David Shulman on Carnatic Music

[uday_shankar]

There is plenty of room for all of us. Can't we all just simply get along?

No no that won't do . For the longest of time I thought the acronym SSP bandied about in Carnatic circles was Senior Superintendent of (Sahitya) Police and it all made more sense than when somebody eventually pointed out that it was actually Sangita Sampradaya Pradarshini.

[sankark]

There is plenty of room for all of us. Can't we all just simply get along?

No no that won't do .

For some (parties of part a) the very idea that others (parties of the part b) could believe, be happy and enjoy things that they (parties of part a) don't believe or find enjoyable is just plain impossible to even think about. They (part a) think it is an aberration in the others (part b). And they (part a) set out to disillusion others (part b) with elaborate this-and-that-and-then-some (telugu is THE language for CM because of lot of vowel sounds, CM sprung only from the trinity-of-tiruvaru, sahityam is THE thing, you should not sing songs on sivan/ambal/murugan/etc. in ayodhya mantapam during rAmanavami, varNam should be sung only at the start of the concert, women should just sing kalpitha sangitam, westerners can't just appreciate CM, whatever) kind of stories and build edifics of rationale that are filmsy. So acknowledging there could be an alternative shakes their world; puts too much strain on their (part a) brains which evidence shows to be non-existent.

So, can't we all just simply get along? No-effing-way-in-this-god-given-(mostly-used-to-be-green-)earth!

[shankarank]

Ramnad Krishnan, awesome musician, raised the hackles of many a sahityanazi with his bad pronunciation and slurring of words.

candrA pIDAm cadura vadanAm.. yes may be he was a mallu-mallu - not the Sanskrit mallu - or a real tambram from down south . The man gave music using drawl - converting hard to soft - a feminine grace I suppose !

KJ Yesudas was castigated by KaNNadAsan for singing kiLiyE kiLiyE as giliyE giliyE - saying he was affected by "gili" or madness hearing that. All chauvinism resulting post the linguistic states - not that I am against linguistic states.

But the presence of a language called tamizh with ambiguous consonants and the non-prevelance of Sanskrit with disappearance of vEdic instruction , which at that time was not given to people outside that profession , even if born in the brahmin caste, ought to inform people a bit on how to judge these things.

But what I cannot understand is this: https://youtu.be/YYup8nhhccg?t=2285 - I very much enjoy her singing nevertheless , but not using "prAsA" to remember a line - ghana nibha vs. dhanapati , even with reference is something too far. "prAsA" is music!! And I am not expecting her to aspirate even

Thimuga KirubAnanda variyAr, it seems, claimed aspirating reduced one's age

There is not much else on sooryakantam as a rAgA if you will!

And there is only recording of TMT singing this kriti from golden era!

[sankark]

[
But the presence of a language called tamizh with ambiguous consonants

Perhaps you could start a thread, under Tamil, and elaborate your stance, to discuss this in depth rather than digress this thread. As I understand, thamizh's consonants are well defined and has clarity on stress/hardening/softening based on position within the word/metreme

[shankarank]

sankark, a thread is a thread , it weaves itself , sews itself like tantra or svatantra or sutra.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantra

We need a new tantra or sutra - may be invent a bharatasangItam, like bharatanATyam with new grammar

[arasi]

New tantrA or mantrA or any such? I can think of one: MTTOB--Mind the thread's own business

[shankarank]

You will need an AI machine that has a tantra of its own to achieve that. That way the thread itself can mind it's own business if you know what I mean!

[kvchellappa]

A thread loses the thread when it gets kinky (unless you take kinky otherwise!). Commendable effort has been put in to make it so.

[kvchellappa]

I think you have not read it carefully.

the dominance, or primacy, of the text

is quite emphatic.

I feel that we should read it as an interview rather than as a PhD thesis. Even in the interview, his views are clear and the language of choice diction.
In the present case, he is referring to one of the distinguishing features. Dominance of text (sahitya), as one of the distinguishing features in CM, is undeniable compared to HM. You cannot read it as dominant difference between the two systems. That is transferred epithet, that is outright wrong. In any case, it is your view against another's, in this case another happens to be one who knows his onions. You have seen another opinion which endorses the dominance of text.
Many of your views are weighty and valuable, but do not belong here.

