Chakkani rajamargamu question

[jayaram]

This should be an easy one for the learned rasikas here:

Quick question on this composition of Tyagaraja. (I was discussing this kriti with a friend, and this question came up.)

The anupallavi reads:
Chikkani Paalu Meegada yundaga
Cheeyanu Gangaasaagara Mele
The meaning that I have seen for Gangaasaagaramu above is Toddy! How did this meaning come about??

[mahakavi]

Well, some folks want to glorify the intoxicants. If you call toddy as gangAsAgaram it gets uplifted (no pun intended!). Some of us call Chivas Regal as Shiva's Regal, just to justify our partaking of it (after sandyAvandanam, of course) in the name of bhakti!!!!!!!

[drshrikaanth]

In kannaDa also gangAsAgara has the meaning of toddy. I dont remember the origins.

[shishya]

The reference to gangasagaram is to intend pun... Just like somebody using extremely foul language is referred to be talking in "sanskrit."

[mahakavi]

.....or "French"

[jayaram]

I sort of guessed it was a colloquialism, but am surprised to learn that Saint Tyagaraja could have used Ganga's name in such a manner. I would have thought Ganges was much more sacred in his time than it is now. (I suppose today's ganga-jalam is much filthier than toddy! )

And - has Tyagaraja used similar colloquialisms in other kritis of his?

[arasi]

Haven't you heard of onions being referred to as sALigrAma and cigarettes as agni hOtram in paribhAshA?

[shishya]

Jayaram,

This is how I interpret the use of proxies for nasty words: The person is too uncomfortable saying the nasty word so (s)he looks for a diagonally opposite word to mean it. On a lighter note, for people who are used to drinking alcohol, I guess it is more sacred than ganga sagaram.

[mahakavi]

Jayaram,

This is how I interpret the use of proxies for nasty words: The person is too uncomfortable saying the nasty word so (s)he looks for a diagonally opposite word to mean it. On a lighter note, for people who are used to drinking alcohol, I guess it is more sacred than ganga sagaram.

I think it is an acceptable form of usage. There is a Thamizh grammar provision for such usage. I don't quite recall it. Is it "edirmaRaip peyareccam"? arasi??

[drshrikaanth]

iDakkar aDakkal.

[mahakavi]

iDakkar aDakkal.

There you go! Thanks, drs.

[jayaram]

Any other similar examples from Tyagaraja kritis?

Btw, the reason I raised this question originally was: my friend asked me for the meaning of the song, and I [with my limited knowledge of Telugu] interpreted this word as 'ganga-ocean' thinking Tyagaraja meant it literally - but it didn't make much sense in the context of the song!

[sindhu]

Maha kavi,

The tamil grammer provision you are referring to is

' vEtRu poruL vaippaNi' , as in ' ammi midappa-surai aazha'

[mahakavi]

sindhu:
Isn't "vERRupporuL vaippaNi" similar to oxymoron (e.g., deafening silence)although not identical? It is a long time since high school Thamizh grammar for me.

[MaheshS]

iDakkar aDakkal.

There you go! Thanks, drs.

Hmm I was under the impression that iDakkar aDakkal meant "potruvadhu pol thootruvadhum, thootruvadhu pol potruvadhum" i.e insulting while using the words for praise and vice-versa. I think this applies when used on persons or things, not the way the bard uses it in Chakkani raja ...

[drshrikaanth]

Hmm I was under the impression that iDakkar aDakkal meant "potruvadhu pol thootruvadhum, thootruvadhu pol potruvadhum" i.e insulting while using the words for praise and vice-versa. I think this applies when used on persons or things, not the way the bard uses it in Chakkani raja ...

Nope. It is the tamizh term for euphemism. Such as "kAl kazhuvi varudal", etc.

[drshrikaanth]

potruvadhu pol thootruvadhum, thootruvadhu pol potruvadhum" i.e insulting while using the words for praise and vice-versa. I ...

I think this is called "edirmaRai ilakkaNai or viparItalatcaNai". viparItArtha in skt( virOdhAbhAsa is the correct term I think). It is one of the alankAras

[drshrikaanth]

In this particular kRti, I think T is using neither iDakkar aDakkal nor anyother alannkAra but just using a flowery term for drinking/toddy.

