Difference between Harikambhoji and khamas
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Difference between Harikambhoji and khamas
Dear all,
What is the difference between Harikambhoji and khamas. I came to know that they differ only by a rishabam in arohanam. Then what difference does it goin to make when ri is absent in arohanam but exits in avarohanam.
What is the difference between Harikambhoji and khamas. I came to know that they differ only by a rishabam in arohanam. Then what difference does it goin to make when ri is absent in arohanam but exits in avarohanam.
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Re: Difference between Harikambhoji and khamas
More knowledgeable posters may offer better insights ..
If ri is absent in arohana, you cannot have e.g. s r g or r g m combinations (i.e. cannot ascend from ri). So to ascend to ga/ma from sa, in khamas, you go s m g m. In harikambhoji, you can go s r g or s r g m etc. - there is no restriction. In khamas, I don't think s g m is allowed either - must be s ma g m i.e. from sa, to get to ga, it should be via ma.
(Of course in both you can have s r s or say s r n` (ni lower octave), because you are descending from ri, which is allowed in both since ri appears in their avarohanas)
There are further differences, In khamas, stopping at ma, with an oscillatory gamaka is characteristic (g m~ ~ ~). You shouldnt do that in harkambhoji. This is a more subtle rule as the reason is it would lead to too much similarity to khamas - even though harikambhoji is parent/mela raga, khamas is older and more established. It is said harikambhoji expositions need to be careful to avoid similarities to (the more popular) khamas.
Also some versions of khamas also use the higher (kakali) ni. That is of course not so with harikambhoji.
Arun
If ri is absent in arohana, you cannot have e.g. s r g or r g m combinations (i.e. cannot ascend from ri). So to ascend to ga/ma from sa, in khamas, you go s m g m. In harikambhoji, you can go s r g or s r g m etc. - there is no restriction. In khamas, I don't think s g m is allowed either - must be s ma g m i.e. from sa, to get to ga, it should be via ma.
(Of course in both you can have s r s or say s r n` (ni lower octave), because you are descending from ri, which is allowed in both since ri appears in their avarohanas)
There are further differences, In khamas, stopping at ma, with an oscillatory gamaka is characteristic (g m~ ~ ~). You shouldnt do that in harkambhoji. This is a more subtle rule as the reason is it would lead to too much similarity to khamas - even though harikambhoji is parent/mela raga, khamas is older and more established. It is said harikambhoji expositions need to be careful to avoid similarities to (the more popular) khamas.
Also some versions of khamas also use the higher (kakali) ni. That is of course not so with harikambhoji.
Arun
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Re: Difference between Harikambhoji and khamas
Arun,
Well said.
While khamAs delights and can be handled with ease, harikAmbhOji needs careful steering--can even be a bit of rope walking, but the effect it produces is so very pleasing.
Well said.
While khamAs delights and can be handled with ease, harikAmbhOji needs careful steering--can even be a bit of rope walking, but the effect it produces is so very pleasing.
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Re: Difference between Harikambhoji and khamas
samvAditva between M1 and N2 must have played a part. pazham nazhuvi aduvA eppadi pAlil vizhum!. But then It is also true that by tradition the emergent effect of those oscillations got identified (arbitrarily) to khamas.arunk wrote:More knowledgeable posters may offer better insights ..
There are further differences, In khamas, stopping at ma, with an oscillatory gamaka is characteristic (g m~ ~ ~). You shouldnt do that in harkambhoji. This is a more subtle rule as the reason is it would lead to too much similarity to khamas - even though harikambhoji is parent/mela raga, khamas is older and more established. It is said harikambhoji expositions need to be careful to avoid similarities to (the more popular) khamas.
Also some versions of khamas also use the higher (kakali) ni. That is of course not so with harikambhoji.
Arun
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Re: Difference between Harikambhoji and khamas
https://archive.org/details/089KamAs
hope this helps for part of the way
hope this helps for part of the way
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Re: Difference between Harikambhoji and khamas
Harikambhoji
Khamas
These two clips will show you the big difference between these two ragas and let you go beyond just scales in thinking of ragas.
