Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 06 Apr 2018, 11:55

sureshvv wrote: ↑06 Apr 2018, 10:31 Given that there are a few "spurious" kritis composed by KVS with the Thyagaraja mudhra, I wonder!

I don't think he tried to pass of his compositions as Thyagaraja's. Apparently he acknowledged his work as his own. He seems to have studied T's style!

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 936921.ece

Of course I had never heard of this till now, but I feel quite disillusioned. I certainly knew that there were some kritis whose authorship was disputed, but I did not know that compilers were knowingly including others' kritis (like kvs') among T's kritis.

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 06 Apr 2018, 12:07

Is there some other justification for these two letters to be isolated as the soul of the mantras? I'm sure any letter taken away would reduce the mantras to meaninglessness. --?

This is mentioned in "kali santarana upanishad'.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 06 Apr 2018, 12:10

Ranganayaki,
I am having with me the book 'Adi Tyagaraja Kirtanams' by Shri KV Srinivasa Iyengar with me. Though I cannot read or write Telugu, I have got it read by my wife who knows - being educated in Telugu - Telugu. This kRti is very much available therein.

Further, the word 'rAma' is considered tAraka nAma. The other tAraka nAma is 'Om'.

The efficacy of the tAraka nAma - 'rAma' - can be gauged from the very fact that it has been equated with Om which is consered as ultimate mantra, without which every other mantra is considered powerless.

Here tyAgarAja equates rAma as 'paramAtma'. Any suggestion that this kRiti is spurious will be an absurdity-par-excellence.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 06 Apr 2018, 12:34

This kRti 'evarani nirNayincirirA' is available in all books I referred for my blog - 'Tyagaraja' TK Govinda Rao; Tamil book 'ஸத்குரு ஸ்ரீ த்யாகராஜ ஸ்வாமி கீர்த்தனைகள்' By AK Gopalan and disciple of Tiger Varadhachari TS Vasudevan; 'The Spiritual Heritage of Tyagaraja' by Shri C Ramanujachari and introduction by Dr. V Raghavan.

This kRti, in my opinion - I know it matters little - is one of the inspired kRtis of tyAgarAja.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 06 Apr 2018, 12:45

googleweblight.com/i?u=http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... 1&hl=en-IN

The web address given therein needs to be updated. I shall search and post it later.

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 06 Apr 2018, 12:47

Here tyAgarAja equates rAma as 'paramAtma'. Any suggestion that this kRiti is spurious will be an absurdity-par-excellence.

I just mentioned what I have read in the preface of one of the books by KVS. Certainly, I differ from him.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 07 Apr 2018, 08:52

vgovindan wrote: ↑06 Apr 2018, 12:10 Ranganayaki,
I am having with me the book 'Adi Tyagaraja Kirtanams' by Shri KV Srinivasa Iyengar with me. Though I cannot read or write Telugu, I have got it read by my wife who knows - being educated in Telugu - Telugu. This kRti is very much available therein.

Further, the word 'rAma' is considered tAraka nAma. The other tAraka nAma is 'Om'.

The efficacy of the tAraka nAma - 'rAma' - can be gauged from the very fact that it has been equated with Om which is consered as ultimate mantra, without which every other mantra is considered powerless.

Here tyAgarAja equates rAma as 'paramAtma'. Any suggestion that this kRiti is spurious will be an absurdity-par-excellence.

Thank you, Sri Govindan.. I will try to look up the terms you have used to understand your response better.

I did not say the kriti was spurious. I only asked my question about his interpretation of the mantras.

The link I provided mentioned several other kritis of KVS, thought to be T’s, but which KVS has acknowledged as his and which are included in books as T-kritis.. There was no mention of this particular kriti in the article, and I did not say anything about it being spurious.

By the way, don’t say your opinion doesn’t matter, it does. But very occasionally, Ive disagreed with you. It’s just my way of looking at things. That doesn’t mean I don’t hold you in high esteem. I admire what you’ve done. I would like you not to take a disagreement personally.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 07 Apr 2018, 08:53

bhakthim dehi wrote: ↑06 Apr 2018, 12:07

This is mentioned in "kali santarana upanishad'.

Ok, thank you.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 07 Apr 2018, 10:35

Ranganayaki,
Nothing personal. We are discussing issues. The response is issue related - and not person.

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 07 Apr 2018, 13:51

ref: @251 link.
"Some of the songs he thus created include ‘Nidu charanamule’(Simhendramadhyamam), ‘Natajanaparipalakana’ (Simhendramadyamam), and ‘Vinatasuta’ (Harikhambodi). The Hindu mentions one more – ‘Ni Balama’ for which no raga is given. When confronted about it Srinivasa Iyengar shrugged off his compositions as his tribute to Tyagaraja!"
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What is the position of these krithis now?

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 07 Apr 2018, 19:00

None of the krithis mentioned above can be seen in his books.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 08 Apr 2018, 10:59

Ranganayaki wrote: ↑07 Apr 2018, 08:53
bhakthim dehi wrote: ↑06 Apr 2018, 12:07

This is mentioned in "kali santarana upanishad'.
Ok, thank you.

Bhaktim Dehi,

I looked it up. My Question was whether there is scripture which brings together the Narayana mantra and the shiva 5-akshara mantra to say, as T does, that the substance of the two is Ramanama. The Upanishad you quoted does not say that! It does not even bring up the panchakshara.

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 08 Apr 2018, 13:14

Sri V Raghavan is the first one to mention about that. I even remember reading this concept in the mentioned upanishad. My memory could have slipped. Will check and come back to you.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 08 Apr 2018, 17:47

Ok, thank you.

ravichitrapu · Post by **ravichitrapu** » 08 Apr 2018, 21:53

Oh my god - the posts have not been quite what i expected from carnatic music lovers. quite a bit of rancour in some of the posts!!!!
anyway - my own feelings/ views -
1. Telugu language during the time of Thyagaraja and especially the language he used is not always colloquial - (and the telugu spoken today has evolved somewhat) so the meaning would have to be interpreted in that context.
(i am telugu by birth but cannot understand some of his songs right away just like that as if i was born to understand them - i still have to ask some Telugu scholars etc for the actual meaning)
2. Composers sometimes take some liberties in the form of lengthening some syllables in a line for the sake of tala or for the music sake; and especially Thyagaraja who is said to have been divinely blessed to have sung as it came to his mind - probably he did this too on more occasions.
3. Thyagaraja frequently used the names / attributes / incidents of Lord Rama & Krishna interchangeably - what i feel is that he mixed them quite freely - perhaps he viewed them both as one - i.e. his lord rama
4. regarding this song, yes the doubts / points raised by Smt Rama seem quite valid and probably need a committee of scholars (not just musicians alone) including telugu scholars with adequate background of religious texts - who can decide the appropriate line to end all charanams
5. we cannot expect all future generations to sing kritis as we want them to, all the time - a few of them are bound to experiment with at least some of the kritis - and if that is perceived to be better by the audience - those versions may become more popular - we cannot simply wish it away.
which is why i think we, who are all so used to listen to samayaniki feel aghast to think of saadhinchene replacing it
6. carnatic music is taught traditionally i feel with more emphasis on music and to some extent bhava - but sahitya does not necessarily take precedence in my humble opinion - which is why students / musicians do not hesitate to break words & lyrics for the sake of music. if we stick to correct rendering of sahitya and pause appropriately the musical content tends to be affected. and i think composers knew this but took the liberty to break the words / phrases sometimes.
thanks.
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RSR · Post by **RSR** » 08 Apr 2018, 23:06

