scattering astral debris in all directions.

[shankarank]

the vaiSya jAti stree vESha dharaNam of muttusvAmi diskhitar also refers to the midwife from that community

The vaiSys jAti stree in the kriti was not a professional midwife. Where did you get that?

The fact that this culture deified several roles including that of mid-wife is how I look at it. So I see it as a difference from the ONE GOD concept.

But certainly some of his compositions , especially the de-mo composition is not in conformance with Indian thought - i.e. chiding Money as to what all bad it can do. We worship wealth also.

What is this Indian thought that you are the self nominated expert about? Why is his thought any less Indian than yours?

So my criticism of his de-mo composition is based on that. Indian philosophies , even when they critique , focus on the human thought and desire. Devil is never externalized to external objects.

Nobody here was glorifying his being a Christian.

Well the general flow of the digression and how he was brought in kind of indicates that to me. You don't consider that people can see beyond what is written? Carnatic music has so many vAggEya karas - why him now?

[sankark]

Get the butter popcorn. Melted cheese dip too, please

[rshankar]

vaiSya jAti strI in the MD composition refers to the mother of the woman in labor- hence the name tAyum Anavar or mAtRbhUtESwara.
Since it celebrates mothers, why stop with midwifery? How about cook, cleaner, general dogsbody, friend, philosopher, arbiter, boss etc...

[RSR]

Tomorrow is Christmas Eve. 'The great soul who divided ,indivisible TIME into BC and AC. '('vakupadaatha kaalatthai vakutthalithha perumakanaar' ) 's Birth day remembrance all over the world. The Bible is the basis of all demands for Justice and Equality and even of Socialism and Marxism according to Barathy. The Bengal renaissance owes not a little to Christianity . Etymologists and historians cannot but wonder at many similarities between the incidents in the life of Christ and Krushna . Herod in the place of Kamsa. The river yamuna paving the way clear to Vasudeva. While the Bagavatham is pure delight and call to fight injustice , the Bible preaches that Evil cannot be won by violence. Neither glorify Violence. Both preach Universal brotherhood. ... Liberation Theology merges the teachings of Christ and of Gita Acharyan. Let us celebrate both. Christmas and Janmaashtami. Enough of ill-informed attacks on one of the noblest and most sublime teachings .. Gospel according to St.Mathew.. every word there loved by real scholars and students of English Literature and Social reforms. Just as Gita . We are too small people to judge.

[shankarank]

I am not attacking Christ at all - you have to read it correctly. I am only critiquing the establishment of the Church and it's dogmas. By all means celebrate him! Merry Christmas!

[sureshvv]

vaiSya jAti strI in the MD composition refers to the mother of the woman in labor- hence the name tAyum Anavar or mAtRbhUtESwara.

Actually it is not the mother. The legend is that Kaveri was in spate and a marooned woman was in labor with no help around when a total stranger (in the form of a Marwari lady) came and helped the woman deliver. I don't remember the story exactly but I think she arrived by boat and rescued the lady is distress and took her back to get medical attention. It is all illustrated with murals in the temple.

shankarank, as he does, made up parts of the story from his own wild imagination.

@shankarank... your post above where you have attempted to quote me is full of mis-attributions. You are putting words in my mouth. Please correct!

[rshankar]

Suresh: check this out for the story under the notes section...my explanation is correct - hence the name tAyum Anavar: one who became a mother as well.
http://guru-guha.blogspot.com/2008/08/d ... a.html?m=1

[shankarank]

mis-attributions. ... Please correct!

Fixed.

shankarank, as he does, made up parts of the story from his own wild imagination.

Your reading is the standard reading of how philology is done in the West. Child stories/Legends/myths/folklore. In an age where sAhitya is being scanned for various social issues and commented in The Hindu, it becomes all the more necessary to develop the home-grown perspective. Mother / Mid-wife - the role is interchangeable. If anybody takes a motherhood pre-natal class in the West, you will learn how they promote home births away from the Hospitals and epidurals showing videos of South American native cultures having the natural Birth in their Bath Tubs.

In this day and age however, the only people who can try that are the strong willed people of the West, with their stronger constitutions. We have made our Women weak through mal-nutrition!

[shankarank]

http://guru-guha.blogspot.com/2008/08/d ... a.html?m=1

mAsa varsha pakshOtsava vibhavaM

Describes a cosmology. Somebody wondered what mAsOtsvam is - that might be the mAsa SivarAtri. pakshOtsavam is pradOSham. Is one of them assigned as the mAsa SivarAtri? varShOtsavam is mahA Sivaratri.

The story the stala purANa itself is the local cosmology of the place.