[kvchellappa]

But your minds should not be swayed by conventional views that you hear in the public space. It’s very important to go back to the first sources and read them in their original language, if you possibly can. It’s a real challenge, and also a gift to be able to take that up as part of your own life.

I have not read the Ramayana, neither Mahabharata. I watched the serials. Even I don't remember anything from them. The only ones I have memory of is what I heard from an authentic traditional scholar, may be he read the original, but he was given expositions by a Guru alongside.

The former above may be a scholarship requirement. But what is the use of it.

You are writing as though it was suspended in mid-air. It is in reply to a question, and makes perfect sense in that context.

[kvchellappa]

In the second part of the above post (16), you seem to question the questioner rather than the answer. (300 Ramayanas). I did not make an effort to understand as it is not about Shulman.

[shankarank]

And the music of ARI's immediate successors , MMI, SSI, GNB , DKP , MLV and further down KVN, MDR, Ramnad CANNOT be said to be composition based

Agree completely. Many of those mentioned were exceptionally original and creative and did not at all follow ARI's "formulaic" manodharma and songlist-cornucopia approach to music.

It is possible that, that is a narrative issue: I.e. ARI begins with a vaRNam, sings pantuvarALi or pURvikalyANi, then sings a pancaratnam, and then added a tiruppAvai later and so on..

I have to resort to food analogies may be of a different kind. Especially to be on the face to TMK who hates it - . An Indian Tambaram (& Tambram) dad who runs K-12 business, preparing "Texts" for all students across state of Texas, had challenges feeding his daughter. On our visit they asked how we manage , as I had also mentioned the same. He talked about having hired a "food" consultant , solid/liquid balance, and finally lo and behold: "texture" issues.

That lighted up my brain as to the array of textures in our food, from crunchy to gooey to pasty to supple to mashy. Even potato can be prepared to umpteen textures.

That would explain ARI's style. As he was facing , who would be musically kids , who were picky eaters , having "texture" issues. So he employed some "text".

That food analogy has to be contrasted with the usual , listing of sequences from sambar to rasam to mOru. The latter is philately and the former is a bit more abstract - philosophy if you will.

You have to listen to Allepey Venkatesan , explain how he handles two different tiruppAvais, both in the same miSra cAPu , one stretched and the other with an offset. You need , Ahem!, a different eye or ear if you will, to judge those people.

இவனெல்லாம் (டீ எம் கே ) பேச வந்துட்டான் . இவன் பேச்ச கேட்டு நாலு பேர் கொக்கரிக்கிறார்கள் !

[kvchellappa]

These padams are erotic padams, but either she, or her father, or her teacher—somebody—will get up and say, “Well, these look as if they were about eroticism and sexuality and stuff like that, but really it’s just a way of talking about God.” They’ll always go into this apologetic, which is a savage attack on the sensibility that produced these works.

Because the dads have been put in a hapless position of defending against mischief mongers. The Dravidian movement started by Caldwell and the Left have subverted the discourse. You the professor, are still exploiting the residual slave mentality of Indians. And we have to use the word: God!

First take off your abrahamic lens, and set aside your moral lessons, will you?

Leave it to us , on how we negotiate to live under the barbaric constitution , drawn from the French republic. We don't need your analysis.

Is this response sensible? Do we not comment on the west and their culture? Where is Abrahamic faith coming here? Compared to your language, Shulman has been very pointed and polite. How do you defend the padams which are explicitly erotic if they are 'wrong'? In fact, in 'Abrahamic lens', it is indefensible. Shulman is defending it in a very Indian sense.

[kvchellappa]

Post 22 is totally misguided. Most kritis are addressed to some deity in a temple. The point made is that the kritis have a religious connotation, which is correct.
Post 24 is still more misguided. The song is on the deity in the first place.

[shankarank]

There is a difference between Deity and God of the West! You need to understand that first. Go ahead consume the kool-aid. Send your grand children for a PhD under Dr. Shulman. Yes he will be polite and he likes your culture and music no doubt.

[kvchellappa]

I hope you are not giving an adverse idea of India in USA.