carnatic music is taught traditionally i feel with more emphasis on music and to some extent bhava - but sahitya does not necessarily take precedence in my humble opinion - which is why students / musicians do not hesitate to break words & lyrics for the sake of music. if we stick to correct rendering of sahitya and pause appropriately the musical content tends to be affected. and i think composers knew this but took the liberty to break the words / phrases sometimes.

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Yes, Sir.
it may be good if the CM vocalists learned much more of Telugu, Kannada, and Sanskrit besides Thamizh. and made a sincere attempt to understand the lyrics that they were singing. without going into philosophical aspects.
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Recently, I came across a comment that equated Hanuman as an avatar of Siva!.. Puranas abound in such zealous stories. Thyagaraja does not mix too much of Rama and Krushna. just preparing a list of songs where such mixing occurs. Not many. Can give exact figures in a few days.
Todi is such a unique raga in CM with no equivalent in hm ( not in name) . why not choose the best Todi kriti from Thayagaraja and replace this controversial panchgarathna kriti with that? Aftrerall, the tradition was created by us hardly 100 years back.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 09 Apr 2018, 09:32

regarding this song, yes the doubts / points raised by Smt Rama seem quite valid and probably need a committee of scholars (not just musicians alone) including telugu scholars with adequate background of religious texts - who can decide the appropriate line to end all charanams
5. we cannot expect all future generations to sing kritis as we want them to, all the time - a few of them are bound to experiment with at least some of the kritis - and if that is perceived to be better by the audience - those versions may become more popular - we cannot simply wish it away.

tadvAg-visargO janatAgha viplavO yasmin prati-SloKam-abaddhavatyapi |
nAmAnyanantasya yaSOngitAni yat-SruNvanti gAyanti gRNanti sAdhavaH || Bhagavatam 1.5.11

On the other hand, that composition which, though faulty in diction, consists of verses each of which contains the names of the immortal Lord, bearing the impress of His glory, wipes out the sins of the people; It is such composition that pious men love to hear, sing and repeat to audience. (Translation Gita Press Ghorakhpur)

tyAgarAja was a bhAgavata first, musician second. For him music was a sAdhan (equipment/tool) through which he could reach the goal he set for himself. rAma - the paramAtma was his goal.

"tyAgarAju nErcina sangIta SAstra jnAnamu sArUpya saukhyadamE, manasA"

http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.in ... -raga.html

So scholars are going to sit in judgement as to what is right and what is wrong with the songs of tyAgarAja. Go ahead. Who can stop freedom of expression?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 09 Apr 2018, 09:58

Beautiful post by ravichitarapu.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 09 Apr 2018, 10:20

ravichitrapu wrote: ↑08 Apr 2018, 21:53 1. Telugu language during the time of Thyagaraja and especially the language he used is not always colloquial - (and the telugu spoken today has evolved somewhat) so the meaning would have to be interpreted in that context.
(i am telugu by birth but cannot understand some of his songs right away just like that as if i was born to understand them - i still have to ask some Telugu scholars etc for the actual meaning)

It is a particular geographical strain of Telugu spoken in the region. A "scholar" who is not well versed with this may find himself/herself at sea.

2. Composers sometimes take some liberties in the form of lengthening some syllables in a line for the sake of tala or for the music sake; and especially Thyagaraja who is said to have been divinely blessed to have sung as it came to his mind - probably he did this too on more occasions.

Many times a deliberate contention is introduced between Sahitya and Sangeetha to make life interesting for the musician to maneuver and rasika to enjoy

3. Thyagaraja frequently used the names / attributes / incidents of Lord Rama & Krishna interchangeably - what i feel is that he mixed them quite freely - perhaps he viewed them both as one - i.e. his lord rama

Not just Thyagaraja. This was also done by most of the Alwar saints and many other composers. Other avatars of Vishnu also freely mixed.

4. regarding this song, yes the doubts / points raised by Smt Rama seem quite valid and probably need a committee of scholars (not just musicians alone) including telugu scholars with adequate background of religious texts - who can decide the appropriate line to end all charanams

Think we have done it right here

5. we cannot expect all future generations to sing kritis as we want them to, all the time - a few of them are bound to experiment with at least some of the kritis - and if that is perceived to be better by the audience - those versions may become more popular - we cannot simply wish it away.

We should welcome it. Hopefully the experiment and its success will be accompanied by due consideration to all aspects.

which is why i think we, who are all so used to listen to samayaniki feel aghast to think of saadhinchene replacing it

The burden of proof always rests with the experimenter.

6. carnatic music is taught traditionally i feel with more emphasis on music and to some extent bhava - but sahitya does not necessarily take precedence in my humble opinion - which is why students / musicians do not hesitate to break words & lyrics for the sake of music. if we stick to correct rendering of sahitya and pause appropriately the musical content tends to be affected. and i think composers knew this but took the liberty to break the words / phrases sometimes.

Agree. Especially since it is your "humble opinion"

. But audiences are also becoming more educated (given the amount of material available) and are demanding more skillful renderings. See Point 2 above.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 09 Apr 2018, 10:58

ravichitrapu wrote: ↑08 Apr 2018, 21:53 6. carnatic music is taught traditionally i feel with more emphasis on music and to some extent bhava - but sahitya does not necessarily take precedence in my humble opinion - which is why students / musicians do not hesitate to break words & lyrics for the sake of music. if we stick to correct rendering of sahitya and pause appropriately the musical content tends to be affected. and i think composers knew this but took the liberty to break the words / phrases sometimes.
thanks.
*************

Well lets not lay it on predecessors for things that can be improved. When you say composers - especially SrI tyAgarAjA svAmi , there is no notated versions from svAmi himself. So this conjecture cannot be made. For the other two , we have iron clad structures and nothing could be affected there anyway.

Your sense of leniency for wrong split is fine, if the artiste is taught that way and sings it faithfully.