Harikambhoji is a mother lode or Janaka for many ragas in Carnatic music. Khamas or as I would like to say, Khamach, is a rakti raga and is employed to much emotional effect. It carries with it fragrances from across the Vindhyas.
Khamas
These two clips will show you the big difference between these two ragas and let you go beyond just scales in thinking of ragas.
Harikambhoji is a mother lode or Janaka for many ragas in Carnatic music. Khamas or as I would like to say, Khamach, is a rakti raga and is employed to much emotional effect. It carries with it fragrances from across the Vindhyas.
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Re: Difference between Harikambhoji and khamas
Thanks Sachi. Ragasurabhi is a treasure trove of audio clips on ragas and that is my go to site for checking out melodic outlines.
BTW, her Kamas delineation is right on the money, but her harikambhoji sounded like it was too close to Kambhoji . While non-rakthi raga lakshaya can always be debated, I think harikambhoji swarupa comes out when the majestic bhava of kambhoji is down played. MS's rAma nannu brOvara (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6ZUzD7FvKY ) and vanDADum sOlai ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_29gzi88mM ) define the limits of the relatively narrow road harikambhoji occupies between Kambhoji and Sankarabharanam ( aesthetically speaking ).
BTW, her Kamas delineation is right on the money, but her harikambhoji sounded like it was too close to Kambhoji . While non-rakthi raga lakshaya can always be debated, I think harikambhoji swarupa comes out when the majestic bhava of kambhoji is down played. MS's rAma nannu brOvara (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6ZUzD7FvKY ) and vanDADum sOlai ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_29gzi88mM ) define the limits of the relatively narrow road harikambhoji occupies between Kambhoji and Sankarabharanam ( aesthetically speaking ).
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Re: Difference between Harikambhoji and khamas
VKM,
I had no problem with the Harikambhoji clip.
It is true many musicians find it difficult to sing Harikambhoji well.
BTW, I grew up listening to Saketanagaranatha, chani todi teve, enta rani, that swarajathi, etc.!
I had no problem with the Harikambhoji clip.
It is true many musicians find it difficult to sing Harikambhoji well.
BTW, I grew up listening to Saketanagaranatha, chani todi teve, enta rani, that swarajathi, etc.!
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Re: Difference between Harikambhoji and khamas
Indeed harikambhoji is a tight rope because it has to avoid khamas to which is has commonality in the upper part of octave - m p d n s, and to kambhoji to which it has commonality in the lower part of octave (s r g m p d). In spite of all this, we have well known and "big" krithis in this by Thyagaraja.
W.r.t ni and associated gamakas, in ragas that have p d2 n2 s like the 3 in question, in general, ni can oscillate in 2 ways:
1. When sa, follows (as in d n s, p d n s), it can oscillate between d and s. This can happen in harikambhoji (and khamas) but not in kambhoji (since you cannot ascend from ni).
2. In the context of p d n ... d (and thus descend from ni), it can oscillate between d and ni sthanam only. This can happen in harikambhoji (and khamas) as well as in kambhoji - i.e. all 3 ragas.
Of course in kambhoji, da itself swings wide in the p d s, which can't be so in the other two ragas. From my layman perspective, as long as one shows r g m and d n s (in context, with variations incl approp gamakas) often enough, the flavor of harikambhoji should persist enough
Arun
W.r.t ni and associated gamakas, in ragas that have p d2 n2 s like the 3 in question, in general, ni can oscillate in 2 ways:
1. When sa, follows (as in d n s, p d n s), it can oscillate between d and s. This can happen in harikambhoji (and khamas) but not in kambhoji (since you cannot ascend from ni).
2. In the context of p d n ... d (and thus descend from ni), it can oscillate between d and ni sthanam only. This can happen in harikambhoji (and khamas) as well as in kambhoji - i.e. all 3 ragas.
Of course in kambhoji, da itself swings wide in the p d s, which can't be so in the other two ragas. From my layman perspective, as long as one shows r g m and d n s (in context, with variations incl approp gamakas) often enough, the flavor of harikambhoji should persist enough
Arun
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Re: Difference between Harikambhoji and khamas
Just like pancama varjya rAga makes its own musical statement ( by omitting that dominant one - Dr Sriram Parasuram at IIT Bombay) - we also have gamaka varjya rAgas which make their own statement reaffirming their (gamakams) powerful presence in the musical system by creating their absence as a musical statement.