[sureshvv]

Some people approach the interview like this. David S. is not an Indian. He can never understand how intricate Indian culture is. He has no right to talk about any aspects of Indian culture, let alone be considered an expert. He is also representative of the Imperial culture that "divide and rule"d us. So whatever he says has to be countered with arguments irrespective of how far fetched they may be.

Shankarank comes off as a prime example of this.

[shankarank]

You the open minded, instead of waiting for somebody else to post and then counter with one liners, should explain at least a little of what you understood that you didn't know before!

[sureshvv]

I understood David's perspective on CM and Indian Music. I understood that while it may not be identical to mine, it is just as valid. I understood that it is important to consider additional viewpoints rather than contradict every aspect of their understanding with some obscure pseudo facts,

There is 3 lines for you

[shankarank]

It cannot be just celebration of differences - which Indian people have done all through their existence. The fact that somebody notes that there is this textual content that is religious should raise red flags. You will have to go to their history ( since history is the basis of their arguments, it is fair game!) , to see why they even needed to create "othering" based on something called "religious". And why they talk of intolerance and tolerance - the latter by itself is offensive.

Their is an air of assumption that just because something is "religious" - which itself is wrong especially according to their definition of "religious" - that it is exclusive. And that it is also shown as being divisive.

It is they who are divisive! We certainly have to practice intolerance and divisiveness whenever things come up from their side. That is only fair!

Why should any Indian feel excluded because something is religious - even according to Christian theology! Let me ask you. The truth is they feel excluded and an aversion only because Christian theology caused the outsourcing of the sense of sacred to the Church!

An interaction between a Western classical music teacher and a student is as much sacred and has the same Guru Sishya bhava, as any of ours. But they have got this notion that sacredness belongs only in the Church or synagogue!

[shankarank]

I hope you are not giving an adverse idea of India in USA.

I don't have to give an adverse idea of India in U.S.A. Just few days back I encountered a discussion with an home repair man - who started asking whether I practice a faith. Then one god or many gods. As I mentioned I consider Jesus also as one of my preceptors, he continued asking can a teacher lie? Then next - do I believe in absolute truth? Complained about some blockades imposed by Govt. of India for a child that he is sponsoring.

I don't know why he has to sponsor a child 10000 mile around - when there are so many to be helped locally.

So the adverse idea of India is already there created by somebody else already.

[kvchellappa]

So, you are taking out your anger at not being able to correctly inform the repair man, on Shulman who will not know it anyway.

[kvchellappa]

Post 70:
All that is extraneous to the context.
The kritis are about a deity and god and are religious ipso facto. Shulman is not passing any value judgment about it. Exclusivity is something that lingers in your mind, being pious and always thinking about Krishna.

[kvchellappa]

How do we read a book or an article or review a performance?
Russell said that we will learn nothing if we read a book with a view to criticizing it. That very much applies to how we read an article or interview. A musician said that many reviews are not about the performance, but about what the performer must have done.
If we start giving a counterpoint or a dig at the author on what his view might have been on the issues not covered in the article or review, we are not doing justice.
We cannot presume a motive and attack the author on that score, or bring in his forebears and nail him on their supposed sins, like in the wolf and lamb story.
I do not think that one should go about explaining what one understood. We may enjoy a concert and cherish the moment without writing a review. It is not as though only those who write a review understood and enjoyed it. So with reading an article or interview.
We come in when there is an unfair comment, to get clarity. The end result may be misunderstanding as it happens.

[shankarank]

These padams are erotic padams, but either she, or her father, or her teacher—somebody—will get up and say, “Well, these look as if they were about eroticism and sexuality and stuff like that, but really it’s just a way of talking about God.” They’ll always go into this apologetic, which is a savage attack on the sensibility that produced these works.

Because the dads have been put in a hapless position of defending against mischief mongers. The Dravidian movement started by Caldwell and the Left have subverted the discourse. You the professor, are still exploiting the residual slave mentality of Indians. And we have to use the word: God!

First take off your abrahamic lens, and set aside your moral lessons, will you?

Leave it to us , on how we negotiate to live under the barbaric constitution , drawn from the French republic. We don't need your analysis.

Is this response sensible? Do we not comment on the west and their culture? Where is Abrahamic faith coming here? Compared to your language, Shulman has been very pointed and polite. How do you defend the padams which are explicitly erotic if they are 'wrong'? In fact, in 'Abrahamic lens', it is indefensible. Shulman is defending it in a very Indian sense.