But then yourself and the artiste are employing so much analysis and judgement as regards "art" and how "music" is pre-eminent. After the era of BMK, MDR, KVN, TNS who have shown how syllables can be handled ( I am not saying all of them got it correct all the time, there may be exceptions , but I would think Dr BMK is correct most of the time), it should be possible for thinking musicians , who ruminate on things "artful" , to think about this better. Rest of the musicians have at least played with the syllables to show they can move for musical effect.

Secondly your comment about musical content being affected has to be turned on its head. The reason SrI tyAgarAja svAmis kritis are valuable, is the syllable spacing into which you can infuse rAga bhava in the first place. And different musicians all do it with different pATantarams, so rAgA by itself is not the actual inherited treasure from Sri tyAgaraja svAmi. "Gamakaws" have evolved, speed has changed.

So what you have inherited is syllable spacing that could be traced back to the composer, and even there, dhIrga / hrasva varies again due to different people learning it differently.

So in conclusion, syllable spacing has musical effect. Else plenty of pre-trinity composers would have occupied center stage by now!

Now we are demanding the same syllable spacing can be done differently and it is possible. And music will enhance too!

For example here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHblM5i ... .be&t=4241,

The word split it seems is : kalini ingatamu erugaka - not even merugaka - I re-verified - there is enough space to pause at ingitamu. erugaka will fall atItam to arudhi and ninnADu will fall atItam to saSabhda of second dRtam. A Mridangist will need to pause and emphasize both of them and music is enhanced.

As I said syllable positioning counts as music - as you cannot otherwise talk about music being there in first place , before it gets impacted.

So:

ravichitrapu wrote: ↑08 Apr 2018, 21:53 we cannot expect all future generations to sing kritis as we want them to, all the time - a few of them are bound to experiment with at least some of the kritis - and if that is perceived to be better by the audience - those versions may become more popular - we cannot simply wish it away.

This is not about what umpteen different future children would be singing like. We demand thinking , deliberative, introspecting, artful experts to fix this. Use their brains for a good cause, rather than trying to justify why syllables/words are broken!

And we also demand musicologists , drawing upon Prof. Sambamoorthy, to "STOP" saying, trinity composed kritis just only to show us the abstract rAgA bhava. I heard that again @ Arkay by one of his disciples last season - trying hard to find the link.

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 10 Apr 2018, 10:21

The Upanishad you quoted does not say that! It does not even bring up the panchakshara.

I made a mistake. Check with "Rama Rahasya Upanishad". Dr V Raghavan has mentioned about both the texts. You can check his book too.

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 11 Apr 2018, 16:01

When you say composers - especially SrI tyAgarAjA svAmi , there is no notated versions from svAmi himself. So this conjecture cannot be made.

..( sankaranK)
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i am under the impression, that the 'music' of Thyagaraja swami as we hear it now, was created by the composer himself. and taught to his direct disciples. Wrong?

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 11 Apr 2018, 19:06

shankarank wrote: ↑09 Apr 2018, 10:58
ravichitrapu wrote: ↑08 Apr 2018, 21:53 6. carnatic music is taught traditionally i feel with more emphasis on music and to some extent bhava - but sahitya does not necessarily take precedence in my humble opinion - which is why students / musicians do not hesitate to break words & lyrics for the sake of music. if we stick to correct rendering of sahitya and pause appropriately the musical content tends to be affected. and i think composers knew this but took the liberty to break the words / phrases sometimes.
thanks.
*************

Your sense of leniency for wrong split is fine, if the artiste is taught that way and sings it faithfully.

But then yourself and the artiste are employing so much analysis and judgement as regards "art" and how "music" is pre-eminent. After the era of BMK, MDR, KVN, TNS who have shown how syllables can be handled ( I am not saying all of them got it correct all the time, there may be exceptions , but I would think Dr BMK is correct most of the time), it should be possible for thinking musicians , who ruminate on things "artful" , to think about this better. Rest of the musicians have at least played with the syllables to show they can move for musical effect.

I agree completely. I have never met a misplaced syllable that could not be moved. It is not a concern for musicality, but a disregard for lyrics and/or unconsciousness of meaning! It is not just syllable spacing but the pronunciation of consonants too.

When sung correctly the kritis stop sounding like gibberish!!! They often become much clearer in meaning, and are always far more enjoyable. We owe it to the composers to make the correct versions more familiar and stop allowing their devotional works to sound like gibberish.

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 12 Apr 2018, 22:54

How important are the lyrics for music? While it is true that correct pronunciation and word-splitting enhance the quality of rendering in vocal music, how relevant is it for instrumental music?
This should not be construed as permission to mangle the existing krithis of the Greats . We should respect how the krithis have been sung over so many decades prior to 1966, a sort of border line in Tamilnad CM .
Secondly and more importantly, Tamizh language does not have any problem with different types of consonants and is sweeter for this reason. To illustrate, we can have ka, kka, and ga only. ( No kha, or gha..rather unnatural).
Why is any discussion ignoring some very good krithis by Papanasam Sivan modeled exactly on the original Thyagaraja krithis in ragam though the theme and meaning may be different? All the leading vocalists in Tamilnadu have sung many such tamizh krithis.
Thyagaraja should be evaluated as a music composer . He might have been a saint, But there was a real mendicant saint three vcenturies earlier ( Purandaradasa) and nearer still we had a real wandering mystic Sadasiva BrammendaaL. In very recent times, we had Ramana Maharishi and Paramahamsa. They were no poets are even composers. Thyagaraja krithis can be altered in rendering, only by common consent of musicologists and artistes.
But we can omit many krithis if not sounding well or proper. Aarabi is a nice ragam but 'samayaniki ' refrain, has ever sounded common place to me over so many years, even without going into its meaning. !

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 13 Apr 2018, 07:08

Thyagaraja should be evaluated as a music composer . He might have been a saint......

Better find out as to who his audience was.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 13 Apr 2018, 10:02

RSR wrote: ↑12 Apr 2018, 22:54 How important are the lyrics for music? While it is true that correct pronunciation and word-splitting enhance the quality of rendering in vocal music, how relevant is it for instrumental music?

First define what is music and why you need to have a term called instrumental music. Then we can discuss other arguments around it.

To stay within your realm of thought, the arguments I put forward only talk about syllable spacing and so far, right or wrong, that's what the so called instrumental music relied upon. Otherwise with ability to play any note, they can wing up their own sounds anytime they want. We need to think about why they were inspired to play the kritis so far.

You think if that was so constricting to their artistry, they would not have found a way out. Vid. Kumaresh - one of the violin duo is talking about here about that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8PbwTuhZXY

You would hear things like - why lyrics?, svarams are good enough. Yes.. yes.. pURNamadah pURNamidam. Every part is complete. That is why it is not lyrics - it is sAhityam. At the root of it , it has candas, then letters, then mAtrAs , then svaras , then composition (sandhAnam). Every part is complete.

