raagam info for 'thavamum palitthathammA' by MSS

[RSR]

May I have the ragam(s) info of M.S.Subbulakshmi's vintage record ( on Barathy-lyrics by Kalki) "thavamum palitthathammA'.
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... thathammaa
Is it shanmugapriya?
there seems to be a ragam change in the subsequent stanza beginning with
'nAvalar pAvalar vAzhtthi ...'. etc
http://picosong.com/z7aS
am i wrong? if not, what is the second ragam?

[sureshvv]

there seems to be a ragam change in the subsequent stanza beginning with
'nAvalar pAvalar vAzhtthi ...'. etc

Raga changes once before that in the previous charanam. First Poorvikalyani and then keeravani.

[MaheshS]

I think it's Shanmugapriya, Purvi Kalyani & ?? [sounds so familiar but just doesn't come to me].

[Sachi_R]

Sirs
I hear shanmukhapriya, it changes to Purvikalyani at 1:35, and around 2:10 to Keeravani.

[RSR]

Respected Sirs, Thank you for the inputs. Can I take it as 1) Shanmugapriya beginning 2) poorvikalyani from 'buvanam viyanthida amuthath thamizhinil and finally 3) keervani from 'nAvalar pAvalar -> ?
---- MLV 'innamum sandhekap padalaamo' is keervani? right? Third one is of the same?
This plate I think was given sometime in 1946. Who would be the composer? S.V.VENKATARAMAN?

[MaheshS]

Respected Sirs, Thank you for the inputs. Can I take it as 1) Shanmugapriya beginning 2) poorvikalyani from 'buvanam viyanthida amuthath thamizhinil

No, that is Shanmugapriya.

Purvi Kalyani starts with -> Irar Suthandhiram [??] - The lyrics given in the page is incomplete.

Kiravani starts with -> Navalar Pavalar.

There is a mini-instrumental section that plays the raga between stanzas!

[RSR]

@6-> Mahesh ji, Thank you very much. I too felt that there is continuity of the ragam Shanmugapriya including the stanza 'buvanam viyanthida'.. Is it likely that the stanza beginning with 'nAvalar pAvalar..." is in Simmendra Madhyama? (rather than keervani'?

Irar Suthandhiram [??] - The lyrics given in the page is incomplete.

May I know if you are referring to the poem as it appears in
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... thathammaa
If so, may I trouble you to give me the stanza that is missing?
To the best of what I remember, what has been given there is the poem as sung by her in the record.
poorvikalyaNi would sound like panthuvarAli and I was wondering why there is no such shade in the song.
May I have your guidance?

[RSR]

May I request Dr.Pasupathy to give the missing stanza of Kalki's song on Barathy 'thavamum palitthathammA'. *if any)
Also Lakshman ji.

[RSR]

Lakshman ji had provided the full transliteratioin and ragam information. this afternoon. Thank you Sirs. The corrections have been made in the webpage. and Dr.Pasupathy has approved the version.
(many thanks to guidance by mahesh, sureshvv and sachi
15-2-2018
Lyrics transliteration contributed by Lakshman Ragde
tavamum phalittadammA. rAgamAlikA. Adi tALA. Kalki Krishnamurti.
(rAgA: SaNmukhapriyA)
P: tavamum phalittadammA namadu tAyin vilangugaL terittu vizhundana
A: bhuvanam viyandiDa amuda tamizhinil nava navamAi kavi aruLiya punitarin
(rAgA: pUrvikalyANi)
C1: vIra sutantiram vENDum enrAr ingu veTri uNDu namakku koTTugenrAr murasu
mAratar vAzhnda nam bhArata bhUmiyil mannar nAmE enru shonna bhAratiyin
(rAgA: kIravANi)
2: nAvalar pAvalar pOtri magizhndanar nAnilam engum nam kIrti uyarndadu
dEvarum mUvarum vAnil valam vandu shen-shork-kavinjnarai anjali sheidanar

[Ranganayaki]

@6-> Is it likely that the stanza beginning with 'nAvalar pAvalar..." is in Simmendra Madhyama? (rather than keervani'?