No he is not. He reads it as apologetic because he is thinking of conceptions of "God" in the Abrahamic sense. If an Indian dad says that even unknowingly, referring to the deities in the temples as gods, the Indian dad is only removing the creepy sense of it, but not denying the beauty ( along with sacred) sense of it. Because the very sense of SrngAra is enshrined in the conception of deities. David Shulman is putting his meaning into the words of the dads.

It becomes a savage attack on the sensibility that produced the works , only when their sense of "God" is brought in.

[SrinathK]

Actually to a great extent, we Indians too have adopted this mindset - when we say bhakti bhava now, we only imply reverential devotion. Fundamentally bhakti is about approaching realization through emotion - therefore sakhya, vatsalya, and SringAra have all been used in the past. The abrahamic or puritanical conceptions of God however cannot fathom anything beyond reverence and obedience.

Pure emotion does not fit into any moralistic structure (hence the need to herd our emotions in real life). To describe the other rasas in spiritual terms (jiva and paramatma) isn't incorrect, but when people do that they usually reduce the whole experience into a more impersonal or morally acceptable frame - it's a rationalization of sorts. It takes the actual rasa out of the equation when it is actually the rasa flavour that makes a form of bhakti unique. Without rasa there is no bhakti.

India is the only place in the world that not only accepted these aspects of our human psyche, but found a way to sublimate them into art and then into an expression of spirituality (every other place in the world at the most managed to reach entertainment, but not enlightenment) -- instead of taking it out in real life where the consequences of unrestrained emotion are destructive.

[sureshvv]

To describe the other rasas in spiritual terms (jiva and paramatma) isn't incorrect, but when people do that they usually reduce the whole experience into a more impersonal or morally acceptable frame - it's a rationalization of sorts. It takes the actual rasa out of the equation when it is actually the rasa flavour that makes a form of bhakti unique.

Not sure I agree entirely. I agree that "jiva and paramatma" is an attempt to inject a morally acceptable frame and is a form of rationalization. But why do you feel it is impersonal or that the rasa has been taken out of the equation?

[SrinathK]

To describe the other rasas in spiritual terms (jiva and paramatma) isn't incorrect, but when people do that they usually reduce the whole experience into a more impersonal or morally acceptable frame - it's a rationalization of sorts. It takes the actual rasa out of the equation when it is actually the rasa flavour that makes a form of bhakti unique.

Not sure I agree entirely. I agree that "jiva and paramatma" is an attempt to inject a morally acceptable frame and is a form of rationalization. But why do you feel it is impersonal or that the rasa has been taken out of the equation?

Because in practice I see it used in an attempt to defend, rationalize or downplay the importance of the emotional colour, a means of distilling the impersonal from the personal -- but the concept itself is not wrong from a spiritual angle.

It is just to what extent certain emotional flavors are acceptable.

The nature and power of human emotion is the very reason why certain limiters are imposed on it. A mature awareness of this is better than just plain morality and embarrassment.

[kvchellappa]

Post 75: I cannot understand your vyakhyanam.

[RSR]

............

:

SringAra have all been used in the past."

..Yes. It was a blunder. and that is why we are gradually moving away from padams and javalis, however beautiful their music is. The solution is simple. Throw away their lyrivcs and make it instrumental only.
..I do not know about Islam if it has a concept of women devotees. But the Christian religion does revere women as saints. In Kerala, I have known great many respectable families dedicating their angelic daughters to Church service as nuns. We have the examples of Saradhamani of Ramakrishna mission. Even Nehru used to attend the spiritual sessions of Anandamayi Ma, in his later years. She was ever blissful! Which of our modern mystics like Paramahamsa , Shirdi Baba, Ramana Maharishi , Narayana Guru were householders? Actually, celibacy and conquering Lust , is so fundamental to Jainism and Buddhism and Hinduism which predate Christ by many centuries.
The puritanical conception about carnal love is , on a bit of reflection, absolutely correct. Gita lists kaamam, krodham, lobam and even moham (lust, hatred, avarice and attachment) as the four evils which make a person , falter from the righteous path.
We cannot change our gender or caste but we can dwell in the realm of divine bliss by constant thinking of the Almighty with awe, affection and adoration, by dedicating all our work for the welfare of society ( the manifestation of God) with devotion.
Sankara approached the issue from philosophical angle. Ramanuja, differentiated the self and paramathma but the best was given by Madhvacharya, who it is said, was very much influenced by the New Testament. That is why Purandaradasa sahithyams do not ask anything from the deity. . What is their to ask except make us steadfast in the path of justice and not swerve from the path of surrender / merger with the Supreme?
Smt MSS songs are worth chanting, singing everyday... 'dasanamadiko enne', 'jagathoddharana, kaliyugadali . nanege badavanu
Sush prayer with such music, ..What else do we want? எனக்குன்னிரு பதம் நினைக்க வரம் அருள்வாய். ஸ்ரீ ராமச்சந்திரா ! sang Arunachala KaviRayar.
What a far far cry from the music for music school, music for dance and music for fame and money!