Unfortunately the narrative is structured in a way - as he says at the outset - for the sake of non Carnatic audience - there is some notion that is promoted that songs of yore are obsolete, out of fashion anyways and in fact that's what is holding up music from reaching everybody. Did they? Listen to the entire Lec Dem and tell me.

You posted several musical instrumental film scores - they all reached the masses. But then tell me what is left? What is it that we call Carnatic music that has some stuff that has not hit the masses? Just ruminate on it. And focus only on music only will you? Don't bring your vaishnavism and bhakti movement into the milieu!

The bhakti movement stuff is overplayed and that is clouding everybody's view of things. And we don't need Advaita either.

We need a meta-physics - a set of axioms that is grounded on cultural roots. I don't want to worry about JIvan muktas etc. now.

I am a passionate person that wants to be born for ever! OK! I want to be grounded on the grandeur that is this world and how magnificently it is created.

For you SrI tyAgaraja is already mixed up , he doesn't know the difference between Siva, Vishnu etc. Well lets ignore all that stuff. SrI tyAgaraja svami is the one that has done immense favors to instrumentalists, more to percussionists in fact than others. Their livelihood rests on his works.

layam, cinnadu perusu (dhIrga hrasva), yati, viSramam - all there in his kritis in abundance. Even if you compose, you will have to use these idioms anyways. If you do Alapana, his rAga lakshanas as enunciated in the kritis will come to define the signatures of it. You do tAnam, they will look like the rhythmic flow of his kritis. You cannot escape from him.

If you have any other form - mallari, tillAna are there - they are heavily rhythmic forms to start with. If music is melody, which is the dominant notion, then none of these should really make a difference - should they?.

On the question of pronunciation, nobody has the intention to do it wrongly, but lot of that is hard wired , difficult to change. Depending on one's level one should make an effort. I know lot of Sanskrit words, but I don't know the meaning nor do I use it. The world does not use it for taRka today, legal or Accounting. So in spite of not knowing a language, one can make an effort - given the recitation tradition.

For me hearing a pallAndu sung in margazhi morning is as vaishanavite as anything larger in vaishnavism. I don't think I ever cared for it's meaning in entirety , except when I happen to catch it in a pravacanam. Some words do sound familiar.

For music, however, especially instrumental music, playing how it has been sung pre-1966 is one way , may be it is musical, but playing with fidelity to sAhitya in terms of sandhi and word split is another nuanced way that indeed produces NEW instrumental music as the syllable arrangement and handling is different . And some people should try it - that's all.

Elsewhere in Karnataka , he and his better half are talking about something else :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u3--KWpFF4

Roots. You see you want to take a universal view - but the tree has to grow high enough and look beyond the horizon! We need to feed at the roots!

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 15 Apr 2018, 13:17

shankarank wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 10:02 ......
You posted several musical instrumental film scores - they all reached the masses. But then tell me what is left? What is it that we call Carnatic music that has some stuff that has not hit the masses? Just ruminate on it. And focus only on music only will you? Don't bring your vaishnavism and bhakti movement into the milieu!
The bhakti movement stuff is overplayed and that is clouding everybody's view of things. And we don't need Advaita either.
.....
For music, however, especially instrumental music, playing how it has been sung pre-1966 is one way , may be it is musical, but playing with fidelity to sAhitya in terms of sandhi and word split is another nuanced way that indeed produces NEW instrumental music as the syllable arrangement and handling is different . And some people should try it - that's all.
......
Roots. You see you want to take a universal view - but the tree has to grow high enough and look beyond the horizon! We need to feed at the roots!

You would have noticed that I do not engage with you in any argument. I know that I cannot change your viewpoint ,Equally true that you cannot change mine either. I am not talking about the theory of music in general but specifically about CM. I have mentioned ad infinitum that CM is heavily oriented towards krithis. ( we should learn to differentiate between lyrics and sahithyam .. Lyrics are words but sahithyam is the same lyric set to music). Any lyric has a theme. So, when you consider any krithi in CM, we have to begin from the lyric, the theme, the quality of the poetic expression of the theme in the lyric and its faithfulness to the traditions of the cultural environment. ( For example, it is totally unacceptable to mix up saying Krishna married Sitadevi...and then justify that saying Krishna and Rama are one..!
Coming to the instrumental music, I do agree that the four instrumental interludes from Meera Hindi are not lingering in memory even to me! I had already mentioned that the instrumental music solo has to depend on a verbal song to remain in memory. That is why though we can listen to Todi alapana of TNR for hours together, we cannot hum it in our mind exactly. but we can hum the associated krithi as and when we like.
Again, whether CM is heavily Bakthi oriented or not should be adjudged on the krithis of its celebrated composers. beginning from Purandaradasa, through Badrachalkam Ramadas, Sadasiva BramhendaalL, the trinity, Swathi ThirunAL, and many more famous composers.
Even in CM, the theme has not been uniformly bakthi oriented. A minor part of it is in the erotic tradition of dance culture which often degenerated into praising the patrons in the garb of praising the deity.
My point is that the erotic part ( dance oriented) should be completely eliminated from the CM repertoire if it is not to degenerate into modern tamil film music ..all romantic gibberish.
I am all for retaining and improving the devotional nature of CM as intended by the more than 20 famed composers of CM.
Nobody can fail to notice that almost 90 % of all the krithis of the composers are besides being devotional in nature ( religious) , are also of vaishnavaite tradition. ( Krishna, Rama, Vishnu, and dasavathara)
No complaints whatsoever. In fact a close study of Indian culture reveals the Vaishanava tradition to have been central to Indian culture. ( All the puranas, mahabaratha, ramayanam, bagavatham) . though siva, sakthi, kumaran and vinayaga cult also played a part but only a minor part.
Thus unless one drops his vedic glasses and empathizes with the Indian Bakthi movement of CM beginning with Namdeva in Maharashtra way back in 1300 (AWARENESS a bit of modern Indian history is needed here. No use talking to people who ignore every thing after say 1500 BC!.)
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Music as such may include CM, HM and Western classical. .. There are literally lakhs of connoisseurs the world over who are great devotees of western classical, which as it began was Church music only associated with lyrics as we do, but in its modern form is purely instrument based and that too orchestration. I do not know the ABC of Western Classical and I may be excused if I wonder if you are familiar with Western Classical music.
It is not WCM that is the loser, but it is our loss.
This is because, sense of appreciation of good things in life be it classical literature or classical music cannot be imbibed except through a conducive domestic environment and exposure.
Thus it is conditional. but that is internal to us. The external reality is the evidence of the themes, and primary lyrics. of those composers.
As you have taken so much pains to refute my stand , I thought that it would be disrespectful not to reply to the points. But I cannot add any new points as these are not mentioned off hand just for controversy but after a lived experience of seven decades and exposure to CM- HM also purely as a rasika. I think, being a performer either as a singer or instrumentalist or percussion artist, predisposes one to glorify the skill that they are good at.
====================
I congratulate you for avoiding all those horrible smileys. and attempting a near cogent, though repetitive ( like mine) of your view of music. I do not accept it but there may be a few who subscribe to your theory that even a single word can be poetry or music! ( I wonder if there are any in this CM forum ..there may be a few )
With this, and with your permission, I take leave of engaging in any argument with you. as it will be futile for both of us , with stubbornly held views.
I suggest that you avoid giving links to lengthy lec-dem stuff. You can give a gist of what they say. For one thing, I hate visuals and secondly, instead of giving lec-dem video, they can as well post it as audio clip. CONVERTING THE TUBE VIDEO TO MP3. That would spare the person who listens the forced thrusting of the visual on them.
Bye,