More wild imagination - now related to the siddha medical folklore. Many have lost touch with their elders - so it takes an actor, not quite a celebrity ( as some big celebrities have spoiled their health!) to say this now:

நாள் இரண்டு , வாரம் இரண்டு , மாதம் இரண்டு , வருடம் இரண்டு
(twice a day, twice a weak oil bath, twice a month, twice a year is colon cleansing!)

https://youtu.be/1Cmxaa-J9G4?t=94

[sureshvv]

Suresh: check this out for the story under the notes section...my explanation is correct - hence the name tAyum Anavar: one who became a mother as well.
http://guru-guha.blogspot.com/2008/08/d ... a.html?m=1

Thank you. Some of it overlaps with my version derived from gazing at the murals of the temple. I do have a word of caution with the "lord taking the form of the mother". I don't think this was meant literally.

[sureshvv]

Your reading is the standard reading of how philology is done in the West.

You need to get out of this East/West dichotomy. It is eating you up

Mother / Mid-wife - the role is interchangeable.

So now Mother's caste is interchangeable too?

We have made our Women weak through mal-nutrition!

Speak just for yourself.

[shankarank]

East/West Dichotomy is the whole point about retaining a distinctiveness of our traditions. So if it eats me up let it!

I don't know why you have to get obsessed with Caste - when I am talking of a role!

If you don't have material to provide , you don't have to speak for anybody including yourself!

[sureshvv]

East/West Dichotomy is the whole point about retaining a distinctiveness of our traditions. So if it eats me up let it!

Most things that matter rise past this dichotomy. Will help your writing if you see that.

I don't kanow why you have to get obsessed with Caste - when I am talking of a role!

In a previous post, you deduced the profession of the woman. You have moved to "role". Good improvement. Keep it up!

If you don't have material to provide , you don't have to speak for anybody including yourself!

Will let you in on a secret. The material you provide & the inferences you make from it are really only telling about yourself.

[shankarank]

Etymologists and historians cannot but wonder at many similarities between the incidents in the life of Christ and Krushna . Herod in the place of Kamsa. The river yamuna paving the way clear to Vasudeva.

The pagans already helped do this. They deified Christ as according to an Orthodox Christian, it is unknown when he was born. But that is not an issue. வருடம் இரண்டு - twice a year we get a Solstice and an equinox. So in a paganish way , his Birth and Death were identified near those times. So when he resurrected ( which is re-incarnation) , even he did raise above the differences between the East and West. Since we don't question Rishi , or nadi moolam, it is perfectly fine for us. He can be compared to KRShNA, Yamuna or Godavari - no problems.

Merry Christmas to all!

[RSR]

#90-> 'rise' above the difference..( not 'raise') Some people are still living in the days of French and American revolution of superficial 'rationalism;. and missing a great lot. Missing the wood for the trees. Bad trait. I would recommend Will Durant classic 'Caeser and Christ, and 'Our Oriental civilizations'. .from his great series Story of our civilization. Once begun to be read, it will keep us off from other 'activities' for they are big tomes of scholarship and labour. And if one loves the English language, he can find pages after pages of lovely alliterative prose. It all depends. Of all the verses in Valmiki, one has to choose a passage where it seems to say, 'sudra is meant to be beaten. !. What amazing 'scholarship' , memory and cleverness! .May be interpolations. aplenty. . Myths may have some hazy memories of the past. The BEST film on Jesus was created by an Italian Communist with deepest reverence. 'The Gospel according to St.Mathew'. Even the Vatican was captivated by the filming. Nothing good ever came from the land of Yanks and its neo-hippies.

[shankarank]

I should have instead said he was raised above (on ) the differences! That's fine I don't want to hurt believers. All that the scholarship has produced is neo-elites. If we cannot explain the personal experiences of Grand Mothers in native village hospitals who were asked to keep aside "idols" by the nurses there, then whats the point in reading all of that.

[Nick H]

(The best film on Jesus is Russian. But don't bother about the film, just read the book... The Master and Margarita by M Bulgakov.

The story of the execution of Jesus is just part of the weave of the story of the Devil visiting Moscow.

Amazing book. The author was, apparently, a devout Christian. But I still helped to confirm that I'd rather have their devil than their Jesus.
Of course, it's fiction. Like the Bible)

Innauguration.... Long since forgotten. Maybe this thread will still be rambling on by the time of the next one!

[shankarank]

Nothing good ever came from the land of Yanks and its neo-hippies.

https://swarajyamag.com/ideas/all-we-ne ... y-centrism

Read Einstein's dialogues!