[SrinathK]

............

:

SringAra have all been used in the past."

..Yes. It was a blunder. and that is why we are gradually moving away from padams and javalis, however beautiful their music is. The solution is simple. Throw away their lyrivcs and make it instrumental only.
..I do not know about Islam if it has a concept of women devotees. But the Christian religion does revere women as saints. In Kerala, I have known great many respectable families dedicating their angelic daughters to Church service as nuns. We have the examples of Saradhamani of Ramakrishna mission. Even Nehru used to attend the spiritual sessions of Anandamayi Ma, in his later years. She was ever blissful! Which of our modern mystics like Paramahamsa , Shirdi Baba, Ramana Maharishi , Narayana Guru were householders? Actually, celibacy and conquering Lust , is so fundamental to Jainism and Buddhism and Hinduism which predate Christ by many centuries.
The puritanical conception about carnal love is , on a bit of reflection, absolutely correct. Gita lists kaamam, krodham, lobam and even moham (lust, hatred, avarice and attachment) as the four evils which make a person , falter from the righteous path.
We cannot change our gender or caste but we can dwell in the realm of divine bliss by constant thinking of the Almighty with awe, affection and adoration, by dedicating all our work for the welfare of society ( the manifestation of God) with devotion.
Sankara approached the issue from philosophical angle. Ramanuja, differentiated the self and paramathma but the best was given by Madhvacharya, who it is said, was very much influenced by the New Testament. That is why Purandaradasa sahithyams do not ask anything from the deity. . What is their to ask except make us steadfast in the path of justice and not swerve from the path of surrender / merger with the Supreme?
Smt MSS songs are worth chanting, singing everyday... 'dasanamadiko enne', 'jagathoddharana, kaliyugadali . nanege badavanu
Sush prayer with such music, ..What else do we want? எனக்குன்னிரு பதம் நினைக்க வரம் அருள்வாய். ஸ்ரீ ராமச்சந்திரா ! sang Arunachala KaviRayar.
What a far far cry from the music for music school, music for dance and music for fame and money!

Your acceptance of Vaishnavaism then is very selective...

[RSR]

@81-> Yes. We are all selective in our preferences in any field. but my being selective does not exclude other paths if they are in tune with my perception. ( I prefer Periyaazhvaar to NammaLvar). ( vaathsalyam vs 'love')

[shankarank]

About the anthropologists , history centrists calling out lack of history in India, and the new myth makers.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2009/11 ... ndu-myths/

Ashoka "converted" to Buddhism goes the history! That itself is the Abrahamic view.

[shankarank]

@81-> Yes. We are all selective in our preferences in any field. but my being selective does not exclude other paths if they are in tune with my perception.

Everybody is in the universal truth business. Even Shaivism is not an exception. The professor claims he has explained Shaivism without Shiva and Shakti. So no faith or belief. Scientific!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuNUZp-0hfI

I like however , in one of those instances , he shows how King Rama was following Shaivism!