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 15 Apr 2018, 14:59

Any feedback how many people have shifted to 'sadhinchane'?

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 16 Apr 2018, 09:23

tyAgarAja belonged to the unchhavRtti tradition. This tradition died a long time ago. The latest - not living - example of unchhavRtti tradition in tamil nADu was Gopalakrishna Bhagavathar of Pudukkottai. Those committeed to the tradition, earn their livelihood by roaming the streets, singing the praise of Lord. Whatever is offered in their small vessel goes for that day meals. This tradition is continuation of the stipulation for the brahmin community that they should live a life of self-denial, devoting themselves wholly for the service of the Lord. Of course not all brahmins took to unchhavRtii - as can be seen from the very example of tyAgarAja's elder brother.

Only those who have undergone the rigors of such life-style which these poor brahmins pursued, can understand what it means. I do not know whether I should call myself privileged to have known the same - but it is a very humbling experience - it could also result in hatred - the extreme of such suffering.

sangIta jnAamu dhAta vrAyavalerA - tyAgarAja states that one should have been ordained by Providence to the possess the knowledge of music. Having endowed with that, how he escaped the temptation of exploiting that knowledge to eke out a living through music, is a matter worth pondering. It must have been the deep bhakti tradition that has been imbibed by his mother through kRtis of rAma dAsu and others - as has been seen from some indication in his songs.

More than one century has passed since tyAgarAja has left his mortal coil. But this land is yet to see another tyAgarAja blossoming. Though the talent might be there, the environment of upbringing and one's own predisposition for such life of self-denial and deep dedication to the pursuit of bhakti as an end in itself are rare to combine in one.

Did tyAgarAja compose songs? Having studied all the kRtis of tyAgarAja, I can say that he did compose some of the kRtis and prahlAda bhakti vijayam and nauka caritra. But what stands out are those inspired kRtis which are the pillars of strength on which modern day CM has heavily drawn on.

Most of the inspired kRtis have just one caraNa. Coming to the kRti 'sAdhincenE', this kRti is somewhere between inspired and composed - in my humble opinion.

If there is anything wrong with the version of the kRti that has been passed down the generations, then it could surely be corrected. That's how there are variations in many books that I have referred - and I have listed down all the variations in my blog, unless some version is patently absurd, Even in such cases, I have given suitable remarks.

The problem with the present discussion is not that there is something wrong with the version that has been handed down. but, they question the very meaning of the kRti. Man has a tendency to build justifications for one's beliefs. I cannot be an exception to it.

Some singer from Andhra felt that the ss should end with 'sAdhincenE. and the present author constructs her argument based on that as the correct position. That's where the problem arises. Though I would not like to assign any motive to the author, twisting the meaning of words to suit one's arguments is not scholarship.

It makes no difference to me whether 'sAdhincenE' or 'samayAniki' is sung. Having seen the pomp and show of the tyAgarAja ArAdhana once, I have never visited it again. Even listening the concerts, I devote least time - I find nothing redeeming in them. THE VERY SPARK OF MUSIC IS MISSING. You can keep on stoking the fire to keep oneself warm. But it requires another tyAgarAja to set fire.

It matters little to me whether 'sAdhincenE' wins or loses.

http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.in ... u.html?m=1

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 16 Apr 2018, 11:05

RSR wrote: ↑15 Apr 2018, 13:17 You would have noticed that I do not engage with you in any argument. I know that I cannot change your viewpoint ,Equally true that you cannot change mine either.

I guess I committed a faux pas. I had to have addressed some not present chair of Rasikas! Like parliamentary procedure? If you post here, even if I address you, you should know that I do it for the sake of the readers as well. So it does not matter who you engage with in your mind. Secondly I am not worried about chaing your mind. There may be other confused minds out there, that you are further confusing or letting them remain confused. So I have to write mine.

RSR wrote: ↑15 Apr 2018, 13:17 I am not talking about the theory of music in general but specifically about CM. I have mentioned ad infinitum that CM is heavily oriented towards krithis. ( we should learn to differentiate between lyrics and sahithyam .. Lyrics are words but sahithyam is the same lyric set to music).

Further down:
Again, whether CM is heavily Bakthi oriented or not should be adjudged on the krithis of its celebrated composers. beginning from Purandaradasa, through Badrachalkam Ramadas, Sadasiva BramhendaalL, the trinity, Swathi ThirunAL, and many more famous composers.

I guess I have to wear some vEdantic lens now. CM is oriented towards bhakti, then something called CM exists independent of that? What is CM then? I asked you define in your framework.

sAhitya has a formal definition as literature as well here based on translations. It is not necessarily something with music always. Original definition of sAhitya occurs along with sangIta as two stanas of SrI Saraswathy. Thats how metaphysically ( or experientially) it was viewed.

RSR wrote: ↑15 Apr 2018, 13:17 Any lyric has a theme. So, when you consider any krithi in CM, we have to begin from the lyric, the theme, the quality of the poetic expression of the theme in the lyric and its faithfulness to the traditions of the cultural environment. ( For example, it is totally unacceptable to mix up saying Krishna married Sitadevi...and then justify that saying Krishna and Rama are one..!

I have listened to pravacanams , especially vaishnava tradition ones, I remember , that some among Azhwars have viewed Sri Venkatachalapathy in lieu of Rama or Krishna. I will find that reference one day when I have a chance to approach experts.

I don't think there were any mixup of actual kavyAs. He is addressing iShTa dEvata Sri Rama and mentions his other rUpAs.

RSR wrote: ↑15 Apr 2018, 13:17 Coming to the instrumental music, I do agree that the four instrumental interludes from Meera Hindi are not lingering in memory even to me! I had already mentioned that the instrumental music solo has to depend on a verbal song to remain in memory.