[RSR]

#94-> 1_ Many of the famous scientists and thinkers of the Yankee pigsty came from Europe. especially the cream of Jewish Intelligentsia from Europe. .consequent on the antisemitism of Europe......It is amusing to hear that Einstein belonged to USA. ! Funny! .,,,Inviting you to read the essay .Albert Einstein, Radical: A Political Profile
https://monthlyreview.org/2005/05/01/al ... ......read the relevant para on Einstein on Socialism....in https://sites.google.com/site/rsrpages/
2) Swami Ramakrishna was a mystic and he has personally experimented with all the major religions including Christianity. and has narrated the truth of his religious experience. . Swami Ranaganadhananda is correct. He is not equating the Church and the Gospel. People who quote Einstein on the Historicity of Jesus, approvingly, ...would they accept his plea for Socialism? How many people know that Einstein was a Marxist and a Leninist at that? .. .. 3) Jawaharlal Nehru took the correct stand on the Jewish question, even better than that of Marx on 'Jewish Question'...and the Bard's gem 'The Merchant of Venice' speaks eloquently and in immortal poetic prose of Celestial Music. To clinch the issue Read Bertrand Russell 's 'Mysticism and Logic,in the book of essays bearing the same title. and remember that this was the Russell who wrote 'Why I am not a Christian'. ..... also ..Half-baked materialists and 'scientists' cannot understand let lone judge Great mystics. Sufi poets and our trinity. Have you ever read Dostoevsky;s 'Bothers Karamazaov? '.. Are you able to empathize with Father Zosima and Alyosha? Just a the essence of CM cannot be 'explained by lec-dem' , it has to be experienced and it requires humility and practice. Fortunate are the FEW who can experience that bliss. No regular reader of a fascist rag like Swarajya can be made to see the light.

[RSR]

@93-Nick H...Talking about the Russians in the period of the great revolutions. Have you heard of the famous poet 'symbolist' ..Alexander Blok. " The Twelve is a controversial long poem by Aleksandr Blok. Written early in 1918, the poem was one of the first poetic responses to the October Revolution of 1917....."The central question at the heart of Twelve is a relevant and abiding one: why does Jesus Christ appear at all in this poem, and why is he leading the Bolshevik Red Guard, who are atheists and murderers and ruffians? Blok, who was not a religious man, was often asked that question. He answered that he was himself unhappy with Christ’s appearance in the poem. He found Christ effeminate and unsatisfying, but his creative will told him it had to be Christ. Blok added that it was frightening that it was still Christ, when there should be “an Other” to lead them. Scholars are still writing articles today about the meaning of Christ’s appearance at the end of Twelve. The symbolism of this powerful poem remains alive and well in the Russian psyche as Russia, once again, is hard at work reinventing itself. "Crack ~ crack ~ crack!
Crack ~ crack ~ crack!
... So they march with sovereign tread ...
Behind them limps the hungry dog,
and wrapped in wild snow at their head
carrying a blood-red flag ~
soft-footed where the blizzard swirls,
invulnerable where bullets crossed ~
crowned with a crown of snowflake pearls,
a flowery diadem of frost,
ahead of them goes Jesus Christ.'
https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-twelve/

[shankarank]

.would they accept his plea for Socialism?

Socialism in a sense has been ingrained into the U.S Welfare state! Socialism that holds back progress of the capable - I don't see how I can accept that. A centrally mandated and controlled scheme is not workable. It is a different matter that countries which were once Socialist will face transition hurdles and may take steps like a Socialist regime.

The thing is , we have elites whose forefathers went from South to all places in North ( Mumbai, Delhi, Nagpur , Jamshedpur, Kolkata) and to the U.S who would call Indians racists! And also call Yankees no good!

But they have not been to China and Russia!

Socialism is Einstein's opinion. His views on Christianity is based on his actual experience as a Jew. So you pick which has more credence.

[RSR]

@97->! USA a Socialist state! . In what dictionary? your own? Read any good books ever?

[shankarank]

You seem to operate only on labels and not on substance. Is China a Socialist state?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/30/worl ... rants.html

Imagine how much compassion the Slum clearance board in India and it's people have - contrary to what the slum dog millionaire type of movies portray ? The dwellers may rent it and go back to live in the slums!

[shankarank]

China is implementing the good old VarNa system based on guNas through AI and Data Science - what could not be achieved through human means due to Marxist subversion - is now possible through machines:

http://time.com/magazine/south-pacific/ ... h-pacific/

A good social credit score could lead to a promotion, a raise, a better apartment, admission to a good school, access to state-approved dating websites, better stores, better doctors, the right to travel, a more generous pension and important opportunities for your children....

The plan’s ultimate purpose, according to Chinese officials, is to “allow the trustworthy to roam everywhere under heaven while making it hard for the discredited to take a single step.”