[shankarank]

I was once obliged to write a review of a Sriram Parthasarathy concert, never heard of him before that. It was very impressive, profound even, but an examination of the "song list" would not have indicated that. And there are rasikas to whom the whole concert would have bombed because it was not the A-list of songs. Pshaw. Here's what I wrote:

http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday ... 373989.ece

So is it because of choice of rAgam Mohanam? On the one side we had people crazy about Maharajapuram Santhanam singing Mohanam. After his passing (1992), in 1993 , may be in remembrance or so, on Mysore Vasudevachariar day at MA mini hall , TNS gave a scintillating recital of rA-rA-rAjiva lochana. The hall was full, and overflowing into the entrance lobby. We were all outside, there was a lone chair next to a pillar and I got to sit for a while. Then Sri NSG showed up. He couldn't get in and I offered my seat. Scintillating Brighas for yEra - and he kept pouring sangatis on that line.

I know Sri VV Ravi was on violin ( based on the Hindu announcement) as also he was replying to every kaNakku being dished out.

So people should not be fooled by song list when it comes to some artistes.

The famed Thyagaraja Vidvath samajam concert of KVN with UKS ( evarUra) should be a reminder for people on how Mohanam becomes weighty.

[kvchellappa]

Is anyone supreme in this forum and his choice crucial for others? Is there any final word on which 'ism' is supreme?

[RSR]

@84-> I read the article cited by you. ..pure poison. Myths are more important than the so called 'historical reality'.
There seems to be vast difference between Buddha and buddhists of later years. ( not all) Similarly Jain and jains ( again, not all)..The OP should read the article. and the book cited by him.

[kvchellappa]

The post is on CM.

[RSR]

The post is on CM.

Apparently so. Actually, the link was an invitation to the trolls to flog a dead horse. I suggest that posts avoid giving just a link . The forum is obsessed with so and so.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to the stories, Ravana was born to a brahmin and was a devout siva baktha.

[Pratyaksham Bala]

Parashurama (6th avatar of Vishnu) was a devout Shiva bhakta !
And, Parashurama built 108 Shiva temples in Kerala !

[Pratyaksham Bala]

What a drift !

[arasi]

Trolls, bores, sore at heart-s galore--
The door is ajar, who's to ask?
Kill a thread, a new one is born
Our not minding our manners a bit

All the philosophy spouted oft by
'Mightier than thou'. minds here--
Does it make them pause to think--
Culture comes with a heart first?

Ever stop growing flowers?
Tending not and relishing them
But wasting all the time instead
On soil analysis and fact finding?

A scavenger is a scavenger, yet, poor mods
The debris we leave for them to collect!

[kvchellappa]

The drift started in posts 3 and 4, pointed out by a knowledgeable rasika. 5 other rasikas seconded that observation. Another knowledgeable rasika also pointed out the irrelevance of such posts.
I am posting separately under 'Extraneous points in a thread' in Members's Lounge my views on the extraneous issues, as I did under Rasalila about Azhwars and gopikas that reared its head in an unrelated column.
I request that this thread be for discussing Shulman's views on CM. His point on CM and religion was in reply to a question. He is right that the kritis in CM (CM lays emphasis on kritis, though perhaps it need not) are in a religious context. No substantial point was made against this observation by the other digressor. Shulman hs not said whether it is good or bad. I enjoyed it that way, but I have no right to decide for others based on my experience.

[shankarank]

kvc, to discuss Shulman's views on CM, we need to understand the background of Shulman first. Then we also need to know what we mean by CM, its traditions and practice. With neither of this clarified, then the whole point of discussing his views on CM is just saying "yes" , "yes" - without even being clear whether we are agreeing with him even.

We are behaving as if we know nothing and he is teaching us!

[kvchellappa]

To understand your views, I must understand you first. How do I do that? By some imputations?

[sureshvv]

kvc, to discuss Shulman's views on CM, we need to understand the background of Shulman first.

Wrong! We need to learn to discuss views rather than discussing people.

We are behaving as if we know nothing and he is teaching us!

Just because you know something, that should not stop you from learning from anyone - even someone who knows less than you.

[shankarank]

kvc, to discuss Shulman's views on CM, we need to understand the background of Shulman first.

Wrong! We need to learn to discuss views rather than discussing people.

Because he speaks in English? Someone speaks English, then it is to be respected as a view expressed to be discussed as a view bereft of the viewer ( his perspective, background , his other works are irrelevant!). When he says , as kvc outs it, that kritis have a religious connotation whose view he is discussing. He is discussing people - us!