Yeah don't they use scores or sheets out there - that much I know about WCM - and it is Suzuki method that avoids sheets. CM instrumentalists with the help of sAhitya would remember the flow of what comes after what. But some may have abilities to remember the sangIta without sAhitya. I am taking sahitya more in a larger sense of the word. If their intent is to bring out the bhava first before embarking on instrumental forays on the sAhitya line, they ought to know the dhIrgha / hrasva flow of the sAhitya.

RSR wrote: ↑15 Apr 2018, 13:17 Even in CM, the theme has not been uniformly bakthi oriented. A minor part of it is in the erotic tradition of dance culture which often degenerated into praising the patrons in the garb of praising the deity.
My point is that the erotic part ( dance oriented) should be completely eliminated from the CM repertoire if it is not to degenerate into modern tamil film music ..all romantic gibberish.

I don't know why you have to let something that happened somewhere else to control the agenda of your heritage music. Modern tamizh music: Romantic gibberish? - nah, eve teasing and belittling of Women - for basal appreciation anti-tradition lumpen elements of society. I feel the challenge of pre/post independence generation, but more history has happened since then [:cough:] so we could revisit this in a more thoughtful way?

RSR wrote: ↑15 Apr 2018, 13:17 I am all for retaining and improving the devotional nature of CM as intended by the more than 20 famed composers of CM.
Nobody can fail to notice that almost 90 % of all the krithis of the composers are besides being devotional in nature ( religious) , are also of vaishnavaite tradition. ( Krishna, Rama, Vishnu, and dasavathara)

If you wear the western lens and think that Indian history is their history then I cannot do anything about it. You have then less authority to question me on why I wear a vEdic lens. There are people of vaiShnavite tradition involved in music, there are industrialist patrons like the same, but how much of core vaiShnavite traditions viewed, the trinity, or bhadrachala ramadasa or svAti tiruNal or abhangs as part of their tradition in the"South" especially? May be there is one Sabha, P.S Swamy Sabaha, and there Vaishnavaite Acharyas come to present the awards.

I have spent all my child hood in Southern Vaishnavite environs and I know how they view things musical!

RSR wrote: ↑15 Apr 2018, 13:17 No complaints whatsoever. In fact a close study of Indian culture reveals the Vaishanava tradition to have been central to Indian culture. ( All the puranas, mahabaratha, ramayanam, bagavatham) . though siva, sakthi, kumaran and vinayaga cult also played a part but only a minor part.
Thus unless one drops his vedic glasses and empathizes with the Indian Bakthi movement of CM beginning with Namdeva in Maharashtra way back in 1300 (AWARENESS a bit of modern Indian history is needed here. No use talking to people who ignore every thing after say 1500 BC!.)

The itihasAs were never a sole property of any sect. Even Buddhist tradition is a protestant type Indian tradition. And you cannot view even Bhakti tradition as separate from any other larger Indian tradition. You are wearing a Marxist lens - which justifiably has to be removed from History.

RSR wrote: ↑15 Apr 2018, 13:17 This is because, sense of appreciation of good things in life be it classical literature or classical music cannot be imbibed except through a conducive domestic environment and exposure.
Thus it is conditional. but that is internal to us. The external reality is the evidence of the themes, and primary lyrics. of those composers.

If you buy the word classical and the efforts of many Indian musicians to posture it that way due to a dominant west, then you are wearing that lens. Why should I have to wear that? It is not my lens?

Ours is a sanskritic music - something made refined. tyAgaraja's immediate successors would not have viewed him anything like a "creative genius". No such notion ever existed in Indian thought , with the same sense as creativity ( as defined by the West!) . They were all people who submitted their work at the memory of their predecessors. Even the core idea of intellect "yati viSrama" - Dr Raghavan alludes to vARNa karas and prabhanda kArAs before SrI tyAgaraja.

And there is Sri Kalidasas famous Sloka - that he is only putting a thread through a string of diamonds already created by his predecessors ( to give you some history post 1500 BC [:cough:]).

That is the Indian Lens.

And yet this whole forum and the music community spent their energies , close to the centenary time - to show how much of Pallavis and manodharmic stuff that Smt. MSS had sung - so creative she is isn't it - and one Nitwit - raised on Leftist Giberrish ( shall I say) ruminates on it all over the boutique liberal media and in tamizh The Hindu.

What a bunch of clueless bloats!

RSR wrote: ↑15 Apr 2018, 13:17 I suggest that you avoid giving links to lengthy lec-dem stuff. You can give a gist of what they say. For one thing, I hate visuals and secondly, instead of giving lec-dem video, they can as well post it as audio clip. CONVERTING THE TUBE VIDEO TO MP3. That would spare the person who listens the forced thrusting of the visual on them.
Bye,

Oh there is another fun filled one and you don't have to watch ! First the link and I will write on it and post time lined links from others to respond to that. And you don't have to read my responses - it is for whoever is interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP0eMHfzVuU

Yeah marriage songs, occasion related singing - all folk. And classical music , like instrumental music is non referential. Thyagaraja's nalugu song nagumOmu, that Dr Pantual Rama and her husband demonstrated - how it can be sung in KhanDa naDai - is folk song!

And he is some Bharata/SarangadEva / venkatamakhi reader locked up in Sarasvati Mahal that suddenly lands in the Modern Planet Earth like an alien , a world that is filled with Particle Accelerators, and Poly-technique trained carpenters, and Youtube! Sigh.... I know he is elderly and cannot sometimes gather himself up.. but then he should stick to his SAstras!

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 16 Apr 2018, 13:09

RSR wrote: ↑15 Apr 2018, 13:17 Nobody can fail to notice that almost 90 % of all the krithis of the composers are besides being devotional in nature ( religious) , are also of vaishnavaite tradition. ( Krishna, Rama, Vishnu, and dasavathara)

Ayyayya...another Perumal fanatic ... Easwaro rakshati

BTW, I like Arunagiririnathar from the other 10% much more than the 90%. Quantity is no indication of quality or intensity of bhakti.