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Re: Difference between Harikambhoji and khamas
Lovely article From the Carnatic Gallery – Khamas and Harikambodi
by V.N. Muthukumar, Ram Naidu and M.V. Ramana
http://www.parrikar.org/carnatic/khamaj-page2/
by V.N. Muthukumar, Ram Naidu and M.V. Ramana
http://www.parrikar.org/carnatic/khamaj-page2/
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Re: Difference between Harikambhoji and khamas
Brilliant. Thanks, Rajesh!
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Re: Difference between Harikambhoji and khamas
Rajesh,
A big thanks
A big thanks
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Re: Difference between Harikambhoji and khamas
Good content by V.N. Muthukumar, Ram Naidu and M.V. Ramana. Thanks Rajesh for the link. btw, I think they have a typo there. The earlier part of the article refers to D3 a lot when they meant D2. Right?
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Re: Difference between Harikambhoji and khamas
I think you're right VKM....same D2 in both ragas chatushruti dhaivata
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Re: Difference between Harikambhoji and khamas
I am not an expert..but here is my take on the two raagas..experts can give a better opinion..Khamas is a lakshya ragam..Certain phrases like sa ma ga ma and ma ni dha are very important in khamas..the karvais at dhaivatam gives a distinct identity to khamas
Harikamboghi is more of a lakshana ragam..however phrases used by thyagaraja in his keerthanams have become a standard reference point for the structure of harikamboghi and thus giving a distinct identity to this otherwise scalar raaga..stressed phrases like dha ni sa also cannot be attributed as phrases defining harikamboghi..they are used only to distinguish the ragam from kamboghi
Harikamboghi is more of a lakshana ragam..however phrases used by thyagaraja in his keerthanams have become a standard reference point for the structure of harikamboghi and thus giving a distinct identity to this otherwise scalar raaga..stressed phrases like dha ni sa also cannot be attributed as phrases defining harikamboghi..they are used only to distinguish the ragam from kamboghi
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Re: Difference between Harikambhoji and khamas
Without going into technical details, I am just sharing some glorious songs by MS, DKP, NCV, GNB, MLV , Flute Mali, Chinna Moula Sahib and Nathamuni band. in these two ragams. ( there are 22 songs.. If we listen to all of them, in one stretch, it is equivalent to a grand concert. getting immersed in ocean of bliss).
https://sites.google.com/site/hindustha ... ome/kamaaj
https://sites.google.com/site/hindustha ... ome/kamaaj
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Re: Difference between Harikambhoji and khamas
Without going into technical details, I am just sharing some glorious songs by MS, DKP, NCV, GNB, MLV , Flute Mali, Chinna Moula Sahib and Nathamuni band. in these two ragams. ( there are 22 songs.. If we listen to all of them, in one stretch, it is equivalent to a grand concert. getting immersed in ocean of bliss).
https://sites.google.com/site/hindustha ... ome/kamaaj
https://sites.google.com/site/hindustha ... ome/kamaaj
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Re: Difference between Harikambhoji and khamas
this may be of interest.
http://www.parrikar.org/carnatic/khamaj-page2/
http://www.parrikar.org/carnatic/khamaj-page2/
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Re: Difference between Harikambhoji and khamas
Also khamas has the occasional N3 which is not in Harikambhoji
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Re: Difference between Harikambhoji and khamas
Sri.VK,vasanthakokilam wrote: ↑21 Mar 2016, 21:22 Good content by V.N. Muthukumar, Ram Naidu and M.V. Ramana. Thanks Rajesh for the link. btw, I think they have a typo there. The earlier part of the article refers to D3 a lot when they meant D2. Right?
http://www.parrikar.org/carnatic/khamaj-page2/
The error in information may kindly be brought to the notice of Sri.M.V.Ramana.
------------------------------------------"We conclude the feature by presenting a song that first appeared on the silver screen. It was composed by “Kalki” Krishnamurthy [11], one of the fathers of the Tamizh Isai movement, for the movie MEERA [12]. M. S. Subbulakshmi sings vandadum solai.
Vandaadum solai thanile is not a film song at all. RSR