No, RSR, shuddha madhyamam is clearly present, it is Keeravani and not Simhendramadhyamam. The easiest madhyamam to point you to is in the instrumental intro to the keeravani section. It is an elongated ma at exactly 2:17. The swaras in that interlude are nsr-nsndpm--.

poorvikalyaNi would sound like panthuvarAli and I was wondering why there is no such shade in the song.

My view: The resemblance depends on the approach to the scale in developing the raga. Alapanas usually begin at the lower shadjam, working upwards. In that lower part of the scale (SRGMP) the two ragas are identical. But in the upper half of the scale, differences emerge: in pantuvarali, PDNS is exactly like mayamalavagowla, with a low daivatam (shuddha), while poorvikalyani only has PDS (or PDPS), with a daivatam like Mohanam and Kalyani. Nishadham is absent. The two uttarangams are quite different. Avarohana has all seven notes, but the DHAs are different.

The purvikalyani section of the song starts at pa, quickly touches dha, and remains mainly in the uttarangam. Forays into lower notes or into Tara sthayee notes are anchored in the uttarangam (PDS), that's why you don't have the pantuvarali feel. The song only briefly stays in the range of notes that are similar in the two ragas.

I took the liberty of answering even though the question was addressed to @Mahesh.

[RSR]

@10-> Ranganayaki-> Thank you very much. Every one is most welcome to give their guidance. Actually, I am very happy that you have joined the discussion on ragas . with your erudite comments. As an untrained CM rasika, I identify the ragam on the basis of some benchmark or model songs in the respective ragam. .from old plate music. . In this thread, I had mentioned MLV 'innamum sandheha' in keervani...'jankaara sruthi seyguvaay ' 'of MS is in my reference is ..for poorvikalyani ? simmendramadhyama? " i came across an article comparing the two ragas yesterday. For PanthuvaraaLI, MS -> ennagaanu , saarsaaksha paripaalayamaam '. It is rather difficult to exactly pinpoint ragams in ragamalika compositions of SVV. the record itself runs for just 3 minutes and each stanza just for one minute and less allowing for lovely instrumental interlude. He is adept in gentle and imperceptible shift in ragams. So long as there is not too much difference, the error in identification may kindly be condoned. I intend posting more such requests for clarification about other songs of MS and kindly do give your valuable guidance. Regards

[Ranganayaki]

Purvi Kalyani starts with -> Irar Suthandhiram [??] -

Could it be Veerar and not Irar? The word vettri in the next part add to my impression.

[Ranganayaki]

@10-> Ranganayaki-> Thank you very much. Every one is most welcome to give their guidance.

Thank you, RSR for all your kind, welcoming words.

In this thread, I had mentioned MLV 'innamum sandheha' in keervani...'jankaara sruthi seyguvaay ' 'of MS is in my reference is ..for poorvikalyani ? simmendramadhyama? "

That is a well known keeravani song. A simple googling would have clarified that for you!

I hadn't heard the "jhankara shruti" song, so I searched for it. I only found this one, not MS: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=brAS9_Ce6zw

This is purvikalyani.

[RSR]

@13-> Ranganayaki-> I found this reply in quora. ( kervani and simmendramadhyama) You may like it .
https://www.quora.com/How-do-you-differ ... -only-M1-2.."There are two ragas which may share the same motif. Take Keeravani and Simhendra Madhyamam for instance. The motif P,D,N,R,N,R,N,D,P is common to both. In that case you need one more motif to resolve the ambiguity ".
----------------
link for MS record 'jankkaara sruthi seykuvaay'. https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... -seykuvaay
As I was not sure about the ragam, I have left it blank. Shall I fill it up as poorvikalyaani ?
---
If you know tamizh, may I request you to give the lyrics as sung by MS?