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 16 Apr 2018, 15:16

vgovindan wrote: ↑16 Apr 2018, 09:23 tyAgarAja belonged to the unchhavRtti tradition. This tradition died a long time ago. The latest - not living - example of unchhavRtti tradition in tamil nADu was Gopalakrishna Bhagavathar of Pudukkottai. Those committeed to the tradition, earn their livelihood by roaming the streets, singing the praise of Lord. Whatever is offered in their small vessel goes for that day meals. This tradition is continuation of the stipulation for the brahmin community that they should live a life of self-denial, devoting themselves wholly for the service of the Lord. Of course not all brahmins took to unchhavRtii - as can be seen from the very example of tyAgarAja's elder brother.
-----------------------------
sangIta jnAamu dhAta vrAyavalerA - tyAgarAja states that one should have been ordained by Providence to the possess the knowledge of music. Having endowed with that, how he escaped the temptation of exploiting that knowledge to eke out a living through music, is a matter worth pondering. It must have been the deep bhakti tradition that has been imbibed by his mother through kRtis of rAma dAsu and others - as has been seen from some indication in his songs.
----------------------------------
Did tyAgarAja compose songs? Having studied all the kRtis of tyAgarAja, I can say that he did compose some of the kRtis and prahlAda bhakti vijayam and nauka caritra. But what stands out are those inspired kRtis which are the pillars of strength on which modern day CM has heavily drawn on.
Most of the inspired kRtis have just one caraNa. Coming to the kRti 'sAdhincenE', this kRti is somewhere between inspired and composed - in my humble opinion.
If there is anything wrong with the version of the kRti that has been passed down the generations, then it could surely be corrected. That's how there are variations in many books that I have referred - and I have listed down all the variations in my blog, unless some version is patently absurd, Even in such cases, I have given suitable remarks.
It makes no difference to me whether 'sAdhincenE' or 'samayAniki' is sung. Having seen the pomp and show of the tyAgarAja ArAdhana once, I have never visited it again. Even listening the concerts, I devote least time - I find nothing redeeming in them. THE VERY SPARK OF MUSIC IS MISSING. You can keep on stoking the fire to keep oneself warm. But it requires another tyAgarAja to set fire. It matters little to me whether 'sAdhincenE' wins or loses.

http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.in ... u.html?m=1

==========================================================================================
Respected Sir, You know in how much high esteem I hold you for your monumental labour of giving the transliteration of all the krithis and also meaning in thamizh. With your permission, I have lifted entire pages from your blog and posted them in my humble website honouring Smt.D.K.PattammaL . I will be the LAST person to pass irreverent remarks on your interpretation. .... As I think Sri. RaviSri has noted, samayaniki can be sung in passages referred to Lord Krishna and in other passages 'sadhinchane' is apt. because, Lord Rama is famed as 'oru sol raman'. ...one word, one arrow and one consort.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had the good fortune as an elementary school student in a small town to have known one such unchavritthi brahmin, and participated in his daily bajan rounds. He was not a composer but a singer in bajan tradition. and he lived in a corner of a temple. He was highly venerated by all the inhabitants of the town, a man of exemplary piety, simplicity and totally indifferent to 'riches' and even to recognition and fame. But that was some seventy years back. People like him no longer appear in Tamilnadu.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree totally with the nature of Thyagaraja uthsavam as being celebrated in recent times. I had suggested that only Nagaswaram players should have the honour of paying their music tribute to the saint. and the disease of telecasting should be completely eliminated from the CM scene. Music is to be heard and what is there to be seen? Is it like a oscar or filmfare award function?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I suppose there is annulal vidwat sadas in music academy and experts there can take a decision on the issue under discussion.
--------------------------
With all due veneration to a person who lives what he preaches. Pranaams.

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 16 Apr 2018, 15:26

uday_shankar wrote: ↑16 Apr 2018, 13:09
RSR wrote: ↑15 Apr 2018, 13:17 Nobody can fail to notice that almost 90 % of all the krithis of the composers are besides being devotional in nature ( religious) , are also of vaishnavaite tradition. ( Krishna, Rama, Vishnu, and dasavathara)
Ayyayya...another Perumal fanatic ... Easwaro rakshati BTW, I like Arunagiririnathar from the other 10% much more than the 90%. Quantity is no indication of quality or intensity of bhakti.

==========================
'aiya..aiya.. aiyaa..! who cares what you prefer?
"Nobody can fail to notice that almost 90 % of all the krithis of the composers are besides being devotional in nature ( religious) , are also of vaishnavaite tradition."...that is what you should contest with your databank, if not near empty. 'Easwaro Rakshathu ..not rakshathi... I think, you are one of the modern composers !.
Quantity may not be an indication of quality but mere sparsity is no indication of quality either. It remains to be seen how much of all these modern compositions and poems will be remembered in just five decades since.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 16 Apr 2018, 18:26

How did this thread turn into this?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 16 Apr 2018, 19:04

Darwin must be summoned!
It is unfortunate that music must be mixed up with caste and sect. None of the major composers were sectarian. Why not we rasikas confine ourselves to music rather than what dominates? Let music dominate.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 16 Apr 2018, 20:16

SrinathK wrote: ↑16 Apr 2018, 18:26How did this thread turn into this?

It’s the fate of nearly all threads - they all get reduced to the LCM of the posters (or is it the HCF, given it’s a much smaller number???)....

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 16 Apr 2018, 21:06

RSR,
It is suffice to say that this kRti out and out pertains to kRshNAvatAra. Epithets like veNkaTESa, hari, rAma candra etc do not play any role in defining the theme of the kRti. It is not very elegant to say that one portion pertains to kRshNAvatAra and other pertains to rAmAvatAra.

The words 'tA paTTina paTTu sAdhincenE' - can never be made applicable to rAmAvatAra. All other refererences like, dEvaki, vasudEva, gopi etc clearly define that the kRti pertains to kRshNAvatAra. Therefore, simply based on epithets, it is not appropriate to bring in rAmAvatAra here. They simply remain epithets of vishNu - kRshNa.

Therefore, the interpretation that rAma did not falsify his words, is an extrapolation of the kRti and not in tune with the theme of the kRti.

While trying to understand the kRtis, of the tyAgarAja, it is essential to go by the verbs and sentences and not the epithets only.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 16 Apr 2018, 22:27

Looking at

http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.in ... -raga.html - vgovindan's interpretation
and
http://www.shivkumar.org/music/sadhinchane-new.htm

It seems to me that while sAdinchanE and samayAniki may be both appropriate to the charanams, samayAniki describes the Lord's immediate actions for all the charanams as both Krishna and Rama avatars have spoken very well in all the circumstances mentioned in them, while sAdinchanE is what he did ultimately by speaking pacifying words, which is cheating them. So sAdinchanE is the overall theme.

The whole krithi runs on the lines of the Lord giving assurances via words and producing his desired effect without actually fulfilling what his devotees sought, and he's doing the same thing to Tyagaraja also.