[vgvindan]

In regad to gangA sAgara, my view point is as under - though this may seem far fetched -
In all the books, this word has been taken as ‘toddy’ – a colloquial usage as stated in the book of TKG. However, no such word is found in any dictionary. In Sanskrit ‘tAla’ and tAlagarbha’ means toddy; in Telugu, ‘ITa’, ‘kaLLu’, ‘tATikaLLu’ and ‘nIrA’ are the words meaning toddy. Though the following explanation may be far-fetched, yet it may not be out of place.
gaGga and all other rivers are considered to be wives of sAgara – varuNA. VAruNI is varuNA's female Energy (personified either as his wife or as his daughter, produced at the time of churning of the ocean and regarded as the goddess of spirituous liquor; vAruNI also means ‘a particular kind of spirit’ (prepared from hogweed mixed with the juice of the date or palm and distilled) or ‘any spirituous liquor’. Therefore, instead of using the vAruNI to mean toddy, zrI tyAgarAja might have used ‘gaGgA sAgara’.
The word vAruNI appears in zrImad-bhAgavaM in many places. It also appears in lalitA sahasranAmaM – ‘vAruNI mada vihvalAyai nama:’ meaning ‘Salutations to Her who is intoxicated with vAruNI (the wine of spiritual bliss)’ (333).

[drshrikaanth]

In all the books, this word has been taken as ‘toddy’ – a colloquial usage as stated in the book of TKG. However, no such word is found in any dictionary.

I can tell you it is definitely found in the kannaDa dictionary. I do not have any of the big telugu dictionaries to hand. (Not the kannaDa one for that matter but I know that for sure)

[sr_iyer]

I remember reading somewhere that this connotation for the word perhaps originated as a regional (Tanjavur) colloquism due to the delinquencies of one Gangasagara Bhatt.

[drshrikaanth]

I remember reading somewhere that this connotation for the word perhaps originated as a regional (Tanjavur) colloquism due to the delinquencies of one Gangasagara Bhatt.

That would not explain the word in the kannaDa dictionary. There are often colourful theories about flowery expressions. Not necessarily true though.

[sr_iyer]

After my last post, I found the reference in a book by Prof William Jackson.

Quote from "Tyagaraja - Life and Lyrics" - William Jackson - Oxford University Press

The reference is to Gangasagara Bhatt of Tanjore court, a toddy tippler about whom stories were in circulation in Tyagaraja's time. Toddy came to be called Gangasagara.

I do not know about the word's provenance in kannaDa.

[jayaram]

Thank you very much, sr_iyer. That should settle the issue, I guess.
(wonder if this Mr Bhatt makes an appearance in any other kritis of the bard.)

[coolkarni]

http://www.thehindu.com/fr/2006/05/26/s ... 290300.htm

However, one would like to differ from Pran's contention that alcohol did not destroy the singing ability of Saigal. Pran has quoted G.N. Joshi who had worked as senior executive of HMV and also authored "Down Memory Lane", a unique recollection of his memories while recording the great masters of his time. Joshi had written that Saigal would need six rehearsals interspersed with brief sips of alcohol and the voice would become "mellower" with each rehearsal.

KL Saigals death anniversary falls on Jan 18th.
a small and nice track - such a mellow voice...
http://download.yousendit.com/17505DE85E65B08D

and ofcourse the final judgement can be found here.
In Saigals own words.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2005/200501 ... /main3.htm

He sighed, "Naushad Ali, if only you had convinced me earlier. If alcohol had not consumed me I could have given the world so much more joy through my songs".

[ramakriya]

After my last post, I found the reference in a book by Prof William Jackson.

Quote from "Tyagaraja - Life and Lyrics" - William Jackson - Oxford University Press

The reference is to Gangasagara Bhatt of Tanjore court, a toddy tippler about whom stories were in circulation in Tyagaraja's time. Toddy came to be called Gangasagara.

I do not know about the word's provenance in kannaDa.

Few days ago, I was talking to one of my friends about gangAsAgara. I came to know that this word is in common use in tuLu, in a slightly modified form. The word used is gangAsAra, instead of gangAsAgara.

Even though this word appears in kannaDa dictionary, it is not in common usage. Now that it is commonly used in tuLunADu (West coast of Karnataka), quite far from tanjAvoor, I wonder if Gangasagara Bhatta used to be called because he was tapping toddy, and not the other way!

-Ramakriya

[mahakavi]

I wonder if Gangasagara Bhatta used to be called because he was tapping toddy, and not the other way!

-Ramakriya

If I understand correctly, Bhat/Bhatta name denotes a brahmin (?). If so he would not be tapping toddy (requiring climbing on the palm/coconut tree) which is only done by the semi-skilled labor class. But ablution of the alimentary canal with toddy (although unbecoming of the brahmins) and a consequent "spiritual" enhancement was possible without any effort and hence the contempt expressed by others.