[Ranganayaki]

@13-> Ranganayaki-> I found this reply in quora. ( kervani and simmendramadhyama) You may like it .
https://www.quora.com/How-do-you-differ ... -only-M1-2.."There are two ragas which may share the same motif. Take Keeravani and Simhendra Madhyamam for instance. The motif P,D,N,R,N,R,N,D,P is common to both. In that case you need one more motif to resolve the ambiguity ".
----------------
link for MS record 'jankkaara sruthi seykuvaay'. https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... -seykuvaay
As I was not sure about the ragam, I have left it blank. Shall I fill it up as poorvikalyaani ?
---
If you know tamizh, may I request you to give the lyrics as sung by MS?

It is definitely purvikalyani, so you can write that down. The lyrics are in the video, and I don't write in Tamil script. I can read it. I'm not sure what you want me to do.

[Ranganayaki]

Karnatic.com has the lyrics here: http://www.karnatik.com/c1210.shtml. They are as sung by MS.

[RSR]

@16-> Thank you. I will try to get the original tamil poem from the transliteration and seek your approval. Suddhanandha baarathy is not easy to follow.

[RSR]

@16-> Done just now. I hope the lyrics are faithful to the original and the last few lines are really sung by Smt.MS
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... -seykuvaay

[deepadevadiga]

please any one having notes ... kannda song or some god songs..... carnatic notes pls provide me my mail adress deepachithrapura@gmail.com

[RSR]

Ranganayaki » 16 Feb 2018, 11:39
Karnatic.com has the lyrics here: http://www.karnatik.com/c1210.shtml. They are as sung by MS.

==
The full lyrics and ragams have been posted in the page. Thank you very much.
May I know the lyricist and composer for 'kaNNedutthaakilum pAreero' by MS? where can I get the transliteration of the lyrics? Who set it to music?
------
To the learned participants... Not exactly a query about ragam . In 'thavamum palitthathamma' song, as often happens in MSS rendering, there are many embellishments . as in a) buvanam viyanthida.. amuthath thamizhinil.. second time b) mArathar VaZhntha nam bAratha ... again c) devarum moovarum .. May I know if she sang these as guided by the music director or spontaneously. ( I believe no music director had a role in her rendering any song.) but am just curious. Similarly in vadavaraiyai song, 'vanduzhaay maalaiyaay ...'. she gives special treatment.

[MaheshS]

May I know if she sang these as guided by the music director or spontaneously. ( I believe no music director had a role in her rendering any song.) but am just curious. Similarly in vadavaraiyai song, 'vanduzhaay maalaiyaay ...'. she gives special treatment.

Rarely would you see MS doing spontaneous embellishments in a recording. It would have been polished to perfection under the watchful eye of TS. The practice sessions at Kalki Gardens are legendary. People who are familiar with the family like Cienu or MKR can confirm.

[RSR]

@21-> Mahesh Sir, That is not what I meant. She would have practiced to perfection.. but all those embellishments ( may be I am not conveying my idea clearly) are her own, I think. Nobody can suggest such things to her. The composer can only give the outline. and she does the rest ( may be after intense practice, just to avoid slightest blemish). For example, her rendering of Brocheva in Kamaj won lavish praise from the composer Mysore Vasudevachar himself. Did it not? In 'mannum imayamalai' song, her singing the line 'pannarum upa didatha nool '.. with emphasis, has been remarked by keen listeners. Almost every song by her has such treat. That is why she is adored.

[RSR]

@21->

MaheshS » People who are familiar with the family like Cienu or MKR can confirm.

I am mostly talking about the 'plate' music of Smt.MS ( 1936-1950). ( her 20th year to 34th year). The senior of the two persons you have mentioned would have been a boy of 12 if not even younger in 1950 and the other was not even born then. ..That apart, while Sri.TS , himself a fine singer, could have suggested some nice 'treats', inthe way MS rendered the songs, it is hardly likely. One possibility however is that people lke SVV and Piano Vaidhyanathan could have influenced the lines by their demonstration in an instrument.