Now you could argue that he cheated them first and then pacified them with all sorts of sweet words and assurances, or whether he assured them with promises and words and kept their hopes up, but ultimately managed to successfully dodge them. Well, actually He did both. But the cheating is the main thing, the words are the method he uses to manage it (i.e. damage control

)

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 17 Apr 2018, 01:42

uday_shankar wrote: ↑16 Apr 2018, 13:09
RSR wrote: ↑15 Apr 2018, 13:17 Nobody can fail to notice that almost 90 % of all the krithis of the composers are besides being devotional in nature ( religious) , are also of vaishnavaite tradition. ( Krishna, Rama, Vishnu, and dasavathara)
Ayyayya...another Perumal fanatic ... Easwaro rakshati

The vaishnavism he talked about is not the one that I have experienced. I have been garlanded and given honours in my own vaishnavite temple that I grew up. Recently I visited the Fort Lauderdale Siva Vishnu temple and watched with how much reverence the proceedings were conducted. At the culimination, the chief Archaka gave tIrtam and jaTAri to first the junior archaka of vaishnavite tradition, who then took over the same from him to give it ( only one time) to the Siva temple archaka and then to everybody else. There was no sign of anything amiss in anybody's mind, if anything I felt happy to see traditions being followed.

The Vaishanavism that he talks about is the pan-vaishnavisim (like pan leftism!) - based on race theories of Aryan/Dravidian. As the story goes EVR and his Balija Naidus are vaishnavites who came from the North!

But then all isai-vellalars would be saivaites and nobody else have a claim on Music would they? And there is no Saivism anywhere else.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 17 Apr 2018, 06:56

The point is simply that there is no place for this discussion in this thread, even if it is relevant elsewhere.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 17 Apr 2018, 08:44

It seems that you wait until it is not to your liking, but the discussion was started with comments like 'lament' passed on the kriti and its meaning and some effort to de-emphasize and mediate out of paying attention to sAhitya. Every body wants to moderate and mediate out of controversies.

And it seems like people now understand my posts

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 18 Apr 2018, 20:38

@280-> 1) Bakthavijayam episodes do not look down upon any occupation, when performed with efficiency and care for public good. Vinoba's classic lectures on the Gita , has sold in lakhs in its thamizh translation. Very few were brahmins. The saints were from community of weavers, potterymakers and tailors. Carpentry is in fact a very respected occupation extolled in even Vedic texts.
2) The term 'dravida' was not due to Caldwel. It was used very early around 600 AD to refer to Tamilnad region in early Pallava times. when Kanchipuram was praised as the best among the cities by a famous sanskrit poet Was it Bharavi? .
3) I think, 'dravida sisu' was used by Adi Sankara. . Similarly Arya just referred to small peasant proprietors of 'mullai' land. Not to brahmins. in its early usage. Kindly do not read too much into the 'race' connotations and mislead . I have suggested that foremost respect should be given to Nagaswaram Vidwans in CM . and also observed in earlier threads that a distinctly thamizh music tradition should have existed for many centuries before 1500 AD,
The last line was in very bad taste, unbecoming of a 'physicist'.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 19 Apr 2018, 18:10

RSR wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 20:38 The last line was in very bad taste, unbecoming of a 'physicist'.

When did I talk that much physics? In a sense that there are kriyAs ( actions) and intervals ( mAtrAs) is a valid physical observation as much as it is a musical observation. I know some music too. And I read his articles - many of them!

It is fine if he forays to socio-scientific phenomena. But he is a bit lost. A tyAgaraja listener living in the era of particle accelerators , is not going to bring any new dimension to music, as well (or badly) as , a tyAgaraja listener(or musician) infused with some Marxist junk!

As regards your previous lines, that is your feel good comfort history - propose it. But one thing , when you express your feelings, you are an authentic Indian grounded in our lens, but when you suddenly do too much thinking in your head, you get too much sympathy for the kinder-gartner - Indian style

!

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 20 Apr 2018, 18:27

Is there any CM kriti mentioning Krishna, his eight wives, 16100 junior wives, and Radha ?

sankark · Post by **sankark** » 20 Apr 2018, 18:47

Pratyaksham Bala wrote: ↑20 Apr 2018, 18:27 Is there any CM kriti mentioning Krishna, his eight wives, 16100 junior wives, and Radha ?

What an atrocity by Him - there should have been x10 sub-junior wives too.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 20 Apr 2018, 21:55

Radha is not a bhAgavata character. IMHO, Radha was created by Chaitanya.

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 20 Apr 2018, 22:51

http://translationsofsomesongsofcarntic ... entha.html
( by Sri.P.R.Ramachander)
Entharani thanakentha poni nee,
Let anything come let anything go , ,
I would not leave you
Did not Lord Shive who killed the God of death,Come in the form of Hanuman and serve you?
Did not Adhisesha who was an ornament of Shiva,Come in the form of Lakshmana and serve you?
Did not that great Vasishta who was a great scholar,And a great sage and became your own ?
.Oh great man , Did not for your sake .All the devas assume the form of vanaras and help you?
Did not Thyagaraja sing about your,Great characters praised by the Vedas ?
---------------------------------------------
Smt.MS rendered it as the first song in her Music Academy concert 1968
http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.in ... -hari.html
(Sri.V.Govindan)
O Lord SrI rAma! O Best of men!
Come what may, I shall not leave Your proximity.

Isn't Lord Siva serving as AnjanEya by joining You?
Isn't SEsha serving You in the garb of lakshmaNa?
Isn't the great, wise, excellent sage vasishTha there, as Your benefactor (or family priest)?
Aren't the hordes of celestials serving You by becoming monkeys for Your sake?
Isn’t this tyAgarAja singing Your virtues proclaimed in the Agamas?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 21 Apr 2018, 02:02

Rama, Panthula Rama isn't bothering herself to glance at this thread at all, I guess. piLLaiyAr piDikkak
kurangAna kadai AyiTRE? We have made monkey (not anything like the great HanumAn at all) out of her efforts to make a GaneSa

Agreeing and disagreeing with her are fine, but the manner in which some of us go about it is ridiculous, to say the least...

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 21 Apr 2018, 10:36

sankark wrote: ↑20 Apr 2018, 18:47
Pratyaksham Bala wrote: ↑20 Apr 2018, 18:27 Is there any CM kriti mentioning Krishna, his eight wives, 16100 junior wives, and Radha ?
What an atrocity by Him - there should have been x10 sub-junior wives too.

Such a song will be sung with fewer notes when men get married and the bride is given in Wedding to them , the purOhit will say "viShNurEva" . As Sri velukuDi krishnan noted, his father would say , would anybody ever trust this guy?

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 21 Apr 2018, 14:44

The Vaishnava tradition of the Varkari sect (Maharashtra and Northern Karnataka) followed by Marathi saints and Purandara Dasa , does not at all speak about the sa-called dalliance of Krishna with Gopikas. Vitoba cult. Clean and inspiring. Lord Vittal and consort Rukmani arms akimbo standing on a brick to give dharsan.
--------------------------------------------------- As for Rama stories, we have Valmiki Ramayanam, and in Tamil country, Azhvar Pasurams ( 700 AD) and above all Kamaba Ramayanam. ( 1100 AD) almost the same period as Ramanuja. Anything that goes against their versions is not worth following.