We are behaving as if we know nothing and he is teaching us!

Just because you know something, that should not stop you from learning from anyone - even someone who knows less than you.

It is not that he knows less. He knows a lot, but he knows it differently and plain wrong from my view.

[kvchellappa]

I guess no one understands him as you interpret and I do not get the sort of message you put out. Of course, I am dumb.
He is to the point in his replies and passes no judgment on us. He can be wrong and his views may be debatable, but that cannot be said based on things he has not said or his personality that is not established.
Going by your stand, I can never know the worth of your views as your personality is not known to me beyond the comments I choose to read.

[sureshvv]

Because he speaks in English? Someone speaks English, then it is to be respected as a view expressed to be discussed as a view bereft of the viewer

WTF? Aren't we all speaking in English? Or are you yelling at the screen in Tamil and Google is translating for you? That actually may explain a few things

It is not that he knows less. He knows a lot, but he knows it differently and plain wrong from my view.

You have not been able to verbalize what is "plain wrong" in a plain way. May be if you stopped attacking him and his tribe and focused on the view, you may have better luck.

He says "CM is composition centric and HM is not as much". If any local had said this, you would have let it go in a breeze. Just because his name happens to be David Shulman which happens to be Abrahamic, you are jumping up and down. Zero credibilty!

[RSR]

In my posts at 3 and 4, I have given my stand . My foremost concern is how to take CM to the lakhs of rural chidren in Tamilnad. and in due course, many of them will develop in mature years as very good musicians. . This can be done only by adding classical music as compulsory subject right from elementary school. The further point is that such songs should be in mother tongue. ,in Tamilnad , it should be in tamil. In Andhra and Telengana, it should be Telugu. In Karnataka, it should be kannada. and perhaps in Kerala, it can be malayalam / sanskrit songs.
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If we want to train our rural children in CM, from very young age, it should not be done in a language unknown to the children. So, no point in singing Dikshithar krithis to socially and culturally deprived people.
You could not have missed my appreciation of the method and work done by SPIC-MACOY and Vijay Siva.
Doing voluntary work is one aspect but the more effective method is by formal education from elementary school.
TN Govt is moving in the right direction.
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I have also pointed out many times, that CM is basically krithi oriented and right from the days of Purandaradasa( 1500), these krithis in kannada, telugu and sanskrit have been about vaishanavam. It is a statement of fact. As an exercise, one can go to the forum's vageyakar section and note the nearly 100 lyricists. and study the meaning of the songs. Mostly they will be about vaishanavam. or Devi.
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So, unless the children have a reverential attitude towards the common stories like Ramayanam, Mahabaratham and partly of Bagavathm, and also of Thevaram, Thiruvasakam, they cannot sing with bhaavam.
That is why I said, the preference is primarily vaishanavam and inclusive of other songs on Murugan, Vinayagar , Sakthi and finally Natarajar.
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There are some people who object to introducing religious themes into CM. But what are we to do with the thousands of CM krithis created over the last five centuries beginning from Purandaradasa?
So, my suggestion is switch over to INSTRUMENTAL music rather than vocal music.
It solves two problems, 1) wrong pronunciation and singing 2) avoiding erotic content.
For example, Kshethragaya Padams.( even there, it is about the God Krishna) Instead of condoning such singing as the author does, I am for discarding all the lyrics with such explicit vulgar themes. but adopt the music for instrumental rendering especially in violin, orchestration and nagaswaram.
post 4 is for appreciating the fact that many of the concerts in the BANGALORE festival were solo violin concerts!
and attended and appreciated by nearly 4000 in the audience.[/color]
(As an aside, I have total revulsion to so-called barathanatyam. with all that gaudy make up and gilt-edged jewels). No grace. I have seen how Gujarathi ladies perform group dance .( jothra) . 50% of all ANNAAMACHARYA krithiS are said to be on man-woman relation.
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I initiated another thread to place all the secular and non-film songs in tamil but I find that I have almost exhausted. though they were light classical tunes only. This is a pointer that 'secular' songs are very hard to come by in Tamil music outside the film world.
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The OP should read the article by his favorite author that Sri.Sankarank has given link to.
Perhaps he will change his perception.
Bye.